Sidecast - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Book 2 Chapter 4

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and today we have one of our sidecasts where we take an author's look through Lord of the Rings. We have reached chapter four in book two, which is called A Journey in the Dark. So we left our heroes at the last episode, having been defeated by the mountain Caradhras, and now they have a contrasting story through the dark, going through the minds of Moria. Now, this is the first point I want to make right at the beginning is how, from an author's point of view, I noticed that Tolkien is doing big contrasts in his journey from the gliding white snow to the dark, dark depths of Moria. I'd also want to mention it's one of the long chapters, again, not as long as the Council of Elrond, but when you look at how long it takes to read it out, it clocks in at one and a half hours. So it puts it amongst the longer chapters, and you'll see why when you realise how much it covers. I made it out to be in at least five parts. So you've started off with the discussion which they call a mini council, a council of what to do next. Then you reach the section with the encounter with the wolves, which didn't make it into the Lord of the Rings films, by the way. So if you haven't, if you're coming at this from the perspective of the films, there's some new material here for you to enjoy. Then there's a third section where they're looking for the gates of Moria, and then there's a passage underground in the sort of more of the mining part of Moria as opposed to the living areas, and then the final section is in the area where the dwarves used to live, in the Great Hall and by the tomb of Barlin, anyway. So that's a lot to cover. So let's get going. First of all, this mini council. 02:12 I think it's interesting to think about what Tolkien regards as a way of making decisions. He isn't really an autocrat or even that interested in kings. In some ways he describes himself as a sort of anarchist in his own letters, by which he means not lobbing bombs at people in the old anarchist sense, but he believes in small communities where the decisions are taken amongst those who have a stake in the outcome. So this is what you see here. So, rather than sort of many layers of separation between the power brokers and the people who are affected by the decisions. It happens in a council, at a local level, so it's not the oldest who gets the final word, it's not the most senior, so it's not Gandalf, it's not Aragorn, but it's not the most senior. So it's not Gandalf, it's not Aragorn, but it's Frodo, the most involved, the one who's carrying the ring, who gets the final say on their direction. 03:12 And another sort of side note from a author's point of view is such counsel is an excellent opportunity to have a recap, naturally, as to what the stakes are, where they're going and where they've been, and also the character dynamics. So you can do a lot of things in this one scene. You'll notice that Boromir is pulling away more and more as this section goes along, because he is the most reluctant of the fellowship at this point. It's also a way of ratcheting up tension. You thought the mountain was bad. This is going to be worse. And to add to that feeling of terror about going under the mountain to Moria, there's a line here saying that even to the hobbits it was a legend of vague fear. I wonder how they got that legend. Did they hear stories in Rivendell or maybe Bilbo, because obviously Bilbo is very well connected to the dwarves, but they have heard that it's a bad place to go. 04:20 And then not only the vague level of fear about this place they're heading, aragorn has a separate warning for Gandalf which is foreshadowing what's about to happen. We can feel on the first reading, if we're innocent of knowledge, hard to imagine that when you've read it so many times. But you're beginning to think hang on a minute. Gandalf is the most exposed because Aragorn is warning us. Aragorn says the road may lead to Moria, but how can we hope that it will lead us through? And then he goes on to say if you pass the doors of Moria, beware. So Gandalf is most at risk, according to Aragorn, who has almost the same amount of knowledge about the threats as Gandalf. 05:03 So Gandalf, also here, is telling us why we can't take the other routes. So if you're looking at the maps you might be thinking oh, there's all this land over here. Why don't they just go round the problem rather than through it? So it cuts off the kind of author. But the author is here cutting off the reader's questions. That's what I meant to say, and Boromir is useful here as a way of exposing those questions but also exposing his separate agenda. There's also a pun here, thanks to Boromir. He says the name of Moria is black. The root of the word is to do with the dark pit or the black pit. It's a pun, not that people are laughing. 