Did Peter Jackson get it right? - The Two Towers movie reconsidered - with Jacob Rennaker

Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Coulding and I'm an author but also the director of the Centre. And for the second time I've been joined by Jacob Renica who is a Tolkien fan and also a language specialist amongst many other things. And we are taking a look at the Peter Jackson films 20 years on and thinking about the script choices and what might be what mistakes were made, what great choices were taken and also where the scope might be for future script writers and new new filmmakers and television program makers to come along and do their own version. And today of course as it's the second we have reached the two towers. So Jacob first of all is this one of your favourite of the films or you know where in the lineup is it? We've already got three to line up. Where would you go? Yeah. I'm asking which of the Star Wars films do you like? I can say right. I can find a question. Yeah it is. You know it I would say it might be at least favourite but only because but that's not there. I think that they're all for me again that I like I mentioned last time I see them all is just kind of like one continual story especially since they were shot kind of continuously. So in terms of the segments or chapters of the story yeah it's I think I get more out of the characters and the world with the first and the third than I do in the second. So second is traditionally the most difficult to do well right? The saggy middle right you have to get through. So the beginning you have set up you have your inciting incidents you have all this you know new new things that are happening crises and then you still have to get to your you know climax and resolution but there's this big stretch in the middle that you have to do something engaging with from an audience perspective. And so it's I think I think it's I think it's good it's very I think because of the battles there that sometimes seems a little long could be longer but yeah it's I'd say yeah so the least again that's a hard like you said. I mean struggling to criticize something we actually really like right exactly. I actually really enjoy watching how they cope with a really difficult thing which is what to do with the middle section. I mean I get a lot of enjoyment from that. I agree with you it's not I would probably rewatch the first and the third more frequently but there are certainly plenty of perfect moments in in the second and so really great choices which surprised me I remember watching it for the first time which I thought this is really good. So before we think about the the bigger structure we're going to start with some smaller moments. First of all let's think about the casting and and the the choices of language and that kind of thing in the second film. We we're talking a lot about how Frodo was cast young in fellowship. In this film I think most of the casting is there's less challenging casting in this. It's all pretty pretty much on on the same line as the book that we do have I suppose this falls into this. We do have characters popping up where they are in the book like Halberrad sort of rocks up to with the elves, rocks up to Helm Steep. There are some choices like that which mean that some characters are astray. So were you happy with the casting choices? The new the new people of course mainly the Rohan. It's Bernard Hill and Miranda I've gone her surname and the wonderful actress. Oh, Otto. Oh thank you and Kurt not Kurt. Bern is the Karl Erben. I was the Kurt Cobain. That's someone completely different. Also a blonde longish hair. Yeah and then of course there's David. Oh yeah I should have got my pharameer. When? Which is known as pharameer. So what what do you think about and almost forgot Werntung. Another great character of Tolkien. Were you happy with the choices they made? I'm very happy with them all. I am also I am also I know it's funny that this was just a couple months ago. I'm watching the X-Files television series, American television series, and the fellow who plays Werntung I'm so sad that I forgot his name. He he was in an episode of the second season, first or second season of X-Files as a you know the creepiest, the most sinister possible kind of antagonist and he did it was yeah so it was a joy it was a joy to watch him in another role. Brad Dorif. Thank you. I knew I was going to get that completely wrong and yeah. So Brad was was yeah it's just an incredible choice for that level of yeah kind of again the sinister sneaky sleazy just dark creepy. He's yeah some sort of creature of the night. I'm sure in real life I would love to meet him in real life and just have a good chat with him. He's quite funny in the in the making off because of course he had to shave off his eyebrows each time he played the part. Oh wow okay. His partner was getting quite cross because he when he went for the pickups he'd come back looking you know and not good look guys if you think you're giving off your eyebrows. Okay so yeah I think in that case with I don't think tonally there's much difference I think answering films they they've maintained it's not one of these scripts where they've had like loads of writers coming in and it doesn't fit it feels all part of an overarching trilogy. So yeah so what about the perfect moments for you? Do you have any of loads in there? Yeah the one I can say just you know one one moment the moment that somehow I want translated onto my tombstone is a arrogance return opening the hall doors at Helmstead right when he walks in he's he's just you know drug himself through the water and the horse you know Brego took him up onto his back and then