Alice Worth Series and Writing Urban Fantasy - Part 1

WEBVTT100:00:06.920 --> 00:00:08.710Hello, and welcome to myth makers.200:00:09.300 --> 00:00:13.750Myth makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives300:00:13.940 --> 00:00:18.670brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy. My name is Julia Golden.400:00:19.170 --> 00:00:21.820I'm an author, but also a director of the center.500:00:22.480 --> 00:00:26.420And today I am joined by a special guest from America,600:00:26.970 --> 00:00:28.460Lisa Edmonds,700:00:28.920 --> 00:00:33.660who is well best known to me for her Alice Worth's series.800:00:34.240 --> 00:00:36.660Now, before we talk about that, uh, Lisa,900:00:36.730 --> 00:00:41.530perhaps you might want to take us on your own personal story of your1000:00:41.530 --> 00:00:45.330journey to becoming an author. What happened before to get you to this point?1100:00:46.950 --> 00:00:50.490Um, well, Both my parents were librarians,1200:00:50.910 --> 00:00:54.210so I'll start with that. Um, and when both your parents were librarians,1300:00:54.270 --> 00:00:58.280you grow up in libraries, you read a ton. Yes. Um,1400:00:59.220 --> 00:01:03.880you, so from a very young age, um, my dad was also very nerdy,1500:01:04.180 --> 00:01:08.000so I grew up watching reruns of the original star Trek. Um,1600:01:08.340 --> 00:01:12.960so I grew up on science fiction and fantasy and mysteries, um,1700:01:13.070 --> 00:01:17.550started with Nancy drew <laugh>, uh, when I was little. Um,1800:01:17.650 --> 00:01:20.270and then in my teen years, I, um,1900:01:20.270 --> 00:01:24.910kind of graduated to cozy mysteries and hard boil detective fiction.2000:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.870Um, and I especially really loved, uh, private investigator. Uh,2100:01:29.870 --> 00:01:34.380but I also read a lot of, uh, police procedurals, like ed McBain. Um,2200:01:34.380 --> 00:01:38.900so I was reading a lot of Sue Grafton, um, who wrote the alphabet mysteries.2300:01:39.300 --> 00:01:44.220I know that's a little bit out of the purview of myth makers, but, um, and, uh,2400:01:44.710 --> 00:01:47.860Sarah Persky who wrote the VI Warshawsky books, um,2500:01:47.870 --> 00:01:51.100there was a movie maker of that. Um,2600:01:51.440 --> 00:01:54.690so I just kind of read a lot of genre fiction. Um,2700:01:55.410 --> 00:02:00.370I kind of envisioned myself writing really science fiction. Um,2800:02:00.790 --> 00:02:04.810so it was a bit of a surprise, um, that I started writing urban fantasy, but,2900:02:05.310 --> 00:02:09.370um, I discovered the genre through Kim Harrison's books. Um,3000:02:09.670 --> 00:02:12.600the Rachel Morgan Hollow's books,3100:02:12.940 --> 00:02:15.640and it was sort of like a gateway drug <laugh>. Um,3200:02:16.530 --> 00:02:18.960after that I just started reading every urban fantasy series.3300:02:19.080 --> 00:02:20.600I could get my hands on, um,3400:02:20.600 --> 00:02:25.120and it was like the perfect melding of the science fiction, the fantasy,3500:02:26.300 --> 00:02:28.720um, and the mysteries, um,3600:02:28.720 --> 00:02:32.630because every book in an urban fantasy tends to have some kind of mystery to3700:02:32.630 --> 00:02:35.910solve, you know, what kind of creature is this who's causing all this, this,3800:02:35.910 --> 00:02:37.670this disruption. Um,3900:02:38.090 --> 00:02:42.470and then you have these wonderful characters that, you know,4000:02:42.470 --> 00:02:47.070the typical urban fantasy heroin has a lot of snark. Um,4100:02:47.730 --> 00:02:52.580you know, she's a, she tends to be a self rescuing princess, which is, um,4200:02:52.730 --> 00:02:55.340also a great, um, you know,4300:02:55.340 --> 00:02:59.100creates great storylines and I just love imagination.4400:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.640So I love the world building. So, um, all that kind of came together and,4500:03:04.020 --> 00:03:05.520uh, a couple of years ago, I guess, well,4600:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.040it's been more than a couple of years ago now, but, uh, back in about 2015,4700:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.200I thought, you know, well, maybe I could try my hand at this. Um, so I,4800:03:14.260 --> 00:03:14.600you know,4900:03:14.600 --> 00:03:19.270developed a character and a world and yeah,5000:03:19.270 --> 00:03:20.430and that's how it all got started.5100:03:21.610 --> 00:03:26.470Did your journey on the way include the JD Rob stories? Cuz they were one of my,5200:03:26.850 --> 00:03:30.790uh, entryway into that kind of sci-fi police procedural.5300:03:31.300 --> 00:03:32.510I've been following it all the way.5400:03:32.510 --> 00:03:34.990Cause I