05:46 At this point we also get a connection made here in this overview of what's going on in the world from Gandalf back to the hobbit and the battle of the five armies, another of the points in the story where Tolkien has decided to connect the stories. Gandalf was already a connection, as was Bilbo, but as the Hobbit was written as a story that was sort of separate from this to begin with and was then folded into the Middle-earth story, this is one of the points where Tolkien is kind of making those connections. It's like fusing them together. Gimli, of course, is one of Gimli's best chapters from the point of view he's having the time of his life in a sense, because he wants to. He wants to go there and he offers timely support. 06:37 So it ends this section with Boromir intervening by when he has failed to persuade Gandalf of his own wisdom. He kind of appeals to everybody else. He goes to Legolas, he goes to the hobbits who all you know they don't want to rush into danger either, so he doesn't. He gets some support from them for his reluctance. But Frodo is the one who realizes well, we can't go back at this point, he has to go on. It's this realizes well, we can't go back at this point, he has to go on. It's this, I suppose, the steel in the soul of frodo, is one of his defining characteristics. It's why he chooses to go on alone later, at the end of this particular volume. And he but he also isn't a what's the word, he isn't a foolish, reckless hero, he is a very considered one and he actually wants delay because he knows that it's difficult to take the decision. It's similar to the delay that you see in the breaking of the fellowship. He knows he has to make the decision, but he just wants a bit more time. 07:39 The outcome of this is different from when Boromir intervenes at the end of the book and forces him to go off alone. Here we've got something quite different that forces them to take action, and that change of pace is, of course, the wolves. Another thing, from an author's point of view, I wanted to mention is the number of line breaks in this chapter that aren't scene changes, they're almost um used for, like rests in music, um, there's either a pause for thought or a change in pace, and, and obviously music of creation is tolkien's thought about how the world became. So perhaps it's not unusual to find him using a similar technique, a pacing pause, in his own writing. And we get a definite change of pace here, and that is reflected in not only the speed of activity that takes over when they're preparing to defend against the wolves, but it's also in the language. Have a look at it. One particular point is Boromir and Aragorn topping each other in rhyming sayings, and Aragorn is the one who tops Boromir's saying, so it's like a battle in a sense of old sayings. That happens and that adds to the rhythm and the change in pace. 09:11 I think here that Pippin might be the person we most sympathize with, because he's just plain terrified. And then we get Sam giving his hobbit sense, which will carry him all the way through the novel, and also a dip into his more colloquial language. Perhaps the more colloquial language comes out when he is least guarded, because he says we aren't etten yet. Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, our wager, it isn't a wolf's belly and that little conversation is the first of a bookend. Watch out for when it comes back again. 09:50 So we then get some echoes here and some interesting developments of how the fellowship works. The first echo I think for those of you who have read the Hobbit is that this feels a bit like the attack of the wolves or the wogs after they escape from under the mountains. This is before going under the mountains, but we know, if we're Hobbit readers, that wolves and orcs and mountains are all come in a bundle. You know three for two, you get them all together. And it starts here with a sort of like a prelim, an initial threat, where Legolas and Gandalf team up to drive off the first of the watching wolves. It's like the first salvo, a probe of how their defenses are, and then we get the main attack and we get a beautiful paragraph of the fellowship in action in the middle of let me just turn to the page, middle of page 312 in my volume, and it's a great way of just summing up a battle scene. 11:04 Now, skirmish's battles are incredibly difficult to write because they are confusing and a lot is happening. So Gandalf, keep calling him Gandalf. That's a Freudian slip, isn't it? Tolkien shows us how to do this by, first of all, he chooses his point of view on this scene. So he's chosen Frodo. So Frodo saw many grey shapes spring over the ring of stones. More and more followed, and you can sort of understand that it's still Frodo watching what's happening. And we get a sort of lineup of who fights and how. Through the throat of one huge leader, aragorn passed his sword with a thrust. With a great sweep, boromir hewed the head off another. Beside them, gimli stood with his stout legs apart, wielding his dwarf axe. The bow of Legolas was singing. So it's a sort of roll call through the weapons and the different fighting stances of the main action figures in the fellowship. 