Sidecast - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Book 3 Chapter 2

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and this is one of our Sidecasts as we take an author's look at the Lord of the Rings and we have reached chapter two in the Two Towers which, because Tolkien divided the story up into six books it's actually chapter two of book three, if you're following me. Okay, so we had a very short chapter, one compared to other chapters in Tolkien, so we're now back to his longer chapters. We cover a lot of ground, literally and figuratively, in this chapter and I was thinking about how to describe this chapter and I think there are six points I want to really draw out of this chapter. First of all is the structure. It falls into three parts roughly. We have the chase of Aragorn, legolas and Gimli as they run across the plains of Rohan on the trail of Pippin and Merry and the orcs. We also have a real insight into how Tolkien wrote this story. The image I have in mind is if you look at a beautiful tapestry on one side it seems effortless, but if you turn it over you can see how all the threads interconnect and we'll be thinking about some of those interconnections. Another thing I wanted to look at was just clarifying some terms which always puzzled me, and this time I bothered to go and look them up properly and it's really helped. So I will pass that on to you. Then there's a highlight on a character which I think Legolas really comes to the fore in this chapter in a way that he hasn't elsewhere. Perhaps we saw most about Gimli in Moria and I think we get a lot of insights into Legolas in this chapter and we get introduction to a new culture which is Rohan. And finally, the last point is we get a little glimpse to one of our villains, saruman, in a mysterious and not entirely explained way which we'll reach at the end. 02:22 So let's turn to the chapter. The first thing you'll notice is the extraordinary very first sentence Two words dusk, deepened. Now we have found that very often in descriptions Tolkien is quite poetic and he loves alliteration and that really caught me up short. I can't think of another chapter at the beginning of two words. I'll look out for it. But it's very punchy and just. I love it. Very simple, but also it harps on this sort of alliterative use of language which we'll see elsewhere. And that does fit with the culture they're going to, because the Rohan culture is the closest we get to a sort of old English Anglo-Saxon culture. Anyway, I thought I'd just enjoy the very first couple of words. 03:18 We have the first in this chapter of their decision trees of which direction to take. There are a couple of moments where they have to stop and think which way they're going to go. This is because they're starting off in a rocky land and the trails are not entirely clear to see. And what comes before here is the harmony of the three. Even though they may be disagreeing about ways to go, disagreeing about ways to go, they have a way of working together, comrades, in this together. It doesn't have the comic tone of the film, so it's quite good to do a reset here if you've got the films foremost in your mind, because Gimli is played for comic effect here he has more seriousness to him and that's seen in the way that they behave. So off they go on following the track of the orcs and there's some wonderful moments in this journey they take, and I just wanted to read the drama of the sunrise. They do a sunrise in the film as well, which is one of Legolas' lines. Actually, the second of these sunrises, it's not this one, we'll come to that in a minute, but just think how beautiful this is as a piece of writing. So they're just on the trail. 04:48 Turning back, they saw across the river, the far hills. Kindled day leaped into the sky. The red rim of the sun rose over the shoulders of the dark land before them. In the west, the world lay still formless and gray, but even as they looked, the shadows of night melted. The colors of the waking earth returned. Green flowed over the wide meads of Rohan, the white mist shimmered in the water veils, and far off to the left, thirty leagues or more blue and purple, stood the white mountains rising into peaks of jet, tipped with glimmering snows, flushed with the rose of morning. Wonderful, painterly, but also dynamic. It feels almost like the creation of the world, the colour coming into it, and that's one of the qualities that Middle Earth has. It feels fresh and newly minted, and this sunrise really captures that. Plus, it's a very useful way of laying out the terrain. 05:41 There are several moments in this long chase sequence where they stop and look from high ground and see what lays ahead. Most readers will then flip to the maps and have a look exactly where they are. But you know, you feel grounded and that's part of the illusion of the reality of Middle Earth. But when I was reading this, the first thing that came to my mind is what exactly is a league? I've come across it in fairy tales and I've heard it so many times and I thought, well, let's find out this time exactly how far that is. So I hope everybody else, if you don't already know, will enjoy finding this out. 06:26 A league is roughly three miles on land and three nautical miles, which is slightly further at sea. But another way of thinking about it, it's the distance a normal person could walk in an hour. So no doubt these three could walk faster than that. But if you think how far you can walk in an hour, that is a league. So when we hear that the White Mountains are 30 leagues or more on, it's 30 times three, so they're about 90 miles away. So bear those facts in mind because it helps to translate into our terms as we're finding out exactly how much, how far, they've gone. Of course, a league is a very helpful sort of term because it is archaic, slightly unfamiliar. It helps not take us out of the moment. You know, it'd be hard to think of Middle Earth in kilometers, for example. It would just feel too Napoleonic or something. So the league is a useful measure. 