think she started writing those in the nineties. Didn't she?5500:03:34.990 --> 00:03:35.740Mm-hmm <affirmative>.5600:03:35.740 --> 00:03:37.100Yeah, I's been around a really long time.5700:03:38.000 --> 00:03:42.060Not running series, but that was the thing that showed me, um,5800:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.540the way that you could mash up genres of something which was familiar, you know,5900:03:47.540 --> 00:03:49.980contemporary police procedurals, and then,6000:03:49.980 --> 00:03:51.700but then put it 50 years in the future.6100:03:52.700 --> 00:03:57.090I think the only where catching up aren't we with the historical period she's6200:03:57.090 --> 00:03:57.923chosen.6300:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.690Well, and I also really like the Scandinavian, um,6400:04:01.760 --> 00:04:06.250sort of psychological thriller mysteries as well. Um,6500:04:06.250 --> 00:04:11.010like the Hening man ankle series. Okay. And um, oh gosh, uh, the Kenneth brag,6600:04:11.010 --> 00:04:13.880they turned it into a TV series, Kenneth Brown, um,6700:04:14.140 --> 00:04:17.160and a bunch of other like the there's just nobody that does that. Dark,6800:04:17.710 --> 00:04:22.400psychological really twisted <laugh>, um,6900:04:22.590 --> 00:04:26.480mysteries like Norwegian and Swedish, um, and Danish authors.7000:04:26.620 --> 00:04:30.880So I feel like my series is like an amalgamation of all of that.7100:04:31.420 --> 00:04:36.110Um, Atlas is a little, um, a little bit Kinsey Milone who is,7200:04:36.530 --> 00:04:40.910uh, Sue Grafton's, uh, PI and a little bit via Warshawsky. Uh,7300:04:40.910 --> 00:04:44.590but then also, um, influenced by, you know,7400:04:44.650 --> 00:04:49.550all the fantasy and all of the, um, the mysteries and of,7500:04:49.550 --> 00:04:49.870you know,7600:04:49.870 --> 00:04:54.860sort of across all the sub genres sort of all <laugh> put together in one body.7700:04:55.890 --> 00:05:00.220Yeah. Talking had this, um, thing he wrote about the Coldron of stories,7800:05:00.520 --> 00:05:04.540the idea that all these other elements from everything you've read and the7900:05:04.540 --> 00:05:08.180traditions have go into this and then you label out your own version of it.8000:05:09.110 --> 00:05:12.970And then of course I would say Alice is definitely her own character. You know,8100:05:12.970 --> 00:05:16.570she may have had these seeds in her origins, but I love her as, uh,8200:05:16.950 --> 00:05:18.810the character she's grown to be.8300:05:19.590 --> 00:05:23.450So looking at the Alice worst series, um,8400:05:23.450 --> 00:05:28.440for those who haven't yet read it and I'm stressing the yet <laugh>8500:05:28.860 --> 00:05:30.560uh, it's in the urban fantasy genre.8600:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.320Would you like to give us a little kind of taste of what they will find8700:05:35.380 --> 00:05:36.720if they start reading the series?8800:05:37.710 --> 00:05:42.600Sure. Um, you know, uh, my particular world is sort of it's,8900:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.310it's very similar Alice's world is very similar to our own, uh,9000:05:46.310 --> 00:05:48.430with the addition of, you know,9100:05:48.430 --> 00:05:52.190supernatural and paranormal creatures and beings. Um,9200:05:52.190 --> 00:05:56.430so there are shifters and vampires and Googles, um, and things like that.9300:05:56.490 --> 00:06:00.600And so I, I like, uh,9400:06:00.620 --> 00:06:05.360my preference on urban fantasy is like our, um, like our world,9500:06:05.980 --> 00:06:09.280but with these interesting twists, um, excuse me,9600:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.720I also enjoy urban fantasy that steps much farther away from our own world,9700:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.990like, um, a bishops, the others series, which is very, very different.9800:06:17.770 --> 00:06:21.750Um, so I sort of imagined, um,9900:06:22.020 --> 00:06:26.630what would have to change in our world. Um, if we suddenly,10000:06:26.930 --> 00:06:30.230you know, had these creatures walking among us. And so I envisioned like, well,10100:06:30.230 --> 00:06:34.700there would have to be like a federal agency dedicated to sort of tracking,10200:06:34.700 --> 00:06:38.020monitoring and serving as law enforcement, um,10300:06:38.640 --> 00:06:43.420who are set up for interactions with creatures that aren't human don't think10400:06:43.450 --> 00:06:47.820like humans and aren't, um, vulnerable to the same things that we are.10500:06:48.880 --> 00:06:51.460Um, and then sort of just, it, it sort of grew from there. Um,10600:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.890so Alice herself