12:07 And then, of course, capping it all, beginning of the next paragraph, in the wavering firelight, gandalf seems suddenly to grow. He rose up a great, menacing shape like the monument to some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. And he does one of the rare times when he does a spell with a blast of light that sort of finishes off the attack, um, and legolas releases one last um arrow, it's, it's. It's almost like a sort of fighting ballet, and of course fight scenes do have to be choreographed. So perhaps that's not such a foolish thing to say. 12:47 And there's an echo here of maybe we're seeing close to what was only seen from a distance when we saw, when the Aragorn and Frodo saw the flickering fire on the top of Weathertop. When we know that Gandalf fought the Black Riders, now we see the kind of spell he might have done then. And then we get the other bookend, which finishes this section of the wolves. Uh, and sam says to pippin again. So it's almost like that conversation has now come to this point. Uh, saying you know that obviously gandalf wasn't destined to be my wolves, and he says that was an eye-opener. And no mistake. Now this line was moved in the Peter Jackson films because they didn't do this scene. So I'm going to put it back in its right context. 13:35 And Sam is still keeping us with our feet on the ground, so that that frantic pace has a wonderful contrast to the coming of dawn. It's like an uncanny waking moment where there's no sign of the enemy except one damaged arrow. So we've had Gandalf doing magic, but there seems to be some sort of magic or certainly skilled operators on the other side who are hiding what they're doing. And there's a discussion here about some power. Um is working against them. They talk about it as the change in the weather. I don't know, um, if it's ever cleared up, if this power is a sort of chthonic power, a sort of native power of the Misty Mountains, like Caladras was, or if it's Sauron reaching out from Mordor or Dol Guldur, which is a bit closer, or if it's Sauron man. Again, the Jackson film suggests it's Sour man. So as we read through this, we'll see if it's actually cleared up. But I don't think it is. We'll see Anyway. 14:54 So we then go into the section about trying to find the gates. I think what's interesting here is making sure that your heroes aren't all powerful. One of the problems with superman as a superhero is, unless there's kryptonite around, he's too powerful. So gandalf is no superman, he doesn't remember or he's not clear, and aragorn doesn't know the this land because he's not been there very often, if at all. And this period of sort of foggy doubt as they try and find the trace through what they know used to be there and they know the sign should be there, but they can't find them. Where is the River Suriname? Where's it gone? 15:41 Reminded me very strongly of the section at a different tone, of course, at the beginning of prince caspian, when the children are go back. For them it's a year later and they go back and land at care paravel. But for the people at care paravel, over a thousand years have passed and the landmass has changed. The castle has fallen down and they don't recognize it. Uh, the course of the river has changed, making care paraval into a sort of island, and this is one of those places where perhaps this was in the back of lewis's mind, because he obviously heard these, but it might also just be a shared interest in what happens to places as time passes, the sense of history in a fantasy land to give it more reality. So I think the fact that it's not like a carbon copy of how it used to be under the days of keller brimbo just makes us really believe in it more. 16:41 And it's gimli who finds the sign of the river, to which Gandalf, of course, says indeed, things have changed when they see that the falls by step falls are no longer running but are just a trickle. And that becomes more ominous in a moment's time because they next see the reason for it, which is a big dam that's been put across and the spread of what is introduced right off from the start as ominous water. This is where we will discover that the Watcher of the Deep is living. But we already know it is somehow repellent and dangerous. Now we get the poor old Bill. Dangerous, now we get the poor old bill. 17:31 So gandalf has put off telling sam that the upshot of their decision is that they can't take bill with them. And um, I guess, when you actually think about he isn't being cruel, because if you think about it, there hasn't really been time. They only just decided to take this path. They were going to go over the mountain and bill could have come. So it's not like he already knew, but he did foresee that it might be a necessity. And um, and obviously that gives sam this big dilemma that he is his faithful companion. So I suppose bill is to him as he is to frodo, in a way, each in service to each other. 