Transcript
[Music]
Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.
Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives
brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.
My name is Julia Golding.
I'm an author but also director of the Centre
and today I have a very special guest.
We're joined by Andrew Head who lives in Australia.
Andrew is a great friend of the centre. He's done several of our courses and I've interviewed him
before about audio versions. One of the many gifts that Andrew brings to us is that he's looking at
this from the point of view of someone who is blind. So obviously audio versions of books are
incredibly important to him and I regard him as something as my guru, my expert on all things
Fantasy. So, hello Andrew.
Hello, and thank you for that lovely introduction.
Over the last few months, there's been a big event in Tolkien's 50th year since he passed away,
and that is the audio version of The Silmarillion has just come out, read by Andy Serkis. This
follows on to his previous contributions to the Tolkien audiobooks where he read The Hobbit,
which I think started as a lockdown project, and then he went on to read the entirety of
Lord of the Rings. Now he's turned his attention to The Silmarillion and we're going to give our
thoughts on that production. But first of all, before we do that, for people who haven't read
the Silmarillion and think, "Oh, maybe rather than sit down and read it, I'll try it as an audio."
Andrew, what are they going to get if they've come from Lord of the Rings and they turn to
the Silmarillion? What are they going to get as a listening experience? What's in it, basically?
Well, the Silmarillion is basically a prequel, if you will, to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings,
and it details a vast scope of the history of Middle Earth, particularly focusing on the First
Age and the Second Ages of Middle Earth. Of course, everything in The Hobbit and The Lord
of the Rings takes place in the Third Age. - The other thing, of course, to mention is
the Silmarillion is not, it's like a set of working papers that Tolkien had and it was
posthumously edited by his son. So we're getting something which has another person's hand upon it,
which is Christopher Tolkien. It's broken down into a number of parts. So the first part of it,
there's a couple of creation narratives and then there's the big chunk which gives the title to
the book, which is the story of these jewels, the Silmarils, which is the first age of Middle Earth
or of the world. And then there's a second age, which for those of you who are following and
watch the Rings of Power series that's set in the second age, that is about, well, one of the main
narratives is what happens to the land of Numenor, which is the land where Aragorn's ancestors come
from. And also the making of the Rings of Power. And then the third age is the one, as Andrew just
said, where you've got the story of the Lord of the Rings right at the end of that age.
Okay, so we're looking at a long history book, basically. And what would you say you find
in listening to the style of it?
It's very, it's certainly the way it's written, it's because as you say a lot of
tales and papers were cobbled together or brought together by Christopher Tolkien,
J.R.R. Tolkien's son. So it reads more like a history book rather than a novel.
but you do get, you know, it still has stories as history books do, but they're condensed. Some of
them, some of the details are a bit condensed and some of them are, some of the details are
going to a bit more depth, some of the stories I should say, go into a bit more depth. So it's a
bit of an interesting mixed bag of styles here. - Yeah, I think perhaps it's a bit similar,
if you're looking for an equivalent, dare I say, it's a bit like reading the Bible. You've got
different kinds of styles. The conceit is that it's written by the elves. So whereas the Lord
of the Rings is written by Bilbo and Frodo and a little bit by Sam, that's the conceit there.
So it's seen by the ordinary folk of the Shire. The Silmarillion is written by, let's imagine,
some elvish historian sitting in an ivory elven tower somewhere. So it means that they are
looking at things from a sort of great height, they're not down amongst the weeds and walking
through the countryside in the way that you get the lovely sort of physical details in Lord of
the Rings of actually the experience of the landscape. Though there are exceptions to that,
there are some tales where you do actually feel the presence of the landscape much more acutely.
So as you were saying, Andrew, some of the details are there, but it's not an adventure story in the
same way. It's a bit like sitting down to say, "Read the Bible." And if you're a Tolkien fan,
you probably will feel inspired to do that. But if you're not a Tolkien fan,
you'll probably think, "My goodness, this is strange. This is a strange experience."
