Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Two Towers Movie Reconsidered

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and I'm an author but also the director of the centre, and for the second time I've been joined by Jacob Reniker, who is a Tolkien fan, and also where the scope might be for future scriptwriters and new film makers and television program makers to come along and do their own version. And today, of course, as it's the second, we have reached the two towers. So, Jacob, first of all, is this one of your favorite of the films, or you know're in the lineup, is it? We've only got three to to line up. Where would you? 01:06 yeah, uh, a bit like asking which of the star wars films you like, kind of question yeah, it is. 01:14 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Um, you know it, I would say it might be my least favorite, but only because but that's not there, I think they're all for me. Again, like I mentioned last time, I see them all as just kind of like one continual story, especially since they were shot kind of continuously. So, for, in terms of the segments or chapters of the story, yeah, it's. I think I get more uh out of the characters and the world with the first and the third than I do in the second. The second is traditionally the most difficult to do. Well, right, it's the saggy middle. Right, you have to get through. 01:57 So the beginning you have set up, you have your inciting incidents, you have all this new things that are happening, crises, and then you still have to get to your, you know, climax and resolution. But there's this big stretch in the middle that you have to do something engaging with from an audience perspective. Um, and so it's, I think, I think it's, I think it's good. Um, it's very, I think, because of the battles there sometimes seems a little long, could be longer, but yeah, I'd say yeah, so the least. Again, that's a hard, like you said. 02:37 - Julia Golding (Host) I mean struggling to criticize something we actually really like. 02:40 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Right, yeah, exactly. 02:41 - Julia Golding (Host) I actually really enjoy watching how they cope with a really difficult thing, which is what to do with the middle section. 02:48 - Speaker 3 (None) I mean, I get a lot of enjoyment from that. 02:50 - Julia Golding (Host) I agree with you. It's not. I would probably rewatch the first and the third more frequently, but there are certainly plenty of perfect moments in the second and some really great choices which surprised me. I remember watching it for the first time, which I thought. This is really good. 03:06 So before we think about the bigger structure, we're going to start with some smaller moments. First of all, let's think about the casting and the choices of language and that kind of thing. In the second film we were talking a lot about how Frodo was cast young in Fellowship. In this film I think most of the casting is. There's less challenging casting in this. It's all pretty much on the same line as the book, though we do have I suppose this falls into this. We do have characters popping up where they aren't in the book, like how Bar have. I suppose this falls into this. We do have characters popping up where they aren't in the book, like Halbarad, sort of rocks up to with the elves, rocks up to Helm's Deep. There are some choices like that which mean that some characters are astray. So were you happy with the casting choices? The new people, of course, mainly the Rohan it's Bernard Hill and Miranda, I've forgotten her surname, the wonderful actress Otto. 04:14 Oh, thank you, and Kurt, not Kurt. Kurt Urban is the Carl anyway. 04:21 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, carl Urban, yeah. 04:24 - Julia Golding (Host) I always said Kurt Cobain, that's someone completely different. 04:28 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Also with blonde longish hair. 04:30 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah. And then of course, there's David. Oh dear, I should have got my Faramir Wenham, which his name is, anyway, faramir, yeah, so what do you think about? And I've almost forgot worm tongue, uh, another great, uh character of of talking. Were you happy with the choices they made? 04:56 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I, I'm I'm very happy with them all I, I am also, I am also I, and it's funny that uh, this is just a couple months ago, so I'm uh watching the x files, uh television series, american television uh series, um, and uh, the fellow who plays worm tongue I'm so sad that I forgot his name um, he, he was in an episode uh of the second season, first or second season of of x-files as a you know the, the creepiest, most sinister possible uh kind of antagonist uh, and he did it was yeah, so it was, it was a joy, it was a joy to watch him in uh another role. 05:42 - Julia Golding (Host) You got brif. Thank you, Google. 05:45 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I knew. 05:45 - Julia Golding (Host) I was going to get that completely wrong. 