18:07 Anyway, so the moment of saying goodbye to Bill is held off but is hovering, and as they approach where the gates are going to be, I think there's a wonderful touch here. As they cross one of the inlets to the ominous water, frodo shuddered with disgust at the touch of the dark, unclean water on his feet. So you get a sense of a. It doesn't really explain in what way unclean maybe an outfall of workings from the mines or something like that if it's definitely not something you would choose to drink. But there's a reminder here of whose head we're inside experiencing this, which is frodo's, and also get a reminder that the hobbits are doing this in bare feet and that gives the reminder of their vulnerability to the landscape. Feet are mentioned a lot in this chapter, as you, so this is one of the first of the little mentions of feet. So, going back to the musical analogy I made earlier, there is a wonderful paragraph, that on the top of page 316, if you've got the same pagination in yours, which just reminds you of how Tolkien controls his prose, I can do no better than just read it to you. 19:32 As Sam, the last of the company, led Bill up to the dry ground on the far side, there came a soft sound, a swish, followed by a plop, as if a fish had disturbed the still surface of the water. Turning quickly, they saw ripples, black edged with shadow. In the waning light, great rings were winding outwards from a point far off in the lake. There was a bubbling noise and then silence, the dusk deepened and the last gleams of the sunset were veiled in cloud. It's not the most famous passage in Lord of the Rings, obviously, but I love the way it is crafted. That's what I'm pointing out, really that you get a hint, the rings bubbles and then it dies away. So, just as in the battle earlier, you got the first shot, the first probe. This is like in the oncoming Watcher of the Deeps, a similar thing. You get the hint and the sort of probing rings coming out. We all know something's going to happen. We've been shown in the Chekhovian terms. We've been shown the gun in the first act. We know it's going to go off in the last. So we now reach the doors. 20:48 So in our section we're coming to the end of this one and there's a number of things to mention about this before we talk about the actual illustration in the book, one of the rare times we actually have some engraving in the book. There are two in this chapter, by the way. I can't think of another which has as many, um, but we also get holly mentioned. So we know the place is called hollin and holly trees are what is guarding its border. That all seems very appropriate. But holly is a prickly evergreen, so it's a tough kind of a very fitting kind of shrub, an old, old shrub, but also it stands out as being the only natural thing that's mentioned. So it's stark. It's like when you see a lone tree on a rocky hillside it really stands out as a survivor. So the holly trees sort of stick in our mind from that point of view. 21:44 And after the council at the beginning we get a sort of unreluctant council here where poor old Gandalf has to defend himself and he gives a plea here which I think is quite poignant, he says, because they're trying to work out whose fault it is that the gates were closed and the relationships between the elves and the dwarves broke down. Gandalf says, look, we haven't got time for that, but I beg you, to Legolas and Gimli at least to be friends and to help me. I need you both. And of course the wonderful thing is this admonition here, possibly because he does go on to seemingly die is what happens that Legolas and Gimli after this point and they get through Moria do become friends. And I wonder if it stems from that sort of appeal from Gandalf to pull together. 