Fantasy Subcultures - from Dungeons & Dragons to LARPing - find out more from an expert

Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. And today I'm joined by a very special guest. My guest is Ethan Gilstorf, who has written a fascinating book about the cultures that have grown up around fantasy called fantasy freaks and gaming geeks. So hello Ethan, how are you? I'm well, how are you? Thank you for having me Julia. Very good, thank you. It's so much to talk about coming out of your book and your subsequent career. But perhaps the first thing we should do is just give a little bit of background about yourself and how you fell into fantasy as a young boy where you started your first connections to the whole subcultures that has generated. Great, yeah, I'm a middle-aged guy in my 50s so the origins of this for me go back to the 1970s and that was a time at least in America. I can't speak to the experience in other countries but in America where a lot of the stuff was coming out of the shadows a little bit in terms of interest in fantasy and science fiction. You know, two big events in my world in 1977 were the release of the movie Star Wars and the adaptation of the Hobbit on television in America anyway by the famous Rankin bass cartoon version of the Hobbit. And those both came out the same year and I think I was really I was really completely moved by them. I was very much of a sort of a dreamer and a fantasy oriented kid in some ways. I was I did a lot of reading as a kid was into art and fantasy sort of took I wouldn't say it was something that I had really understood as much about in terms of like it being a genre. But we you know we were big family readers and ultimately I think around the same time we're shortly about a year after having seen those movies and TV shows I was introduced to the game Dungeons and Dragons which in 1978 was 79 which is you know a while ago is only in its infancy but it was spreading word of mouth across America and that was really how I got hooked. That was maybe in some ways a gateway drug to other things once you learn about Tolkien and you learn about Dungeons and Dragons. You know you're reading science fiction at least I was other fantasy authors sort of you know come into come into play. But yeah it's a very different era I mean there was also video games happening at the same time but those were also in the infancy. So all of these interesting cultural forces were beginning to percolate and I was not in a big city I was in a small town in in New Hampshire which is about an hour north of Boston. So it's kind of the hinterlands it wasn't particularly interesting place to be in terms of you know intersecting with any this stuff it just kind of percolated through through through word of mouth you know mail order things like that you know there was obviously no internet or anything like that at the time so it was kind of remarkable that this stuff kind of made its way to me in my little town. You know in 1978 79. Yeah so I'm actually pretty much your exact contemporary. Yeah so I think I think judging. I'm 55 if that helps. Well I'm 52 so just a few years. There we go. Yeah and I remember hearing rumors of this game Dungeons and Dragons but I don't think that I knew anyone who played it and I got a sense it was more of a boys club at that time. So no one invited me and I think I would have really enjoyed it from the descriptions in your book would you like to just for those few in the world who have no idea what Dungeons and Dragons is could you just just describe what kind of technology it uses for a start because I think that's faster. It's I mean it's funny you say that technology because it is it is really one of the most rudimentary non technological games but because I think of the modern understanding of sort of fantasy and video games I think we assume that Dungeons and Dragons you know is sort of a video game but ultimately it really was just a. Had its origins as a tabletop role tabletop war game really a miniature game little miniatures which you know traditionally we're used for a sort of battle reenactment style gaming and and some folks decided to honestly they were people who were reading token and they were reading other fantasy authors and they thought that there might be a way to sort of blend this idea of a strategic game with a narrative experience that would maybe. It's a good example I always used to try to describe it you imagine you're reading Lord of the Rings but at various times you're making decisions about what. What the characters are doing so in the game Dungeons and Dragons the traditional version which you're absolutely right. Fairly and unfairly I think is as game that the sort of reputation is being a boys club I would we'll talk about this more later I'm sure but now it's much more inclusive back in the day there weren't that many. You know girls are women playing but it definitely appeals to sort of the nerdy person who loves rules because part of the game is is sort of codifying a lot of rules about what might happen in a fantasy world but also the sort of actor story teller writer you know type who wants to tell a story so. The game basically is you sit around with your with your friends in one person who's sort of the referee who's sort of the narrator of the story and introduces scenarios plot books if you will and then the characters who have chosen sort of archetypal characters that really do come out of sort of Lord of the Rings and other kinds of fantasy. And the Hobbit and other kinds of fantasy tropes you know there's a wizard there's you know warriors there's thieves you know sort of Gandalf and and and Bilbo and you know they're there in some ways in the sort of DNA of the game and each each person around the table plays one of these characters and. You sort of respond to what the dungeon master who's the referee tells you is happening and you describe as a group what you want to do and then you get to roll dice I have a version of the largest version of the diet like this is a sort of model version but this is the sort of iconic 20 sided die which was this sort of innovation you know most dice are six sided you know the ones you would use to play whatever board game you grew up playing with. So the ideas you'd have these charts and tables you consult and and given at a certain juncture in the story you you would say I would like to do X or Y like to try to stab the spider and the dungeon master will say well roll your 20 sided die add some numbers to it tell me what you get and so there's a there's a there's a sort of rule mechanic to it that is sort of. Has its roots in in in like really sort of arcane complicated board gaming but then the other side of this is very open and did storytelling game where things kind of happen and unfold in real time and. You know no one wins or loses you just sort of you live on to the next adventure I mean it's really more of like episodic things that happen in the game that where you to record it you might actually have the basis of like some kind of script or you know story that would actually be would