is, uh, a ma so she has magic.10700:06:55.030 --> 00:06:59.570She has what I call natural magic. So, um, uh,10800:06:59.750 --> 00:07:01.930air and earth magic, um,10900:07:02.550 --> 00:07:06.570as well as a few other abilities that kind of develop throughout the series. Um,11000:07:06.910 --> 00:07:09.650and she is a private investigator in my world. Um,11100:07:09.810 --> 00:07:11.920a ma private investigator spec, uh,11200:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.440sort of specializes in supernatural and paranormal type mysteries and almost all11300:07:16.440 --> 00:07:21.160of her cases involve solving a supernatural related mystery.11400:07:22.740 --> 00:07:27.400Um, she has a ghost sidekick <laugh> um, Malcolm, his name is Malcolm,11500:07:27.570 --> 00:07:31.910right? <laugh> yeah, his name is Malcolm. Um, he is, I mean, he calls,11600:07:32.010 --> 00:07:35.550he calls himself the comic relief in the partnership. Um, you know,11700:07:35.550 --> 00:07:39.830he's a lot of fun. Um, he tends to be a crowd favorite. Um,11800:07:40.530 --> 00:07:41.590and, but.11900:07:42.290 --> 00:07:44.030In some ways he's her anchor.12000:07:44.180 --> 00:07:48.780Like he's the one who very much sort of the conscience in some12100:07:48.950 --> 00:07:51.420cases, isn't he, he corrects.12200:07:51.610 --> 00:07:54.220Yeah. You do always see him doing cuz Alice had the,12300:07:54.220 --> 00:07:58.060had a really not to spoil anything, but she had a very difficult and uh,12400:07:58.060 --> 00:08:00.300traumatic childhood and upbringing.12500:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.340And so there are a lot of times where her reactions are very much shaped by12600:08:05.960 --> 00:08:10.450her past and Malcolm in some and a few other characters12700:08:11.080 --> 00:08:15.930come in as like her Gemini cricket. And I was sort of like Alice <laugh>,12800:08:16.350 --> 00:08:18.410you know, think about this a little bit. Um,12900:08:18.670 --> 00:08:22.250and you see her changing over the course of the books, um,13000:08:22.270 --> 00:08:26.200and adjusting and you know, becoming a little bit more, well,13100:08:26.220 --> 00:08:28.320she calls it a little bit more human, um,13200:08:29.400 --> 00:08:31.200learning how to interact with others and how to love,13300:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.480how to love others and care for others and how to let them care and love her.13400:08:36.420 --> 00:08:39.280Um, which is a difficult journey for her, you know,13500:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.800considering she didn't really have that growing up. Um,13600:08:41.800 --> 00:08:45.310so each book they're not, they're not designed to be read, um,13700:08:45.770 --> 00:08:49.430as standalones, each book contains its own story, its own mystery,13800:08:49.430 --> 00:08:52.070but there are overarching stories. There's a,13900:08:52.070 --> 00:08:55.680there's a major antagonist that everything is sort of building up to her,14000:08:55.680 --> 00:08:57.960dealing with there's storylines that run throughout each book.14100:08:58.380 --> 00:09:02.440So although each book has a self-contained mystery for her to solve because14200:09:02.440 --> 00:09:07.440she's a PI, um, you would wanna probably start with one <laugh> and then,14300:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.400uh, go forward. It's not, you know, not really designed to be read out of order.14400:09:12.710 --> 00:09:15.230Yeah. She's also in, I wouldn't call it a love triangle.14500:09:15.230 --> 00:09:17.350That's the wrong word because there's another side to it,14600:09:17.350 --> 00:09:21.630but she's sort of in the middle of pools between a shifter,14700:09:22.250 --> 00:09:26.830um, friend, a very close friend mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, lover,14800:09:27.610 --> 00:09:32.540but also somebody within the vampire community who is very interested in14900:09:32.540 --> 00:09:36.140her, but also the major community. So I there's three points. It's not really.15000:09:36.310 --> 00:09:40.180Right. And then in the federal agency, you know, a federal agent as well, well,15100:09:40.180 --> 00:09:44.100there we go. Um, it's, you know, there's,15200:09:44.100 --> 00:09:46.940there's definitely a romance angle to it as there is with a lot of urban15300:09:46.940 --> 00:09:49.740fantasy, but I, you know, I definitely wanted,15400:09:50.100 --> 00:09:54.650I didn't want to get into the love triangle thing, um, uh,15500:09:54.830 --> 00:09:58.790too much, but there definitely is a little bit of, um,15600:09:58.890 --> 00:10:02.320what's the word like there, there's a, uh,15700:10:02.320 --> 00:10:07.080like she's trying to find the