05:53 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So Brad was just an incredible choice for that level of sinister sneaky sleazy. Just dark creepy. He's some sort of creature of the night, almost, I'm sure, in real life. I would love to meet him in real life, um, and just have a good chat with him. 06:14 - Julia Golding (Host) He's quite funny in the in the making of, because of course, he had to shave off his eye eye eyebrows each time he played the part oh, wow okay, his partner was getting quite cross because when he went for the pickups he'd come back looking. 06:27 You know, not a good look, guys, if you're thinking of shaving off your eyebrows, okay. So yeah, I think in that case. I don't think tonally there's much difference. I think all three films they've maintained it's not one of these scripts where they've had like loads of writers coming in and it doesn't fit. It feels all part of an overarching trilogy, so yeah. So what about the perfect moments for you? Do you have any of? 07:00 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) those. I can say just one moment. The moment that somehow I want translated onto my tombstone is Aragorn's return opening the hall doors at Helm's Deep. When he walks in he's just drug himself through the water and the horse, brego, took him up onto his back and then took him back. But then, you know, when he first, you know, enters uh, the hall there of helms deep, with that kind of slow motion, almost you know half slow motion, pushing open the doors and him, just, you know, striding in there is every single time it's just this like I just get this, like surge of, yeah, just like majesty and power, uh, and you know, uh, awe, and not that I am any of those things, but just so if somebody is stopping by my gravesite someday that they see that they might get that. 08:00 - Julia Golding (Host) You know, just have a nice I suspect that you, you, you, you identify and root for aragon quite, quite a lot. I I think I can see this. 08:09 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I can understand, though, um, that whole episode of him falling off the edge and being dead and coming back again is is another sort of birth, death and resurrection kind of uh story and it but it's not actually from the books right right right, it works I think, I think, I mean, I, I think again, like I I saw before I read the books, um, uh, two towers was the film, so I saw the fellowship and then, uh, two towers, and after two towers came out, that's what really. It was the end of the two towers film. That really gave me the final push to dive into the books themselves. Um, and then my life became consumed by tolkien afterwards, forever, after um, but it was that, yeah, so so it was. It was compelling for me and got me into the place where I wanted to learn more about those characters. 09:02 But, yeah, maybe, yeah, aragorn, and with the in talking about casting um, just going back for a second, with aragorn there here and elsewhere, vigo mortensen brings a kind of softness, I want to say, you know, kind of almost like a feminine energy to this king, this powerful king. So he's this, really this combination of, you know, power and strength, but also this softness and care and nurture, as this, you know, king healer, that you do see in the book. But I think he really kind of elevates that and brings out the kind of nurturing qualities of the king a little a more in his, in his performance there. That, uh, that I love personally and kind of is essentially kind of my model for uh I, I wish that I could be aragorn as a father to my, to my children they could see me in that way, yeah yeah, it's a good aspiration. 10:00 - Julia Golding (Host) for me, one of the perfect moments in terms of camera work and evocation of place and everything is when you first see the Golden Hall, Meduseld and you've got Erwin standing on that very windy ledge that she stands on. It's almost like a perfect Tolkien moment the vistas, the scope, the sense of it actually having the air. You know it's a wild place, yeah, the other thing I really like as well which is a slightly odd choice, maybe, it's I love that they use the Anglo-Saxon dirge for when they bury their children. 10:43 I think this might only be in the extended edition, I don't know. Anyway, that's lovely because of course they are the Anglo-Saxons in this world. 10:53 - Speaker 3 (None) Right. 10:54 - Julia Golding (Host) A cross between them and the Hungarian riders of ancient history, and so there's lots of moments there thinking this thing. Not forget um the journey of Frodo and Sam. Are there any perfect moments for you on that? 11:12 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) because of course, there is the introduction of golem yeah, yeah, you do have that, I think for me, the moments with with Frodo, and my favorite moment there in two towers is, you know, Sam monologue when they're around oscillia um you've got to the end here, right? 11:32 yeah, yeah exactly so I'm going to the end. 11:33 But in terms of the moments overall, just like that where he's talking about right, it's like in the great stories, uh, the ones that really mattered, and he's talking about the characters living inside a story versus, you know, seeing the story from the outside and what, what sort of difference that makes, um, from a person's perspective, and just like, yeah, so his delivery, um, sean astin's delivery of that is just so earnest and pure and inspiring. 