Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Return of the King Movie Reconsidered

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm the director of the centre, but I make my most of my living as an author, and today I'm joined by Jacob Rennaker, who has come back for a third visit so we can discuss the films of Peter Jackson's version of Lord of the Rings. And if it's number three, where have we reached Jacob? 00:37 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Return of the King. 00:38 - Julia Golding (Host) Oh yeah, well, you see, he's obviously an expert because he gets the question. Yeah, the third one. It took me a second. 00:43 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I was like let me just one, two. 00:44 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, yes, the return of the king, yeah, so what we're doing in these podcasts is looking back with the perspective of the 20 years on. We're thinking particularly about the creative choices, because we're about the writing, really, of these and the filmmaking. So we're thinking about where the room is to do a different adaptation, if anyone's going to take it on in the next decade or so, but also what actually happened back 20 years ago the choices, the casting, the perfect moments and so on. So first of all, Jacob, this is a bit of a softball for you. Where does this come in your lineup of the films? 01:27 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) yeah, three yeah, it's, and yeah, we mentioned this before that the first. It's hard with putting the first and the last and then installment as it wraps up. So ah, yes, I'm, ah, yes, I'll say first, because but only barely edging out fellowship Okay. Right now, at this moment, I will say just right now, and reserving the ability to change that in five minutes from now. 02:01 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay. So for me it's my second favorite, but it has the majority of my favorite moments. So that may seem a bit counterintuitive, but there are also some bits I don't like in it. So you know, it sort of goes in the middle. It's the seesaw point in the middle. So first question for you is what would you say about the overall choices that they made in this, things like how the new culture of Gondor was realized and those long stretches in Mordor, the big things about the film? 02:36 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, those were good. I mean, of course, visually, with Gondor, the set was incredible and I thought, yeah, those are the costuming as well. That really seemed like a unified kingdom. So I appreciated that and that kind of the whiteness of all of that and the shininess of the plate armor. Now, whether or not plate armor was something that Tolkien imagined is, uh, for Gondor might be a bit of a debate, but at least, uh, there was that, you know, just like a shininess, brightness, contrasting you know your scenes of Mordor with darker red, redder palette there. So, yeah, so I thought it was a good contrast. 03:29 But even though you have Gondor, it's still not perfectly white and shiny, right it's. This seems like it's decaying, right, especially with the image of the tree there in that courtyard, you kind of this white, pristine, uh, almost sterilized courtyard, um, but it's, it's kind of falling apart. So I thought they did a good job of showing, contrasting the you know a light and dark. But even with the light, it wasn't an you know kind of unsullied light, it was. You know, there are cracks and fissures, showing that this is a kingdom that's clearly in decline. But juxtaposed to Mordor, makes it, I think, seem brighter by contrast. But still that you see bits of that Mordor, you know the kind of corruption that are there, even in the kingdom yeah, it's very much a bone white, isn't it? 04:21 yeah, right right. 04:22 - Julia Golding (Host) It's the black and white aesthetic to the Great Hall which sets the tone, and I think that it reminds me very much of the abbeys and the architecture of Northern France, even though it's a sort of Mediterranean feel. I believe that they were trying to create particularly places like Mont Saint-Michel, which is clearly an inspiration for the way that ministerial sort of rises up. I think that, thinking back, I didn't think this at the time, but it's something I thought, since One of the things which I feel somebody could do if they're trying to find a room for how do I make this different? Is that Minas Tirith stops very abruptly at the wall, whereas in the book there's a reference to the wall around the field, plus evidence of farming and that kind of thing. 05:21 And if you think of something equivalent in real human history, like the field of Waterloo, some of the skirmishes took place in farmsteads and places like that. So you could actually make it feel more real by actually suggesting a city that is connected to something other than a big grassy plain. So that's the one thing which didn't bother me at the time, and I know that it's much simpler to put CGI on a landscape which is just basically grass, but I did think that there's an element there where it doesn't feel. It feels like a fantasy place rather than a real place. 05:56 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) As a result, yeah, no, I agree, and I think that for me and going back to Two Towers for a moment, I think some of the most affective moments were just tiny moments where you have, at where we got to Rohan and you see villagers that are being terrorized, you see these children being placed on a horse by a weeping mother. It was those, every person who is, what is it like for right? And so you see these children being placed on a horse by a weeping mother. So is those, you know, kind of every person. Uh, who is what? 06:29 What is it like for you know quote, normal people to live in this world, whereas usually we're having this heightened sense of characters. You know it's, it's your aragorns, it's your gimli's, your legoluses, you know, hobbits are kind of thrown in there, but still they're kind of held higher as kind of larger than life characters. But then to see, you know, dirty, weeping mothers who are trying to save their, their children. For me that was, I think, deepened the impact of the nature of the threat and the, the evil that is actually happening here. And so you're right with gondor, if it's just they're all kind of inside of this fortress already, you don't get as much of a sense, so I didn't connect with the people that lived in um, uh, in Gondor. 07:14 - Julia Golding (Host) I, you know, I I wasn't yeah, I'm sure that's a time thing, because there's wonderful material in the book which let's imagine someone's doing a miniseries as opposed to a film. There's the father and son that Pippin meets Beragond Great great. 