Okay, so we've actually done podcasts on the Silmarillion, so if you want to go into more
detail about this, do dip back into our earlier episodes. Anyway, Andrew, let's get down to the
nitty gritty of why we are talking today. What's your feeling? Because I know that you and I have
both listened to the Andy Serkis reading of it. Give me your top three takeaways from the
experience of listening to it?
Well I think the Andy Serkis's reading itself,
the voices that he does, especially
he certainly got away with the voices.
Glaurung in particular
I was quite
shocked by.
But is Glaurung the dragon?
the dra... yes, yes the large dragon that terrorizes Nargothrond and Turin. Yeah, his voice was quite,
definitely made you think of a large lizard-like creature. Very hissing but also deep and very
menacing. Pulled that off very well. Certainly the, you know, the way he, the tone that he,
Andy Serkis reads. This particular book in really lends itself to the high elvish or the high
writing style that it's set in. It certainly paints the picture of it being a large sweeping
history, shall we say. And one very important thing I got from reading it, especially
from an, shall I say, an accessibility point of view. It starts off with Andy Serkis reading
the preface that Christopher Tolkien wrote and the foreword and then it goes on to do part of a letter
that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to a friend explaining the plot outline of The Silmarillion and The
Lord of the Rings, because for those that don't know, Tolkien wanted to publish the Silmarillion
and the Lord of the Rings as one large book called the Saga of the Jewels and the Rings.
But the publisher, you know, realized that the Lord of the Rings itself was going to be
a long enough, large enough task. So he persuaded Tolkien to focus on the Lord of the Rings first
and do the Silmarillion later. Yeah, that's a really good point. Just as in the Andy Serkis
version of The Lord of the Rings, he reads some of the appendices, which you don't tend to get
other versions. I also really value that. I've actually got a first edition of the Silmarillion,
so I don't have in my edition those other two pieces, which must be now regularly within the
actual Silmarillion books you buy. I've got the one with the first forward. There's been a later
forward plus this letter. And I agree with you that that letter is very helpful indeed. It's
like a crib. What's it? Cliff notes. Cliff notes to the Silmarillion. And I really enjoyed listening
to that as well. My top three, that was one of them. The other is I really thought he did a good
job on the pronunciation. Oh yes. Because that's the thing which I presumably he's had experts
next to him but there was there seemed to be you know maybe there's some super experts out there
who will say oh no he got the intonation wrong or the emphasis wrong but actually I felt he managed
this quite arcane language really well and then the other thing. It's certainly in old English
isn't it? Or more, more old English style.
Well, yeah, he's like the Venerable Bede kind of style, isn't it?
And then the other thing which I think picks up on your point about the voice for the dragon
is that when there were chances to dramatize it, he really went for it. And he could showed you how
it could be in a way that there's this dramatic story that just needs a bit more writing to make
it turn from this chronicle to a novel. And I really enjoyed that like you when he was doing
the talking dog and others. There were little moments where I really,
really enjoyed it. And I find him very easy to listen to. I'm a bit brainwashed in the same way
when my kids were growing up, I got very used to listening to Stephen Fry
chuntering away on the Harry Potter sort of saga
that they all listened to at different stages.
It sort of went into the bones after a while.
I got the feeling that listening to Andy Serkis read The Hobbit,
then The Lord of the Rings, and then The Silmarillion
is gonna have the same effect.
I'm gonna start hearing him in my head whenever I read the book.
Which isn't, you know, it's not a bad voice to have.
So I think he did an excellent job of the actual performance, the actual reading of it.
So, Andrew, but when we've talked about these versions before, you and I have both agreed
that we really liked the earlier version, which I think was only from maybe 2015. It's not that old.
The Martin Shaw version, reading of The Silmarillion. Do you have any words to say on that?
that? I mean if someone's already got the Martin Shaw version, do they need to go out and get this
one? What would they be missing out if they didn't get this one? Well they're certainly missing out on
the extra information you get in the foreword and the preface and the talking letter because
Martin Shaw version doesn't have it. So if you're you know especially from a blind person's point of
view. I was quite, I did not expect those three little beginning parts, so I was quite chuffed to,
and it's always interesting to read more on Christopher Tolkien's point of view and
J.R.R. Tolkien's point of view, and Christopher Tolkien in particular provides good insight into
how and why he wanted to publish the Silmarillion after his father passed away.