12:02 Every time I see it, yeah, that's a moment that really charges me and makes me think that, right, the Andrea Frodo asks him. He says that there was something that they were holding onto in those stories and then Frodo says what were they holding onto? What are we holding onto, Sam? And he says that there's some good in this world, mr Frodo, and it's worth fighting for right. So every single time that, just you know, it is inspirational, kind of at its core. And, yeah, that's for me, that's one of the things, that, one of the moments that, in re-watching these films, those are the ones that I look forward to most and get the most out of are some of those character moments and the funeral moment also, that you moment that you mentioned that was. 12:44 One of my other favorite moments is that entire burial scene and then the conversation oh yeah afterward between, uh right, our two kings, if you will, and the reflection on, you know, burying uh your children is is is quite touching and moving. Yeah, just just the Anglo-Saxon dirge just kind of evokes that and I think, yeah, I think, Great performance by Bernard Hill there talking about that. 13:13 - Julia Golding (Host) It's a very simple and stripped back scene just between him and Gandalf. But I think it feels so genuine because of course, in the way the book works, theodred's dead sort of it moves quite swiftly on. 13:33 And I think it was a really good decision to give a moment of grief. Yeah, absolutely, because the book doesn't have that breathing space in it. So one more moment, of course, is I do think that when I watched it the first time, the Andy Serkis first schizophrenic um Gollum, that was just amazing. When I first saw that, I mean it's become so parodied that we almost forget how powerful that was. Really well written. I mean it's all there in the Tolkien. But the way it's chosen and put together and then performed, I think is another extremely perfect moment. You know, one of the best scenes in the whole of the three films agreed okay, any um less good moments okay yeah. 14:19 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So again, this is, I think, uh, okay, look at a big picture and Tolkien's own within that world itself. Right, so the moment so he says you know that's the suspension of disbelief is one thing. He doesn't think that that's what fantasy does. He doesn't think that that's what fantasy does. Fantasy isn't just the suspension of disbelief but rather the kind of invitation toward and was. It was his way of describing that. So for me, the moment, like the moment that that absolutely I was taken out of this film as a true, internally consistent world, uh was a Legolas kind of skateboarding down the stairs on the on the shield and shooting arrows. Um, I think, if I would have seen that as a earlier teenager, that that might have been my favorite scene in the film, isn't it? 15:52 it's kind of a different audience for that it seemed right, right, so that seems yeah, so, so I think. So that kind of like tonally it it seemed a little bit off. Uh, I would expect, I think, given how the elves act, it didn't seem quite as dignified. I don't know what I was expecting him to do to kind of like float down the stairs and shoot arrows instead. I don't know what the alternative is, but it wasn't. But that that was for whatever reasons. That was something that, during that intense battle kind of like, had took me out of that secondary world and said, oh, I'm something that, during that intense battle kind of like, had took me out of that secondary world and said, oh, I'm watching a film, not, I'm living inside this world. So for me that's probably the biggest example of something that was a cool shot and like a fun idea but ended up, for me personally, kind of taking me out of the film for a moment and Dusk goes a bit crazy about Legolas, doesn't he? 16:47 - Julia Golding (Host) I'd sort of put that along that moment. I agree, because of the skateboarding feel of that, it does feel like a stunt, whereas even more absurd, but in a sense more earned, is when he takes down the mumakil the olifant in the next film. I'm leaping ahead. 17:05 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) That's the same sort of thing. 17:06 - Julia Golding (Host) That's the sort of you can see him thinking how do I get, how do I, how do I tackle this creature? And he methodically works his way, thinking well, I've got to do this. And so it feels I don't know. There's something a bit more within the world about that. Again, it's an elaboration, it's not in the book or anything, but that for me doesn't jar, even though it's ridiculous. In the Hobbit, peter Jackson goes completely crazy when he's doing anti-physics thing where he's climbing up falling rocks in the battle of that which really is just hanging off bats, completely, completely silly. 