07:34 There's also a sense here from the chase that we get here, we get a sense of the emotional pull in another direction for Aragorn, which is the bigger theme of who he is. So in a way, this chasing after Merry and Pippin is a side mission or that's how he sees it, though of course it is integral to the fate smiling upon their future. But he has a pull to Gondor, his promise to Boromir and his own sense of his destiny. And this sense, of this pull is expressed, as we are talking Tolkien here, in a song. I think we're to understand that this is a song he already knows rather than composing on the spot, not quite like the Boromir song earlier. The thing to notice about this song is it harps on the emblems of Gondor again and again. This keeps coming up. It comes up in dreams, it comes up on flags, it comes up in courtyards so that we establish very firmly the identity of Gondor. And it's little touches like that the white tree, the wing crown and so on which helped build the place even before we've gone there. So we get to hear the emblems. 08:54 One of the things about this chapter which is a bit similar to how book four starts, with Frodo and Sam walking on this Emynwil stony ground is it took me a while to actually grasp the geography. It is incredibly carefully described but still it took me a while and a few readings to visualize exactly what they're doing. I found it helpful to imagine a place. I've actually walked in and transpose it so that I could think of these rocky ledges and these shelves and what have you. Tolkien clearly knows exactly what he's talking about, but it does take a. 09:34 You can't speed read this. You have to actually sit and think about it, which is no bad thing. I mentioned we have a couple of moments where they stop and think. So we've got this high point, but we've got an interesting set of dimensions here, because we have looking up to see the eagle, so we've got the height, and we're looking across to see far in the distance, 12 leagues away, 12 times 3, 36 miles, roughly a great company on foot which we understand at this point to be the orcs speeding away. So they've got a big head start and we have a link to another thing which I said about. We get to see more about Legolas in this particular chapter than we have to date. We get the hint here that he has keen eyes. But don't forget this. Eagle is also a link to Gandalf. So flipping over the tapestry we're seeing the threads that connect from one thing to another, all seamlessly woven into the front pattern when I was reading it this time, and they come to the describe the trail left by the orcs. 10:41 What I was fascinated by was the things orcs left behind. We don't really see much of orc culture. It's something that the um rings of power have tried to do. Just one of the interesting things I think they've actually tried to do and to humanize in a way orcs by having a father and mother and child orc for, for example. But here we get to understand the kind of people orcs are. As a band They've dropped food bags, rinds and crusts of hard grey bread, a torn black cloak, a heavy iron-nailed shoe broken on the stones. These are all very deliberately chosen details that set forward this idea of their food is rubbish, horrible food, iron, black cloaks, iron nailed so he's already setting the sort of idea of the artifacts of their culture. If you excavated an oak holding, you would find these kind of things, no fine bits of gold or filigree or shields or swords or that kind of thing. They are sort of portrayed by what they leave behind as well as the fact they've trashed the places they stop in, and that's a fascinating detail. So if you think about other cultures where we find what they've left behind, there are quite a few of them. For example, the Barrow Whites are living in burial mounds and the fine jewels and the swords and so on of the Northern Kingdom tell you what kind of culture that was. Here we've got a little glimpse of the sort of archaeologically minded Tolkien here. It's a great detail. 12:30 So we get down off this stony land and we reach the green of Rohan and there's a nice description here of it feeling like the beginning of spring. Legolas actually finds it better than sleep. Ah, the green smell. He says it is much better than sleep. Let us run. And when we think about the time period in this book, we are actually moving out of the winter phase of this book into the early spring, the sort of pre-spring, the change of the seasons, and it reminds us, of course, that we're heading to the 25th of March, so not that far into spring, for where this story finishes. So we're getting a bit of compaction of time. Now Things are speeding up. No more long pauses where we're in Lorien or places like that. 13:17 And here we get a picture of them. They went in single file, running like hounds on a strong scent. So that's the three hunters, aragorn, gimli and Legolas, running after on the trail. This is one bit in the film which I thought was done very well. Didn't think the place they chose was exactly correct. There were English landscapes that fit this one better. New Zealand is lovely, but Downs aren't quite like that. But I did like the way it was filmed, with them running in this single file. So you know well done Peter Jackson on that front. 13:59 So when you're splitting up your story, how do you connect the different threads? This is back to my other side of the tapestry. I think it's absolutely fascinating the way this chapter is written. I'd really love to know in what order it was written and how many changes Tolkien made. So if he was just simply writing chapter by chapter, he was planning out ahead to what Pippin was going to do, because it is very carefully crafted. In these days of word processes you just go back and change everything. Tolkien didn't have that, so it'd be fascinating to find out how methodical he was. Or did he make details up and then think, ah yes, Pippin can do that. It'd be lovely to find out. There's probably a scholar out there who does know. I will be looking out for that kind of detail when I'm reading secondary material about this book. 14:51 But we get the first of these connections which Pippin has fled the party of orcs. We find out in the next chapter. It's Pippin, so we see his small footprints. He does it on purpose, because he drops his brooch, hoping someone is following, though he's not sure anyone is. It's where hope prevails over despair. And you get that lovely line not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall Again, we've got some alliteration there. Idly leaves Lorien. You see the poetic side of Tolkien coming out and we also have suspense here because we don't know what's happened to Pippin. So when he ran out, did he then get horribly punished for that, or was only one hobbit escaped at that point? So what's happened to the other one? Tolkien is posing us questions which will keep us reading to find the answer. 