took him back but then you know when when he first you know enters the hall there of Helmstead with that kind of slow motion almost you know a half slow motion pushing open the doors and him just you know striding in there is every single time it's just this like I just get this like surge of yeah just like majesty and power and you know uh awe and not that I am any of those things but just so if somebody's stopping by my gravesite someday that they see that they might get that you know just have a nice I think I'm suspect that you you you you you you identify and root for arrogant quite a lot I think I can see this I can understand that whole episode of him falling off the edge and being dead and coming back again is is another sort of birth death and resurrection kind of story and it but it's not actually from the books right right right it works it works I think I think I think I I mean I I think again like I I saw before I read the books um uh two towers was the film so I saw the fellowship and then uh two towers and after two towers came out that's what really it was the end of the two towers film that really gave me the final push to dive into the books themselves and then my life became consumed by Tolkien after words forever after um but it was that yeah so so it was it was compelling for me and got me into a place where I wanted to learn more about those characters but yeah it may be yeah arrogant and with the in talking about casting um just going back for a second with arrogant there here and elsewhere Vigo Mortensen bringing this a kind of softness I want to say you know kind of almost like a feminine energy to this king this powerful king so he's this really this combination of you know power and strength but also this softness and care and nurture as this you know king healer that you do see in the book um but I think he really kind of elevates that and brings out the kind of nurturing qualities of the king a little a little more in his in his performance there that uh that I love personally and kind of is essentially kind of my model for uh I wish that I could be arrogant as a father to my to my children they could see me and as I know yeah as a good aspiration for me one of the perfect moments in terms of camera work and and evocation of place and everything is when you first see the golden hall um med yourself and you've got air wind standing in on that very windy um ledge that she stands on but it just seems a very it's almost like a perfect talking moment there's the vistas the scope the sense of it actually having the air you know it's a wild place but yeah that the other thing I really like as well um she's a slightly odd choice maybe it's I love that they use the Anglo-Saxon dirge for when they bury um dead yeah I think this might only be an extended addition I don't know anyway um that that's lovely because of course they are the Anglo-Saxons in this world across between them and the the Hungarian riders of ancient history um and so there's lots of moments there thinking this thing not forget um the journey of Frodo and Sam are there any perfect moments for you on that because of course there is the introduction of golem yeah yeah you do have that I think for me the moments with with Frodo and Sam my favorite moment there in two towers is you know Sam's monologue when they're around osquilia um you've blip right at the end here right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but in terms of the moments overall just like that where he's talking about right it's like in the great stories uh the ones that really mattered and he's talking about the characters living inside a story versus you know seeing the story from the outside and what what sort of difference that makes um from a person's perspective and just like yeah so his delivery um Sean Essin's delivery of that is just so earnest and pure and inspiring every time I see it yeah that's that's a moment just like really charges me and thinks it makes me think that right then the Andrea Frodo asks him so he says you know that there's there's something that was that they were holding on to in those stories and then Frodo says you know what were they holding on to what are we holding on to Sam and he says that there's some good in this world mr. Frodo and it's worth fighting for right so every single time that just you know it's it is it is inspirational uh kind of at it at its core and yeah that's for me that's one of the things that one of the moments that in rewatching these films there's the ones that I look forward to most and get the most out of our some of those character moments and the funeral moment also that you that you moment that you mentioned that was one of my other favorite moments is that entire burial scene and then the conversation oh yeah afterward between uh right are two kings if you will and the reflection on you know burying uh your children is is is quite touching and moving yeah just the the English accent dirge just kind of yeah evokes that and I think yeah I think great performance you're there talking about that it's a very simple and stripped vaccine just between him and Gandalf but I think it feels so genuine because of course in the way the book works the dreads dead sort of happy it moves quite swiftly on um and I think it was a really good decision to give a moment of grief yeah uh because it the book doesn't have that breathing space in it um so one more moment of course is I do think that when I watched the first time the anti-circus first schizophrenic um digital golem that was just amazing when I first saw that I mean it's become so paraded that we almost forget how powerful that was were really well written I mean it's all there in