07:35 And so you see the war from the perspective of an ordinary soldier who has an important role to play in saving Faramir. Important role to play in saving Faramir and his son, who has an important or a little role, but a little important role to help carry messages and, in the end, help save Merry by carrying a message. But it humanizes the war and also Pippin goes with the son to see the arrival of the armies and you get a sense of it being just more than Denethor and Faramir. I mean, there's a bigger society, society. It makes gondor and its surrounding land seem bigger. So again, this is only something you would do if you had the luxury of a bigger palette rather than a film. You've got to get people in and out. 08:17 It's a massive amount of story to tell, but there does seem to me to be some really exciting material that's not covered, uh, which could, could go in the mini series. There we go, right, if there is such a thing in our lifetimes. Um, so that's Gondor. What about the way Mordor is handled? Cause that, I think, is a real challenge, because it's meant to be hard and it's meant to be that just relentless suffering. But putting that into a film, of course means that you don't want your audience to suffer boredom or just the sameness. I think it's, I would imagine it's like probably the most difficult thing to do. So what did you think of the Mordor parts? 09:06 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) yeah, I thought they did a good job of intercutting. 09:08 Uh, you know the two bad struggles that are happening, so I thought that that yeah was, was it was a good use of, uh, yeah, in intercuts to keep the audience from getting bogged down in in that oppressiveness of M, because really that's, I think, the the sense that I got this time when I was watching it was, yeah, a sense of of stuff, you know, kind of a suffocation or oppressiveness, because you can almost the air is hot, it seems like right, and so you're almost drowning in air, uh, and the weight of what Frodo carrying and yeah, so if, if you're so in one way, if you would have just focused on the Mordor portion for longer portions and yeah, right, I can see people that becoming a bit tedious, but I thought the way that they were kind of flashing back and forth between the two events was was good as well. 10:00 As you know, thematically, as it's following some of the those themes of struggles, leadership and then, by contrast as well, with Aragorn as king and leading must have this massive, traditionally epic battlefield where the stakes are actually lower than the smaller-scale battle. That's where the stakes are at their highest or almost cosmic in scope, and so seeing both of those going back and forth juggling those, and so seeing both of those kind of going back and forth juggling those. The dissonance between the weight of the struggle and the degree of the stakes for both of those was something that was more pronounced in my most recent rewatch. 10:57 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I think that one of the things I appreciate is the quite daring but, I think, very good use of little touches of humour in the Hobbit story. I'm thinking of the moment when Sam is going up the stairs to save Frodo from the tower and he's making this sort of err noise which echoes, and they're expecting this enormous warrior to approach and it's just the little hobbit and he strikes a blow for his gaffer. I mean those moments of heroic behavior, but with a lovely sort of smile of the Shire value, I think, a really good way of doing it. There's another moment when they get caught up in, they're mistaken for orcs, and they get caught up in the march and they're trying to escape from the column that's going to the battlefront because it's the wrong way, and Frodo's sort of saying hit me, hit me, and he sort of. It's the comedy of them having this moment where they're using their hobbit intelligence to escape from it and it's, I think, think, very beautifully done, I think. 12:07 Granted, it's difficult material because of its darkness and it's in fact it's just two characters and then you know, obviously, Gollum at the end, but I think that they did really well on that. So, you know, hats off to the script writers and the film people for actually doing that bit. What's interesting comparing it to the book is there are some little moments where they get pursued by named orcs in the book, which I always enjoy reading because they also give you a moment when Frodo and Sam overhear what might be going on outside, which I think is a very good reading experience. But I can see why you may not bother with those as a you don't want to string it out too much. It's hard enough getting to the mountain. I can see the decisions that were taken there. Okay, so, Jacob, what are your perfect moments in the film where you just thought, yeah, this is everything it could have been? 13:10 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) There's, you know there's, yeah, there's, there's, there's a few of those. There's one you know visually, when Frodo, Sam and Gollum come towards the beginning of the film, when they've left Osgiliath and they're passing the statue of the you know defaced king, uh, uh, and you know the, the head of the king is laying on the side there and it's been replaced with some you know iron bound rock. That's just kind of teetering there, um, that was a great depiction of you know kind of what's happening here, the combination that we saw with um, uh, with saruman, with this you know industry, metal, right, kind of artificial, uh, kind of preserving the natural. You know more grand, uh, nature of, of of that world, um, and you see that, uh, it kind of looks horrific. And then you see the head there on the ground. But then Sam points attention to that right and says you know, look, the king has his crown once more. 14:15 - Julia Golding (Host) Right that might be Frodo I think it might be Frodo, isn't it? 14:18 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Is it Frodo? I thought that Sam is mentioning that to Frodo because there's that ray of light that strikes it and Frodo's Frodo's kind of, I think, sullen as he is for most of the film from that point. 14:30 - Julia Golding (Host) I could, I could, I could be wrong. This might be the tiebreaker question between us, wouldn't it? 14:35 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) You know, in our anyway. 14:37 - Julia Golding (Host) one of them says he's crowned again One of them says yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. 14:39 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So. So I think, just that beautiful moment of hope and what's. You know that you're anticipating this kind of like long slog, but then you have that moment and it just yeah, it was visually just this time around just kind of struck me as just kind of a little note of hope to keep you going, knowing where they're going and what's happening there. So that was one of mine. There's a couple other ones, but I'd love to hear one of yours. 15:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, and what's happening there. So that was one of mine. There's a couple other ones, but I'd love to hear one of yours. Okay, so I have this. I said this is one of my favorite film, for best moments In there is definitely the charge of the Rohirrim Just I mean the excitement. I can remember my children when they were younger Well, even now I'm sure they get excited just waiting for the hearing to appear on the horizon. And then that fantastic speech which is from Tolkien, by Bernard Hill Theoden. It's just such a wonderful moment of sort of raises the spirits, sort of raises the spirits, and I think it's that time when film really works. You're caught in it and you are right, you feel like you're riding down the hill with them because the camera work is on a track and it's going really quickly and you feel like you're moving with them. I think that is one of my favorite sequences that's a great. 16:01 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, that one's great. And there's there's a couple of the other kind of army related. One of you know, Aragorn's speech to the soldiers of the black gate is another one. 16:10 - Julia Golding (Host) That always kind of I hate that was that one. 16:15 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) That's one of the hated that's my fail. 16:17 - Julia Golding (Host) I mean talk about you're trying to get people to go on basically a sort of nightmare, probably dying mission and you say, oh, you know there will be a day of shattered spears and you're all going to be horribly killed and everyone's thinking we're going to be horribly killed. Then he says, not that day. And I just I really dislike that. We all howl in my family when that comes on. 16:40 When that happens, oh, so for me that is in the the uh-uh. You should have stuck closer to Tolkien, but you like it. I mean, this is where you see we're trying the point of having a discussion is a discussion right you like that, do you right. 16:56 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I do, yeah, I do. I mean it's, it's a, yeah, it's, it's a failed, you know a failed mission. It's a suicide mission. And just finding some, some sort of hope right that, uh, the day that you're holding right by all the old deer, uh, that you're standing for for, for something, how do you keep somebody's hopes up in the face of the hopeless? I think, yeah, I, I, I like it, I'm, but I'm also easily Persuaded by rousing political speeches, so that could be part of it. Then there's that part After his speech. But then when Aragorn is saying For Frodo and charging into battle, oh, I like that. 17:41 So I see that kind of as a continuation In my mind that exists, there's that speech, and then because then it cuts away from that, but then, uh, I see that mentally as that speech and then basically he is then charging into battle as kind of the climax of that. Um, but that's how my imagination works. 18:01 - Julia Golding (Host) So okay, I got another good, another favorite bit, which is, um, the lighting of the beacons, and this is partly to do with the fantastic howard shaw score that underpins it. And again, this particular film I always associate very much with communal watching in a family context, with us all being really excited and involved. It's just this film, I think, has that quality to it and there is a spot where the light is going to light up on the horizon as the camera goes across this fantastic New Zealand Middle Earth landscape and you try and think you know where's some poor guy up the top of a mountain with his torch going to be next, but it's just got a feeling of the. It connects the two locations, which is a very simple device but it has that majesty to it and sense of the vastness of the world. I just love that bit and I love that piece of music. 19:01 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) It's probably might be one of my favorite themes from the whole of the, the trilogy yeah, yeah, and that's something that you can only do in film, right, that is difficult to capture that same scope with the sound, right. So the visuals, the sweeping visuals, accompanied by that swelling score, is something, yeah, that that I think they leverage really well in this film adaptation to give you a sense of the grandeur, uh, and and and the importance of that particular moment. 19:28 So, yeah, agreed, agreed I mean, I can go on and I'll just do one, yeah there's still, yeah, so there's, you know, several Sam, Sam and Frodo moments. Yeah, that are just that, are just incredible, um, but one, uh, that that I think visually and with the uh, with the scoring, that I think worked really well, is, um, when you know so, Sam and Frodo are just by themselves at this point, kind of the final stretch there, and they're clawing their way up mountain dune. At that point fro, Frodo and Sam, Sam kind of laying there and Frodo kind of gets up and he's clawing himself up and then he collapses and Sam's coming up. But as Frodo's climbing up by himself, now you hear the shire pipes that start going in this bleak landscape as he's giving these last ounces of energy. And just that sound of the shire pipes is so incongruous with these, you know, destructive, oppressive, dark, suffocating surroundings. 20:32 And then Sam's line in right when he comes in the you know I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you. But then you come with that into the West kind of theme that comes swelling up behind him, uh, during that moment. So it's just the you, the use of, yeah, the the score there was deeply moving, I think, really adds to that an already powerful moment. Uh, that that was there right from from from the books. But just adding that that sound um and the kind of again linking, and what they're doing, the two of them here in this desolate landscape from this verdant, peaceful landscape of the shire, linking that with those pipes, is just really, really effective, I felt for, for me at least, I mean we could just go on raving about the good moments, because there are plenty of them and I think that almost every character has a really good moment. 