22:39 Then we get another Sam moment and poor old Bill and I love the way Sam kind of is still refusing. He just doesn't want to, he's not having this. Sam says I won't have it and that's flat, that's colloquial, but I couldn't really think where that was from. I should look up the origin of the phrase. I think it normally has, you know, the sense of slapping your hand on the table. You know that's it. End of argument. And he has to choose between Bill and his master. So before we report Gandalf to you know the RSPCA or something, he gives Bill a blessing, what feels like a blessing. Gandalf has this spiritual quality to him, of course, and he tells Sam I'm not sure if this is comforting, but it's true he will have quite as much a chance of escaping walls and getting home as we have. So kind of comforting, of comforting, isn't it? It's very Gandalf, because you could read that either way and we have Sam in tears Sam is quite close to tears often. He has this ability to access a more straightforward, honest sense of emotion, which I think is wonderful about him. 24:02 Then we get the wonderful image, which of course everybody's copy has got, of the doors of moria and you get in there. Explanation that, or gandalf reads it out I navi made them killer. Celebrimbor of Holland drew these signs. If you are trying to connect this section to the Rings of Power, narvi appears as a character, not a major character, but he appears as a character in the second season of Rings of Power and of course Celebrimbor is one of the main characters. So this is the fruit of their labor. I think actually it was in the background at some points during the program. They didn't really lean into this very much. It would have been more interesting to see this section, but anyway they didn't. 24:51 And then Gandalf makes an error. Told you he's not Superman. He says after reading that out, but they do not say anything of importance to us. Yes, they do, gandalf, the answer is written there. But hang on, he's got to go about it the hard way. 25:08 And if you remember, I said that this was the uh section where boromir is pulling away and the tension really comes to a head here because Boromir is doing the I told you so thing, which is nothing more annoying for anyone trying to lead an expedition than that, and Gandalf snaps back at him. You may ask what is the use of my deeds when they are proved useless. You know, because Gandalf isn't there when Boromir actually breaks from the fellowship. So he's already fracturing from Gandalf at this point. And if Boromir wasn't enough to annoy Gandalf, he's also got Pippin, who will not be quelled, which is another wonderful quality of Pippin. Pippin says what are you going to do then? And you get the inimitable Gandalf answer Knock on the doors of your head. Peregrine Took said Gandalf. But if that does not shatter them and I'm allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words. So, poor old Gandalf. But it's a way of showing the different tensions within a group. So if you're going to have a council structure where nobody is an absolute lead, you do get more chance for all the individual members to have their own little you know moments of pulling in opposite directions. 26:32 There's an escape room. Feel about this. I know it didn't exist at time of talking, but you know, finding the right answer from the clues reminds me of my experiences of being in escape rooms. And then, of course, whilst someone's trying to solve the clue, everyone else is sort of looking around. And that's what boromir doing. He casts the stone and this really freaks frodo out, because frodo has and you can tell this from the ominous water comment he has this feel of doom and danger from the pool and he says, frankly, I am afraid of the pool. 27:11 In the film version, poor old Pippin gets the blame for this. Pippin and Merry, it's Boromir. So let's you know, put this right. Then we get the relief when from all this tension, when Gandalf really enjoys that he's solved the puzzle and the answer, of course, is melon, not spelt, like the fruit double L, and you can see he's really enjoying finally cracking it. I think he enjoys the cleverness of the well, he enjoys seeing how much he doesn't know, and that's one of his wonderful humble qualities. He was being too clever, so it's like it's his children, you, you solve these things, not or childish minds or younger minds like the hobbits, not as age-old myers, and he's able to, of course, open the doors. There's a sudden. 28:04 It's interesting here that Tolkien chooses because that's the kind of high point you could have just gone straight, walking into the mines, like in a computer game, you go from one to another, but no, tolkien chooses here to give us lots of things happening all at once, to speed it along, push us on and he says lots of things happen at once. He warns us because he knows how difficult this is to write. We've got Frodo being seized, bill running off, sam half going after Bill and the monster throwing out more tentacles, and Sam is the one who frees Frodo. It isn't a Boromir Aragorn double act like in the film. Sam, who's always aware of both Bill and Frodo, sees the danger to them both and chooses Frodo. He always will choose Frodo and he cuts Frodo free. 29:04 It's less elaborate than it's portrayed in the film. This section they get out of it quite quickly and we get another of these line breaks. Remember the idea that they're built out musical notation. It's a pause to absorb the change of fortunes quite rapidly, so they've gone from. It's a pause to absorb the change of fortunes quite rapidly, so they've gone from it's just about solving a puzzle to actually there's a big monster here to fight who's now blocking the way back. He destroys the lovely trees which we had just been appreciating and stops the way back. And Gandalf has one of his beautiful phrases here when they're talking about who and what it was there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. And there's a dip into Gandalf's point of view here, where he worries that it was Frodo who was first targeted by the creature. 