17:47 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) basically, yeah, so you know, I would put that that sequence at one end, and when we kill at the other end, and the the shield thing, yeah, okay, somewhere he's kind of like it works I could see somebody actually doing that, yes, but I could see, like me and my friends trying to do, and I I'm sure there's probably uh, you know, you know, uh, hospitals, emergency rooms, who have witnessed how many children have tried reenacting that down their own stairs now you're worried because you've got two-year-olds. 18:16 You see, I know, yeah, so he'll yes, I have to be careful on which scenes or just skip past that. Um, but it's so it was. It was, but like so, it seemed more contemporary than something that fit into that world. I mean, if we'd seen something like that happen before or there was a real reason, like he had to get down and we saw him taking the shield and it was, if it seemed kind of like an inevitable choice, uh, that he had to get down and the only way he could do that was with this, if, if it was set up differently, then I could see it seeming more natural. I think I can see a world or a way of shooting that in which he has to do this, and so I'm okay with it within the world itself, but as it shot and as it came across to me, it seemed kind of gimmicky, yeah. 19:02 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, right, uh, okay, right. So, moving on from that again, everybody, we're doing this about something we love Um, it's not that, it's the tiny moments which we're quibbling, not not the whole arc of the film or anything. Let's think about the, the way it's structured from beginning to end. I think I want to particularly mention how it starts. So, if you can cast your mind back to 2001, I think it was when it came out, was it 2001? Somewhere around there I think that choosing to start with rerunning the Balrog scene but flipping it to Gandalf's perspective was genius, so unexpected, but also, um, a sort of, instead of doing a reprise. It's. This is the important moment. This is the moment moment that's haunted Frodo. It was, it was very clever. So I love that. It's one of my favorite openings. Actually, it is my favorite opening of all the three films. It's the one that I think is the best bit of um filmmaking yeah, yeah, agreed, and the, the, so the cinematography during that section, right. 20:16 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So you're hearing the noises of the battle as you're getting this big kind of like panoramic, you know sweeping shot of these. You know snow covered mountains and you're being set up with, you know a sense, the scope of this film and what's happening. You're immediately stepping into this wide world and then you're hearing the conflict, conflict, and so it's giving you a chance to like ramp up, to remember it. You're almost being primed to remember it and then you actually get in there, um, you know, zooming in, closing in and then getting in inside the mountain and looking at that, yeah, it's, it's, it's beautiful, it's a great, yeah, a very powerful way to start the film with doing a small recap, like you said, to get what's the minimum amount that you have to do to get people up to speed, to get into the film. And I think that was a brilliant decision and way of doing that. It was very effective, I felt. 21:09 - Julia Golding (Host) So in terms of the structure, they have the problem that Frodo and Sam's journey is quite unrelentingly miserable. There's a brief, brief spell with Faramir in the books where things look up for a little bit, but it is lots of rocky or ashy or swampy landscapes, muted tones, lots of suffering and either three actors or two, so very intense. So they've got two films well, one and a half more films to do this and I think it's really tough. It's tough in the books, I mean. I love those bits because I always think that the real adventure is the mental struggle, the journey that's going on and the way that their relationship changes and shifts. So is it. 22:02 I think I find it fascinating. But I know that my own children, for example, they much prefer the Pippin and Merry and you know the colorful fighting, the travel, you know the other stories. But of course those stories are actually just settings to allow Frodo and Sam to inch slowly to their destination. It does present a problem, because how do you make Frodo and Sam as interesting so people aren't skipping? How do you do that and did they succeed? 22:36 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think visually you're right that you definitely. How do you do that and did they succeed? Really, I think what helps you keep those two worlds separate and engaging and entertaining? Um, the tensions that are created there, that are, you know, that are kind of slightly different than the books, uh, in terms of kind of your triangular relationship between gollum, Frodo and Sam um, because gollum I think the two towers actually keeps closer to the book. 23:16 - Julia Golding (Host) We haven't got to return the king. It diverges a lot there. 23:21 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) But there is already tension in the books between Frodo having empathy for um golem golem and I think from from this and I think, yeah, so maybe to clarify what I think, in the, the films, I had greater empathy for gollum in the films and how they set gollum up and I think in part is the character design right. 23:42 So he's uh, you know, he looks sad and sorry and he has giant eyes, so that's right, so right. And in the, in andy circus's incredible performance, uh, of Gollum. And then you see, and again, like you were saying, with the dialogue I don't know what you call a monologue with yourself, where you're actually two distinct personalities, a monodialogue, internal dialogue, but he's that going back and forth, the seeing Gollum, but he's that going back and forth the seeing Gollum. And in Elijah Woods, Frodo, you just like being able to tell, by looking at him, his pity for Gollum. I think I picked up on that more so in the films it was easier for me to see visually and I got a greater feel for that than in the books how it's described. 