the talking but the way it's chosen and put together and then performed I think is another extremely perfect moment you know one of the best scenes in the whole the three films I agree okay any um less good moments um yeah so again this is I think uh look at a big picture and uh you know Tolkien's own theory of uh creating worlds right of of myth making so in um his essay on fairy stories he talks about um you know the creation of secondary worlds right and that um your goal is to create a world that is internally consistent and that your mind can enter and where it relates to everything as being true within within that world itself right um so the moment so he says you know that's the the suspension of disbelief is one thing he doesn't think that that's what fantasy does fantasy isn't just the suspension of disbelief but rather the kind of invitation toward and fostering of an active belief in a secondary fantasy world so um he so he so he says the moment that the disbelief arises then the spells broken and then the magic or rather the art has failed where it was his way of describing that so for me the moment like the moment that that absolutely I was taken out of this film as a true internally consistent world uh was a legalist kind of skateboarding down the stairs on the on the shield and shooting arrows um I think if I would have seen that as a earlier teenager that that might have been my favorite scene in the film isn't it it's kind of a different audience for that it seemed right right so that seems yeah so so I think so that kind of like tonally it it seemed a little bit off uh I would expect I think given how the elves act it I know it didn't seem quite as dignified I don't know what I was expecting him to do to kind of like float down the stairs and shoot arrows instead I don't know what the alternative is but it wasn't but that that was for whatever reasons that was something that during that intense battle kind of like had took me out of that secondary world and said oh I'm watching a film not I'm living inside this world so for me that's probably the biggest example of something that was a cool shot and like a fun idea but ended up for me personally kind of taking me out of the film for a moment I think again that's and does go a bit crazy about a legalist doesn't he because um I sort of put that along that moment I agree because of the skateboarding feel of that it does feel like a stunt yeah whereas even more absurd but in a sense more earned is when he takes down the mumma kill uh the uniform in the next film I'm leaving it the same sort of thing but that's the sort of you can see him thinking how do I get how do I how do I tackle this creature and he methodically works his way I think well I've got to do this and so it feels I don't know there's something a bit more within the world about that again it's an elaborate it's not in the book or anything but um that for me doesn't jar even though it's ridiculous uh in the hobby the peach action goes completely crazy he's doing antifysics thing where he's climbing up falling rocks uh in the last in the battle of that um which really is just and hanging off bats completely completely basically yeah so you know I would put that that sequence at one end and mumma kill at the other end and the the shield thing yeah okay he's kind of like it works I could see somebody actually doing that yes but I could see like me and my friends trying to do and I I'm sure there's probably uh you know you know uh hospitals emergency rooms who have witnessed how many children have tried reenacting that down their own stairs yeah you're worried because you go to your own if you say I know yeah so yeah so have to be careful um which scenes are just skip past that uh but it's it so it was it was but like so it would seem more contemporary than something that fit into that world I mean if we'd seen something like that happen before or there was a real reason like he had to get down and we saw him taking the shield and it was if it seemed kind of like an inevitable choice uh that he had to get down and the only way he could do that was with this if it was set up differently then I could see it it seeming more natural I think I can see a world or a way of shooting that in which he has to do this and so I'm okay with it within the world itself but as it's shot and as it came across to me it seemed they're kind of gimmicky yeah okay right so moving on from that we again everybody we're doing this about something we love um it's not that it's a tiny moment which we're quibbling not not the whole arc of the film or anything let's think about the the way it's structured from beginning to end I think I want to particularly mention how it starts so if you can cast your mind back to 2001 I think it was when it came out was it 2001 somewhere somewhere around there um I think that choosing to start with rerunning the bowrog um scene but flipping it to Gandalf's perspective was genius no unexpected but also um sort of sort of doing a reprise it's this is the important moment this is the moment moment that's haunted Frodo it was it was a very clever so I loved that it's one of my favorite openings actually it's it is my favorite opening of all the three films it's the one that I think is the best bit of um filmmaking yeah yeah agreed and the so the cinematography during that section right so you're hearing the noises of the battle as you're getting this big kind of like panoramics you know sweeping shot of these you know snow covered mountains and you're you're being set up with you know a sense the scope of this film and what's happening you're immediately stepping into this wide world and then you're hearing the conflict and