Mythmakers Encore: The Wonderful Worlds Of TA White

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm an author, but I also am the director of the centre, and today I can't tell you how delighted I am to have TA White with us, who is an author of many absolutely wonderful fantasy series. I'm saying this as a genuine fan as well as somebody who admires her as another author. So thank you so much, Tobey, for coming to be with us today. 00:39 - TA White (Guest) No problem, I'm happy to be here. 00:49 - Julia Golding (Host) I'm happy to be here. So, Tobey, you sort of stand out to me as a writer because you have written in many genres within fantasy. So perhaps for those who aren't familiar with what you do, we should have a little gallop through your series just to give us a sense. So where did you start as a writer? What was the first series that you? 01:03 - TA White (Guest) produced. So the first published series is different from the first series I I started um the first book I wrote. I will probably never make it into anybody else's hands except my, like friends and family who were around when I wrote it. Um the first, the first published book would have been a dragon ridden with the dragon ridden chronicles. Uh, it's a very difficult genre to describe because I didn't really obey genre norms, but it's kind of like fantasy with sci-fi elements, um, or sci-fi with fantasy elements, depending on who you ask um. So that was where I started, and it off of a dream and it was a very sci-fi-esque dream. Chapter one went to a different direction, which was much more fantasy. So that's where I started and then, because I can't make things easy on myself, I kind of transitioned to high fantasy with my Pathfinders or the Broken Lands series and then from there I went to urban fantasy, to sci-fi, like straight sci-fi. So I kind of just write what I want. 02:19 - Julia Golding (Host) The urban fantasy series. Is that the Eileen Travers series? 02:22 - TA White (Guest) Yes, eileen Travers is the urban fantasy series. Is that the Eileen Travers series? Yes, eileen Travers is the urban fantasy, and then the Firebird Chronicles is more of my sci-fi, um, with a couple of fantastical elements to it yeah. 02:36 - Julia Golding (Host) So I mean, I suppose an interesting question for anyone who's got their hands on an author to ask them is is there a sort of particular thing that started you off as a fantasy writer? I was noticing that you talked on your website about starting writing very young, uh, with a partner who then threw her biscuits at you. Is this right? What happened there? 02:59 - TA White (Guest) uh, so it was like that would have been when we lived in North Carolina. But I was like in second first grade and I couldn't. I had a little. I struggled to learn to read, which meant I struggled to learn to write. And so at that age, like I really wanted to write a ghost story and I had to partner up with somebody who was a little bit older, like a year or two older than me, because I couldn't do it by myself. And like we did it for a day and a half, and then they were like I'm bored with this, I don't want to do it, and I got really mad and I I maybe threw a cookie at her. 03:32 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, that way, and it was there a particular book. Once you did get into reading, was there a particular book that inspired you to follow your path. 03:43 - TA White (Guest) Yeah, it's kind of funny because I started wanting to write before I could actually really like, before I started liking to read. And then Nancy Drew in third grade, the second time around, was the book that got me into reading. But the book that got me into fantasy was Tamara Pyrrhus, the Woman who Walks like a man. It's the third in the series, but I was living in Okinawa because my dad was stationed there and they didn't have the first two books in the series at that library. So I started with the third and it just kind of it was the first time I'd realized that fantasy could be like this really fun genre that's about real things but told in a different way, and that you can have real life problems but with magic and other things mixed in with it to just make it a little bit more interesting. 04:35 - Julia Golding (Host) Is that the Alana series, the Alana Chronicles? Have you read the Kel ones? 04:41 - TA White (Guest) I have Kaladri oh, she's my favorite the protector of the Small. I actually think I like her a little bit more than Alanna, because Alanna had like magic to fall back on and she had the goddess. She was like kind of a chosen one, but you don't find that out till, like the second book, I think, whereas Kaladri or Kel, she's just a normal person who went after their dream and had to work very, very hard to make that happen. And I really like stories where you have to like it's not just given to you and you're not just special, you, you have to actually work to be the person you want and to achieve your dreams. So that's that's like my favorite of her series yeah, and I absolutely love that. 05:23 - Julia Golding (Host) One of the books is all about how to manage a refugee camp for internally displaced people, right, yeah, that was one of my favorites too. 05:30 It's right up my street as a former development aid worker and also it's just such a breath of fresh air after all these big battles, things, what happens to the civilians, you know, very, very poignant and they're great, great books. So another book recommendation for listeners is to go and explore the Tamara Pierce um back library. Um, so what was your journey to being an actual published author after the biscuit throwing episode? 