Andy Serkis Reads The Silmarillion - The Verdict (Season 4 Premiere!)

[Music]Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creativesbrought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.My name is Julia Golding.I'm an author but also director of the Centreand today I have a very special guest.We're joined by Andrew Head who lives in Australia.Andrew is a great friend of the centre. He's done several of our courses and I've interviewed himbefore about audio versions. One of the many gifts that Andrew brings to us is that he's looking atthis from the point of view of someone who is blind. So obviously audio versions of books areincredibly important to him and I regard him as something as my guru, my expert on all thingsFantasy. So, hello Andrew.Hello, and thank you for that lovely introduction.Over the last few months, there's been a big event in Tolkien's 50th year since he passed away,and that is the audio version of The Silmarillion has just come out, read by Andy Serkis. Thisfollows on to his previous contributions to the Tolkien audiobooks where he read The Hobbit,which I think started as a lockdown project, and then he went on to read the entirety ofLord of the Rings. Now he's turned his attention to The Silmarillion and we're going to give ourthoughts on that production. But first of all, before we do that, for people who haven't readthe Silmarillion and think, "Oh, maybe rather than sit down and read it, I'll try it as an audio."Andrew, what are they going to get if they've come from Lord of the Rings and they turn tothe Silmarillion? What are they going to get as a listening experience? What's in it, basically?Well, the Silmarillion is basically a prequel, if you will, to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings,and it details a vast scope of the history of Middle Earth, particularly focusing on the FirstAge and the Second Ages of Middle Earth. Of course, everything in The Hobbit and The Lordof the Rings takes place in the Third Age. - The other thing, of course, to mention isthe Silmarillion is not, it's like a set of working papers that Tolkien had and it wasposthumously edited by his son. So we're getting something which has another person's hand upon it,which is Christopher Tolkien. It's broken down into a number of parts. So the first part of it,there's a couple of creation narratives and then there's the big chunk which gives the title tothe book, which is the story of these jewels, the Silmarils, which is the first age of Middle Earthor of the world. And then there's a second age, which for those of you who are following andwatch the Rings of Power series that's set in the second age, that is about, well, one of the mainnarratives is what happens to the land of Numenor, which is the land where Aragorn's ancestors comefrom. And also the making of the Rings of Power. And then the third age is the one, as Andrew justsaid, where you've got the story of the Lord of the Rings right at the end of that age.Okay, so we're looking at a long history book, basically. And what would you say you findin listening to the style of it?It's very, it's certainly the way it's written, it's because as you say a lot oftales and papers were cobbled together or brought together by Christopher Tolkien,J.R.R. Tolkien's son. So it reads more like a history book rather than a novel.but you do get, you know, it still has stories as history books do, but they're condensed. Some ofthem, some of the details are a bit condensed and some of them are, some of the details aregoing to a bit more depth, some of the stories I should say, go into a bit more depth. So it's abit of an interesting mixed bag of styles here. - Yeah, I think perhaps it's a bit similar,if you're looking for an equivalent, dare I say, it's a bit like reading the Bible. You've gotdifferent kinds of styles. The conceit is that it's written by the elves. So whereas the Lordof the Rings is written by Bilbo and Frodo and a little bit by Sam, that's the conceit there.So it's seen by the ordinary folk of the Shire. The Silmarillion is written by, let's imagine,some elvish historian sitting in an ivory elven tower somewhere. So it means that they arelooking at things from a sort of great height, they're not down amongst the weeds and walkingthrough the countryside in the way that you get the lovely sort of physical details in Lord ofthe Rings of actually the experience of the landscape. Though there are exceptions to that,there are some tales where you do actually feel the presence of the landscape much more acutely.So as you were saying, Andrew, some of the details are there, but it's not an adventure story in thesame way. It's a bit like sitting down to say, "Read the Bible." And if you're a Tolkien fan,you probably will feel inspired to do that. But if you're not a Tolkien fan,you'll probably think, "My goodness, this is