so it's giving you a chance to like ramp up to remember it you're almost being primed to remember it and then you actually get in there you know zooming in closing in and then getting inside the mountain and looking at that yeah it's it's it's beautiful it's a great yeah a very powerful way to start the film with doing a small recap like you said to get what's the minimum amount that you have to do to get people up to speed to get into the film and I think that was a brilliant decision and way of doing that it was very effective I felt so in terms of the structure they have the problem that Frodo and Sam's journey is quite unrelentingly miserable there's a brief brief spell with pharameer in the books where things look up for a little bit but it is lots of rocky or ashy or swabumpy landscapes muted tones lots of suffering and either three actors or two so very intense so they've got two films that one and a half more films to do this and I think it's really tough it's tough in the books I mean I love those bits because I always think that the real adventure is is the mental struggle the journey that's going on and the way that their relationship changes and shifts so is it I think I find it fascinating but I know that my own children for example they much prefer the Pippin and Mary and you know the colourful fighting the the travel you know the other the other stories but of course those stories are actually just settings to allow Frodo and Sam to inch slowly to their destination it does present a problem because how do you make Frodo and Sam as interesting so people aren't skipping how do you do that and did they succeed yeah I think I think so yeah I think visually you're right that you definitely are distinctively seeing different environments there um and yeah so of course the introduction of Gollum there is really I think what helps you keep those two world separate and engaging and entertaining um the tensions that are created there that are you know that are kind of slightly different than the books in terms of kind of your triangular relationship between Gollum Frodo and Sam um because Gollum I think I think the two hours actually keeps closer to the book we haven't got to attend the King it diverges a lot there but there is already tension in the books between Frodo having empathy for Gollum Gollum and I think from from this and I think yeah so maybe to clarify I want to think in the the films I had greater empathy for Gollum in the films and how they set Gollum up and I think in part is the character design right so he's uh you know he looks sad and sorry and he has giant eyes right so right and in the in anti-circuses incredible performance uh of Gollum and then you see and again like you're saying with the dialogue or it's it's I don't know what you call a monologue with yourself where you're actually two distinct personalities a mono dialogue um internal dialogue um but he's you know that going back and forth the the seeing Gollum and and and in Elijah Woods uh Frodo you just like being able to tell by looking at him his pity for Gollum I think I picked up on that more so in the films it was easier for me to see visually um and I got a greater feel for that then in the books uh how it's described yeah I I felt like it came across more than I can and again I think perhaps that might just because the film is a visual medium and it's easier for me to respond and react to something that I'm seeing that looks like me actually visually in front of my eyes so but yeah I think I absolutely agree with you that uh that Gollum talking to himself anti-circuses performance just really elevated that character of of Gollum and I think that's what is interesting I think helps carry the salmon Frodo parts more is the is that element I mean the other thing to mention of course is that the books um do the first half book three in Tolkien's count which is the first half of the two towels is all the other characters and book four is Frodo and Sam and so what they've done is they've chopped it all up and then put it back in more or less sequential order though I think perhaps um the the point they finish a little bit early um just because the way Tolkien's written it the point at which the two I'm going a bit on going on too long but basically they've changed the timing so the stories run together on the same timeline whereas Tolkien sort of did uh here's a bit of this story here's a bit of that story um and I think that helps by putting it one after the other because you are then having the thing where you've got one kind of tone and palette and color and then you swap back to that and then you never forget Frodo and Sam so that was a good choice yeah agreed okay so we've got some new um characters to well cultures really to mention um we thought you started talking about Rohan were you happy with the way that was realised um in particular I think looking at the big three when Emma and Theoden the way they were characterised there were some interesting um your discussion about magic in our previous broadcast the way they explained the third in possession I think was an interesting change yeah yeah yeah absolutely you know agreed and that was you know one of those other visual elements that took me out momentarily was you know theodins kind of transformation from this you know Hori quite bearded you know almost like father time grumpy father time figure to then you know his beard kind of shortens magically and you know his hair color changes um but yeah I I think there you're the depictions of them they're they all give powerful performances um yeah uh AMR right uh in his you know sadness and the tragedy of him kind of being exiled uh in a sense there was