resemble more than all really than a. Then again if that makes any sense so we're always looking for connections to sort of creativity in the sort of writing sense here and what fascinating what you're describing is is it sounds like very similar to a kind of plotting exercise you would do as part of a creative writing exercise with a class in fact we did something like this last night. Yeah and those die remind me of you seen story cubes you can get them in very similar I mean they don't use numbers but they tend to use like the images and. You use them to sort of set up a plot you give people sort of six random things the skull of the sword you know off you go and tell the story and I think that this idea of adding in the random chance element of the the dice really unlocks creativity because you may have. It's sort of plotted that you are totally going to smash that spider and then you and what is what's a low score for Dungeons and Dragon role is it sort of correspond to low numbers. Yeah basically the higher the number the more successful the better you are doing something the lower than ever the sort of you know more likely that you will fail. So I love the idea that you might be this really buff worry and you and you go in with your sword high and you get a two. Yeah exactly exactly. Yeah and conversely if you're if you're this is what this is where I love the because I'm such a token or I love the parallels between you know. Token did such a good job of choosing for his heroes sort of every people every day people you know every the every man the every woman you know fertile billbell sort of not heroic seeming characters other characters in the books absolutely. He men and he women and like real sort of intentionally powerful you know capable people but both those characters are kind of. Reluctant and you know bumbling in the wrong way and have to sort of find their way to their heroics and I think the game is Dungeons and Dragons models that a little bit partly because if you roll this dice and you get a die and you get a 20 you always succeed so you could be literally like shooting that arrow into the one spot in the dragons armor that's you know. You know the weak spot and you can have success at the same time if you roll a one you can you trip over your sword and you know fall down the stairs and you know bang your head or whatever so there's always this element of chance which which does I think. That's what makes the game exciting it isn't just sort of anything can happen you don't just sort of tell the story. Well that certain certain people do do play role playing games that are really almost purely story based where there's very little consulting of dice or rules per say and others which are much more sort of much more feel to the rules and really get as a kid as a teenager when I played this game I think we spent a lot of time arguing about the books the rules about sort of interpreting rules that was very important to a 15 year old boy you know. In 1980s for three or whatever that was that was those were important like battling having those battles with your friends about like how to interpret this world interpret these you know turf battles over over knowledge and basically. And I suppose the other thing which strikes me looking at it from an outsider's point of view is the idea of your sitting almost showing a shared. And a vision of the fantasy world everybody will have a slightly different version of. What that is in their imagination but your. You're all going on this journey together and conjuring up in your own minds and that's I think. And then having it held over from week to week so this carries on as a little secret world you're sharing. Exactly and I think that was the peel of it as a kid was that this was something that no one really understood and it was sort of secretive. And as you said we each surprisingly I don't remember talking amongst my friends about like what did you picture your head you know it just was a thing experience that we shared. But I think when people hear about D&D you know the sort of what brand name brand named abbreviation or acronym for the game I think they think about it well there must be some visual representation of it must be bored or there must be. And there are maps and things like that but but they're really just sort of helping to sort of orate yourself in space you can sort of see where. Where you are where your characters might be you can have little miniature figurines if you want to but really you don't need any of that and you certainly don't need screens you don't need to ripage you don't need. You know a digital version of it although there are digital versions of this game but to me those are to my mind aren't as. I'm interested in what's happening up here as you said we're all playing together we all have our different versions and our imaginations just like when you read a book you know you have a different version in your head of what the characters look like or what the world looks like or what the scene is like. And I that that part I love yeah. So you mentioned in your book and you've mentioned already today that you're a talking nerd. And in your book you say that you came to talking and had what I would came to not came to talking came to Oxford sort of on your search to find to revisit after some time of being away from this world to go back and find the roots of what inspired you as a youngster. So you have to be disappointing time which I'm really sorry about because there's so much potential here to actually find the sources of middle earth that's partly why I'm doing this center because I felt we like any kind of expression of that it's a funny place. Anyway so talking for you has been there from the beginning is it something or a novel series that you return to now or if you do feel you know it so well that you don't need to. Oh I do return to it I mean I think I think I'm a I would say I'm I'm a huge fan I'm not sure that I am quite like an expert super fan in the sense that I don't I don't know every corner of the world and I you know there's lots some of his works that I haven't haven't read or have a dug into entirely but but the core books for me you know the Hobbit the Lord of the Rings those are ones that I've read many times I've obviously seen the movies many times very interested in. I have been always interested in because I was interested in filmmaking at a certain point in my life as well which is also part of this story is like at the same time that I was watching Lord of the Rings and Star Wars I was trying to make movies with my little supreme movie camera that you know my mom gave me so that's always been an interesting. Sort of question or you know idea in my head is like how do you how do you adapt something that's essentially a literary work into these other other media but you know it it's funny it I find that certain pop cultural or literary works for me have. This sort of outsized you know influence or importance on my life in terms of how I see the world and. I find myself quoting certain characters from the books