24:40 - Speaker 3 (None) Yeah. 24:40 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I felt like it came across more and again, I think perhaps that might just because film is a visual medium and it's easier for me to respond and react to something that I'm seeing that looks like me, actually visually in front of my eyes. So but yeah, I think I absolutely agree with you that Gollum talking to himself, andy circus's performance just really elevated that character of of gollum and I think that's what is interesting, I think helps carry the Sam and Frodo parts more is is the, is that element? 25:12 - Julia Golding (Host) I mean. The other thing to mention, of course, is is that the books do the first half. Book three in Tolkien's Count, which is the first half of the Two Towers, is all the other characters, and book four is Frodo and Sam. Perhaps the point they finish a little bit early just because the way Tolkien's written it, the point at which the two I'm going a bit on too long, but basically they've changed the timing so that the stories run together on the same timeline, whereas Tolkien sort of did here's a bit of this story, here's a bit of this story, here's a bit of that story, um, and I think that helps by putting it one after the other, because you are then having the thing where you've got one kind of tone and palette and color and then you swap back to that and then you never forget proto and Sam. So that was a good choice. 26:14 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, agreed. 26:16 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, so we've got some new characters, well, cultures really to mention. We've already started talking about Rohan. Were you happy with the way that was realised? In particular, I think, looking at the big three Erwin, irma and Theoden the way they were characterized, there were some interesting. Your discussion about magic in our previous podcast, the way they explained Theoden's possession, I think was an interesting change. 26:51 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know, agreed, and that was, you know, one of those other visual elements that took me out momentarily was, you know, theoden's kind of transformation from this you know, hoary, white bearded, you know almost like father time, grumpy, father time figure, to then you know his beard kind of shortens magically and you know, know his hair color changes, um, but yeah, I, I think they're you're the depictions of them. They all give powerful performances, um, yeah, uh, amir, right, uh, in his you know sadness and the tragedy of him kind of being exiled in a sense, there was really really effective, affective for me. And then Eowyn, what she's struggling with there to her relationship with Aragorn that's something we'll probably talk more about is kind of a little shift in what the emphasis is that the screenwriters chose to kind of highlight and elaborate on maybe a little more. That was something that from the film again, just reading, not reading the books until after I'd seen the Two Towers, it seemed consistent and made sense. 28:17 But now, now, yeah, going and looking at the uh, uh, the source material and being more familiar with that, then you do lose something in, you know, in emphasizing the particular aspect of aon, namely her kind of wholehearted I don't know obsession her devotion to aragorn is. Um, you lose. You lose a little bit more of this and namely her kind of wholehearted obsession her devotion to Aragorn is. You lose a little bit more of this incredibly powerful kind of independent spirit that wins arguments and is a force to be reckoned with in her own right. I think you lose a bit of that sense by kind of tying her sense of self to Aragorn. So much in the film. 29:03 - Julia Golding (Host) She does fall for him, she falls for what he represents. But I think that they tried to give her a bit more airtime by putting in some extra scenes, and there's a moment where she's complaining in Helm's Deep, for example, which I think is an addition, because she wasn't there. So, yeah, I know what you mean. I think she feels. Yeah, she feels less dutiful in a way. I mean, she, yeah, I think, but I don't mind it. I think they're looking for areas to expand her character, aren't they? And also, it goes to your point that you made in the last podcast about when there is an opportunity to conflate two characters to do one job, then do so. So the situation where Éamir is sent away, that doesn't happen. He's not the one who's sent away, he's at Helm's Deep, and it's actually Halberad who, not Halberad Erkenbrand, sorry, I'm getting the names right who comes, and you're probably thinking who on earth is he? 30:16 He's another. The world of Tolkien is bigger. There are people you never meet in the films who appear there. So that was all a good choice to give that story to Airmere, though he does come across as being a little bit churlish at times, but I think that is fine. That's an interpretation, what about? So? Yeah, mainly thumbs up for Rohan. I think Bernard Hill makes a crack in the extended edition. I think it's him about how his armour is so much better than everybody else's. They do look quite poor and impoverished, but I suppose an Anglo-Saxon village would have been like that maybe. 