Transcript
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Hello, and welcome to myth makers.
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Myth makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives
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brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy. My name is Julia Golden.
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I'm the director of the center, uh,
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a keen talking fan and also an author in my own. Right.
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And today I thought I would dedicate this episode to what I've gleaned
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as a storyteller about the upcoming Amazon series
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rings of power. Now, there is plenty of information out there.
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The publicity teams are in full throttle. Um,
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so you can find out lots of information about the, uh,
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the actors who are playing the parts and, um,
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news from the cast and that kind of thing.
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So I thought our added value was to look at it as storytellers and
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what we might, um,
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expect and the decisions that might have been taken in order to write this
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particular series.
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Cuz I think is an absolutely fascinating challenge that they they're facing.
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Most of their material is drawn from the appendices in, uh,
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the return of the king. And in fact,
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the information in that is very slight. So they've had a very blank canvas,
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um, to work on,
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but the absolute key thing they've done and I can understand why
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they've done it is they've truncated the time period.
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So if you just look at the list of the people, uh,
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involved the characters involved and you look at the, uh,
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the name of the piece, you can see what they've done.
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So in the second age, there are two main events,
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both of which involve Sarah. The first,
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which happens earlier on is the establishment of, uh, Elvin kingdom,
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uh, just outside Kado or more Maria, uh,
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where Keller BOR, who is one of the leading craftsmen of the era,
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he's in charge of that sort of area. And he is, uh,
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creating rings of power and into this place comes sour
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who, uh, appears quite a sort of attractive figure.
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And because he is also a great craftsman,
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he shows the elves how to make these rings and that's where the rock gets
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in. Uh, cuz he twists it for evil. And it's also the time where he,
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um, he,
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he forges the one ring that dominates the story of the Lord of the rings.
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So there's that SI that whole sort of nexus of characters,
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it includes go includes Aron.
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It includes skill goad more about all these in a bit later. Um,
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but that all happens in terms of the time of,
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of the second age, that all happens in about 1600.
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So if you just wanna lodge it in your head as like the equivalent of tu days
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for us now,
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the second area of major activity in that age is
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about the fall of new Manor. Up to that point.
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Um, new Manor was set apart as an island for the sort of the good guys,
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the good humans, the good men,
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and it was set between middle earth and the undying lands
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as a sort of special dispensation.
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It's a kind of Atlantis and that gives you a hint of what happens there.
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And there's a whole series of very interesting Kings in that, uh, place.
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If you want to read more about them, there's a lot in the unfinished tales,
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which are really well worth reading, including a fascinating husband and wife,
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um, story, which is quite unusual in talking anyway.
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Um,
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it seems as though where they've settled as the script writers is at the end of
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that. Um,
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and here we have a story about Muriel.
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Who's one of the name characters. She is the last queen of that place.
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She was the legitimate queen,
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but was forced into marriage with our Faron.
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And it's his interaction with Sarah that really causes and he a
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plot spoiler, the downfall of Luminor.
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So she's quite a tragic figure if they're playing it straight. Um,
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because she's in this force marriage and, you know,
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disaster strikes and new Manor is punished for the arrogance
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of a because SA again comes in and
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persuades him that he didn't Abey. Uh,
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the God's commands. It's a bit like a garden of Eden story,
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very much like a garden of Eden story that he can sell to the undying lands,
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uh,
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that forbidden fruit is what our fire and sinks his teeth
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into.
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And I punishment Luminor is sunk and the remnant
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escapes and they are the founders of the kingdom of Goor the, uh,
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ancestors of, uh, Aragon and so on.
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But the important thing about this is all of this happens
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in the year 32 55.
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So if I've said the events of the 40 of the one ring is back in two
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times, you know, that 32 55 hasn't come,
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that's probably only appeared in something like star Trek,
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it's thousands of years in the future.
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So in order to bring those two stories together,
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they've crushed the timelines.
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So the second age is really sort of squashed together, uh,
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or I assume they're doing that rather than some time slip thing. Um,
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would, that would be very hard to tell. So let's,
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I think they must have sort of moved one set of things from there and one sets
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from the future as it were, and they've brought them in alignment.
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Now what happens as a storyteller when you do that? Well,
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I think it's really interesting to look at it in parallel tracks like that,
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because what you see is the same pattern.