at different times sort of as my models or as my sort of you know words of wisdom you know I think about you know things that gone about would say or I think about something that you know I have these very weirdly because I've seen his movies and read these books for so many times. There's certain certain moments or scenes that I return to you know in my head a lot it's interesting it's it's it's it's I think I think as I mentioned in my book you know I discovered these things around the same time that that my mom you know suffered this really terrible traumatic brain injury and I as I talk about in my book you know there's no coincidence that this was appealing to me at the time and I think I've locked these two events you know this sort of. You know tragic story of my mother where that began in my discovery of these fantasy worlds at the same time in my life and they really they really are sort of fused in there in this really you know inseparable way. So yeah it's it's a really interesting you know as I talk about my book I was not always fully engaged in this and I kind of stepped away from it for many years. And then in my late 30s you know early 40s kind of got back into it again and back when maybe it was a little less safe to talk about like your interest in fantasy or science fiction that was publicly you know amongst my cool friends that felt like we were into independent music we were into independent movies we weren't into you know nerdy pursuits but all that's changed you know I view you know and also I I don't care anymore people think about me but you know that that's also part of it and maybe you you've had that experience as well. In your social circles usually where you there are times maybe in your life you felt more or less comfortable to to share that stuff with people that you knew and you know cared about because of their potential their reaction you know or or your own feelings of of uncertainty about it. Well I think there's been a big change because I did literature at university and I wanted to do I did like a third year thesis on talking and Lewis but it was very much regarded as taking a sort of you know a strange bypass not. Whereas now looking at the next generation my son is now studying English at university and now talking on the syllabus and there has been a shift in those decades which I think is great because well obviously I think is great because when you look at all the great stories in the past they're mostly fantasy anyway just because they're called I know the fairy queen or the tempest you know they're all fantasies so there we are. Yes that's a good point yeah yeah I think that's I mean I think that's an important shift right because it it in the end it doesn't you know obviously we you and I agree about this but there's no there's no accepted you know genre still people and stories and emotions and you know stakes and all the things that we love and good writing Tolkien's challenging is a writer I found him really hard as a teenager to read actually. Yeah exactly so one of the things I really appreciate appreciated about your book there is the your own heroes journey in it and talking about this very difficult relationship tragic relationship that you had with your mother and but also with your younger self in a sense as you look back at that boy and I want to spoil spoil too many of the big moments but I. Let's see if it was moved by the the last section in New Zealand where you go back to like visiting Lord the Rings yes movie lights and and thinking about the whole of what what you'd gone through but I would recommend you book to I went by paraphrasing but you also on that quest on that journey you go through all the different sub cultures that were around at the time. And we're talking about the sort of 2000s aren't we which is exactly the research for this book and so let's start with people who do live action role playing right different forms what did you think of that community once you were exposed to their way of doing it compared to your own dungeons and dragons self as a teenager which presumably you didn't work costumes. No, I mean I think it's interesting because of course most kids do dress up you know make believe stuff when they're little but that in a certain point that's that's typically you know you put those costumes away except that at Halloween time right and and absolutely what's interesting about larping or live action or playing live larping is that the theater of it or the sort of storytelling happens in real time in and in costume and and you know I think as I talk about in that chapter of the book it's. For me felt like an additional level of immersiveness and commitment to this expanded experience that I you know at the time felt very ambivalent about I was like okay I played dnd but am I going to really dress up in a costume and run around in the woods with a foam rubber weapon you know and and be people over the head with it. But I really I really admire those those groups and I haven't done much with that since then although you know every every so often you see you see groups around or you hear of here of events that are happening in different locations it's it's a really I mean I think if I were if I had heard about it as a teenager and I was sort of introduced to it as a kid because I was also becoming a bit of a theater person as well in high school. I would have totally gone for it but it just wasn't something that we've heard about or you know we haven't reached it's aside from the society for creative an acronym which is also slightly different version of live action role playing is obviously has roots in different different sort of thread of all this. But yeah it's it's like a lot of these subcultures I think the the folks involved in it are so both ordinary people and also just extraordinary in their ability to sort of do this and this is like their for some of them like their life you're at least certainly every weekend or many weekends out of the year they're they're going off somewhere you know to a camp or somewhere in the woods or a college campus or something. To do these like any like any committed you know person with a passion or hobby you know it's it's their weekend life you know for for a portion of the year. Yeah I mean we shouldn't really make it that different from surfing or no not at all or drone flying I mean lots of people have really absorbing hobbies. I think that's exactly what's interesting I found in your descriptions of the larping communities you've got those who do a very fantasy based version of this what I'm more familiar with over here in the UK is people who do the historical reenactments great friend of mine like to go and spend her time in I think it was a. I need your early early tech. And my husband there so she was really interested in the craft aspect of it you know weaving and the baking and that kind of thing so it's the stripping away and going back to a very basic form of life for a weekend or a couple of weeks. Yeah which I'm sure is part of the attraction to the fantasy based ones as well because