person who like, uh, you know,15800:10:07.180 --> 00:10:10.550who completes her, who supports her, who compliments her,15900:10:10.550 --> 00:10:15.470that's the word I was like for who compliments her the best. Um, and you know,16000:10:15.470 --> 00:10:19.230there's a lot of power plays going on too, as you know,16100:10:19.230 --> 00:10:23.870as you would expect with any, any time that you have, um, you know, you have a,16200:10:23.870 --> 00:10:26.350like the vampires they've been, they have hundreds of years old,16300:10:26.350 --> 00:10:28.900they they're all about the power. They're all about the,16400:10:29.530 --> 00:10:32.460what can somebody do for me? What benefits me. Um,16500:10:32.640 --> 00:10:34.780and that's not necessarily the type,16600:10:34.880 --> 00:10:38.260the type of partnership relationship, uh,16700:10:38.260 --> 00:10:40.260that someone like Atlas would be interested in.16800:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.820So I think what I was most interested in is exploring power dynamics in16900:10:45.740 --> 00:10:48.530personal relationships and, you know,17000:10:49.480 --> 00:10:54.410letting Alice sort of figure out what's the healthiest type of relationship to17100:10:54.410 --> 00:10:55.450be in. Yeah. Um,17200:10:56.430 --> 00:11:00.970one trope in urban fantasy and paranormal romance that17300:11:02.150 --> 00:11:07.000I'm less of a fan of is the ones where you have a, um, a real,17400:11:07.190 --> 00:11:11.400like difference in power and you have one partner asserting that dominance over17500:11:11.400 --> 00:11:16.240the other. Um, I mean, I think there's room in any genre for all kinds of,17600:11:17.440 --> 00:11:22.060you know, types of relationships, but I definitely wanted to focus on a more,17700:11:22.140 --> 00:11:23.740a healthier type of relationship.17800:11:23.800 --> 00:11:27.090So I think that is an exploration of what's a healthy relationship.17900:11:27.090 --> 00:11:31.880What's going to be mutually beneficial. Um, what love really is,18000:11:32.460 --> 00:11:35.480um, as opposed to what can this person do for me?18100:11:35.620 --> 00:11:39.980How can they advance my, my goals? You know,18200:11:39.980 --> 00:11:43.350which isn't to me a healthy relationship.18300:11:44.340 --> 00:11:49.270Yeah. And because you've got a long series that you are working on,18400:11:49.500 --> 00:11:50.630that the, for example,18500:11:50.810 --> 00:11:55.600the main central relationship with Sean does become more and more important18600:11:55.780 --> 00:12:00.400to the reader as you go on. And I, I found it really gutting in,18700:12:00.600 --> 00:12:04.720I think it's, um, shadows, uh, where18800:12:06.730 --> 00:12:07.510she loses.18900:12:07.510 --> 00:12:10.710I think it's not too much a spoiled to say that she's Casa loses her memory.19000:12:10.710 --> 00:12:12.700I think it's in the blurb. So I'm allowed to say that.19100:12:13.290 --> 00:12:14.123Yeah, it's on.19200:12:14.850 --> 00:12:19.380Yeah. So it's a, a reset of her relationship with Sean, but it's,19300:12:19.380 --> 00:12:23.340it is absolutely, it's just terrible to see her. No,19400:12:23.340 --> 00:12:25.500you can't forget all these things. You've had, you know, the,19500:12:25.560 --> 00:12:27.140the reader is really involved in that.19600:12:27.220 --> 00:12:31.250I thought that was a very good thing to do to a relationship from a craft point19700:12:31.250 --> 00:12:34.250of view in the middle of what I might otherwise be.19800:12:35.430 --> 00:12:38.570And they lived happily ever after, you know, right. Keep,19900:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.930keep putting the grit in the relationship so that it can move on and become20000:12:43.170 --> 00:12:44.730actually even deeper as a result.20100:12:45.870 --> 00:12:49.850And they, um, you know, they have a lot of ups and downs, um, you know,20200:12:50.020 --> 00:12:54.240as they both kind of adjust to the relationship and, you know,20300:12:54.270 --> 00:12:58.040Sean has always wanted, um, and you know,20400:12:58.040 --> 00:13:01.280he very much did believe and does believe he wanted an equal,20500:13:01.470 --> 00:13:04.320he's not wanting what the rest of the pack wants him to have,20600:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.670which is a very submissive, um, uh, <affirmative>, uh,20700:13:09.100 --> 00:13:11.710mate partner, you know, who's going to just follow orders.20800:13:11.770 --> 00:13:14.470He wanted someone to stand beside him. Um,20900:13:14.850 --> 00:13:16.550but that's all well and good in theory,21000:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.430until he does get someone who wants to either stand in front of him or,21100:13:20.430 --> 00:13:22.430or stand beside him or stand in front of him. Um,21200:13:22.430 --> 00:13:25.990and then he's got to try to figure out, you know, exactly what that means. Um,21300:13:26.650 --> 00:13:31.180you know, and Alice isn't ever going to be anybody's, um, you know, he's,21400:13:31.180 --> 00:13:34.900she's not gonna be bossed around, um, too, so there's a lot of dynamics there.21500:13:35.560 --> 00:13:37.260Uh, so you have to put your relat, you know, your,21600:13:37.370 --> 00:13:40.740your relationship through some ups and downs and, and, uh,21700:13:40.790 --> 00:13:44.660cause I think that's realistic. You know, I don't know any relationship,21800:13:44.790 --> 00:13:47.730that's all sunshine and roses, you know, from day one,21900:13:47.730 --> 00:13:52.090you're gonna run into problems. You're gonna run into differences of,22000:13:52.150 --> 00:13:56.170of opinion. Um, especially when you have two people who have, you know,22100:13:56.230 --> 00:14:01.090are so kind of set in their ways, you know, so above all,22200:14:01.130 --> 00:14:05.160I wanted it to be a realistic series, like series, you know,22300:14:05.160 --> 00:14:09.720I want my heroin to be relatable. Um, and, um,22400:14:10.110 --> 00:14:14.120realistic. I want the relationships, the, the mysteries, the drama,22500:14:14.340 --> 00:14:19.080it all to feel like all things that make sense, all things that are relatable,22600:14:19.310 --> 00:14:20.560even though it's, you know,22700:14:20.560 --> 00:14:22.910there's magic and all sorts of other creatures around, like,22800:14:22.910 --> 00:14:24.830I still want people to, to read it and feel like, yeah,22900:14:24.830 --> 00:14:26.150this is something that would really happen.23000:14:27.370 --> 00:14:30.270And just to, uh, help people find these books, the,23100:14:30.290 --> 00:14:34.870the title sequence is heart of, so heart of matters and so on.23200:14:34.890 --> 00:14:38.310And so when I say shadows, I'm referring to the book called heart of shadows.23300:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.380Just if you're looking, if you're Googling it now, that's how define them.23400:14:42.650 --> 00:14:44.260It's a, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.23500:14:44.780 --> 00:14:47.700I was going to ask you, um, when you write,23600:14:48.560 --> 00:14:52.280so I'm now gonna actually sort of ask you to think about the process. Do you,23700:14:52.340 --> 00:14:54.480you said there's a, like a long arc you've been working on,23800:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.040is this something that you sat down and sketched out?23900:14:57.060 --> 00:15:01.960So in a drawer there's the entire plot of the entire series is24000:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.720written down or are you someone who, um, is a discovery writer?24100:15:05.900 --> 00:15:10.390You may have a vague idea, but you write into the dark. How do you approach it?24200:15:11.010 --> 00:15:14.390Ooh, annoying answer. A little of both. <laugh> um,24300:15:14.870 --> 00:15:19.070I definitely sketched it out cuz I was planning a long series. Um,24400:15:19.210 --> 00:15:23.710the current plan is 12 books. Um, it, it went from 10 to 12. Um,24500:15:23.730 --> 00:15:27.950had to do a little bit of growth because that's the discovery part. Um,24600:15:28.090 --> 00:15:32.620you can plan all you want, but characters for me are, are living,24700:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.140living things. And so they will do and say things that I didn't see coming.24800:15:37.880 --> 00:15:38.700And then you have to,24900:15:38.700 --> 00:15:43.500you have to work with that <laugh> so I definitely sketched out kind of the25000:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.780arc. Um, I have definite plans for like,25100:15:46.850 --> 00:15:50.650what's the gonna be the mystery going to be in each book. Um,25200:15:50.650 --> 00:15:55.210and then how is that gonna relate to, um, I kind of have the, the,25300:15:55.490 --> 00:16:00.410I guess three main over, um, overarching plot lines, you know, the deal, the,25400:16:00.410 --> 00:16:03.010the conflict with the main antagonist, um,25500:16:03.680 --> 00:16:08.480Alice's personal development and growth and then her relat her personal25600:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.960relationship. Um, yeah, so.25700:16:11.910 --> 00:16:12.743Yeah,25800:16:13.060 --> 00:16:17.440the family she built the route around her is it becomes a kind of story in25900:16:17.440 --> 00:16:22.360itself who, who becomes part of that? The cl her, her ma family, not.26000:16:25.170 --> 00:16:27.310The born family is a