strange. This is a strange experience."Okay, so we've actually done podcasts on the Silmarillion, so if you want to go into moredetail about this, do dip back into our earlier episodes. Anyway, Andrew, let's get down to thenitty gritty of why we are talking today. What's your feeling? Because I know that you and I haveboth listened to the Andy Serkis reading of it. Give me your top three takeaways from theexperience of listening to it?Well I think the Andy Serkis's reading itself,the voices that he does, especiallyhe certainly got away with the voices.Glaurung in particularI was quiteshocked by.But is Glaurung the dragon?the dra... yes, yes the large dragon that terrorizes Nargothrond and Turin. Yeah, his voice was quite,definitely made you think of a large lizard-like creature. Very hissing but also deep and verymenacing. Pulled that off very well. Certainly the, you know, the way he, the tone that he,Andy Serkis reads. This particular book in really lends itself to the high elvish or the highwriting style that it's set in. It certainly paints the picture of it being a large sweepinghistory, shall we say. And one very important thing I got from reading it, especiallyfrom an, shall I say, an accessibility point of view. It starts off with Andy Serkis readingthe preface that Christopher Tolkien wrote and the foreword and then it goes on to do part of a letterthat J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to a friend explaining the plot outline of The Silmarillion and TheLord of the Rings, because for those that don't know, Tolkien wanted to publish the Silmarillionand the Lord of the Rings as one large book called the Saga of the Jewels and the Rings.But the publisher, you know, realized that the Lord of the Rings itself was going to bea long enough, large enough task. So he persuaded Tolkien to focus on the Lord of the Rings firstand do the Silmarillion later. Yeah, that's a really good point. Just as in the Andy Serkisversion of The Lord of the Rings, he reads some of the appendices, which you don't tend to getother versions. I also really value that. I've actually got a first edition of the Silmarillion,so I don't have in my edition those other two pieces, which must be now regularly within theactual Silmarillion books you buy. I've got the one with the first forward. There's been a laterforward plus this letter. And I agree with you that that letter is very helpful indeed. It'slike a crib. What's it? Cliff notes. Cliff notes to the Silmarillion. And I really enjoyed listeningto that as well. My top three, that was one of them. The other is I really thought he did a goodjob on the pronunciation. Oh yes. Because that's the thing which I presumably he's had expertsnext to him but there was there seemed to be you know maybe there's some super experts out therewho will say oh no he got the intonation wrong or the emphasis wrong but actually I felt he managedthis quite arcane language really well and then the other thing. It's certainly in old Englishisn't it? Or more, more old English style.Well, yeah, he's like the Venerable Bede kind of style, isn't it?And then the other thing which I think picks up on your point about the voice for the dragonis that when there were chances to dramatize it, he really went for it. And he could showed you howit could be in a way that there's this dramatic story that just needs a bit more writing to makeit turn from this chronicle to a novel. And I really enjoyed that like you when he was doingthe talking dog and others. There were little moments where I really,really enjoyed it. And I find him very easy to listen to. I'm a bit brainwashed in the same waywhen my kids were growing up, I got very used to listening to Stephen Frychuntering away on the Harry Potter sort of sagathat they all listened to at different stages.It sort of went into the bones after a while.I got the feeling that listening to Andy Serkis read The Hobbit,then The Lord of the Rings, and then The Silmarillionis gonna have the same effect.I'm gonna start hearing him in my head whenever I read the book.Which isn't, you know, it's not a bad voice to have.So I think he did an excellent job of the actual performance, the actual reading of it.So, Andrew, but when we've talked about these versions before, you and I have both agreedthat we really liked the earlier version, which I think was only from maybe 2015. It's not that old.The Martin Shaw version, reading of The Silmarillion. Do you have any words to say on that?that? I mean if someone's already got the Martin Shaw version, do they need to go out and get thisone? What would they be missing out if they didn't get this one? Well they're certainly missing out onthe extra information you get in the foreword and the preface and the talking letter becauseMartin Shaw version doesn't have it. So if you're you know especially from a blind person's point