there's lots of skills involved in that yes but you've got another element of a fantasy creature who isn't new on top of it. Yes yeah exactly because in the United States in particular there's a huge interest in civil war history and revolutionary war history where there's lots of groups that do these reenactments as well they reenact battles where they just go to these camps and hang out sometimes as educational or it's connected to some kind of historical site where you know there's sort of people in costume but it would never be considered fantasy you know and I think that's interesting is that community from what little I know of it is. It's definitely hobby it's a passion but it's not considered in the same category as larping and yet there are they share some some commonalities they're not necessarily playing characters are advancing a story but they are you're right there's all it's all about maybe for them like it would be for me wouldn't be great to live in a time when you had to cook your food over a fire and you know shoot your foot shoot your food with a musket and you know the fantasy of living in a simpler time and I think that's always that's always a huge. It's just a pile of all this stuff as you said but then layer it with but what if there were goblins and giants and wizards and you know this larger story and as an actor in this story I could have agency in you know being heroic or changing you know changing the plot in some way or changing the fate of my group of people you know my comrades. I think you also have to be able to push your imagination a bit further because yeah you know the people living in our age villages were pretty much like us whereas if you say I'm an L right you know yes I'm not convincing it off I'm not tall and slender and my my is I'm pointy so even so I'd have to really. Like an actor assuming a role I would have to really buy into that and I think that's what that community has it's it's like. Like an actor who doesn't break character as all to Daniel Day Lewis version right yes of this which I think is admirable I'm not sure in your in your book you find I felt very much on your side with your sort of moments of oh what am I doing here and what's my character in this book. It's my character and it's my costume really rubbish I was very relatable. Yeah yeah good good for me as the writer as the sort of you know protagonist of my own memoir to play off of those insecurities that I have already it's just transposing to another you know it could have been me at the high school dance wondering how my dress. What am I dancing any good you know me at the larp you know how my dress am I fighting any good you know same same thing but but it's more risky I mean for me personally anyway that kind of stuff is yet another level of immersion that that maybe less less is more is for some people would be less risky or seem less sort of. Outlandish and for others would be something they would never do in a million years sort of like those dinner those dinner parties you might host for a friend where everybody you know like a murder mystery thing you get these kids in the mail and never has to play a character for the. For the night I mean that's sort of like probably most people's understanding of both a role playing game and a kind of a larp I mean that's sort of like what. People's understanding of that might be or maybe Halloween trick or treat night you know at least in the States where. You're not really playing a character but there's permission to be someone else for for a night and that sort of have fun with that well it's it's the old tradition of carnival isn't it where yeah exactly exactly and. I actually loved the I haven't aware of what a big community it is in the States you know thousands and people turning up for these camps on a regular basis really checking out and relaxing in I think yeah I just love the idea that it exists. Yeah yeah yeah so yeah particularly the particularly the society of creative anachronism which is the one that's been around for such a long time it's not exactly larping but they have these camps where yeah as you said thousands of people can be part of these events and. Which which maybe someone from the old world is curious to you where whereas from Americans perspective the idea of pretending you're in the medieval ages. It's such a fantasy right because we didn't have the history here in the United States you guys have that there you know but I don't know that plays into it at all. I'm sure that exists here I probably just ignorant yeah it does yeah but I think the the scale of it is bigger yes in the States is my like America it's the scale of every is big in America unfortunately yeah. Ethan there's so much to talk about but moving on from sure. And then we get into the world of video gaming or whatever we call it these days and your book finishes in around 2007 2008 it's that kind of. Yeah yeah yeah so that's what you're looking at and of course the technology with the headsets and everything is moving on but I think the old yes. Absorption aspect is exactly the same with young people we're not just young people and spending more time online sometimes than in real life I I R L is that the exactly right in real life yeah. So what is your feeling about that community because again it's a community not only does it have its virtual daily contact but they too have conventions and yeah. Yeah yeah does in the rest of it yeah and I think what's interesting to me about about the explosion of that is of course people. 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Jerryeroo who writes about quantum physics and student history. Because in a sort of a non, you know, an activity people can do together and have a kind of common objective and a common language or a common experience, like watching a movie together, you know, for me as a middle-aged person, that's not something that I'm curious or interested in spending a lot of my time doing, but I'm really fascinated by how that has, you know, really captured the imaginations of so many people. And of course, I think, as I mentioned somewhat in my book, too, the sort of success of that genre has so much to owe so much to Tolkien, owe so much to Dungeons & Dragons. Some of these early versions of these fantasy experiences that sort of lay the groundwork for the ability of these games to exist, right? Particularly ones where you're playing characters and you're going into worlds in advancing through levels, you know, that sort of slightly more immersive narrative, you know, long-term where you might play for weeks, you know, months, you know, to kind of get through and get through this sort of experience. So it's very clear that the people creating these games, the the coders and the artists and the renderers and everybody are hugely creative. Yes. But as the consumer of it, compared to the person who's laughing, sort of inventing their character with a certain amount of free will, if you allow me, that term, let's call it free will, compared to the person doing it in a game which is in an within the confine to