I think that the Martin Shaw is very, you know, his voice is lovely. It's a very,
another voice, not that dissimilar to Andy Serkis. It's resonant. It's got a sense of
gravity about it. I would say that he has a couple of little mannerisms, which Andy Serkis has avoided.
Tolkien rather overuses the word "therefore" and when it comes up in the text,
Martin Shaw lands rather heavily on that. Therefore, therefore. And once I noticed that,
I got a little bit, "Hmm, okay." And Andy Serkis doesn't do that. I was listening out for it.
So I think that possibly the Andy Serkis narration has that edge, just as a narratorial voice. He
gives it more variety. He pushes the drama a bit further. I wouldn't have thought there was a huge
amount of difference between the narrations in the chapters where there are less dramatic
episodes where it's more of an account of the ages. They're just two different voices. But I
would say if you're going to sort of do a toss up between the two, I would now go if I was starting
a fresh up now go for the Andy Serkis one. Yes, I think I would too. But it's always a bit of a,
I guess it depends on your mood because I do still quite like Martin Shaw's version.
He has a great voice as well as you say. So yeah, next time reading round, I'm unsure which one I
will do. Well, there's nothing stopping us shuffling between the two. Yeah, it's very true.
For a bit of variety, have one voice read one chapter and one voice read another.
I can see an advantage to doing that. Oh, that's a good idea.
The other thing I like about the Martin Shaw version is you get music in that one at the
end of each of the main sub-stories.
Oh yes, you're right.
Although I love it.
You're right, there's great music.
It's like a sort of, it picks up the feeling of the incoming tide and you know, it's got
a really atmosphere.
Yes, you're right.
They should have done that with the Andy Serkis one.
I think it's his name publisher, so they missed a trick there.
Yeah, lovely punctuation marks.
Yeah, it really adds a bit to the atmosphere and epicness of the tale.
Yeah.
They don't seem to do music as much in audio books these days.
Well, didn't they also, this is us being quite, you know, not many people will have noticed
this, but I think the old Lord of the Rings reading by, I've forgotten his name, Robert
Ingalls also has music at the end of each book.
It does, yes.
Yeah, bring back the music.
So let's talk about our favourite parts. We can put aside, you know, the two narrators.
Well done both for sitting there and reading quite a difficult book.
What is your favourite part of The Silmarillion? If you were just going to dip back in and listen
to one or two chapters, what would you go for?
Now I've stumped you there haven't I? Yes that's a difficult one. Well you said a couple so it
would have to be Beren and Luthien and then it would have to be the Akalabeth or the downfall
of Numenor. Oh okay that's interesting so Beren and Luthien are like the precursor to Aragorn and
Arwen. They are a man and an elf who fall in love. Tolkien identified very much with Beren and
Lúthien. In fact, on his gravestone, he and his wife are known as Beren and Lúthien. So,
it was his heart story. I completely agree. I think it's two chapters. In the Andy Circus,
it's extremely well read as well. It has the talking dog, so what's not to like? There's the
folkloric structure of the hero being set an impossible task. He has to go and get one of
the Silmarils from the hand of Melkor, who's like the biggest baddie of them all. It's very much
like one of those fairy tales he sets off and Luthien, who is actually really the hero of the
tale, let's face it, she goes with him. Hooray! One of the, what's the word? Are we allowed to
say kick-ass heroines of Tolkien? Doesn't feel very Tolkien-fiesty. Maybe that's a bit more Tolkien.