05:56 - TA White (Guest) uh well, it was kind of like a long, circuitous journey, like I. Uh, in high school there was this we had where I in high school there was this we had where I went to high school. You had a senior thesis project that you had to do to graduate and it had to have a written element. So I decided to write a book and that's the book that nobody will ever see. So I wrote that book and then I went to college for journalism at the Ohio University Script School of Journalism, because I figured I could work on my craft while having a full-time job. And then I graduated and nobody was hiring. 06:33 So my mom told me to join the military, which I did, and to do public affairs for them, which I did. So the first time after that was I was in Afghanistan. And it's kind of a situation where you're in a very small area and you can't go anywhere, except for missions, which I did, but you're stuck in one place and you don't have the distractions of being in, like the United States, to take away from your creativity. And there is a point where you don't want to read any more books and you don't want to watch any more TV shows, and it had always been my dream to be a writer. So I figured, hey, I'm here for a year, why not write a book? And that's what I did. And that's where Dragon Ridden Chronicles came no-transcript explains the Eileen Travers backstory. 07:57 Yeah, those three years were very instrumental in forming me as a person. So a lot of my books draws from that as like the creative incentive, because you go through a lot in a very short period of time and you kind of find out who you are and then when you have to write these other things that draw on the military, it's just a little bit easier. So yeah, aileen is like a product of me coming home and some of the anger and upset that I had and how disconnected I felt to being home, like some of the conversations she has with her mom are things that I've talked with about other people coming home as a soldier and how people think you have PTSD and everybody's the same. So yeah, that was a big part of that character and why I wrote her, because it was kind of cathartic. 08:54 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, and her experience in the military is brilliantly specific, being the sort of the camera person who goes along with the guys on patrol, and I did think this is this is really well researched, and now I know why. You know, yeah. 09:09 - TA White (Guest) I didn't do her job, I was more um, but I knew the guys who did her job. Like I was public affairs, I did go on the mission but it wasn't just to take photos like I took photos, but it was also to get the story. And so the combat cameras. 09:23 - Julia Golding (Host) I had a couple of friends who were combat camera and that was really fun to talk to them and figure out how that job differed from mine yeah, I mean, I think what's really interesting about that experience is most, I would say, that all of your heroines have a problem with authority and is that fair? And there's a particular thing with is it you call her aileen or eileen aileen? 09:47 - TA White (Guest) I call her aileen, but I think it's supposed to be okay um, she, she's. 09:54 - Julia Golding (Host) Well, it's not not a plot spoiler that she's a, a baby vampire, a young vampire. So she has had this past where she already probably was in a authority structure which she had thought she left, finding herself plunged into this one where you have to be a hundred years before you're given you know a chance to go out on your own at all. So it makes it makes sense now, totally makes sense. 10:20 - TA White (Guest) It's funny you say that Cause, like a lot of people who find out I was in the military are like I can't see you in the military and like the first couple of times that happened I kind of was like laughed it off and then finally I was like why do people keep saying this to me? Is it because, like, I'm a girl and they're like no, because you have massive issues with authority and anytime anybody tells you what to do, you like push back and they're like we can't see you being in a situation where you follow orders. It's like okay, well, there's different sides to me. 10:49 - Julia Golding (Host) So and I kind of put that into the books too- yeah, what I like about the way you do that and so this is sort of diving across all the heroines now is that you also point out cleverly how difficult it is to be with that person who is the rebel. In Aileen's case it's the. You know she's a difficult person to be a friend with, even though she's desperately loyal to, goes to the extreme. But her friend Caroline, you know she's quite blunt with her, so you don't make it into the romantic rebel, the sort of James Dean thing. It's very much a here's a square peg in a round hole, bruising a few people as she goes through life. 11:34 I think that's why I like your book so much, actually, because often the fantasy aspect is a sort of wonderful package around a really interesting set of characters or or express through them, so that she, she, definitely ticks that box. So do you? Um, is, is writing what you do all the time, or are you also exploring other forms of creativity? Or because I think a lot of people who are aspiring writers want to know how do they make it work, do you? You obviously been in the military, but did you go straight from the military into writing, or was there a transition phase? 12:08 - TA White (Guest) no, yeah, there was a transition phase. Like I do writing full-time now I'm very lucky in that I can support myself and my family with my writing and just my writing. But that was like five years in the making. Like I published dragon ridden, um, I think, in like 2013, 2014. 