somebody else's vision, how creative do you think it is to play a game like that? Yeah, that's a great question and I want to be careful in how I answer because I don't want to be perceived as sort of being judgmental or saying like this experience is a better experience, you know, than this experience. In the end, you know, it's entertainment and like a lot of experiences that maybe don't intentionally empower people, these kinds of games can be very empowering to people, particularly younger people or people with maybe neurodiversion people or people who might need a place to park their brains for a while and decompress. I mean, those are all such great uses of those games, also just to have fun, to do something fun by yourself or, you know, with your friends. But you're right in that, a criticism that you could love you, love you against these is that on the hierarchy of like most imaginative, most, you know, sort of creative for the, for the consumer or for the user to least. I mean, you might say that reading a book is somewhere in the middle, you might say playing, making up your own story is the highest, you know, being a writer or playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons and maybe being a participant in an existing world that a programmer's, well, not a programmer, hundreds, thousands of, of coders have created this experience. You know, it's still activating your imagination and you certainly might believe go places in your mind or in your heart, you know, as you play these games. But it's, it's surely different than a different experience than, than making those choices yourself, whereas we were discussing earlier, imagining what the, what the world looks like in your head versus having it visualized for you. And that's sort of why, one of the things I talk about in my TED talk, you know, about Dungeons and Dragons, why Dungeons and Dragons is good for you in real life is, is this idea that one of the beauties of that game, or also maybe in a way reading a book is that all of that has to happen individually, privately, that's a very different experience. You know, you're a reader of books, so you know what, you know what I'm talking about and it doesn't have to be a fantasy book, it's just any book you read, or any story that you, you try to tell, you're, you're surely activating, you know, different parts of the brain than, than where you just looking at a book of pictures or watching a movie, as much as I love movies, I mean, I, you know, don't get me wrong, I love Lord of the Rings that I've seen those movies in a million times and I love, I love that experience as well of having it sort of created for me and being a sort of passive consumer of this existing narrative that someone else has done all the work for me, you know, they're, they're bringing me along, guiding me by the hand through this experience. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, to me, that stuff is really fascinating to, to think about, to my mind, it's a lot about balance and I wouldn't want to only play video games and I wouldn't only want to read books, I'd want to be able to, you know, be able to jump in and out of both. I think it's also quite good to jettison from the version that you get from a film, and it's quite easy to do with Lord of the Rings in a way because if you go back to the original text, you find that actually Frodo's in his 50s. Right. You know, that, and in fact, the relationships are more of a period piece master, sir, I mean, once you sort of, you say, okay, I'm aware of the landscapes and the visions, but the book is different, you can hopefully strip away, it's not a larger word, who's your Frodo, it's your own Frodo. Exactly, exactly. But just going back to computer games, I, yeah, sure, I think that there is an exciting development in that people are now able to, like in the Minecraft world, actually go in and, and invent. It's as though there's an element where writers have an alphabet and musicians have a musical notes that computer games are coming to the point where people can have the ability to code and create and build, which I think is great, because that makes it even more creative. To be honest, I haven't, there's only so many hours in the day though, and it's not the place I've chosen to put my creativity, but I can see how to somebody else it might be. Yeah, and I think that Minecraft has a great example of this. I mean, of course, you know, it's easy to put all the video games in to say, you know, video gaming is this sort of monolithic thing, and of course, it isn't. It's diverse, and there's big games that get lots of attention, and some of them are, you know, sort of predictable, or, you know, sort of rely on predictable narrative tropes. As I mentioned earlier, you know, the view is running around and sort of killing things, if you will, or, you know, defeating things. But Minecraft is such a great example of the game that isn't that, and it's in a way, surprising how popular that is because it doesn't rely on, you know, the typical game environment or kind of game design, which is about about racking up, you know, points, and in the sense of, you know, killing things, or whatever. And what games that are like that are also, you know, they have, for every big game that you would think would be, you know, sort of, you know, get the lot of the attention. There's thousands of independent game makers, and, you know, there's all in the scene where there's all flavors of games that you can have that are very subtle, or very lyrical, or very story-based, or very participatory in different ways, you know. And I'm not saying those are the ones that your people are hearing about necessarily, but they exist in the same way that literature has the big, heavy hitters, and then the ones that are more, more, you know, independent driven and gaming as well. Dungeons and Dragons like games is a similar thing happening there. Of course, the ND is really become prominent as the sort of brand that everybody's heard about, but there's hundreds of other games that are similar to it that cater to other people's needs or other people's desires that other people's, what they like to play in the game. And that's what's beautiful about, I think, what's happened because of the internet, because of YouTube, because of Kickstarter, you know, all the stuff is possible now, small, smaller producers can create content that can find an audience, may not be as popular as, you know, some of these big mega properties and IPs, but nonetheless, they can find, you know, they can match themselves up with a ready-and-willing audience. Okay, so this is, we've been very positive about all of these. Let's dig down and do some of the problems of it all, which you don't duck in your book at all. So there's an element when I looked at what you were describing in all of these worlds of using stock characters. Now, there's nothing wrong with stock characters. They're usually are behind well-developed literary characters, somewhere in the background. But for example, looking at those which are given visual expression, you