ofview. I was quite, I did not expect those three little beginning parts, so I was quite chuffed to,and it's always interesting to read more on Christopher Tolkien's point of view andJ.R.R. Tolkien's point of view, and Christopher Tolkien in particular provides good insight intohow and why he wanted to publish the Silmarillion after his father passed away.I think that the Martin Shaw is very, you know, his voice is lovely. It's a very,another voice, not that dissimilar to Andy Serkis. It's resonant. It's got a sense ofgravity about it. I would say that he has a couple of little mannerisms, which Andy Serkis has avoided.Tolkien rather overuses the word "therefore" and when it comes up in the text,Martin Shaw lands rather heavily on that. Therefore, therefore. And once I noticed that,I got a little bit, "Hmm, okay." And Andy Serkis doesn't do that. I was listening out for it.So I think that possibly the Andy Serkis narration has that edge, just as a narratorial voice. Hegives it more variety. He pushes the drama a bit further. I wouldn't have thought there was a hugeamount of difference between the narrations in the chapters where there are less dramaticepisodes where it's more of an account of the ages. They're just two different voices. But Iwould say if you're going to sort of do a toss up between the two, I would now go if I was startinga fresh up now go for the Andy Serkis one. Yes, I think I would too. But it's always a bit of a,I guess it depends on your mood because I do still quite like Martin Shaw's version.He has a great voice as well as you say. So yeah, next time reading round, I'm unsure which one Iwill do. Well, there's nothing stopping us shuffling between the two. Yeah, it's very true.For a bit of variety, have one voice read one chapter and one voice read another.I can see an advantage to doing that. Oh, that's a good idea.The other thing I like about the Martin Shaw version is you get music in that one at theend of each of the main sub-stories.Oh yes, you're right.Although I love it.You're right, there's great music.It's like a sort of, it picks up the feeling of the incoming tide and you know, it's gota really atmosphere.Yes, you're right.They should have done that with the Andy Serkis one.I think it's his name publisher, so they missed a trick there.Yeah, lovely punctuation marks.Yeah, it really adds a bit to the atmosphere and epicness of the tale.Yeah.They don't seem to do music as much in audio books these days.Well, didn't they also, this is us being quite, you know, not many people will have noticedthis, but I think the old Lord of the Rings reading by, I've forgotten his name, RobertIngalls also has music at the end of each book.It does, yes.Yeah, bring back the music.So let's talk about our favourite parts. We can put aside, you know, the two narrators.Well done both for sitting there and reading quite a difficult book.What is your favourite part of The Silmarillion? If you were just going to dip back in and listento one or two chapters, what would you go for?Now I've stumped you there haven't I? Yes that's a difficult one. Well you said a couple so itwould have to be Beren and Luthien and then it would have to be the Akalabeth or the downfallof Numenor. Oh okay that's interesting so Beren and Luthien are like the precursor to Aragorn andArwen. They are a man and an elf who fall in love. Tolkien identified very much with Beren andLúthien. In fact, on his gravestone, he and his wife are known as Beren and Lúthien. So,it was his heart story. I completely agree. I think it's two chapters. In the Andy Circus,it's extremely well read as well. It has the talking dog, so what's not to like? There's thefolkloric structure of the hero being set an impossible task. He has to go and get one ofthe Silmarils from the hand of Melkor, who's like the biggest baddie of them all. It's very muchlike one of those fairy tales he sets off and Luthien, who is actually really the hero of thetale, let's face it, she goes with him. Hooray! One of the, what's the word? Are we allowed tosay kick-ass heroines of Tolkien? Doesn't feel very Tolkien-fiesty. Maybe that's a bit more Tolkien.I'm not sure I'd go for the Númenor section, but I would go. It is fascinating. I actually like thepoetry of the language of the very beginning, which is the "Aina" - I can never say this - "AinaLindelay." Yeah, that is the setting up of the world. I love the image of the music and how it'sdescribed. This does feel very biblical, or actually Miltonic, in the way it's described.and I just think it is such...the language is so beautiful. I wouldn't mind if it wasMartin Shaw or Andy Serkis. Both of them read it very well. So perhaps on my either or,I'll do Martin Shaw for that and then I'll do Beryn and Luthien with Andy Serkis and theneverybody's happy. So that's my pick. And then my last question to you is which of these