problem. <laugh> yeah.26100:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.070Yeah. So yeah, a problem. So, um,26200:16:31.660 --> 00:16:35.310when you set out, I dunno, if you can remember what it was like to think it up,26300:16:35.450 --> 00:16:38.390did you start with Alice as your character or did you come,26400:16:38.740 --> 00:16:42.860come up with the situation and then think who's the character to carry the26500:16:42.860 --> 00:16:43.693story?26600:16:44.290 --> 00:16:47.140Well, um, it's kind of, it's an interesting, um,26700:16:47.140 --> 00:16:51.500and I do remember actually I remember the moment it happened. Um, in fact, um,26800:16:51.700 --> 00:16:52.900I was sitting out on my porch,26900:16:53.020 --> 00:16:55.780I have this lovely screen porch overlook over her and I was sitting out there27000:16:55.920 --> 00:16:59.340and a sentence popped into my head. Um,27100:16:59.400 --> 00:17:03.770and it ended up being the first sentence of the blurb of heart of malice, um,27200:17:03.770 --> 00:17:06.610or what would become heart of malice, which was, um,27300:17:06.670 --> 00:17:10.090the first time Moses Murphy's granddaughter killed on his orders.27400:17:10.390 --> 00:17:15.370She was six years old. That sentence popped into my head.27500:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.800Um, you know, some people say call it the call it a muse, some P I don't,27600:17:19.800 --> 00:17:23.000you know, it just, it just, it, that sentence fully formed popped into my head.27700:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.360So I actually met Moses before I met Alice.27800:17:28.180 --> 00:17:30.000Um, because in that sentence,27900:17:30.520 --> 00:17:35.080I sort of imagining who he was and then who his granddaughter would be.28000:17:35.140 --> 00:17:36.800And it sort of, it just grew out of that.28100:17:37.120 --> 00:17:40.590I envisioned Alice as the granddaughter and then the whole,28200:17:42.090 --> 00:17:45.310the whole setup just sort of grew out of that moment. Um,28300:17:45.570 --> 00:17:47.350it was a very magical moment. <laugh>.28400:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.070Absolutely. And also looking at your biography,28500:17:52.850 --> 00:17:57.390you have a background in forensic criminology,28600:17:57.390 --> 00:18:01.230which seems to me to connect to the private eye story. Would I be,28700:18:01.370 --> 00:18:03.190cuz there's quite a lot of detail, um,28800:18:03.450 --> 00:18:08.100in a fantasy form of like tracing and um,28900:18:08.310 --> 00:18:09.580uncovering crimes.29000:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.620Is that something that you've picked up from your reading of real world29100:18:14.130 --> 00:18:14.963criminology?29200:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.500Oh, definitely. I mean, I think it comes the, the,29300:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.740the college courses were an outgrowth of my lifelong fascination with mysteries.29400:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.210Um, part like not just putting the clues together,29500:18:27.210 --> 00:18:29.650which I personally find amazing. Um,29600:18:29.650 --> 00:18:33.410and Alice is living my dream life as a private investigator. Um,29700:18:34.030 --> 00:18:34.970but as an undergrad,29800:18:35.170 --> 00:18:39.890I was really seriously interested in pursuing criminal29900:18:39.890 --> 00:18:42.330profiling, um, as a career. Um,30000:18:42.410 --> 00:18:46.160I would've liked to have gone to work for the FBI, um, and,30100:18:46.900 --> 00:18:51.240and done that. And so I took a lot of, um, criminal justice courses,30200:18:51.700 --> 00:18:53.720uh, as an undergrad and of course I was an English major.30300:18:54.180 --> 00:18:57.800So the instructors always thought I had accidentally enrolled in the wrong30400:18:57.800 --> 00:18:59.120class, uh,30500:18:59.120 --> 00:19:01.720because they would be looking down their rosters and they would be a hundred30600:19:01.960 --> 00:19:06.870criminal justice majors and then me the English major. Um, um, but I had,30700:19:06.950 --> 00:19:08.830I was lucky enough to take courses with, um,30800:19:08.970 --> 00:19:13.790all instructors who were actual former or current law enforcement and,30900:19:14.170 --> 00:19:18.830um, a couple of courses with an actual practicing forensic psychologist, um,31000:19:18.830 --> 00:19:23.340whose job it is to go to prisons and secure wards and talk to31100:19:24.930 --> 00:19:29.580talk to serial killers and talk to, you know, uh, all kinds of, of people.31200:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.820And so I, I got to absorb all of that real world knowledge, um,31300:19:33.820 --> 00:19:37.700through courses