get what's wasted women with enormous breasts and guys with rippling biceps. And it's a very, it seems to me as though there is an element of, I don't want to be myself, I want to be this impossible version, which was never actually opened to anybody except perhaps Arnold Schwarzenegger. So do you think that there's a possibility of this living as somebody else when you're actually just an ordinary person? Can it be dangerous? Can it put a fracture in the psyche? Or is it actually a good place to go? Yeah, I think that's a really great question. And I think it's something that, you know, when people worry about the dangers of these things, whether it's used to be that people worried about the dangers of Dungeons and Dragons back in the 70s and 80s, it's gotten this reputation of being dangerous in the same way that heavy metal music was dangerous in the same way that comic books are dangerous. You know, everyone's worried about warping the minds of young people and giving them a distorted sense of reality or a sense of what the future is like. And you're right, I think that that, you know, we identify with our heroes in a book and at least the ones where those heroes are sort of positive. Who can, who have agency, who can do things. And I think it's a natural experience we have as readers or players of anything, a game or reading a book or watching a movie where we, what I'd love to be Vigil Mortensen, you know, in this fantasy life. Yes, you know, is he incredibly, you know, attractive character yet troubled? I mean, that's just interesting his maybe a good example of a very heroic, you know, outwardly sort of, you know, very attractive character or, you know, character type, but who himself has got his issues. I think for me, those are always more interesting than the kind of cardboard cutout versions. From a purely physical perspective, I think there has been a lot of backlash about that. And you know, whether it's the Marvel universe or some of these others where the concern is that maybe only the heroes can be white or male or can be these sort of, you know, exemplary specimens of the human human body. Or for that matter, you know, issues around race and around inclusion, you know, around sexual preference or, you know, gender identity. I mean, these are things that the industry as a whole, I think, has struggled with a lot. In fact, there was something I was reading just recently that the most recent iteration of Superman is that there, I think it's either Superman or Superman's son is, you know, one version of one of the comic book, you know, plots is that he'd be bisexual. And, you know, sort of, how is that catering to sort of trends or is that basically saying, no, we're basically saying that, you know, times have changed and that, you know, readers have changed and people's ways of identifying with characters have changed and they're not as judgmental. These are good things, you know, I'm personally more attracted to the characters that are more flawed or are over nuanced that they aren't just, you know, as you said, the Arnold Schwarzenegger. I just recently rewatched the Conan movies from the 1980s because I was curious been a long time since I've seen those. And thinking about the character, even in sort of a not particularly smartly made, you know, fantasy, swords and sorcery kind of movie, I mean, it is really all about just his physical prowess and his good looks and sort of how good he is in battle. There's not much else to that, to that character for some viewers that might be absolutely great and they can go there in their mind and really really identify with that character. Is it dangerous? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, as a woman, I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Does that feel like a gender landmine where you see a female character who, you know, is perceived in a certain way, you know, or only certain types of Hollywood actresses get to be those characters? Yeah, I think that the Marvel universe and DC, in fact, had a problem. They haven't quite got through it yet, which is people like Black Widow and Wonder Woman, not all the way. I mean, they're beautiful actresses and the men too are beautiful in their own way. But you wouldn't want to swing to sort of the fetishization of the male in order to justify doing it to the female. Yes, right. Exactly. Yeah. So, for example, just the thing, I say, well, wouldn't you want to wear a more comfortable fighting outfit than these things? Right. You know, they're just in practical. So, yes, yeah. I think that there's a whole, this is very much, we're just touching here and we can't possibly deal with it properly in the time. But there's a whole issue here about how we are defining gender and the pressures that girls and boys are put under to be a certain form of feminine and a certain form of masculine at the same time as there's a idea that you can redefine and reassess gender. And I wonder if by pushing gender to the poles so that you're some sort of airbrushed beauty at either end of this spectrum means that a lot of people are sort of swimming around in the middle thinking, I don't know which one I am because I'm not that and I'm not that. No wonder everyone is confused. And I think just, well, going back to the hobbits, they're ordinary. Nobody says, gosh, Frodo, you're such a heart. Well, he was a good-looking guy. But in the book, definitely, he's never mentioned what he looks like, particularly other than he's a bit over one boy. So, I think that it's important that people are not forced to feel that they have to achieve some artificial version of what a hero in their gender is or from their race or whatever it is. I would have thought the fantasy is a really good place to do this, though, because the whole lapping community and other people would probably be totally down with people being androgynous and, you know, very much so. So, I would have thought that it's a good place to actually explore all these identity issues without committing yourself to one particular version. Yeah, I think it has been, I mean, I think the high fantasy stuff of, I mean, obviously, not to pick on Tolkien, but obviously, he's a certain gentleman of a certain age and of a certain generation where these ideas probably weren't even on his radar. But yet, I think, in some ironic way, you can identify as an elf. You know, what is an elf in the real world? Well, maybe there's corollaries to being an elf. You know, what is it worth? You know, they have their own identities, which are different from human. And maybe that's partly why a lot of, I think, you could make an argument that a lot of these fandom communities, particularly around the 1960s and 70s, where I think people attracted to role-playing games, or people attracted to larping, or the society for creative and acronyters, and we're showing up in a costume at a science fiction convention, and, you know, even early on in the Star Trek convention, or something, in the 1960s or 70s. I mean, those were accepting communities, people who already felt. Exactly. Yeah. On the fringes. And