storieswould you most like to have seen written up into a full-length book? You told me before we startedthis call that you've actually read some of the later curated longer length versions of thesestories and you have views on them. I'd like to share those views and then tell us what you wouldlike to have seen written up in the same way as a sort of Lord of the Rings style book.Yes, well, we've got The Children of Hurin, which is a full-length standalone novel. It's hadyou know, parts from the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales that aren't quite exactly thesame, brought together and then a bit from the history of Middle-earth, I believe, as well.Turned it into a full-length seven-hour audio book, but the audio book is seven hours. And,for those that don't know, that is read by the wonderful Christopher Lee, who playedceremony in the movies. So that's well worth a listen to that one. And then you haveBerin and Luthien and the Fall of Gondolin. They're the other two longer tales. And there'sbits from the Silmarillion and other papers that have all other writings that have been broughttogether. But they're actually interspersed with the Seagate story but then interspersed withChristopher Tolkien's notes and showing you how the story's changed over time. So you getcharacters with different names and different happenings in the events in the story and thenChristopher Tolkien's writing come in and explains how it's changed over the many,many years, then you get the next part that's, how do I put it, similar, sort of shows thestory evolving over time. So it's what, the successive drafts of the story?Yes, yes, that's it. Thank you. Yes, and it's sort of all brought them together.And you still, don't get me wrong, you still get the story. And as I say, it's interestingto hear that, but it does, if you're expecting a story, it does at times make it a little bittedious and a bit difficult to get through. Even for me who enjoys hearing more about theprocesses as an author, it can be a bit challenging to get through.Yes, because what you're really listening to is a story of how a story is written, isn't it? Ratherthan the actual story. It's very meta.Yeah, and the nice thing, the way with the audio versions of those books is they havea father and son, Timothy and Samuel West, and Timothy reads the Christopher Tolkien part,and then his son Samuel reads the actual story that J.R.R. Tolkien's written. So it helps,if you're listening to it, it helps break it up a bit and helps you focus better because you'vegot two different voices and you're like, "Okay, this voice does this part." So I think if you'relistening to it, you have an advantage over if you were just reading it, it might be even harder tounderstand at some points. That's a very good point. They also do an excellent job on theUnfinished Tales where they do a similar thing. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So another, all the audioversions I've come across all are pretty good actually. I've not come across a dudversion. I think they offer different pleasures. So if I was taking, if I was taking, oh I haven't,you haven't answered yet the question about which one you'd like to be treated as a Lord of theRings style book, you know a proper narrative from the point of view of some characters having anadventure. I gave that spiel so that people would understand why I'm about to say what I'm about tothat. So I would, even though in a sense Beren and Luthien is a standalone novel now, it is,but it can't, with the breaking up of Christopher Tolkien's explanations throughout the story,as opposed to in a prologue or an epilogue, or a foreword or whatever you want to call it,it makes it a bit tricky. And I was expecting that it would have been the same, bothwould have been both Baron and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin would have been the same asThe Children of Huron where it is a standalone novel from cover to cover. So I was really hopingand would have liked Baron and Luthien to be a standalone seven-hour book. Once the story started,it continues on. And I don't know, maybe there just wasn't for whatever reason as much detailas there was with the Tudor of Huron, which is why there was a lot of explanation andexamples of the different drafts put in. But still, it would have been nice.Right, I'm going to give a different answer. So, that which is good. I think having sort of ponderedthis for a while now, that actually where I would go as a storyteller is I would tell the storyof Elrond and Elros and their parents Earendil and Elwing, which comes at the end of theFirst Age. Why? Because there's a hostage story of two children taken hostage by the two remainingsons of Fianor who are holding them hostage and there's a fight over a jewels and I won't spoilit because it's got such a dramatic end where, well, it's