21:28 - Julia Golding (Host) I'm thinking of Pippin singing so I don't like the rather over playing the John Noble Denethor of the blood coming out of his mouth. That's the kind of song with the montage of the cavalry riding towards a hopeless, impossible aim of trying to retake Osgiliath. I think that's very good. And Merry of course, has his moments in the battle helping out Erwin, who also has her best moments. So there's some fantastic really. I think they've actually have done those moments really well the whole Palenor Fields aspect and the way that the narrative of the battle is told, because battles are confusing and a lot of it in the book of course, is done as a song by the bards of Rohan afterwards. In a sense they've tidied it all up into a narrative and I think Peter Jackson does have a very good skill of making it so we can follow from character to character in a battle so you don't lose where you are, and that's incredibly difficult to do, I'm sure you know. 22:51 I think that's Whereas in the Hobbit, if I can just sort of step out of. I found that the Battle of the Five Armies. It just went on far too long. I thought some of the it was overblown, there was too many battlefields, it just kind of went all over the place. This one, it seemed to serve a narrative purpose all the time rather than. Here's another cool trick. I can do with the chariot. So, and the Oliphants are pretty good. I think we mentioned last time that the Legolas downing the Oliphants are pretty good. I think we mentioned last time that the Legolas downing the Oliphant was a good sequence because it was earned by the role he was playing in the battle. Right, Right. 23:37 So let's think about some of the differences between the book and the film, bearing in mind we are acknowledging you can't do everything, but it does start. There's two multiple starts and multiple ends which I think we should talk about. Of the starts, I think the very first start is with Smeagol and Deagol fishing from a boat, which is a surprising start which I think is, I think, quite a good way of surprising the audience. I do remember finding the violence of actually quite an extended scene of somebody throttling somebody else quite difficult, particularly watching it with a family. It was one of the scenes I would here comes the mum. I would skip that and also skip Shelob, just because of the nightmare factor for the kids. Shelob, I think, is earned. The Smeagol and Deagol thing because it's man on the Hobbit, does seem to be away from the more fantasy cartoon violence. So I yeah, it's problematic, I can see why you want it, but I don't know that I don't enjoy that scene. 24:56 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) There you go yes, yeah, agreed, yeah it is. It is difficult to watch, and I do so, and this is something I'm sure we'll talk about at length a little bit later. But showing, but showing violence in the shire specific, you know, in in a shire related, you know, landscape, something showing the violence that can take place there because of the ring or, as a result of the ring, that evil can work its way into the most pastoral of of settings, because of this object of power. So I, I, so I can see again, like you said, like I can see why they put it in there but it is. 25:38 but you're, you're absolutely right, that is kind of a departure from, like you know, human, elf, dwarf, hobbit on orc, uh, violence or cave troll or right, uh, usually you're not dealing with humans. The only time you really get human on human is a little bit in two towers where you see characters with warm tongue and, um, some of what he's doing there. But and denethor is, you know, kind of a human on human, villainous character in the films. This what you, what you're seeing visually. But you're right, it is, it is a departure, it is unexpected and difficult. Yeah, I probably wouldn't, for my thinking of my little one, I won't have him watching that it's true, though, isn't it? 26:25 - Julia Golding (Host) All mine are grown up now, but at the time when they were sort of older children, you know, you're sort of watching it with the eyes of what do I want them to see? Yeah, that was an element which I think. It's not so much the, it's the fact how long it goes on for, and how graphic it is that he's struggling this person. So the second departure is from the extended cut, which is where Saruman is reinstated the death of Saruman and there's a speech where he's at the top of Orthanc and then falls down and gets spiked on a wheel thing. What do you think of that scene? 27:15 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) sort of wheel thing. Um, what do you think of that scene? If, yeah, if you're not, if you're not showing the scouring of the shire and you have to come up with you already decided that you're not doing that for the story that you want to tell. Um, then I'm trying to think of what other ways you can dispose of getting an end for the character of Saruman. I mean, it's so in in some sense you still have, you know, worm tongue as the disposer in in one way. But then what you lose in offing Saruman, there is more of the pity of Gandalf, which in his speech, in Saruman's speech at the top of the tower, he derides Gandalf. He says I don't need your pity or mercy, or mercy. 28:14 Uh, you really see that in the book version, when you know they just leave and let you know, they let saruman off and give him a chance to still do something, right, to give having mercy upon him and then leaving it up to him on how he decides to change or not. Um, so you do, you do miss that, and so that that's a moment, something that I appreciated from the book, that you don't get as much by just watching Saruman. It is a spectacle, right and him being impaled specifically on his own machinery. Like, yes, I understand the kind of irony of that and it is visually really arresting. And it is visually really arresting and I think I understand that it's kind of a visual callback to another one of Christopher Lee's roles as Dracula in a film where he was impaled in that film, so kind of a visual nod to another piece of cinema. 29:06 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, so the theatrical cut didn't have this, and so it was a bit random that Pippin just picked up the palantir, which is a seeing stone, in order to set that up. So it's better with it in. And also it felt wrong not to have a goodbye scene for Christopher Lee, didn't it? But this is definitely one of those spaces where I think there's room for improvement, given a bit more canvas, a bit more scope. That actually what the Saruman survival to end up causing trouble in the Shire does is. 29:46 It gives a real sense of how evil just doesn't go away. When you throw a ring in a fire, you know the damage remains. But also it gives Frodo his moment of fullest maturity when, even after there's an attack on him right at the door of Bag End, he says you were great once. And that's his moment of greatness is when he says that and I'm sure we're not spoiling the plot for anybody Grima then attacks him and then the hobbits shoot Grima. So it kind of wraps it up, and I would really enjoy seeing that moment because whilst Frodo's been rising up into being a sort of bigger soul, Saruman's been diminishing. And I think that gives that moment, because Saruman is a Valar, he's more than just a wizard. He was a sort of archangely messenger of the gods kind of person. 