so, the idea that someone would show up painted green from head to toe, or was a male dressed, cross-dressing as a woman, or whatever that would be, I mean, that's an environment where, on the whole, I think, those communities are quite accepting of people who don't fit into those traditional categories. Now, of course, you know, there's always misogyny and sexism and racism and judgment, you know, in any community, and I'm not saying that it was always easy for those people, but I think that there's a way in which you could argue that those kinds of communities are the people's exposure to the different kinds of fantasy worlds, you know, made it easier to maybe imagine that, you know, in my day to day, nine to five life, I could, I don't need to identify as a human, or a male or a woman, I can find these other, you know, versions of myself, and to me that feels freeing, and it feels, you know, again, I don't know there's, I've no sense of sociologically whether there's any basis for my little theory here, but it seems as if, versus let's say, you know, in your country, you know, people going to see football in my country, people going to see a football game, American football, like you, you have these sort of stereotypes of like certain kinds of people where conformity is really part of the, you know, the experience of, of like attending a sporting event or, you know, being a sports fan, or, you know, certain groups of people that you have any mystery types in their head are like not being particularly open to the idea of people not fitting into predictable roles. Is that because, you know, as a whole, those people aren't reading, you know, fantasy or science fiction, you know, or didn't weren't exposed to this stuff as a kid, I don't know, but it does, it does strike me as maybe people who might be more artistic or more creative or more inclined to be, you know, interested in these worlds through whatever way as a maker, as a consumer, I mean, those are probably people who are on the whole maybe a little more tolerant. I mean, it were a little bit more open to the idea that it's okay, you don't have to fit into this, you know, this, this slot, you know, there's room for, for you to find your own place. And to its credit, I think a game like Dungeons & Dragons, which is as you probably observed is, you know, I don't know what, what you know about it from pop culture, but it's from my perspective, it's this incredibly hot property, and a lot more people are playing the game now than ever before, and it does seem like the game has very cleverly addressed that issue by making it, building into the rules that this is a, this is a community that is welcoming, you don't have to be just a guy, you know, it was never true that only men played, but certainly majority of men only played, and now it's open, or at least they're branding themselves as being, as being open to all players, all kinds of players, they're encouraging, the character you play to be, you know, have different gender identities, and sexual preferences, and tricky questions are on race, you know, we're being addressed, which I think is really great as well, you know, the orcs and the goblins were always evil, and they were always dark-skinned, and the sort of good people, you know, were always sort of, you know, fair and white, and you know, that's a trope that we don't need, you know, with some exceptions, that's a trope that we don't need to. I think Peter Jackson tried to turn that round by making his chief, orc bad guy in the Hobbit was clearly sort of pallid. Right, exactly. Yeah, you can do it just by makeup, hair and makeup off you go. Exactly, exactly, yeah, and yet this stuff is, you know, it's, these works are so popular that they have a certain cultural, you know, currency out there. I think that it's hard sometimes to people to, to just realize that when conscious, we are all, you know, biased in this way, we, we may just assume that the, you know, the work of the goblet is, you know, has bad intentions, or, you know, is bad. Well, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Because they live underground, and if you think of all those sort of blind fish and underground caves in Namibia, you know, they're all like white looking beaches. So, yeah, you know, just depends what your reference points are. Exactly, exactly. Ethan, just towards coming to the end now, I was wondering, since you've written the book, have you noticed any changes in the fantasy communities, or is, or any, any directions, which have been particularly intriguing to you, on what are you spending your time playing now? Because you leave us a bit of a cliffhanger at the end of the book as to what you're going to do with your fans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think that, that is definitely one, when aspect of the book that I would revise, you know, whether to be an additional appendix or something, because, and this is partly the, the, the, the particular place of time in which I had to stop writing the book in order to get it, get it finished. But, but yes, I mean, I think the book ends with a little more ambivalence about my experience. And, you know, the short answer to the question is, I play, I do play D&D pretty regularly with a group of guys who were similar to me, a bunch of writers in our 50s. Mostly, fortunately, our group is men, not intentionally. It's just kind of the way it's worked out. But, but we play fairly, fairly regularly. Well, I should say, we endeavor to play regularly, but we do, we do sort of have, you know, a monthly-ish meeting or so. Been a challenge with COVID, but we've, we've actually been playing online at different times as well, which is another benefit of, which I would say, I would add to the, your, your second question is like, are the first question, you know, the internet has made it actually easier for people to connect. And I think that's really explained a lot of the popularity of some of this stuff. Different versions of D&D and other kinds of role-playing games. There's lots of online platforms that are facilitating this. And I think that's been a great, that's been a great boon. So, that's something that's really, I've noticed since, since I've written the book that's changed, people are seeing D&D and other old-fashioned, you know, previously dangerous now, incredibly useful tools for teaching kids socialization and problem solving. It was not a, not a brand or a sort of thing that you would say about D&D, you know, certainly back in my, my year. So, that's been a really pleasant. And I would say, you know, important twist of the story is that D&D is fully accepted. And, you know, I think the other, the other thing that I think, and this is just an observation that I didn't talk about much in the book, because it was just beginning. It was, of course, what's happened with the average Americans, or I would say the average citizen who watches movies and TV is that there's so many versions now, more so than ever, of just some kind of fantasy, science, fictional comic book, you know, narrative experience that is just out