like death investigation and serial killers and, uh,31400:19:37.940 --> 00:19:41.970forensic CRI or forensic psychology. And I, you know,31500:19:41.970 --> 00:19:44.050I ended up not going that route professionally,31600:19:44.950 --> 00:19:49.290mainly because as a very empathetic person, I thought it will be,31700:19:50.310 --> 00:19:53.210it will be too difficult day in and day out, uh,31800:19:53.210 --> 00:19:56.570particularly to interact with, um, you know,31900:19:56.570 --> 00:20:00.120family members of people who, you know, who lost their lives.32000:20:00.280 --> 00:20:04.000I just thought that would take too much of a, a toll on me personally. Um,32100:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.760but it re it remains a real fascination. Um, and so I feel like, um, I,32200:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.360I definitely wanna use that, you know,32300:20:11.360 --> 00:20:14.800in the investigations as Alice's not just following physical clues,32400:20:14.800 --> 00:20:19.750but trying to figure out motivations and understanding, not just the,32500:20:19.770 --> 00:20:21.710how, um, and the, when,32600:20:21.710 --> 00:20:25.700but the why of why people do the things they do.32700:20:25.700 --> 00:20:29.900Because I think that's a fundamental question that we all ask ourselves. Um,32800:20:30.100 --> 00:20:34.980whenever we read about any, any particular case, um, is why did this happen?32900:20:35.800 --> 00:20:40.170Um, what was this person's motivation? So I want that to be, you know,33000:20:40.170 --> 00:20:42.010sort of at the forefront of the stories as well.33100:20:43.330 --> 00:20:44.210I mean, hopefully most,33200:20:44.400 --> 00:20:49.280most people are fortunate enough not to experience this in their33300:20:49.460 --> 00:20:51.640own lives. I mean, we all know it's a possibility,33400:20:51.860 --> 00:20:54.720but whilst when you don't have it,33500:20:54.940 --> 00:20:59.760you can have a certain comfort blanket around you that it's happens to33600:20:59.760 --> 00:21:03.240other people, whereas you are writing a character to whom it has happened.33700:21:03.980 --> 00:21:08.670Do you find it a difficult place to go when you are writing Alice33800:21:09.050 --> 00:21:13.030and her traumatic backgrounds? Um.33900:21:13.330 --> 00:21:17.430Yes, I really do. Um, I struggle particularly in,34000:21:17.430 --> 00:21:21.870during the writing of shadows, I will say. Um, because that is, uh, to me,34100:21:21.930 --> 00:21:23.830the darkest of the books, you know,34200:21:24.100 --> 00:21:27.940a lot happens to her a lot happens that kind of, um,34300:21:29.280 --> 00:21:33.660you know, uh, calls back to mind, you know, what she went through, you know,34400:21:33.660 --> 00:21:38.500during her childhood, as she was growing up, um, after her escape. Um,34500:21:38.840 --> 00:21:40.540and while she's been in hiding, um,34600:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.970not just the darkness of the people that she has to interact with, uh,34700:21:43.990 --> 00:21:47.850in that book, which are, you know, sort of the, the darkest. Um,34800:21:50.190 --> 00:21:54.690but I feel like I, on the one hand, I like, I like tapping into those,34900:21:55.970 --> 00:21:59.560those, um, again, it's about relatability, right? And it's a,35000:21:59.560 --> 00:22:02.310like tapping into fears that I think a lot of us have, uh,35100:22:02.310 --> 00:22:03.470that feeling of helplessness,35200:22:03.500 --> 00:22:08.430that feeling of wanting to help and protect those around us and not always35300:22:08.430 --> 00:22:10.750being able to do that. Um,35400:22:11.330 --> 00:22:14.790and I think that's a lot of what Atlas has to go through. Um, you know,35500:22:15.050 --> 00:22:17.550and especially like at the end of heart of malice, you know,35600:22:17.550 --> 00:22:19.980that I won't spoil anything, but, you know,35700:22:19.980 --> 00:22:24.100the end of that book carries over into the next book because she's struggling35800:22:24.530 --> 00:22:28.420with what she witnessed and ha and was a, uh, was a part of,35900:22:29.120 --> 00:22:32.220and that's another thing I wanted Alice to be in terms of relatability.36000:22:32.500 --> 00:22:36.380I I've read some series where the main character goes through really difficult.36100:22:37.330 --> 00:22:40.970Like she loses someone or she goes through a really traumatic event. And then,36200:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.690because she's a strong character, you know,36300:22:43.710 --> 00:22:45.930she just goes on as if it doesn't bother her.36400:22:45.990 --> 00:22:50.940And that really bugged me cuz I that's not how, that's not how we, we,36500:22:50.940 --> 