been out now for quite a few years soI'm not really spoiling it. I think the actual art story arc of what happens to the sort of,they're not exactly bad guys because they're conflicted. They're not like Melkor who's justevil. They're interesting shades of grey bad guys which make them more interesting.And Elrond and Elros are the young innocents. They're the hobbit style perspective which youneed in the story to make it relatable. So I think meeting, and they then have the choicethemselves between immortality or mortal life. I think that whole thing, Tolkien Estate,needs a good novel. Have to do it but find someone else if not. I think that would make a really,really good novel or a good series if you're looking for future places to go because it'sso engaging. Yes and I'm very glad you mentioned that because I'm actually, if that was to everhappen I'd actually be quite excited about that because yeah you've got that and then you've gotyou know, all the Elros going to Numenor and setting all that, starting all that andyou know, get a more in-depth, young years of Numenor when it was a newly established island.And then of course you'll, and this would have been really interesting when of course, becauseElros has chosen the path of men and he's mortal, so he eventually passes away. And I just think,you know, to explore that and how Elrond, you know, copes that his brother's gone,that would have just been, wow. Yeah, I think that makes,in terms of a novel, you'd probably finish it there, wouldn't you? You could finish it there.that's like an epilogue with the brother dying and some sense of what's to come. Anyway,it's already, I've already written this in my head. I know they control everything sofiercely that, you know, this is just on my wish list. But that's what I would have asked Tolkiento do if he was still with us or if they let somebody else have a go at it. They do releasethe rights at all for the first age, that would be where I would go as a storyteller.Because it has, it brings in the history of the Silmarils, but right at the end of it all,when the fate of the Silmarils is actually settled. Anyway, I doubt anyone's listeningfrom the Tolkien Estate, but that's what I think has story potential. Andrew, thank you so muchfor talking this through. We always like to end with where in all the fantasy world is the bestplace for something. And on this theme of narrators and stories, I wonder if you've got an idea ofwhere is the best place to go and listen to a story? Have you ever thought, "Oh, I'd reallylove to be in such and such a location and listen to a story told by one of the storytellers oflegend"? While you're thinking about that, I'll give my answer. I think I would like to go andThere's a very sweet book called The King of the Copper Mountain. It's a Dutch storybook and it'sabout an old king who's dying and every so often there's a knock on the door. And in order to keephim alive, the doctor who's treating him has sent different animals to tell him a tale to keep himhappy whilst he looks for the medicine to cure him. But the ones that come are so surprising.You know, there's the more predictable fox and what have you, and then there's a swarm of bees.They come tell the story. And then there's a dragon out on their field. I think that'd bereally interesting to be with the king of the Copper Mountain waiting to see what animal'sgoing to come through next. Have you got a favourite place for storytelling?I'll give two. So my last answer was it'd be great to be in Rivendell with the elves andlisten to the epic tales told by Elrond or one of the other elves over a feast.But I also think another good place would be Gare Paravel in Narnia.I'd certainly like to ask what we don't get when reading the Chronicles of Narnia.What we sort of do with the horse and his boy. But I'd like to ask Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lizziefor more stories of what they did. What they did in their years off. Yeah. What did they actually do?Yeah, you know, we hear so much and so much in, especially in A Horse and His Boy, so much isalluded to, but yeah, we really don't see too much of that. That's a lovely thought. I thinkI'd also like to ask some of the talking animals to tell their tales from their point of view.that'd be fun. Of course, yes of course. Yeah, great place. Thank you so much Andrew for talkingthrough the Andy Serkis reading of The Silmarillion. I think we're both for givingit a thumbs up aren't we, which is nice. Absolutely. Thank you very much for listening.Thanks for having me again.Thanks for listening to Myth Makers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun.Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford,plus visit our shop for great gifts.Tell a friend and subscribe, wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.[MUSIC PLAYING](upbeat music)