30:01 I think the sense of ominousness might be emanating from the ring in a way, because it draws the Watcher and of course draws danger, to Frodo. So now we're in the section where we go through the mining part of Moria and I'm afraid Boromir is still being the old moaning mini complaining that they have to go this way, and Gandalf tries to sort of bolster everyone's spirit with a sip of Mirafor and have a short break. This cordial, reminds me of the stories of St Bernard's dogs taking brandy up the mountains. Of the stories of St Bernard's dogs taking brandy up the mountains, we know Tolkien went to Switzerland on a walking holiday, or to the Alps. When he was a young man might have seen these dogs. Or perhaps when the Inklings went on walking holidays, which they used to do, they had their little flasks and it might be a little gesture to the idea of having a quick nip to keep you going. Or, more seriously, in the trenches. Perhaps anyway, he's aware of the bolstering factor of having a sort of spirit in this case it's the elven spirit to keep you going for what will turn out to be 40 miles. Think about how far 40 miles is in your context. For me it's from where I'm sitting to pretty much london. That is a long way. That always fascinates me, the geography of moria, just vast, vast, vast. 31:34 So we now have another recap of the fellowship in procession. So we've got Gandalf and Gimli at the front and we've got Grim and Silent at the back, boromir and no Aragorn Boromir, boromir's with the young hobbits and Frodo and Sam walking sort of towards the front and we're seeing Moria through Frodo's point of view. Again, note these change of head spaces. It's a very Tolkienian style. Having one person perceive it means you don't have to say it. So Frodo says oh, he's thinking he doesn't say. It was bewildering beyond hope of remembering. So it's a wonderful evocation of a huge maze of mine shafts. I don't know if you've ever been down a mine. I went down a coal mine in poland once upon a time, in wroclaw, and it was bewildering because of course you've got the layers and you can't see, you don't know how many layers there are, on what layer you're on. They're good maps and they don't have a map. And here it's interesting that I've said Boromir is the moaning mini of the group, aragorn is the encourager. 32:52 So when people are worrying, or hobbits are worrying about where they're going, he says do not be afraid. That's quite biblical. It's like the angel Gabriel saying to Mary it's got that feel. Do not be afraid. That's quite biblical. It's like the angel gabriel saying to mary it's got that feel. Do not be afraid. He is surer of finding the way home in a blind night than the cats of queen baruthiel. I think tolkien said that this cats of queen baruthiel when he wrote it was one of the times when he didn't actually know what the backstory was and had to think about it later. So that's the way sometimes Tolkien finds his world almost unnoticed, not in his own will, but emerges from him. 33:36 It's an experience you get as a writer where once you've set everything up, things can sort of spontaneously arise and you then have to work out what it really means. He does this with characters Famously Aragorn originally called Trotter. Glad they changed the name. He didn't plan to have that character. He just arrived in the in brie. And same with faramir who just walks out of the forest at one point. You see from the letters he's surprised by his own inventiveness, and this is a little glimpse of that experience of writing. So if you are a writer listening to this, have a think have you reached that point? Because that is when you're really going well on your craft is when things happen almost despite you. So one of the first. 34:22 There's a number of obstacles that they reach. Obviously, choosing passages is one of them, but one that always worried me the most was the seven-foot jump, which Pippin is worried about. Now, I was a terrible. I'm just not very athletic. That's what it comes down to, and I actually remember measuring out seven feet, thinking I couldn't jump that as a child, and Pippin feels the same way. So I'm with you, Pippin, I don't want to jump a seven foot chasm either. So two things here. It kind of indicates not taking Bill because he couldn't have managed that, and also sam has this recurrence of the thought that he hasn't got rote with him, which will become important in lorian not lorian. 