30:51 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, and that's one of the themes I think that the film does well with the character of Gandalf right. Just going back to the background information with Valar, with Gandalf being a Maya right. 31:07 - Julia Golding (Host) Yes, correct. Let me correct that. 31:09 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yes, yeah, yeah. 31:11 - Julia Golding (Host) I meant to say Maya. The Valar are like the gods, the Maya are like the next rung down. So, don't write in to correct me, I'm just having a senior moment, right, yes, yes, but the archangel moment, yeah. 31:28 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So with Gandalf right, and in the Silmarillion you have right, olorin, who's you know who, becomes who's Gandalf. And in the Silmarillion you have Olorin, who's Gandalf embodied. It mentions in the Silmarillion that he has kind of been it suggested that he has an apprenticeship under Nienna, who's the goddess of weeping and wisdom and pity, and so that's where it seems that Gandalf picks up this idea of pity from, as this kind of cardinal virtue. And then I think Ian McKellen does a really good job of depicting this pitiful in the positive sense, right, somebody who is full of pity for others, and where he has that in his eyes and his demeanor, I think he adds to, he really highlights that in the character of Gandalf. It's latent in the character of Gandalf, that's's actually, you know, pervasive there. You actually see that visualized. 32:16 And then Frodo, right, picks up that idea when he spares golem's life later. But then you see that, I think, fully realized with saruman, where then instead of having a, you know, a may Maya kind of teaching him about pity, this hobbit, you then have a hobbit who's displaying this fully realized sense of pity to this otherworldly superhuman being who was at the height of its power earlier. So I really like that, like you were saying, giving Frodo this moment showing his full moral development. So you see him as just like courageous development, right, if you're looking at that as a character aspect, that's what the films depict well, but in terms of his moral development, I think you do get a fuller realization of that in that scene that you're mentioning in the Scouring the Shire. 33:13 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, this isn't a criticism of Peter Jackson choosing not to do that, because I think he just had too much material, but I'm just pointing out where I think the room is to do something different and interesting Something more. 33:25 Yeah, that's the point. Yeah, so that does actually take us to the problem of the endings of the film, and this is why it doesn't make it as my favorite of them, because I remember watching it in the cinema and we have a sort of whiteout when Frodo is sort of passing out on the ashy slopes, he wakes up and is in a bed and there's quite a long scene of slow motion people coming in, and then there's um a coronation, and then there's a flying up the map and you're thinking is at the end, is at the end. And then there's um riding into the shire. Then there's down the pub in the shire with um, the sense of Sam going off to speak to Rosie Carson. Then there's Frodo writing in a book. This is all the end, Frodo writing in a book and suffering. He's ill. And then there's the ride to meet Bilbo, who's going to the shores as well to catch the boat, and then there is a long scene of farewells on the shores. 34:36 Now, each of those scenes has something good in it and something I wouldn't want to lose, but the problem is is I think there's another blackout scene as well, um, another moment where you think, oh, this is, the credits are going to roll, it doesn't leave. You keep saying is it now? Is it now? And I remember thinking in the cinema this is and I'm a passionate fan of you, know the whole thing. I remember thinking this is going on too long, that it's just not, it's just not working. Where do you think? What would you agree and what would you have done? 35:15 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) yeah, that's a good question. Definitely, I think visually they do. You're using the conventions of film with that, especially like a fade to black, that's usually denotes the end, uh, kind of a hard, a hard stop on something, uh. So so using that, yeah, certainly I think, interrupts the sense of flow that could, that could be there in some of those scenes. So it really is difficult because you want to have all of these different moments and so I think it's an attempt to to have, have it always, have it both, not just both ways, but always right with, with, with kind of having a. 35:58 There's almost, yeah, like a traffic jam, uh, kind of, uh of of endings, kind of piling up one after another in, in one sense, um, yeah, and in another sense I mean, cause I like, I like I, I want to live in that world, I want to, I want to be there, and so I, I get a sense, you know, after each of the endings, like, can, can, can I please just get one more? 36:19 It's like an encore, you know, but somebody I like, I like the fact that there is more of it. It is, but it isn't as smooth and, I think, as narratively as you could, and I think yeah. So it'd be interesting if you had to try to reconfigure some of those different endings. Is there a way where, like you did with the Mordor and Gondor battle struggle sequences, is there a way that you could intercut some of those farewells that would be compelling? Um, I'm not sure, because I think for for endings usually right, you want to like linger with the character and have kind of more extended dialogue sequences, and that's harder to do with intercutting, but I want, yeah, it would be. It would be interesting to say, like are, is there a different way to do this? 37:10 - Julia Golding (Host) um, yeah, I'm wondering, I'm wondering If you have the flexibility. 37:13 I'm wondering hearing you talk, actually, if the problem isn't so much the number of endings, it's the fact that we get the music and the signals that this is ending. It's a bit like you applaud a piece of classical music before the end because you've taken the final chord as being it, but actually no, there's a coda which you didn't know to expect, and I think actually the signalling, the filmatic signalling, is a bit wrong there and there's another way of doing it. I can also in this other world I'm imagining of the mini-series with much more time you could make a real virtue of it and have your sense of say, the message is just because you kill the baddie or break his power, it doesn't mean that things are over. You know that this world and you could actually make that a really interesting part about that, because it would give more space to breathe for some of the relationships which kind of get shunted into sort of a very rapid wedding bells style of solution. 