30:56 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah right. 30:57 - Julia Golding (Host) Your king would have had all the gold leaf. What about the Ents? Is Treebeard your Treebeard? 31:05 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, that's a good question Again. 31:07 So it took me a while to place the voice right. John Rhys-Davies does the voice of Treebeard as well. So hearing that I was like I know that was one thing that was somewhat distracting because beard as well. So hearing that I was like I know that was one thing it was somewhat distracting because I know I've heard this voice before. I know I've heard this voice before. And then again, going back to my uh being raised half on star wars, half on indiana jones, was, uh, yeah, sharing john reese davies voice. Then placing that um, but she has a great, has a great voice, uh, for it. 31:33 Um, yeah, the character design. I really like the character, the character design. I really liked the character, the character design, especially like, right, when you have your Ent moot right with where you have all of the different Ents gathering together visually depicting different types of trees, you know kind of almost having like one emissary from a different type of tree, different species of tree, um together. So I I really liked what they, what they did there, um, in terms of his uh attitude, demeanor, I think you know. 32:03 Um, as I mentioned in the last podcast, uh, tolkien's way of writing about nature is, you know, transcendental, uh, a sense, right. 32:18 So his descriptions of the forest and Treebeard, his kind of depiction, embodiment of trees, you can tell this is a man who loved trees, that Tolkien loved trees, right, and so it's just a joy to see him give a tree a chance to speak and so, and with that, there's this sense of right, this wisdom and knowledge that comes from a long life and living life slowly, which is more kind of aligned on the hobbit end of things, right, hobbits live their lives slowly, right, so they're kind of closer to trees and how they experience the world, it seems, in a sense than the world of of men and elves. 32:59 Well, elves have, you know again, this impossibly long lifespan, but especially with with with men, that they're kind of like action oriented and they have this kind of small scope of a vision, um, and what's happening and what they're concerned with, whereas the elves have this kind of long institutional history that they've lived through. Um, so I didn't get that sense of wisdom from treebeard in the film, is what all that is to say is that I think, yeah, that that was one of the biggest differences I saw was the that he's almost because of how slow he is, he seems slow in every sense of the word, mentally yeah, that's a change which I think isn't for the best, which is in the book. 33:42 - Julia Golding (Host) Treebeard has already pretty much decided that they need to do something. But, um, how that would run in a film is treebeard takes them to a meeting, they wait out outside for a long time and then they decide to go and do something about it. So they've added in the jeopardy of them deciding not to act Right, and it takes Merry and Pippin to challenge them and then to bring them to confront them with the damage that Saruman's been doing. That's a change and it means that Treebeard is less you know. Treebeard knows, he knows, he knows what needs to be done and he's talked to Gandalf, so the decision is pretty much from his point of view taken. So he's not the book Treebeard. He's a perfectly decent film, treebeard. But I think if you're thinking you're listening to this and you've only seen the films, I would definitely have a look at how the Ents behave in the book. 34:44 It's very interesting. And the differences. There's a great extra Ent, who you meet, the young one, quickbean. And what I do like is the way they all storm Isengard. I thought how are they going to do this? It's just like an impossible thing to realise. But I think that was very well realised. Yeah, with all the set pieces of breaking the dam and how would a tree take on a a building? You know, I think they did a smashing job on that Very good. 35:23 Okay, so the final piece I want to look at in Two Towers is Faramir and the little trip to Osgiliath. That doesn't happen in the books, folks. Doesn't happen in the books, folks. What happens in the books is Frodo and Sam are taken to the cave where the waterfall is and that's where the confrontation with Faramir happens. And Faramir is much, much nicer in the book than he is in the film. I have a couple of problems. In the film he is shown as condoning, beating up Gollum, and he also drags them off to Gondor. He wants to take the ring. 36:09 Now in the book the point is Faramir doesn't, he refuses. You know they've changed that journey and that's a really big change. It's done script purposes to again add a bit of drama and tension. They they need an antagonist at this point. So okay, here's Faramir. Um, it's not much of a story if he's just a nice guy who helps them on the way. Um, they have to give him a bit of edge, but it means that he's wrenched out of his. It's not consistent with the faramir you then meet again because they've done this to him. So I have a problem with that. Uh, in the, I think it's really unfair to faramir that he has this sort of pro torture little moment in his life, right, yeah, no, agreed, and I think that's you're right, that that's for, you know, screenwriting purposes. 