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So Sarah starts the second age defeated because his great sort
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of Lord, uh, the original bad guy,
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Mor goth has been defeated and chained.
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And so he's like a remnant of that power. So he's in a, on the back foot,
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he comes to the ELs with promising. He's gonna be a good boy.
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He's gonna show them how to do all these wonderful crafts and the overlord king
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who is Gil Gallard doesn't believe him. So here's the skeptic,
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but because he's such a good artifact, sir,
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the VIN Smiths of a Regian are persuaded to listen
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and to invite him in and steal his craft or share their craft secrets.
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And so you've got a seduction going on and that word is actually used in the
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appendices to describe that relationship.
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It's a seduction let's hope they don't take that too literal in the Amazon
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series. Um, I it's meant by talking in a sort of intellectual seduction way.
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And so Sarah appears as the tempter then, cause he's holding out knowledge.
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Here we go back to the garden of Eden again,
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it's the fruits of the tree of knowledge. And so
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what then happens is basically the gig is up after a while
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because killer Brior, who's the main, um,
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Smith in that region,
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he works out or he sees the plot.
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The rings have give you access as you a member from Lord of the rings rings,
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give you access to the mind of SA.
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So he sees what's going on and they realize they
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have to defeat sour. And there is a battle there,
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um, for supremacy and that's when a re is basically wiped out. Um,
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Elron flees with the remnant to set up, um,
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Dale and I'm afraid the future for killer BBA. Isn't that bright.
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So that sort of one set of battles. So you've got the pattern.
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There is Sarah has tempt to first of all, um,
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despite the warnings is embraced and welcomed people,
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see what he's up to leads to a clash leads to a battle that same
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pattern is repeated in Luminor.
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So he's first of all, um,
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brought there because a thinks he, he,
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he sails to middle earth and to,
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to Umar in fact, which we've not yet seen. Um, and
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Sarah sort of, you know,
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frustrates himself and sort of claims to be overwhelmed by his, you know,
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the marvels of his fleet and everything, but he's playing a longer game here.
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So he's welcomed to Luminor where he then spreads his poison.
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There are people saying, look out warning.
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He's not only he's cracked up to be.
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So there are people doing the Gill galled role of warning against him,
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but that isn't obviously going down well with R on. He,
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he wants to believe his top king, uh,
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his pride is his downfall. And so,
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um, his, uh, his plots aren't unmastered until too late.
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So the seduction has gone on and again,
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that word is used in the appendices.
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He seduces the people
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and that is what leads to the attempt to overthrow, um,
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go as far as the undying lands, you know, try and be gods themselves,
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which then means Luminor is destroyed. So another kingdom is destroyed,
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same pattern you invite in the, your own destruction. You,
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um, don't listen to the warnings, you're seduced by what he seems to offer.
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You take a fatal step of, um,
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creating rings or sailing to the undying lands. And then you lose a kingdom,
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a kingdom is destroyed as a result.
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So I think what they're doing is running those two stories in sync
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or in some way,
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meshing them be very interesting to see where they find the connective tissue.
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If it's going to be a sort of, this happens first and then that, um,
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for a second series or if they're actually gonna run it parallel though,
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that has the problem about where is sour gonna be, um,
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because he's clearly in a Reon for the first set of
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events and clearly in Newman for the second. So just guessing at the moment,
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I, I would've thought that they established Newman or in the first series and
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possibly saved that for, um, what happens next,
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but we'll see. Uh,
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so that's the big thing that I've sort of seen as a storyteller is looking at
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what you would do if you bring those two, um,
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big time gaps into alignment, what,
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what story you are end you end up facing and what you would then do with
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that story.
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And I think the other important aspect, which I've been thinking of, um,
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from the point of view of telling a story is about the choice of characters to
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feature.
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And that's becoming plainer as well as we get more details about who's doing
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who's playing what,
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and I think what's particularly interesting is the decision to bring in the
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Harit as sort of proto hos.
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Now the half foots are mentioned in the,
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um, sort of talking backstory, but really,
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I don't think that he was thought of them being present until the third age,
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but let's allow them that little bit of license they've gotta come from
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somewhere. Uh, obviously haven't they,
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and we do know that there are races of small people
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halflings living on the banks of the river because that's where Gollum comes
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from and his society hasn't just sprung out of nowhere when he finds, uh,
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the one ring in the river. So I can see exactly why they're doing that.