35:10 There's an interesting section here which I didn't notice till reading it. This time a frodo reflects on the change in him. The fact that you can still find new things in Lord of the Rings no matter how many times you read it is one of the brilliances of this book. Anyway, he, he reflects how he can see in the dark as well as anyone. Perhaps, um, save perhaps Gandalf a, I didn't know. Gandalf could see one in the dark and I would have thought maybe the elves saw better, but they don't. And there is an association here with how the ring is changing him. 35:45 Never forget, this is about the ring. Don't leave the ring out of the picture for too long. That's what Tolkien's doing here. I'm not sure it's mentioned again. Let's keep an eye out for that as we go through, because Frodo doesn't seem, particularly when they're in the next set of caves, which is the ones of Shelob. Can't remember him, particularly seeing more than Sam. Anyway, let's keep an eye out for that, maybe in just one of those things that was dropped as a theme. 36:15 And he says about the ring. Ring, he felt the certainty of evil ahead and of evil following, but he said nothing. He gripped tighter on the hilt of his sword and went on doggedly. So that is kind of frodo, isn't it? Um, he knows, through the perception the ring has given him, he's got evil behind him, evil ahead of him, but all he can do is grip on the type, the hilt of his sword and carry on. Now there's a total, another. I'm full. I love this chapter, as you can probably tell. 36:46 But there's a wonderful passage at the bottom of page 325 about footsteps. I've said I mentioned feet already and this is how you do non another kind of sense than sight, you do it through sound. But also it shows you how acute everybody's senses are being deprived of sight. There was no sound but the sound of their own feet, the dull stump of Gimli's dwarf boots, the heavy tread of Boromir, the light step of Legolas, the soft, scarce herd patter of hobbit feet and in the rear, the slow, firm footfalls of Aragorn with his long stride and it doesn't mention Gandalf there, but I think Gandalf wears boots sums up the characters but also makes us point to listening, because the next thing is that he can hear something else. Frodo began to hear, or to imagine that he heard, something else, like the faint fall of soft, bare feet, gollum, folks, gollum is coming and it brings it closer and closer. So I love that passage. Brilliant piece of writing, but also reminding us of the characters you know, the, the dull thud of gimli, the heavy tread of boromir, and so on, um, but also gives you a way of planting the seed that Gollum is with them in a very subtle way. 38:18 Then the next little interlude in the obstacles of Moria is, of course, the three passageways which Gandalf needs to choose from. In the Jackson film they did this in an open area because I suppose that's easier to film, but in the book they go into a guard room, and this is where Pippin makes his error of dropping the stone. In the film version he pushes some sort of rather Monty Python-esque skeleton down a well. Here it's more subtle. He's just curious, and curiosity killed the cat, as we know. He just wants to know how deep the well is, so he drops a stone, and this is where you get another Gandalf Pippin double act. They are so good together, aren't they? Full of a toque? This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking party. Throw yourself in next time and then you will be no further nuisance. 39:18 So Pippin is in the doghouse and made to go and watch first. But it just shows you that how the qualities in the Lord of the Rings which I think bring us back and why I much prefer this to a sort of Game of Thrones world, for example is the compassion and the mercy of the characters. They're just gorgeous. And we've got Gandalf coming along and saying get into a corner and have a sleep, my lad, you want to sleep? I expect and I cannot sleep. So even though he's told Pippin off, he doesn't make him suffer. And there's this beautiful tableau, and this is from Pippin's point of view. So, remember, the Lord of the Rings is like a collection of everybody's all the hobbits memories. This is Pippin. 