12:27 And, uh, I didn't go full time until several, several years later and I I worked in marketing for a company, um, a credit bureau type company, and so I did that. And then, like on the, in the evenings, like I'd write for an hour and a half, two hours, like I tried to get a thousand to 2000 words, like a couple of times a week, and then I, on the weekends, would like write double, whatever the week uh thing was. So, uh, I had to. Essentially, it's like working two jobs, but it was what I've always wanted to do since I was very small, so I was happy to make the sacrifice and I kind of needed a purpose in my life and I felt like this was what I was put on the planet to do was to tell stories and entertain people and give them a break from all the bad things that might be going on in their life. 13:21 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, hear here, absolutely keep on writing, please. So now on to the fantasy stuff, which is kind of our raison d'etre really. Um, so you, as just recapping again, you've written in many different um fantasy and sci-fi sub-genres, starting with dragon ridden, the kind of sci-fi fantasy mash-up um urban fantasy, and so I understand that urge to cross genres, because that's what I do as a writer as well. But are you conscious of different rules in the different genres or you just know what you're doing when you're in there? Are you a sort of visitor who understands the culture of the place you're in, or do you actually set yourself specific rules when you start writing in a different genre? 14:06 - TA White (Guest) so, like I'm a fan of all the genres I work in, like I read massively in those or I did in those genres. Um, so, like with aileen travers, that's urban fantasy. Like I read, I've read all the urban fantasy genre, like authors that are really big in the space, like Patricia Briggs, ilona Andrews and many, many others. So I know the genre tropes that come with that. But the fun thing is when you can reach those fans while bringing something new to the to the table. And I think that's why people like what I do. Um is because, like, I'm following the genres but I'm doing it in a way that doesn't necessarily always isn't as widespread as maybe other writers. Um, because I know with, like my freeze, a lot I get the comment that it's basically urban fantasy in space. And it makes sense because, like, I read a lot of urban fantasy authors, so that aspect kind of has crept into my writing. So I kind of just concentrate on like one, whatever the genre is, but when I feel the need to break the rules, I break. 15:23 I write what I want to read yeah and so I try to follow the rules and then, like every once in a while, I'm like I don't feel like following these rules anymore. Um, I guess that's my, my even against authority coming coming out yeah. 15:40 - Julia Golding (Host) So are you a, a planner or somebody who feels their way through the plot? So when you sit down to write your next let's say it's your next dragon written book, do you already know what you're going to do in it, or is it very much okay? I'm going to spend six months with Tate now. Off I go. 15:58 - TA White (Guest) It's a little bit of both. 15:59 Like I always start with the plan, I don't always get to the plan, and that then me come up with a new plan which, during the course of which, you're kind of feeling your way in through the book, like I know some things and then I have to figure out the rest. 16:15 Like, uh, like I'm working on the fourth firebrick book for the series right now. So I I know several scenes and I know how it's going to end, but I don't always know how those scenes connect. And that's like kind of the thing you figure out and sometimes, like you know what you want to happen, but you don't know the arc of what happens. And then you have to, like you write and write and write, and then you get to like a certain point where you hit critical mass and then you're like, oh, that's how that's supposed to go, and then you have to go and redo everything. But I don't feel like I could get to that critical mass moment where it's like this epiphany, unless I did a lot of like feeling my way through. So like, like I said, I start with a plan and then things go bad and I have to figure out a new plan? 17:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I've. I've had the experience in writing where I had a plan and then my characters misbehave and do something else. When I'm writing the scene, mid scene, they're running off in a completely different direction. Is that an experience that's familiar? 17:16 - TA White (Guest) Oh, yes, uh, that's like pretty much every book at this point. Like it used to be a lot easier. When I first started, I was much better at following the plan and then, like I think around rules of redemption is when my writing kind of changed and I wrote the book I wanted to write rather than what the book wanted to write. So you just have to be used to throwing things away and being okay when your characters are like oh yeah, that was a good idea, but we're going to go do this now. And this is much more interesting because I feel that it takes a little bit of effort to get to the really good stuff and sometimes you have to put all the junk and then you kind of have to uncover the gems under the junk. So that's kind of how I do, like it's a little bit exploratory with a goal in mind. 18:07 - Julia Golding (Host) I'd say that one thing that your books have in common across all the genres and all the series is and tell me if I'm wrong but usually led by the heroine, who is usually lovable but difficult, and there's often a very slow burn romance. It's not a romance that's over in the first book. It builds and builds. Tell us about your heroines. Do you have some tips for writing characters that aren't like cookie cutouts, that actually feel individuals? 18:43 - TA White (Guest) cookie cutouts that actually feel individuals, uh. 18:45 So I don't know, like, because I I kind of I I give them a flaw, like I I find the thing that most people would find like super annoying and then I try to make that thing what is great about them but is also like a drawback. 