really um really effective effective uh for for me and then uh AON what she's struggling with there um the slight change in AON been her in in regards to her relationship with Aragorn at something we'll probably talk more about is kind of the a little shift in um what the emphasis is that the the screenwriters chose to kind of highlight and elaborate on maybe a little more um that was something that from the film again just reading or not reading the books until after I'd seen the two towers um it seemed consistent and and made sense but now yeah going and looking at the uh uh the source material and being more familiar with that then you do lose something in you know in emphasizing the particular aspect of AON namely her kind of wholehearted of I don't know obsession or devotion to Aragorn is um you lose you lose a little bit more of this you know incredibly powerful uh kind of independent uh spirit that uh wins arguments and is a force to be reckoned with in her own right I think you lose a bit of that sense by kind of tying her um sense of self to Aragorn so much in the film she does have you know she does fall for him she falls for what he represents but I think that they try to give her a bit more air time by putting in some extra scenes and there's a moment where she's complaining um in Helm Street for example which I think is an addition because she wasn't there um so yeah I know what you mean I think they make she feels um yeah she she feels less beautiful in in a way I mean she yeah I think but I don't mind it I think they're they're looking for areas to expand her character aren't they and it also goes to your point that you made in the last podcast about when there is an opportunity to conflate two characters to do one job then do so so the situation where Ermer is sent away um that doesn't happen he's not the one who sent away he's at Helm Steep and it's actually Halberad who and not Halberad um uh Erkenbrand sorry I'm good thanks right who comes uh and he's a you you're probably thinking who who on earth is he uh he's another the world to talk in his bigger there are people you never meet right uh in the films who appear there so that was all a good choice to give that story to Ermer though he does come across as being a little bit churlish uh at times yeah but I think it's fine that's a that's an interpretation what's about so yeah we're mainly thumbs up for Rohan uh they do I think Burnett Hill makes a crack in the extended edition I think it's him about how his armour is so much better than everybody else is but they do look quite poor and impoverished but I suppose an Anglo-Saxon village would have been like that maybe yeah right your king would have had all the the gold leaf um what about the ends it's tree beard your tree beard yeah that's a good that's a good question again so it was uh you know it took me a while to place the voice right John Reese Davies does the voice of tree beard as well so hearing that I was like I know that was one thing was somewhat distracting as I know I've heard this voice before I know I've heard this voice before and then again going back to my uh being raised half on Star Wars half on Indiana Jones was uh yeah sharing John Reese Davies voice then placing that which he has a great has a great voice for it um yeah the character design I really like the character the character design especially like right when you have your uh end to moot right with where you have all of the different uh ends gathering together visually depicting different types of trees you know kind of almost having like one emissary from a different type of of tree different species of tree together so I I really liked what they what they did there um in terms of his uh attitude demeanor I think you know um as I mentioned in the last podcast uh Tolkien's way of writing about nature is you know transcendental uh in his sense right uh it's so his descriptions of the forests and tree beard his kind of depiction embodiment of trees you can tell this is a man who loved trees that Tolkien loved trees right and so it's just a joy to see him give a tree a chance to speak and so and with that uh there's this sense of right the this this wisdom and knowledge that comes from a long life and living life slowly uh which is more kind of aligned on the hobbit end of things right hobbits live their lives slowly right so they're kind of closer to trees and how they experience the world um it seems in a sense then the world of of men and elves well elves have you know again this is possibly a long lifespan but especially with with with men that they're the kind of like action oriented and they have this kind of small scope of vision um and what's happening and what they're concerned with whereas the elves have this kind of long institutional history that they've lived through um so i didn't get that sense of wisdom from tree beard in the film is what all that is to say is that i think yeah that that that was one of the biggest differences i saw was the that he's almost because of how slow he is he seems slow in every sense of the word yeah that's a change which i think isn't for the best which is in the book tree beard is already pretty much decided that they need to do something but um how that would run in a film is tree bids takes them to a meeting they wait outside for a long time and then they decide to go and do something about it so they've added in the jeopardy um of them deciding not to act right and it takes Mary and Pippin to um challenge them and then to bring them to confront them with the damage that uh Sarah man's been doing that's a change and it means that tree beard is less you know tree beard knows he knows he knows what needs to be