37:00 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) The uh changes in in faramir do help create, you know, kind of this triangle between denethor, boromir and faramir, right. So you have that kind of triad where you're where denethor is kind of pitting vormir against faramir, um, so it heightens the tension and drama there, um, but you also have in in at the same time trying to give faramir a character arc, right. So that's another thing. With all of these different characters, they feel like they have to have an arc. So with aragorn, um, we talked about a little bit last time, uh, you know, he's kind of this unassuming king, as we've actually seen the first film that he, you know, or you know elrond says that he's turned away from that path, right, the path of kingship, and that he's is is hesitant or, if not, you know, waffling on whether or not to actually be king. If that's something he notes, as he notes, this is right, but is that something that he wants to do, that he should do? Um, I think they do that. 37:56 You definitely see that more in the films than in the books and part of that is to create a character arc for him, right. So you need a character arc for every one of these main characters. They have to be and you have to make it the largest arc possible to make it as compelling for audiences to follow. Just have him, as you know, this kind of paragon of virtue and loyalty, um, and justice, then you you don't get as much an arc for him as a character, you get him as kind of a static character which isn't as engaging. And so if you want him to have more screen, screen time, he has to be making some sort of change across scenes. 38:32 And so here, yeah, I think, I think that's part of the purpose. So there's definitely a different feel for the character in the book as opposed to the film and sometimes where I think you understand a bit more in villainizing Denethor. So Denethor, instead of coming across in the books as just kind of a resigned, kind of cold leader who has to do, who does what's necessary, recognizes that he there, that he has to face a loss, and then it's kind of managing that loss, as opposed to kind of an actively evil, almost villainous, um kind of bent here in the in the films. In doing that you're, you know, that character kind of almost elicits that it seems, from faramir um that the faramir if he has to live up to this particular version of his father yeah, there's a good with um the the original time they take osgilius with boromir doing a speech and then the brothers together, uh, and then the father comes along. 39:37 - Julia Golding (Host) It's a very good extra scene, sort of establishing that trio. I like that very much, that scene I. I just wish they hadn't done the beating up of gollum, it just and that plays differently now too as well. 39:51 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So then, looking at that 20 years later with, you know the discussion, you know public discussions about torture, right, military torture and its place or not, or the ethics of that interrogation. 40:04 So that definitely reads differently now than it did and it read shocking and wrong, I think, at the time, but even more so now as the world and the conversations that we're having today have changed in our emphasis. I think seeing that scene yeah, it's definitely you're seeing that, as you know an analog almost for police brutality. That exists, right and is it a serious problem? And so that does certainly the extra. You know the sort of conversations that we're having in terms of what's happening in the world today. It's impossible to divorce that from our experience watching these films and so now it's something wrong at that point I mean we have done things wrong in the past. 40:46 But as far as faramir knows, he's just being roughed up because he looks a bit okay, yeah, because of how he looks exactly exactly right, or or he is he's visited that pool, right that they established in the film that this is this pool that you know the consequence is death. 41:06 - Julia Golding (Host) Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right yeah sorry. 41:09 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) So you do have at least some justification. You know you're set up in the film of. This is an important they don't actually. 41:26 - Julia Golding (Host) Why right some sort of sacred pool and that if you enter and take something out of? 41:28 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) it right that if you're there then keep their um hq secret right, okay, yeah, yeah, so nothing. So it's definitely think, right, right, right, so there's, yeah. So that's what I think, so that that that's what provides, at least their, the justification for the, I think for the characters. But from the audience, I think, think, yeah, it's hard to buy in or be sympathetic toward him. Standing there watching this poor little frail creature with huge eyes get pummeled. 