00:22:52.980we operate as human beings. Like we can't,36600:22:52.980 --> 00:22:56.100we don't brush things off that easily. So, you know,36700:22:56.100 --> 00:22:59.730when Alice goes through something, you know, it's, you still see the,36800:23:00.510 --> 00:23:03.410the ripple effect, not just in that book,36900:23:03.410 --> 00:23:06.050but even in subsequent books as she's trying to deal with it.37000:23:07.190 --> 00:23:10.930So yeah, also, also in shadows, you, um,37100:23:10.930 --> 00:23:13.010depart from your usual more, um,37200:23:14.130 --> 00:23:18.200straightforward timeline orientated plot structure, and you break it up,37300:23:18.980 --> 00:23:23.080uh, in order to, I suppose it gets a sense of the disorientation,37400:23:23.080 --> 00:23:26.520but also it's a way of telling a really difficult story because you have other37500:23:26.520 --> 00:23:30.280moments where it's before this is, you know, the,37600:23:31.020 --> 00:23:32.560you don't have a, like unrelenting,37700:23:32.560 --> 00:23:35.630big slab of negativity sitting in the middle,37800:23:35.630 --> 00:23:39.030which would've been the alternative. Yeah.37900:23:39.330 --> 00:23:41.830And, you know, from an author's standpoint, you know,38000:23:41.830 --> 00:23:46.320that book was a challenge to write, um, because it was, um,38100:23:46.540 --> 00:23:50.720the first one I wrote where the point of view changes depending on,38200:23:50.740 --> 00:23:53.240but switches this back and forth between the two main characters,38300:23:53.910 --> 00:23:57.760because really that's, as I was planning out the book, I was like,38400:23:57.760 --> 00:24:01.960that's the only thing that makes sense to tell the story is to have38500:24:02.510 --> 00:24:04.190part of the book told by Sean.38600:24:04.450 --> 00:24:07.270And part of it told by Alice because of what's going on.38700:24:07.770 --> 00:24:10.910And then it didn't really work very well when I was planning it out to,38800:24:11.010 --> 00:24:15.310to tell it simply in a linear timeline, um,38900:24:15.340 --> 00:24:16.870because of the things that happened.39000:24:17.050 --> 00:24:21.980So I felt like the way I put it together made the most sense to me.39100:24:22.360 --> 00:24:26.980Um, and, and I tried to be very clear with headings and so forth,39200:24:27.050 --> 00:24:31.820like where we were in the timeline and you know, who was telling the story and,39300:24:31.920 --> 00:24:32.660and so forth.39400:24:32.660 --> 00:24:36.340I really honestly don't think it would've worked very well if I had just told it39500:24:37.510 --> 00:24:42.220linearly. Um, and only from Alice's point of view. So, you know,39600:24:42.360 --> 00:24:45.780and it's good as it matter, you wanna stretch, you know, you wanna stretch, um,39700:24:46.180 --> 00:24:50.580yourself from time to time and challenge yourself and I'd already written in39800:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.940Sean's head, um,39900:24:51.940 --> 00:24:56.220because there's a Nove called just for one night that retails part of heart of40000:24:56.220 --> 00:24:57.860malice from Sean's point of view.40100:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.970So I wanted to kind of continue with that and, um, tell,40200:25:03.040 --> 00:25:05.810tell part of that story from Sean's perspective,40300:25:06.070 --> 00:25:09.610as he's also going through the difficulty of,40400:25:11.070 --> 00:25:15.650you know, start almost, almost starting over, um, with Alice, um,40500:25:15.650 --> 00:25:17.560and you know, trying to help her.40600:25:17.820 --> 00:25:21.960And I also felt like his impressions of who she was40700:25:23.580 --> 00:25:28.400in this particular situation, without all those traumatic memories, uh,40800:25:28.430 --> 00:25:30.480shaping how she thinks and reacts.40900:25:30.800 --> 00:25:34.880I wanted to also get that perspective across like how he's reacting to this41000:25:35.070 --> 00:25:36.190version of Alice.41100:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.310Thank you for listening to part one of this week's podcast.41200:25:44.180 --> 00:25:46.910Come back next week to hear part two.41300:25:48.200 --> 00:25:49.670Thank you for listening to.41400:25:56.880 --> 00:26:01.340Thanks for listening to mythmakers podcast brought to you by the41500:26:01.480 --> 00:26:06.220Oxford center for fantasy visit Oxford center for fantasy.org41600:26:06.360 --> 00:26:07.460to join in the fun.41700:26:08.090 --> 00:26:12.620Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus41800:26:12.870 --> 00:26:15.170visit our shop for great gifts.41900:26:15.760 --> 00:26:20.290Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts.42000:26:20.520 --> 00:26:21.130Worldwide.