38:19 And actually there's some much more interesting reflections on that Mm-hmm. 38:24 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, absolutely so I think signals are wrong. 38:26 - Julia Golding (Host) Signals are wrong. 38:27 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) And that's a film. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, absolutely. And one of the endings with one of those that you don't really get is a moment with a pair that you've followed from the beginning, which was Legolas and Gimli, right the development of their relationship. You don't really get a good send off of just those two as a pair. That you do have mentioned right in the book that they're kind of going off to uh together for a while, and then the possibility that the two of them then go into the west together, not not explicitly, but that it is said. 39:01 - Julia Golding (Host) Some, you know some say that, yeah, this is something that happens on that in the book, gimli and legolas have an agreement that um leg will take Gimli into Fangorn to show him the appreciation of trees and Gimli takes Legolas into the caves at Helm's Deep. The problem they have is that Gimli doesn't go in the caves at Helm's Deep because of the way the narrative works. Erwin's down there with the women and children and even though there are beautiful caves, you don't get the chance to establish that. For Gimli, this has been one of his peak moments in the journey is discovering these fantastic caves. Yeah, but also one thing I appreciate how difficult this is. 39:49 I mean, we're being very picky here because we can just reorganise it just, you know, in our armchairs. But one thing which I did think was done well in the extended edition, which was cut from the theatrical, is just a couple of moments with Erwin and Faramir establishing what they mean to each other. There's a and I think actually that's one of the ways, that's one of the good things that you could have done more with, because he, peter Jackson, chooses some key moments. So they're in the houses of healing together, they have a moment when she, when they're not sure which way it's going to go, um, and they find comfort in each other and then they're standing together at the coronation and if you're going to do a compressed version of their relationship, that's quite a good way to go. 40:36 I think the problem with the Aragorn and Arwen story is they spend the entire story apart and they try really hard to bring a connection with some of the scenes that foretell Arwen's future. I mean, I enjoyed watching those because it delved into material from the appendices and that was a bit of, you know, a geeky thrill to see that. But I think there is a really difficult problem making us feel that that relationship, you know it's just they just don't have the time together, which is a shame. It's just the way the story runs, and so perhaps, yeah, perhaps, I can't suggest putting more in, because that would have just made it even longer film. I think that that was one of the less successfully handled love stories because it did sort of vanish, really below the weight of the other narrative Right. 41:39 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yep, yeah, agreed, and especially with somebody as great as Eowyn that you spent so much time with earlier, you know, in the previous film, and then on the battlefield, I think it would. So, yeah, I think she could have had a slightly better send off, but again, that would have extended the runtime, which they're already running way too far. 42:02 - Julia Golding (Host) I think she gets enough. It's Arwen who gets the. She just comes to the wedding. 42:07 Right, right you do have those scenes where she's leaving, right, right, you do have those scenes where she's leaving. I mean, I think they decided to do, well, let's give her a little story arc so that she now is. They added the thing about her dying and that Aragorn is also fighting for her because otherwise she'll die, as if he didn't need any more motivation. So they want to make the connection. I just feel it's a really difficult story to put into a film because this isn't a love story. Well, it's not a love story. It's a love story in the sense that it's a story between friends, a love story of friendships, Sam and Frodo and the fellowship, and it just feels it's just difficult. Yeah, so it's not Beren and and luthien, is it? Which is? It's kind of uh, what is you know that would be? That's the film I'd like to see made that one. But do a proper Tolkien love story. 43:04 Yeah, right, I think that the another cut I would have made is the goodbye speech at the Grey Havens just goes on too long. And also, I think the coronation just goes on too long. You know there's some this does in terms of building the pace towards the end rather than putting on the brakes. But anyway, that's me being picky, okay. So, um, thinking about the things that if we were, what other potential do you think there would be if you were given the job? You get the phone call. Some big streaming platform wants you to do the Return of the King again. I've mentioned some things I'd put in. Where would you go? Yeah, what did you like and not like about the changes that were made to Return of the King? What would you put back? 43:59 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm the. So that, yeah, the, the scouring of the shire is something that keep going back and forth on on whether or not to to include that. But I think you're right that that that sort of ending seems more better fit for a long form series. Uh, you know, limited series, um, just because there's there's, there's, there's so much that you see, there, like you said, one of the themes that they didn't follow is the. 44:33 You know the, the long defeat, and that, even when the ring is thrown into, uh, right, the fires of mount doom, that evil still is and it's not. They haven't changed the world and renewed it and now there's no more death and sorrow, um, uh, or evil, um, so you get and I understand that you know in a film what you're doing. They need those kind of stark, you know you, clear evil, clear good, and how those two are wrestling in the hearts of some of these individuals, how they went out in some instances, good wins, and you can go home as an audience happy, knowing that good has been saved, uh, at least in one world that you've experienced. Um, but, yeah, I, I, but with that, I think that the scouring of the shire does show that the story, the you know the road, does go ever on in in way, right that there are more stories, there's more adventures to be had later. And this is like you know Sam says that there are these great stories. You know we're a part of a story and we're continuing on and that these stories will continue to exist. 