18:56 Like with shea uh, she's the heroine in the Broken Land series, pathfinder. Uh, she, she's really really good at her job and like we all know this throughout the book, but she's also really really bad at communicating with people. And you have to be able to communicate with people to get them to do what you want so you can save their lives and not have them go kill themselves on accident in this world I've created, and that like was a big issue with her throughout the series and she to overcome that, because you have to give them something internal to overcome, to really connect with the reader. Like, and I really enjoy people who are flawed, but that flaw is also a strength. Like Shaya, as bad as she is with communicating, she's also super stubborn and she will do the things that other people won't. Because of that, both of those things. 19:54 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, she also has a deep desire to teach other people. It kind of conflicts with the thing about communicating it's it's the kind of fingers burnt situation, isn't she? She's tried and failed and so she's keeping back. Um, you know it starts right. 20:12 - TA White (Guest) I think that's another thing. 20:14 Like I always give them a backstory that might be like their inciting incident, of why they have this flaw, like with Shaya it's she led a mission into the outlands or the badlands that's what it is the badlands, sorry. She led a mission into the badlands and a lot of people died during that mission. So she's kind of scarred on the inside. So you have to give them like an emotional backstory for people to like relate and that backstory fuels the events of the book. With Kira from the Firebird series we see that she was a commander in the military fighting against an alien invasion and almost her entire team dies and it makes her like kind of curl into like a little ball and shut everybody out for years on end until the events of the series and you see her start to come out of her shell. Um, you have to have both those things to make the reader feel like they're actually talking to a person or like reading about a person versus something that's too deep and flat yeah, what you do as well, as you hold back those backstories. 21:23 - Julia Golding (Host) You know another book may start with, you know that as the prologue, but you sometimes keep it back for a long, long time. I wondered, in the case of Tate, who is purposely kept, sort of amnesiac basically? Who is purposely kept sort of amnesiac, basically, when you started working with her, did you know what it was, or were you also at the same state of not knowing as your character? 21:50 - TA White (Guest) So I knew parts, like I knew she wasn't from the era I was writing in and I knew she'd been in the cryos chamber for like centuries slash thousands of years. So I knew that there was like a disconnect. I did not know all of the things that came out later. I didn't know the part she played or the fact, and I knew that she had friends she'd left behind in that era and that's why, like the ending, you see one of those friends in the dream, um, but like I knew those hurts, but I didn't know all of it um, so like I kind of made things up as I went along yeah, and that's the great thing about writing is it's kind of be a discovery process to what your brain is suggesting subconsciously, isn't it? 22:37 - Julia Golding (Host) you know that's fun. You also, I've noticed that you use a sense of isolation and loneliness as a great starting point for your heroines, because usually again correct me if I missed one there is a process where your isolated heroine is taken into a new form of family. Is this again something that felt it was a conscious choice, or was it something that jumped out right? 23:07 - TA White (Guest) yeah, um, it's a little bit of both, like. I think the reason that's like a huge theme throughout is because it's something I've suffered from in the past, like there have been instances where I felt isolated or cut off from the people around me, and so I've been lucky enough to have people to bring me back into the mix and not let me stay out in the cold. So I think that because that's something I really understand and I've just added it to the writing so like and they all most of the heroines, like have been part of a group at some point and then something has isolated them and then they come back and they learn that you can't really exist by yourself and you have to, like put yourself out there and take those chances. I didn't I didn't suffer from anything like that, but that's kind of like why they usually go in that path. 24:09 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, and thinking about this romance aspect which I said is is a, you know, it's definitely not the sort of it's a book which you wait a long time for the relationship to build first Is is there any tips you can give people about writing a slow burn romance from? 24:34 your experience of having to do this, so I't know if I ever like. So it's really weird. Let's say it's not romantic in the hearts and flowers way, it's not. It's not like a, a notting hill kind of thing or anything like that, but there is definitely a attraction the thing or anything like that, but there is definitely a attraction. 24:50 - TA White (Guest) so for me, like a really good story always involves like relationships in some way and I find I like to have them pair up by the end of the series. But the book is primarily about like, whoever the main character is, whether it's Shaya or Kira or Tay, though their journey, though their journey is the focus of the story, but I want the journeys to also incorporate having maybe a romantic partner. Um, so like that's that. I think that's like the biggest. Uh, way I do it is like the story is, for instance, with um Kira. It's about finding her friend that's been kidnapped by aliens and then during the course of that journey she meets great on and then eventually they become like he's not going to let her just go and be by herself and kill herself in this mission she's undertaken, so they kind of butt head and then they kind of come together and realize they're on the same side. So I think that's the biggest thing is like have to let them come to the realization slowly and I'm a very slow person when it comes to romance Like my husband and I dated for like three years before we got married. 