done uh and he's talked to Gandalf so the decision has put is pretty much from his point of view taken um so he's he's not the book tree beard he's he's a perfectly decent film tree beard but i think if you're thinking you're listening to this and you've only seen the films i would definitely have a look at how the ends behave in the book it's very interesting and the difference is isn't as a great um extra who you meet the young one quick beam and you know what i do like is um the way they all storm eyes and guard i thought how are they going to do this it's just like an impossible thing to realise but i think that is very well realised yeah with all the set pieces of uh breaking the the dam and and how would a tree take on a a building you know he's i think they did a smashing job on that very good okay sort of the final um piece i want to look at in two towers is pharameer and the little trip to osgilia that doesn't happen in the books folks um what happens in the books is Frodo and Sam are taken to um the the cave where the waterfall is and that's where the the confrontation where pharameer happens and pharameer is much much nicer in the book than he is in the film i have a couple of problems in the film here shown as condoning beating up golem and he's also drags them off to gondor he he wants to take the ring now in the book the point is pharameer doesn't he refuse it you know it's they've changed that jelly and that's a really big change it's done script purposes to again add a bit of drama intention they they need an antagonist at this point so okay here's pharameer um it's not much for story if he's just a nice guy who helps them on the way um they have to give him a bit of edge but it means that he's wrenched out of his it's not consistent with the pharameer you then meet again because they've done this to him so i have a problem with that uh in the i think it's really unfair pharameer that he has this sort of pro torture little moment in his life right right yeah not agreed and i think that's your right that that's for you know screenwriting purposes the uh changes in pharameer do help create you know kind of this triangle between denathor boramer and pharameer right so you have that kind of triad where you where denathor is kind of hitting boramer against pharameer um so it heightens the tension and drama there um but you also have in in at the same time trying to give pharameer a character arc right so that's another thing with all of these different characters they feel like they have to have an arc with aragorn um we talked about a little bit last time uh you know he's kind of this unassuming king is we've actually seen the first film that he you know or uh you know Elran says that he's turned away from that path right the path of kingship and that he's is is is hesitant or if not you know waffling on whether or not to actually be king if that's something you know it says he notice this is his right but is that something that he wants to do that he should do um i think they do that you definitely see that more in the films than in the books um and then part of that is to create character arc for him right you need a character arc for every one of these main characters they have to be and you have to make it the largest arc possible to make it as compelling for audiences to follow right so pharameer if you just have him as you know this kind of paragon of virtue and loyalty um and justice then you you don't get as much an arc for him as a character you get him as kind of a static character which isn't as engaging and so if you want him to have more screen screen time he has to be making some sort of change across scenes and so here yeah i think i think that's part of the purpose so you there's definitely a different feel for the character in the book as opposed to the film and sometimes where i think you understand a bit more in villainizing denathor right so denathor instead of coming across in the books as just kind of a resigned kind of cold leader who has to who does what's necessary recognizes that he he has to face a loss and then it's kind of managing that loss as opposed to kind of an actively evil obviously almost villainous kind of bent here in the in the films in doing that you're you know that character kind of almost elicits that it seems from pharameer um that the pharameer if he who has to live up to this particular version of his father yeah there's a good thing with um the the original time they take Osgiliath with Boromir doing a speech and then the brothers together and then the father comes along it's it's a very good extra scene sort of establishing that trio i like that very much that scene i i just wish they hadn't done the beating up of golem yeah and that plays differently now too as well so then looking at that 20 years later with you know the the discouraging public discussions about torture right military torture and in this place or not or you know the ethics of that um in interrogation so that that's that yeah that definitely reads differently now than did it and it did and it read and it read you know shocking and uh yeah and and wrong i think at the time but even more so now as the world and the conversations that we're having today have have changed um in our emphasis i think seeing that scene yeah it's definitely you're seeing that as you know an analog almost for police brutality that exists right and is it a serious problem and so that does it certainly the extra you know the sort of conversations that we're having in terms of what's happening in the world today it's impossible to divorce that from our experience watching these films and so now it's nothing wrong at that point i mean no we have something