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It sounds perfectly good idea, but from a storytelling point of view,
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I think that this is possibly an attempt to conquer the most
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pressing problem that they have, which is,
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do we care about elves?
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Do we care about high races of men speaking
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in rather more formal language?
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That's always the problem about adaptations of high fantasy is where do we,
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as human beings connect in Lord of the rings,
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we connect at the level of the hobbits.
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So introducing hobbits or smaller people into the story,
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give us a relatable level.
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What is interesting is how much these people will be the drivers
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of the story, clearly photos journey.
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And those of his companions is the, uh,
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the substance of Lord of the rings.
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But with the material from the second age, they're not there.
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They aren't the people, uh,
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driving the forging of the w rings or the downfall of Newman.
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So what little we do know about this is that one
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of the characters who are in the smaller people, um,
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bracket is Noy brand Brandy foot played by Markella Kavana
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and she is Brandy foot sounds like one of these
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port Manto words, Brandy wine, proud for all the rest of it.
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So you see where that came from. Um,
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and we know that she and a close friend,
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poppy proud fellow played by Megan, Richard, um,
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discover a man fallen a bit like a flaming meteor from the sky who's played by
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an called Daniel Wayman. Now I'm sure this will all be revealed very soon,
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but if I was a betting person,
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I would reckon that possibly that character could be sour possibly,
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cuz that would fit with the idea of like a fallen angel, but we'll find out out.
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So it may be that they're introducing the hobbits as sort of behind
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the scenes movers and shakers. I E um,
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if you think of sour being a bit like the ring,
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the role of the ring is to bring evil into different people's lives in Lord of
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the rings. Sarah does that, um, in the second age.
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So it could be in that they are, you know, mistakenly, um,
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from their point of view, introducing evil when they really didn't mean it,
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that would be an interesting direction to take. And of course there's a,
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another possibility, there were so many possibilities that the fallen,
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um, man,
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the naked man that could also be thinking it through a reference to one of the
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wizards, maybe even Gander. Um, he, isn't sort of,
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as far as the text are concerned, present during the second age, really,
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but he's alive, uh, because he's one of these, um,
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spiritual creatures as opposed to a natural born human lifespan
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type person and looking at the last, the trailers,
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there was a definitely a touch of Gand off the gray about the actor playing that
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part. So, um, we know that the, uh,
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Gand off has a friendship with the, uh,
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the habits that started on before the time of photo.
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And Billbo so maybe we're going to see the beginning of that.
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That would be an interesting, uh, an interesting development. No,
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it of course what the problem is. He can't really intervene, um,
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in the major plots,
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unless it's very subtle and behind the scenes because it's not there in the
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appendices, but we'll see. But there is an attempt here to,
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I think, make us relate to these characters,
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which I think is absolutely necessary.
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What I'm worrying about is where their story goes,
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because it seems as though one of the main drivers of this series is goad.
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We know goad story. So let's have a look at goad.
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We have met her in Lord of the rings as the
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mature VIN lady.
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She's already very old by the second age.
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So casting her as a younger actress. Again, we could see why,
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but she's pretty old, already thousands of years old. Um,
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and she originally comes from the undying lands as part of the Exodus
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of the ELs from that place. Uh, she,
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I would say that the Exodus of the elves is, is,
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is a shameful episode in health history because it involves,
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um, <inaudible> battles between Elvin families.
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She's sort of a little bit aside from that, but still that whole episode is,
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is, is very fraught. And, um, um, people,
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you know, there is a sense of the greed of fi who's the original
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Elvin craftsman who makes the silver reels. So the,
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the Exor is actually driven by a sense of pride again,
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over the things that have been created,
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a wish to get out from under the thumb of the way the undying lands
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are governed.
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So in GLA you have, um, an elf maiden, who's already had a very long history.
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She, um, in the second age,
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I mean she comes to meet the person.
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She eventually marries who Kell born.
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And if you look at talking's writings, uh,
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there is a number of different versions of where they live and when they live.
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But again, this is things you'll find in the silver Meridian, but,
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and also finding the unfinished tales.
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So they are present at the same time as the forging of the
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rings. And of course, collateral ends up with one of them.
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So she's clearly gonna be a major person in this series,
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but how human is she,
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if she is this person of great power,
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if she is this person who has had all these thousands of years to grow and
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mature and gain her wisdom,
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she's less relatable to you and me isn't she than an a Hoit
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that's, that's one of the problems.