26:04 It was a year before we said we loved each other, so it's something that I like. I'm not the person who will like fall in love. I might be attracted, but I'm gonna take my time getting to the realization and I wanted that to be something that my characters had, because love isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a journey and I think that's what I tried for in my books. I also don't do love triangles because I really don't like them. I'm very black and white in my character. Once you have someone, that's kind of like the only person in my mind and my character's mind. So that's why I don't like to do like oh we're together, we're not together, oh we're together, we're not together, type things. 26:52 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I think for me, love triangles were kind of spoiled or exhausted maybe is the word by the Twilight books when they were out and I thought, oh no, there was a lot of other similar books at the time, so not another love triangle. So I'm with you there books at the time, not another love triangle. So, yeah, I'm with you there. So, um, I actually spend probably more time listening to your books than I do, uh, reading them, because I find them great for just listening to what I'm doing, my dog walks and, you know, stacking the dishwasher and all those sort of household things. Um, so, what do you think about the audiobooks and the role they're now playing in bringing you new audiences? Do you, for? Do you have a say in who reads them? 27:34 - TA White (Guest) So yes, tantor is the one who publishes my audios and I get the final say they will suggest narrators for me, like, do you like this narrator for this story? And then I have a yes or no and if I don't like them they'll go find more. Um, but I I have a very confession to make. I've never listened, except for Miss Ditch, which I produced on my own. I've never actually listened to a full book of mine, because I find it extremely grating hearing my words read back to me. I find it extremely grating hearing my words read back to me. So I hope they're really good, and people have said they are no no, they are, they are. 28:14 They are good. 28:14 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, yeah, no. So I think you can rest assured. They're good ambassadors for your work and I do look forward. Even though I've read the books, I still will get the audio version, just because I think for me, listening to audio books I find it hard to listen to. I don't know a literary novel or a classic, some kind of Dickens or something, on audio, but a well-told fantasy novel like yours are just perfect audio listens. They keep you, you know you can follow the plot and keep you interested. So, um, also on my read of your website, you mentioned that you have a secret project. I don't want you obviously I'm not asking you to divulge what that is, but are we talking about a new series? Are you starting something entirely new? Is that what's going on there? 29:07 - TA White (Guest) That's. Yeah, I have like four or five series that have been in my brain for like a couple years now and I'm getting to the point where it's hard to find things to read. You want to read is the books in my head, and that's what happened. When I wrote Firebird is like I had three series going and I knew I shouldn't do another series and I couldn't resist anymore. I wrote that book like mostly on the weekend after I finished, whatever the main book was for the week. And I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to wanting to take time from what I'm working on to to do this new stuff, from what I'm working on to do this new stuff. So, yeah, there is stuff coming down the pipe and I'm really really excited for it. I'm going back and forth on which one I'm going to do first, but yeah, I'm super, super, super excited. 30:02 - Julia Golding (Host) Well, that's great, I'll be amongst the customers buying it first, so that's wonderful. So one of the things that we do writing courses for people who are um sort of stretching their wings as fantasy writers, and we spend one at least one of our sessions on world building. So when you do world building, are you the kind of person who does the Tolkien thing of spending like ages building a whole world and a map and, um, I know languages and all that stuff, or well, you tell us what you do, um, so I I don't. 30:38 - TA White (Guest) I don't spend a lot of time, um, on the world building, like I will. So the place and the setting in the world, I do take time, like with pathfinders. I knew I wanted, like this certain theme of outsiders versus insiders and us versus them, and and I thought how I can demonstrate that to readers. And I knew that there was this tribe called the tritary who are from this distant lands, who are conquering things. I wanted a clear division between the lowlands and the highlands and the badlands. But that was pretty much the extent. I didn't go through and say, okay, where are the major cities? I know that there's Pathfinders have their own little castle somewhere in the highlands, but everything else is like, okay, I know I want these to be like very small villages that have been isolated from the world because of the situation which you learn about in the books. Um, but I didn't go through and be like, oh, let's go name all of these, these villages now, before I even start writing. 