I'm not sure I'd go for the Númenor section, but I would go. It is fascinating. I actually like the
poetry of the language of the very beginning, which is the "Aina" - I can never say this - "Aina
Lindelay." Yeah, that is the setting up of the world. I love the image of the music and how it's
described. This does feel very biblical, or actually Miltonic, in the way it's described.
and I just think it is such...the language is so beautiful. I wouldn't mind if it was
Martin Shaw or Andy Serkis. Both of them read it very well. So perhaps on my either or,
I'll do Martin Shaw for that and then I'll do Beryn and Luthien with Andy Serkis and then
everybody's happy. So that's my pick. And then my last question to you is which of these stories
would you most like to have seen written up into a full-length book? You told me before we started
this call that you've actually read some of the later curated longer length versions of these
stories and you have views on them. I'd like to share those views and then tell us what you would
like to have seen written up in the same way as a sort of Lord of the Rings style book.
Yes, well, we've got The Children of Hurin, which is a full-length standalone novel. It's had
you know, parts from the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales that aren't quite exactly the
same, brought together and then a bit from the history of Middle-earth, I believe, as well.
Turned it into a full-length seven-hour audio book, but the audio book is seven hours. And,
for those that don't know, that is read by the wonderful Christopher Lee, who played
ceremony in the movies. So that's well worth a listen to that one. And then you have
Berin and Luthien and the Fall of Gondolin. They're the other two longer tales. And there's
bits from the Silmarillion and other papers that have all other writings that have been brought
together. But they're actually interspersed with the Seagate story but then interspersed with
Christopher Tolkien's notes and showing you how the story's changed over time. So you get
characters with different names and different happenings in the events in the story and then
Christopher Tolkien's writing come in and explains how it's changed over the many,
many years, then you get the next part that's, how do I put it, similar, sort of shows the
story evolving over time. So it's what, the successive drafts of the story?
Yes, yes, that's it. Thank you. Yes, and it's sort of all brought them together.
And you still, don't get me wrong, you still get the story. And as I say, it's interesting
to hear that, but it does, if you're expecting a story, it does at times make it a little bit
tedious and a bit difficult to get through. Even for me who enjoys hearing more about the
processes as an author, it can be a bit challenging to get through.
Yes, because what you're really listening to is a story of how a story is written, isn't it? Rather
than the actual story. It's very meta.
Yeah, and the nice thing, the way with the audio versions of those books is they have
a father and son, Timothy and Samuel West, and Timothy reads the Christopher Tolkien part,
and then his son Samuel reads the actual story that J.R.R. Tolkien's written. So it helps,
if you're listening to it, it helps break it up a bit and helps you focus better because you've
got two different voices and you're like, "Okay, this voice does this part." So I think if you're
listening to it, you have an advantage over if you were just reading it, it might be even harder to
understand at some points. That's a very good point. They also do an excellent job on the
Unfinished Tales where they do a similar thing. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So another, all the audio
versions I've come across all are pretty good actually. I've not come across a dud
version. I think they offer different pleasures. So if I was taking, if I was taking, oh I haven't,
you haven't answered yet the question about which one you'd like to be treated as a Lord of the
Rings style book, you know a proper narrative from the point of view of some characters having an
adventure. I gave that spiel so that people would understand why I'm about to say what I'm about to
that. So I would, even though in a sense Beren and Luthien is a standalone novel now, it is,
but it can't, with the breaking up of Christopher Tolkien's explanations throughout the story,
as opposed to in a prologue or an epilogue, or a foreword or whatever you want to call it,
it makes it a bit tricky. And I was expecting that it would have been the same, both
would have been both Baron and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin would have been the same as
The Children of Huron where it is a standalone novel from cover to cover. So I was really hoping
and would have liked Baron and Luthien to be a standalone seven-hour book. Once the story started,
it continues on. And I don't know, maybe there just wasn't for whatever reason as much detail
as there was with the Tudor of Huron, which is why there was a lot of explanation and
examples of the different drafts put in. But still, it would have been nice.