45:53 So if there's one thing that I think that could have been done, where you could maybe bring in a little bit more of the fact that it's not necessarily happily ever after, you do kind of get a sense of that in the delivery of Sam you know his line, you know well, I'm back there. At the end it is kind of a bittersweet him being back, sweet him being back, um. But I think if you, another possible avenue is to kind of lean more into that and show you him even telling those stories, that same sort of speech that he has, or moving that, or having him telling that to his children about having which is different from the book. Right, they ended it in a book-appropriate place there with Sam saying I'm back. 46:45 But if you wanted to continue some of those themes of each person being part of a narrative, a larger narrative and then these kind of continually happening and good and evil continual struggle that I think there's a way that maybe you could include a bit more of that thematically and that we're all continuing, even the audience included, as part of this ongoing struggle. That, looking back on it, other people might say you had a heroic life, when in the moment, as you're struggling with this, you might not feel that way yourself I don't. 47:20 - Julia Golding (Host) I think that I wouldn't have chose. I wouldn't have changed the end. I definitely would have used that as my last line. The thing I would change about Sam, though, is the right at the beginning of the film where Frodo and Sam fall out. I know they did this for narrative purpose, to get Frodo on his own in Shelob's lair, but actually I think it works really well in the book where the two of them are so terrified and doing it together. I think that really works that passage. So I'd like to see a version where they don't fall out on the stairs. 47:56 This is where there's a bit of a character wrenching going on. 47:59 We were talking about how Faramir in the Two Towers has a sort of pushing into a more violent version of himself. 48:06 He's back at, interestingly, in this film he's back as the Faramir from the book after that little foray on the dark side, but in this film it's set up that Frodo is already so sort of impressed by the ring that he distrusts Sam, and that doesn't happen in the book, and I think that breaking of the trust then actually takes away the power of him right at the end, breaking away from doing what Sam wants him to do. 48:40 I would have held that moment till then, right on the crack of doom, literally, that even Sam can't get through to him, and so it's kind of done a bit early. So I would that's a thing that I would not would suggest that it's possible to redo and have a really good, powerful scary. You know, we've seen the equivalent of the horror films of two people going through the haunted house. If you're both equally scared, it's equally terrifying. You don't need to be on your own. Yeah, so that's what I. I think I would change that because I think that narratively it works better for Frodo to have his moment of breaking right at the end right, yeah, and that's something yeah with with the. 49:24 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) You know, we mentioned these kind of triads that are set up right with Gollum, Sam and Frodo, and you know, Denethor, Faramir and and Boromir and Aragorn, Arwen and Eowyn, as these kind of triad, of triads of these dynamics between those different characters that Frodo, Sam and Gollum, that to make them more, to make it more of an equal triangle, uh, having Frodo kind of split between Gollum and Sam and so introducing more tension between the characters dramatically. I can see why they did that for that purpose. But in making that choice it's done at the expense of this deep, like you said, trusting relationship that has developed between Frodo and Sam, between all it's done. So you do lose something there. It's done at the expense of that relationship and the beauty of that relationship. And that's seeing that. 50:18 I agree that maybe, seeing that point, that split done at the very end, when you think that's the one thing that Frodo has to save him is Sam, uh and Sam, you know him and his relationship with Sam, it would be, yeah, I think, more more of a gut punch, an emotional gut punch, than than it is, uh, as it is presently in the film. But it's just a trade-off, but you get that gut punch earlier, and so it's where? Where do you want that falling out? But I would like to see the version that you suggested absolutely yeah, so there's always more to talk about. 50:52 - Julia Golding (Host) We've talked for quite a long time about a film which lasts um three hours or something, isn't it In the uncut version? And there is still more to say, but let's think about the achievement. So we've been nitpicking. We love these films. It's not a criticism. 51:10 I think it's just quite exciting to see what you could do, because there is a temptation to say these were such good films that they shouldn't be touched. You should leave them as they are, nobody else need come along afterwards. But I do actually think, when I've thought about it at length, that if you say, well, let's take a different pace, let's take in a different canvas, I do think there is actually scope and plus some of the things which feel a bit CGI like, like the, the, the black gate, where the land falls away beneath all but the good army. That always feels like a video game to me, the way it's shot and everything. It doesn't feel, and I'm sure these days we've come on 20 years time, you know. I think you could probably have another go at some of the CGI as well. Anyway, what do you think about the Return of the King and the fact that it won all those Oscars. Was it a deserved Oscar win? I think you got 11 Oscars, do you remember? 52:13 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, 11, 13. I was. I think it was an odd, some sort of odd or prime number that was more than 10. I can't remember exactly, it might have been 13. But yeah, I think, and again, yeah, because this was, they were all kind of shot concurrently, so I thought it was well-deserved. What I didn't, you know, you didn't have, I believe it was Ian McKellen was nominated for fellowship, for an Academy Award, but not for Return of the King, when, you know, I argue he there, there were a few kind of oversights, I think, but I, I, overall, yeah, I think it's, it was a, a, a Marvel miracle, a miracle even of, of, of, of cinematic accomplishment there. So I, I think, I think it was, it was absolutely deserved and it wasn't just, you know, kind of a, a, a pity, pity awards being given for something that had just taken so much time, but just the ambition, yeah, especially even that I think it won everything except acting awards, and there is a problem. 