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It's why I think it's one of the reasons why people find the so Meridian more
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difficult to read is because it's about heroic figures done in a
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historical way,
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rather than in relatable way of the adventures of small people in a big world.
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So that's the problem they have to tackle as writers.
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I can see strategies they're taking. So using the hos,
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making collateral younger. And of course,
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what we yet to see is quite what they do with the new Menor.
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This will be fascinating.
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And it's where it might end up in getting of Thrones territory,
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because Muriel as the forced wife of our,
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um, clearly there's more potential there for,
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um, more adult material.
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I think that the,
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the series is going to try and stay in family watching territory, but still the,
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the, uh,
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the tone of that story of its tragic trajectory does seem
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outside the redemptive arc that you get in Lord of the rings.
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I think that's a real that's that's, that is a big challenge.
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So maybe that is why they are introducing completely new
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characters.
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And among those new characters is possibly the one I really looking forward
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to seeing is a female Wolf called DSA. So,
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whereas in the Hobbit films of Peter Jackson, we got a couple of,
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uh,
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Wolff women in the sort of background characters looks like they've actually got
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one as a foreground character.
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So I think another conclusion I've come to as a sort of storyteller
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is the effort has been made to foreground really interesting female characters,
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because it's clear that when talking was writing, um,
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he wasn't thinking in terms of having leading female characters in his,
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uh, novels, it just wasn't part of the way he thought.
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And so this generation is taking on the challenge to work out complex character
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arcs for the women.
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So hopefully we'll get some people who will be up there with air win Arwin and
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collateral,
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so that we've got more female talking characters to talk about in future.
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So that's my little, uh,
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overview just prior to the series coming out,
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we will be dipping back into review the early episodes and then
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an overview of the end of the first se season.
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And I think really the thing that I want to stop with is what would
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you have done if you were given the,
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the task of writing this, it's such an enormous task.
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They're not going to please everybody.
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And I've been thinking about it ever since I heard this series was coming out,
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just thinking, well, what would I do? Uh,
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I think I probably panic <laugh> because of the expectations that are
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weighing on me, but it, uh, this sort little exercise of working out,
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what they're doing has actually been very revealing as to how creatives are
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thinking about this.
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And so fingers crossed that what they've actually put together has picked up
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the, the sort of the idea of making it relatable, finding good story arcs,
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um, bringing together the events, which are central to the second age,
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to get away from the feeling that this is a kind of game of
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Throne's light. Um, that would be horrible.
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Let's hope they've actually kept the spirit of talking,
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which I think centers on somebody with Hobbit values,
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not necessarily a Hobbit, but somebody who is earthed,
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who is appreciates nature, who is, who is a,
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a character where we can sort of settle down and see the events of the
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world with them. That's what I'm hoping.
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Cuz that seems to be really one of the huge reasons for the longevity
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of token's fantasy. Now I always end these,
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uh,
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podcasts with where in all the fantasy world is the best place to be something.
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This one's a bit of a challenge, um,
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because I've been trying to guess what the main themes are,
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but clearly one theme I think I can put my money on would be where in all the
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fantasy worlds is the best place to be a maker of
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rings. I don't think that is in, uh,
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the world of Lord of the rings because what happens to you is not,
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not very good. Uh,
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you get sort of sucked in by your creation or find you've put most of
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your power in it. So you becomes your Achilles hill, very bad idea,
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sour on you should have thought this through anyway. Um,
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so where would be a better place in all the fancy worlds to be a maker of rings
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and the other place where rings are made in the world of the inklings of course,
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is in the magician's nephew. Um,
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uncle Andrew makes some rings.
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He starts off by sending Guinea pigs off and it takes you to the wood between
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the worlds. So the, the ability to make those rings,
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that take you to a place where you can travel to other worlds,
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sounds like a really good place to be a ring maker.
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So that would be my pick if I was going to be without cuz uncle Andrew is
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selfish and evil, um, and unleashes the Empress J on, on,
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uh, London, through having sent the children to her world,
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leaving all that aside <laugh> and just doing the bit where you get to travel.
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That's what I'd like to be.
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I'd like to make rings and go to the wood between the worlds and have the
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ability to jump into the pools and visit other worlds and take somebody with me
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as well, because this isn't just for one person this ring. Anyway,
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so that is my thought on making rings of power. Thank you very much.
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