Right, I'm going to give a different answer. So, that which is good. I think having sort of pondered
this for a while now, that actually where I would go as a storyteller is I would tell the story
of Elrond and Elros and their parents Earendil and Elwing, which comes at the end of the
First Age. Why? Because there's a hostage story of two children taken hostage by the two remaining
sons of Fianor who are holding them hostage and there's a fight over a jewels and I won't spoil
it because it's got such a dramatic end where, well, it's been out now for quite a few years so
I'm not really spoiling it. I think the actual art story arc of what happens to the sort of,
they're not exactly bad guys because they're conflicted. They're not like Melkor who's just
evil. They're interesting shades of grey bad guys which make them more interesting.
And Elrond and Elros are the young innocents. They're the hobbit style perspective which you
need in the story to make it relatable. So I think meeting, and they then have the choice
themselves between immortality or mortal life. I think that whole thing, Tolkien Estate,
needs a good novel. Have to do it but find someone else if not. I think that would make a really,
really good novel or a good series if you're looking for future places to go because it's
so engaging. Yes and I'm very glad you mentioned that because I'm actually, if that was to ever
happen I'd actually be quite excited about that because yeah you've got that and then you've got
you know, all the Elros going to Numenor and setting all that, starting all that and
you know, get a more in-depth, young years of Numenor when it was a newly established island.
And then of course you'll, and this would have been really interesting when of course, because
Elros has chosen the path of men and he's mortal, so he eventually passes away. And I just think,
you know, to explore that and how Elrond, you know, copes that his brother's gone,
that would have just been, wow. Yeah, I think that makes,
in terms of a novel, you'd probably finish it there, wouldn't you? You could finish it there.
that's like an epilogue with the brother dying and some sense of what's to come. Anyway,
it's already, I've already written this in my head. I know they control everything so
fiercely that, you know, this is just on my wish list. But that's what I would have asked Tolkien
to do if he was still with us or if they let somebody else have a go at it. They do release
the rights at all for the first age, that would be where I would go as a storyteller.
Because it has, it brings in the history of the Silmarils, but right at the end of it all,
when the fate of the Silmarils is actually settled. Anyway, I doubt anyone's listening
from the Tolkien Estate, but that's what I think has story potential. Andrew, thank you so much
for talking this through. We always like to end with where in all the fantasy world is the best
place for something. And on this theme of narrators and stories, I wonder if you've got an idea of
where is the best place to go and listen to a story? Have you ever thought, "Oh, I'd really
love to be in such and such a location and listen to a story told by one of the storytellers of
legend"? While you're thinking about that, I'll give my answer. I think I would like to go and
There's a very sweet book called The King of the Copper Mountain. It's a Dutch storybook and it's
about an old king who's dying and every so often there's a knock on the door. And in order to keep
him alive, the doctor who's treating him has sent different animals to tell him a tale to keep him
happy whilst he looks for the medicine to cure him. But the ones that come are so surprising.
You know, there's the more predictable fox and what have you, and then there's a swarm of bees.
They come tell the story. And then there's a dragon out on their field. I think that'd be
really interesting to be with the king of the Copper Mountain waiting to see what animal's
going to come through next. Have you got a favourite place for storytelling?
I'll give two. So my last answer was it'd be great to be in Rivendell with the elves and
listen to the epic tales told by Elrond or one of the other elves over a feast.
But I also think another good place would be Gare Paravel in Narnia.
I'd certainly like to ask what we don't get when reading the Chronicles of Narnia.
What we sort of do with the horse and his boy. But I'd like to ask Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lizzie
for more stories of what they did. What they did in their years off. Yeah. What did they actually do?
Yeah, you know, we hear so much and so much in, especially in A Horse and His Boy, so much is
alluded to, but yeah, we really don't see too much of that. That's a lovely thought. I think
I'd also like to ask some of the talking animals to tell their tales from their point of view.
that'd be fun. Of course, yes of course. Yeah, great place. Thank you so much Andrew for talking
through the Andy Serkis reading of The Silmarillion. I think we're both for giving
it a thumbs up aren't we, which is nice. Absolutely. Thank you very much for listening.
Thanks for having me again.
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