there. And, you know, Game of Thrones certainly had a lot to do with that. Harry Potter had a lot to do with feeding. Maybe a generation of people who would go on to watch a slightly more adult version of fantasy in Game of Thrones, and it's ill. I mean, I'm sure you have your favorite shows as well. But to me, it's amazing to think that people who wouldn't have normally accepted these kinds of entertainments as worthy of their attention. It just feels like everybody I know is what, even if they're not fantasy or science fiction nerds, you know, they have the casual interest in this stuff, because the production and the storytelling is so good. And the tropes are so understood now and so recognized. Everybody knows these worlds, even if they're not, you know, a super nerd like me or you, they have this passing knowledge right of what happens in these worlds, which I think 10 years ago, you know, people were still just getting to know. So I think, you know, the groundwork that, you know, intentionally or not, the groundwork that Harry Potter, the movies and the books, the Lord of the Rings, the movies and the books, you know, some of these video games, you know, the groundwork that, what they've done, which they did to lay the foundation for a general understanding of like, these worlds aren't scary and they're not places where you have to have like a secret pass to get into. They're just these different narrative experiences with people in funny costumes and pointy years. That's okay, you know. To me, that's really, I'm just amazed to, you know, as someone who felt like only me and my six friends knew about this stuff, you know, back in the 1970s, to think that this is something that everybody shares. I don't know if that's something you observe casually in your intersection with these fandom communities and literature and movies. Well, I kind of took a different route in that I became like a creator, you know, writer. I came the, my own fantasy worlds and it's actually coming back to work out where I got it from, that took me back into sort of exploring this again and starting out the center. So similar, in a way, you did your journey back to see, to see why you became interested in this material. For me, it was a literary quest to work out, who was it, who was there at the beginning and it was definitely talking and see us do this, of course, because before I read Lord of the Rings, I was reading Narnia and that massive, the going through the wardrobe is just the moment, a lot of us experience from we open a book or start playing a game, we go through some kind of mental wardrobe. Yes. So to finish up, we always end our podcast with deciding where in whatever fantasy world you would like to put forward, it could be a book or a game or a TV or movie, where in the world is the best to be or best together? And in your honour, as you've used this on your book, where is the best fantasy world to be a geek? Do you think? Who, where do they have the best time? That's a good question. You can offer where they have the worst time, if you want. I mean, there is quite a few things as well. That's a good question. I mean, I think the answer that immediately comes to mind is only because I personally would love to visit this place is, of course, middle-earth, or, you know, even just a corner of middle-earth, you know, maybe a corner that for me personally, I have this great affinity for, you know, the shire and the places that appeal to part of what those books do for me is like, allow my sort of agrarian, sort of, you know, ledite version of myself to sort of linger, you know, I could be a gardener and I could be happy, you know, being outdoors all day and smoking my pipe and, you know, drinking good ale. I think you're correct. I think we could actually redefine Bilbo as the geek of the shire because he's into all this abstruse elven law and speaking, speaking elvish when all the other hobbits are looking at him and saying all this, like, a bit funny about Mr. Bilbo after that. Yeah, that's a good point. So, yeah, he's been all this time, you know, pouring over his maps and yeah, he is the geek or he and is the outcast in a funny way. He becomes the outcast, he becomes the outcast because he goes on this adventure, right, outside of his community and he comes back, you know, and he infects both Frodo and Sam with his geekiness. Right. They're both able to quote songs and yeah, it gets him into a lot of trouble. For me, that's a very, a better answer than what I'm coming up with, but I was thinking that actually there's a lot of really good geek roles in the Marvel universe. For sure, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. You can be a very bad geek in that universe and that you become the Uber villain, but there's also, you know, lots of places you can work for Tony Stark in his nicer version of Tony Stark perhaps, right? Right. Right. Right. You can be the Hulk. Exactly. It's lots of geeky roles in that in that universe. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it depends. I think a lot of it has to do with how you how you define what a geek is and what kind of be because they come in so many different, you know, so many different flavors these days. Maybe it's for me it's the place where I feel most comfortable being that person and maybe it's surrounded by like-minded people get me or understand this, you know. I think I'm going to throw in, throw back into the pot my Marvel universe suggestion and I'll come and join you at Bagend. Yeah. That sounds good. Read the magazine. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to think about that the sort of, you know, who in the who in the Tolkien universe is the geek? Who is the hero? Who was the, you know, who is the who is the kind of, you know, the Tony Stark or who is the I don't know who is the sort of, sort of, you know, computer nerd? Well, this sounds definitely like a conversation to have if I can lure you back to Oxford for a tour of the places which are like the shy around here. There are plastic villages which would come quite close to and they don't end at the, you know, just because the cameras aren't there, you can go in houses which are actually very much like Hobbit holes. Yes. So, you know, hundreds of year old cottages and things. So do come back and- I would love to. I would love to- I would love to- You mean Chan Oxfordshire for you? No. I mean, I love, I mean, yeah, I may have painted it. I may not have had a good tour guide when I was visiting almost many years ago and, you know, for me, what was so great was just being- was being in the places where I knew Tolkien had had trod, you know, many years before that and of itself was such a, a film, a fan pilgrim like nerd moment, you know, just to think about that. So thank you very much for being with us. You're welcome. It's been a delight and lovely talking to you and- Likewise, I really appreciate you inviting me. I'm really great to meet you and get a chance to nerd out together. Yeah, huge pleasure and thank you everyone for listening. Good night. And your favorite podcasts worldwide.