41:48 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah. So there we go. This is the scene, future scriptwriters, that it'd be great if you could read if you're going to give Faramir a character up, what would you do? Decide you, you know, decide a different one and have a go at that, because we think this one is a bit of a not quite, not quite hit the target there, right? So, again, there is so much to talk about in all these films, which is a lot of the pleasure of them, but we've come towards the end of the Two Towers and we're going to leave on the cliffhanger as the film does, not knowing how it's all going to end. So we always have a sort of little moment where we think we're in all the fantasy worlds is the best place for something, and we've talked about Treebeard. So, Jacob, if you were a tree, a sentient tree, which fantasy world would you like to find yourself in? 42:42 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Yeah, well, and I have to, you know, bracket Middle Earth for that. So this is outside of Middle Earth, just because how Tolkien describes it. 42:51 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, because obviously you'd be in Middle Earth. Yeah, I would be. 42:53 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) I would absolutely be there in the Middle Earth, as Tolkien himself describes it. But outside of that I think it's somewhat fantasy or a borderline fantasy with magical realism. Have you read Monster Calls by Patrick Ness? 43:14 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, based on the Wound Out concept. 43:16 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the tree there, the monster, the titular monster in A Monster Calls that yew tree, that landscape and what he does. And for those of you who haven't read it, I highly recommend it, and especially the original illustrated version, illustrated by Jim Kay, has some gorgeous illustrations that really add to this. It's essentially a story about the power of stories to help us understand our lives and to cope with tragedy and loss. Right so deeply moving story. But it's facilitated by this yew tree who tells a series of stories to this child who's coming to terms with his mother's terminal cancer. And so just how? And I loved the book and then the film. 44:11 I don't know if you've seen the film adaptation of Monster Calls. It's well worth seeing. It's written by um patrick ness. He does the screenplay and there's some elements that he adds that kind of amplify the story from the book that he adds to the screenplay. So there's a really interesting example of a book that's great and an adaptation that is, that is at least as good as the book, in part because the author of the book is also the author of the screenplay. 44:36 But this the way that this, this character, is depicted. Liam Neeson voices the tree. So you have I don't know if it's kind of secondhand Aslan vibes that kind of are coming through from visual depictions of animated characters. But Liam Neeson's depiction of this tree and this wisdom that this tree has in being kind of harsh but also loving right, Kind of being firm, in a world where trees can interact with little boys and help them through difficult times, I think that's something that is compelling to me again, perhaps because I have a little boy of my own that I would hope I could be a wise tree and in part, you know, share stories to help him get through hard times that he will inevitably and unfortunately experience in his life. How about you? 45:27 - Julia Golding (Host) Well, I first of all thought a little bit about Avatar, the world of Avatar, but I actually it's not one I love, so my thoughts went back to what I read as a child and I don't often think about Enid Blyton anymore because she'd fallen out of favour or whatever I don't know, but I loved as a child the Magic Faraway Tree stories. Now I don't know what they'd be like to read now, but what I remember this is the different stream. They could be completely. I don't know what they'd be like to read now, but what I remember this is a different stream. They could be completely, I have no idea. But what I remember is there's this massive tree with lots of people living in it, lots of little creatures living in it, but the best thing about it all is at the top. 46:13 A different world touches the top of the tree and it moves on. So the children can climb up the tree and have an adventure, but they have to leave before the world moves on or they get stuck. There's a bit of jeopardy there and I love the idea of this. I suppose probably in the background there's the tree of the world and all those sort of mythic trees is influencing that, but I remember finding that a very powerful tree. I think I won't go back and read it again because I want to keep the fact that it was so amazing still in my mind. I don't want to sort of challenge that. So the magic fire away tree, I'd like to be that. Thank you so much, Jacob, and I look forward to talking to you about Return of the King. 46:57 - Jacob Rennaker (Guest) Thank you so much for having me. 47:00 - Julia Golding (Host) Thank you. 47:05 - Speaker 3 (None) Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast Brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. 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