31:45 It's kind of something where you you start writing and you're like, okay, well, they have to go to this village to meet these people. So what is village called? What is it? Where is it located? Do they have a good for the reason for being there? Like you have to have a reason for everything. Like you can't just have somebody go somewhere and be like nice, here's, like all these really cool things. They have to have a reason for being there, and for them it was like trade. 32:11 And then you kind of start going from there and then religion will come into it, sometimes like based off like OK, do you want religions in here? Ok, what does that religion looks like? What is the world, what are their fears? And then you go from there and you build it. What are their fears? And then you go from there and you build it. Um, as for the, the language, I kind of just like put syllables together and then that's like whatever the word is, and like I try to think about culturally, like what is going to be important to this race I'm creating, or the species, um, and I try to think about those kinds of things. 32:50 - Julia Golding (Host) But yeah, Thank you and I think I'd be a relief to some people who feel like who you know a lot of. There are fantasy writers who do it the other way around, obviously, and spend ages on this, and they can be quite daunting if you turn up a writing class and someone says, yes, here's my novel series I've been working on since I was 14 and they speak six languages and you know you don't have to do. That is what you're saying. You can be very I think. 33:14 - TA White (Guest) I think it reads for me it reads better discover the interesting things about your world a little bit organically, like you should start from a base. 33:24 You should have an idea of, like the topography, like the types of people, like what's important to those people, um, like, if there's a real that in there, you can, you can kind of think about that beforehand, but I prefer to let the the circumstances of the novel dictate what we're talking about. Like in um dragon and chronicles you this religion, but it's based on ancestor and that's because of the people at the beginning of this world having to make sacrifices. Everybody kind of worships those five, three or four people, but they're people and it's not like and that's why that religion has developed that way. I took the circumstances of the world and then developed something that made sense within the parameter of that world and I think for me that's the best way to develop a world. Other people will probably tell you something different. I think it differs for every person, but you have to find out what works For me organically building the world and making it a little bit more complicated with each book. That's what's really interesting about writing and reading fantasy and sci-fi. 34:37 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, and using a character to whom everything is new is a way of using that as a natural way of showing, because they are discovering it too. So you don't get the download of information unnecessarily. The other port that you can get Right. Well, it's been wonderful talking to you, Tobey, and before we let you go back to your writing, hopefully we always end the podcast with where in all the fantasy worlds is it best placed for something? 35:06 Now I came to your writing first, through the Pathfinder series. In fact, my daughter, who's in her twenties, said to me oh, mum, you know we often share book tips. She said oh, I really like this series, I think you'll like it, which is true, and Shaya, as you mentioned, is very good at her job of finding a path and she has some maps, some annotated maps, maps and there's quite a theme about bad maps and her own good maps, uh, in the books. So I thought I'd ask you to pick not your own necessarily, though feel free to do so where you think in all the fantasy worlds is the best map uh, so a would have trouble, like there's so many places you could pick. 35:51 - TA White (Guest) Uh, I'll stick to my own stuff because I don't want to actually say somebody's name wrong, um, but I think from my my stuff, like pat, the pathfinder world would have the best, the most interesting maps at least. Like when you talk about a single planet, like firebird, that's like a whole, but they're star maps. 36:11 - Julia Golding (Host) Um, I haven't really investigated the topography and all that stuff for that series, but I think the broken lands and the pathfinders have the best type of maps so, just coming back on my side, I was thinking about this and, um, I think there's I have to mention, of course, a sort of honorable mention to um, the marauders map of which is obviously a map of one building in harry potter, but that, a sort of magic map that moves, uh, that would be really cool. And then there's, of course, the iconic maps, and I, if we go iconic, it's got to be the one in the Hobbit with the dragon flying and the moon letters that are hidden. 36:52 - TA White (Guest) Yeah, if I was to pick somebody else, it's always going to be like Hobbit and Tolkien and that world, Because like he put so much thought into it. I don't really know too many other like there are other authors who have put that much thought, but like I feel like he's went above what everybody else has. 37:15 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, thank you so much for spending some time with us, and we'll be putting a link to your website in the show notes so people can go and, if they haven't yet had the delight of reading your series, go and find your books, and there's a brief description of each series on your website so people will find which one they want Urban Fantasy or whatever. Anyway, so, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. 37:46 - Speaker 3 (None) Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts worldwide.