40:03 The last thing that Pippin saw as sleep took him was a dark glimpse of the old wizard huddled on the floor shielding a glowing chip in his gnarled hands between his knees. The flicker for a moment showed his sharp nose and the puff of smoke. Beautiful, last quiet image really, of gandalf that we get before. Um, well, the balrog in a second, a second in a few hours time. So when they wake up the next morning there is a feeling of what is the problem. You know, it's the next section, it's the lived in areas. They make the right decision, they get to the habitable areas, the bigger halls, and the pace is quickening and gandalf makes some light and we get a quick glimpse of black pillars. I wonder if there's something like obsidian or basalt, the idea of that sort of um volcanic glass that will reflect light back. 41:02 That's what I imagine it my head anyway. And gandalf says he totally jinxes everything. Tolkien puts this on purpose because you remember, we've had all these warnings. Gandalf, gandalfalf's in danger, and Gandalf says things have gone well so far and the greater part of the dark road is over. Oh no, as soon as someone says that you know that actually no, it's not. But before we get the, the conflict in the next chapter, we've got some more dwarven moments. 41:37 Gimli has a very fine moment here chanting his poem, which is connected in its sort of meter to the dwarven poems in the hobbit. But I love this because it goes through recalling the, the lights and the Moria, khazad-dum at its height, and then it ends with this sort of sad coda. Really, the world is grey, the mountains old, the forge's fire is ashen, cold, no harp is rung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's hall, the shadow lies upon his tomb in moria, in kazadum, and that sets us up for the tomb we're about to visit. It's not durin's tomb, of course, but that we've been imaginatively transported to see kazadum at its height. And now we're back to how it is now, which is a place of darkness, and it's nice that Sam here is the one who really appreciates the poetry, he even starts repeating it so clearly. He's going to remember this poem and be able to recall it. 42:50 We have a moment when the council the little gathering of the fellowship in there, one of their little councils is discussing what's going on and there's a description here of mithril it's the second time in this chapter because it was mentioned as being part of the ingredient that made the glowing doorway and they come to discuss the mithril coat, the corslet. This is a way of planting back in our minds that Frodo is wearing it because he's not referred to it for a while and we're privy to Frodo's secret knowledge about this. The others are talking about it and Gandalf sort of says I don't know if Bilbo ever realized how much it was worth. And Frodo is not at all interested in its value. He says in his own mind he thinks Bilbo was. You know quite well what he was doing. But neither of them valued it for what it was worth. They valued it for what it could do, and that is protect the life of someone they love, and that, surely, is the importance of treasure. It's not to sit on a hoard, it's to use, and to use for good, and that's why the ring doesn't have a hold over him, because he doesn't want it for its value of getting him power at all. So he's less temptable than many another character, but the thought of the Mithril Coat poignantly sends him back to Bilbo and Rivendell and then back home. 44:28 This whole section, in fact the whole Moria section, is absolutely brilliantly done in the BBC audio version of this. If you haven't listened to that episode, go back. The footsteps, frodo's thoughts, gimli's poem, excellent, it's the best version of Moria. And of course, because being radio you don't have the visuals you know, jumping over rocking stairways and all the rest of it, so you can just concentrate on the atmosphere as tolkien evokes it. We also get. We've had footsteps. We also get a little hint of two points of light that frodo glimpses by one doorway. Gollum is getting closer by inches. Tolkien's really saving up his entry. 45:20 Now the next section. Boromir is saying let's go over there. That's the obvious way out, and it's by chance they don't walk into the trap which that choice would have led them. They instead go on Gandalf's hesitancy, they go to Barlin's tomb and that gives us the second inscription in the chapter in the Dwarf Runes which before we hear how Balin came to die. We know that he is dead. The hope to meet the dwarves in moria is not going to come to pass, which they probably were guessing anyway. But also the fact that he's dead suggests that there are enemies there. So all these things are planting seeds in our heads that this is a place occupied by the enemy. But but we have a moment. 46:20 And where Tolkien chooses to end his long chapter is to lament one of his favourite dwarves, obviously a main character amongst the dwarves in the Hobbit. If you're thinking about which one was he? He's the one with the white beard. And Frodo says, speaking almost for Bilbo, he is dead. Then, said Fro, frodo, I feared it was so. And Gimli casts his hood over his face. So, in terms of our musical analogy, this ends with elegy. This chapter rather than action, and action comes in the fun. 46:55 - Speaker 2 (None) Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe, wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide. [MUSIC PLAYING]