wrong in the past but as far as far I mean i know he's he's just being roughed up because he looks a bit okay yeah because of how he looks exactly exactly right or or he is he's visited that pool right but he said that they established in the film that this is this pool that the you know the the the the consequence is dead oh yeah that's right yeah yeah that's right yeah sorry so there is so you do have at least some justification you know you know you're set up in the film of this is an important they don't just describe why right some sort of sacred pool and that if you enter and take something out of it right that if you if you're there then keep it keep it there um HQ secret right okay yeah so it's dead right right right so there's yeah so that's what i think so that that that's what provides at least their the justification for that i think for the characters but from the audience i think yeah it's hard it's hard to buy in or be sympathetic toward him standing there watching this poor little frail creature with huge eyes get pummeled yeah so there we go um this is the the scene um future script writers that it'd be great if you could read if you're going to give Farmer a character up what would you do what what what what you're you know decide a different one and haven't got that because we think this one is a bit of a not quite not quite hit the target there right so again there is so much to talk about in all these films which is a lot of the pleasure of them but we've come towards the end of the two towers and we're going to leave on the cliffhanger as the film does not knowing how it's all going to end so we always have a sort of little moment where we think wherein all the fantasy world is the best place for something and we've talked about tree beard so Jacob if you were tree a sentient tree would you like to find yourself in yeah well and i have to you know bracket middle earth for that so this is outside of middle earth just because how can you because obviously you agree in middle earth yeah i would be i would absolutely be there in the middle earth as Tolkien himself describes it but outside of that i think um it's not so it's somewhat fantasy um or it's kind of a borderline fantasy with magical realism um have you read a monster calls um by patrick ness yeah based on warmed out concept um exactly yeah yeah yeah so um uh the tree there are kind of the the monster the titular monster in a monster calls that you tree uh that landscape and what what he does um and for those of you hemorrhid i highly recommend it and especially the uh the original illustrated version illustrated by jim k has some gorgeous illustrations that really add to this um it's essentially a story about uh right the power of uh stories to help us understand our lives and to cope with tragedy and loss right um so deeply moving story uh but it's facilitated by this utri who tells a series of stories to this child who's coming to terms with uh you know his mother's uh terminal cancer um and so just how and the the i loved the book and then the film i don't know if you've seen the film adaptation of monster calls it's it's well worth seeing it's written by um patrick ness he does the screenplay and there's some elements that he adds that kind of amplify the story from the book that he adds to the screenplay so there's a really interesting example of a book that's great in an adaptation that is that is at least as good as the book in part because the author of the book is also the author of the screenplay but this the way that this this character is depicted Liam Neeson voices uh the tree so you have uh i don't know if it's kind of secondhand aslan uh vibes that kind of are coming through uh from visual depictions of animated characters but Liam Neeson's depiction of this tree and this wisdom that this tree has in being kind of harsh but also loving right kind of being firm and a world where trees can interact with little boys and help them through difficult times i think that's something that this compelling to me again perhaps because i have a a a little boy of my own that uh i would hope i could be a wise tree and in part you know share stories to help him get through uh hard times that he will inevitably and unfortunately experience in his life how about you well i first of all thought a little bit about avatar the world of the avatar but i actually and it's not one i love so my my thoughts went back to um what i read as a child and i don't often think about eony blighten anymore because um either she fallen out of favor or whatever i don't know but um i loved as a child the magic faraway tree stories now i don't know what they'd be like to read now um but what i remember this is this difference they could be good i have no idea um but what i remember is there's this massive tree with lots of people living in it lots of little little like creatures living in it but the best thing about it all is at the top a different world touches the top of the tree and it moves on so the children can climb up the tree and have an adventure but they have to leave before the world moves on or they get stuck that's a bit of jeopardy there and i love the idea of this i suppose it probably in the background there's the the tree of the world and all those sort of mythic trees is influencing that but i i'm memberfinding that a very powerful tree as i was uh i think i won't go back and read it again because i want to keep the fact that it was so amazing still in my mind i don't want to sort of challenge that so the magic faraway tree i'd like to be that thank you so much Jacob and uh i look forward to talking to you about return of the king so thank you so much for having me thank you