53:29 - Julia Golding (Host) I think in the academy of giving uh in the oscars are actually giving awards for acting in a fantasy film. They're're very representative, yeah fantasy sci-fi. 53:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, they're quite big awards to people who do things where they're changing their bodies physically but within a real-world context. But if you become a wizard, you're counted out. So I think it deserved the awards and the awards, because I think and the awards, I think, were a recognition of the whole trilogy. Really, I think that's what happened there. It was kind of okay. This is our last chance, we've got to do this and I do think they completely rose to the challenge. So I mean, my last comment I want to make on this is basically well done. These films deserved the Oscars because it was a recognition of the whole of the trilogy and Peter Jackson and his team brilliantly rose to the occasion. 54:36 They aslkien fan who was worried about what they would do for me they really achieved um so much and they were really respectful of the material whilst making changes which they felt were necessary. I don't agree with all their choices, but I can see why they made their choices. So it's just because a debate about. You know, not everybody makes the same film. That's the whole point, and so I think they are definitely. They're still my favorite films, but I would I still think there's room for more, a little bit more, as Frodo says and that little bit more? Is somebody else having another go? I think that you know, in a decade's time I'll be quite ready to watch it. So good luck to whoever that is. 55:24 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Right, yeah, exactly, I would love to, I would love to see it too, and similar, yeah, hats off to them. 55:29 It was, like I mentioned in the first podcast, this was my first introduction really into the world of Tolkien, and so it was, I think, for me and I'm sure for a lot of others, kind of an ideal entry point into a world, you know, a brilliantly imagined, painstakingly created, lovingly curated world that Professor Tolkien spent so much time, put so much heart into. I'm so incredibly grateful that so many people took this so seriously, created such a lived-in, convincing world that I could step into and fall in love with, and that led me to reading the books themselves and then everything else that the good professor, uh, put his, put his hand to. So it's been really enriching experience for me. So, if, if for no other reason, uh, I applaud it and it holds a preeminent place in my heart because it introduced me into this broader world that, uh, uh, professor Tolkien created yeah, Tolkien had the theory that we were sub-creators and just as my my sort of coda is. 56:46 - Julia Golding (Host) One of the things that peter jackson created was an environment, a story around the making of the films. So not only could you watch the films as a fan, but you also had the pleasure of doing I think it's the best behind the scenes coverage of any film. It certainly raised the bar extremely high. If anyone's followed on, it's because of him, so that not only was it like the film journey, but you also had a sense of the journey of the actors and the stagehands and the people who did the set design and made all the progress, and that in itself was a creation and an achievement, which I think would, and the sense of New Zealand getting behind it as a sort of you know, that whole fun part of it. So I enjoyed watching the creation of the film world around it as well, and I think that would be very hard to replicate in future. So that might be, in a sense, what is most unique contribution. In the long run We'll see. 57:54 Yeah, so good luck to whoever does this next. 57:57 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yes. 57:58 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, that's right. I mean I haven't heard that anyone's in the frame for doing it, but I would imagine it will happen. They've just announced that they're doing an anime of Rohan today, at the day we're filming this. So clearly other sort of miniseries type things are happening, so we'll see. And of course, we always do a section where we decide at the end of our podcast where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place for something We've been talking about kings. So the obvious place to go, Jacob, is to decide where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place to be made king. Any ideas on that one? 58:44 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) For me, I think I'm going to have to go with the world of Faerie in Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke. I think the Raven King there is an incredibly mysterious character, incredibly powerful. You don't get to spend, he only appears. I don't want to give spoilers, but you don't see a lot of this Raven King. If you do or do not see him Again, I won't say for certain, but he appears and he carries a tremendous amount of weight without having to do a whole lot, then, yes, the realm of Faerie in Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, I think, is probably the best you could hope for. 59:48 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, some of the kingship gigs do seem a bit like hard work, don't they? I mean, Aragorn works really hard and it's mentioned that he has to go around tidying up and, you know, reuniting the kingdom. It's definitely a post-war reconstruction mentioned that he has to go around tidying up and, you know, sort of reuniting the kingdom. It's definitely a post-war reconstruction role that he has. So maybe not so good. I think that there's some definite places not to be king, like the Game of Thrones world. No, no, not taking that gig. Possibly. 01:00:17 I would like to be a king in or queen. It's got to be narnia. Really, partly that was the childhood thing of you get to be long live king peter, long live queen susan and so on, which is a great bit of an ego trip. As a child you can imagine yourself being king. But I'd actually probably prefer to be king in the Magician's Nephew, where you're the first king and it's the cabbie and his wife who get to be king and queen there, and I always thought the idea of being king and queen in a pristine world where you're setting up the state sounds quite fun. So that's where I'd like to go and be king, and there's probably very little paperwork because you haven't inherited plenty. 01:00:59 So it's where I'd like to go and be king, and there's probably very little paperwork because you haven't inherited plenty. So it's just a straightforward king gig where you can establish your court and everything up. So that's my Thanks. So much, Jacob. Thanks for joining me, and I hope people have enjoyed our discussion. We don't expect you to agree, but we'd be very interested to hear your views, so do write in and let us know. You can find us at the oxfordcentreforfantasyorg. 01:01:24 - Speaker 3 (None) Thank you very much and goodbye thanks for listening to Mythmakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.