15:50 I mentioned that I feel this chapter brings Legolas more to the fore. We have had a few things said by him in the Fellowship of the Ring Not that much. He's the most silent of the characters. But we do get here a sense that he is emotionally attached to the hobbits, which is rare because when you think about it he doesn't tend to talk about his emotions very much. He says come on, let us go. The thought of those merry young folk driven like cattle burns my heart. So yeah, he does like the hobbits Newsflash and I think it's partly because when you've got a company of nine people you're juggling lots of characters, so inevitably some get less time saying things. 16:36 And now we've got an opportunity here for Legolas to come forward because he's one of three and you'll see there's much more we learn about him. So they cover 12 leagues that day. So remember the conversion. That's 36 miles. The service I've ever walked in a day is 20 miles on the Brecon Beacons. I'm not an elf, so 36 miles seems to me to be doable, but a long way. And they come to another decision point, because they have to work out if they carry on tracking at night and in a way Pippin here has made the decision for them because they've discovered that there will be traces and signs that they have to look out for. So they err. On the side of caution, though Aragorn does say you give the choice to an ill chooser, he still feels as though he is the one who has caused the various disasters to happen or he hasn't made the right decisions. As he's gone along, though, it does turn out to be, thanks to the presiding fate of this world, the right choices. 17:43 Another thread here Look out how Gimli mentions Frodo and the glass. It's done as a. I wish we had the glass to help us see, but it is a reminder of the other characters and the more important quest that they are supporting. That's happening. Looking at it, as an author, you're thinking don't forget what the story is really about when the characters aren't here. Refer to them in an actual way, just to keep it ticking away in our minds that we need to know what's happening to Frodo and to Sam. 18:18 So they do sleep briefly, and when they wake in the dawn, I'm afraid there is an annoying side to Legolas, isn't there, which is the I told you so side. So yeah, I mean, none of us are perfect, but when they wake up the next morning, legolas is standing gazing northwards into the darkness, thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night. They are far, far away, he said sadly. Turning to Aragorn, I know in my heart that they have not rested this night. Only an eagle could overtake them. Now he was the one who wanted to keep going. So it's not quite, I told you so, but I think it's implied. And then there's a hint here of the last point I wanted to mention about the presence of Saruman, and it's expressed like this there is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us, a weariness that is in the heart more than the limb. So this is Aragorn expressing how difficult he's finding this tracking job. 19:29 Legolas agrees that that's what's going on, but we do get a sense of a malign magic, a presence, a force, however you like to express that, in the land which prepares the way for the much more developed form of this that we will see eventually in Edoras and what's happened to Theoden. So this second dawn is the one where we get a red dawn. Actually, it's the third dawn. Sorry, it's the third day where they get a red dawn and there's a mood change here. So we've had the three days of the chase and on the third day Legolas wakes them up with a awake awake, it is a red dawn. 20:13 He doesn't say that line about blood has been spilt this night or anything like that. That's an addition in the film. He says instead strange things await us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know, but we are called. Wait us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know, but we are called. So we had one sense of a malign presence forcing them back, slowing them down. But Legolas is saying there is another force. Is this a moment where Gandalf's coming into the area? Is there a hint here that a different force is entering the picture? Could be that, but certainly there is a sense of not exactly optimism, but energy, I think, is the best way of putting this. 20:55 So on they run. There's a description here of the three of them running, or in fact this isn't the first of the descriptions, but this particular one it's on page 31 in my edition actually helps establish the different characteristics of the races. So I do want to underline that it isn't comic. The dwarves aren't put there for their laughter value. They were going slowly now and Gimli's back was bent Stone hard. Are the dwarves in labour or journey? 21:28 But this endless chase began to tell on him and all hope failed in his heart. So it's actually almost like a mental state as well as a physical state. Aragorn walked behind him, grim and silent, stooping now and again to scan some print or mark upon the ground. Only Legolas still stepped as likely as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed. But in the waybred of the elves he found all the sustenance that he needed and he could sleep if sleep it could be called by men resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world. So we get a sense of his other nature, his otherworldly nature and the idea that elves are always partly in some other place, some other world, and I think we've had hints of this. There was a discussion about time when they were on the great river that Legolas has with Frodo. But again we're getting the sense of Legolas as being more elf, not taking him for granted as a companion. We're seeing more of the elven side of Legolas and of course he's a long way away from any other elf characters as well, which makes him stand out. After having been Legolas being the one who's most disappointed that they've sort of lost the opportunity to catch up, he in this day is being the most positive. 22:57 He says Reed oft is found at the rising of the sun. Reed that's an old English word means wisdom. If you've heard of the old Anglo-Saxon king called Æthelred the Unready, it doesn't mean he didn't get ready for going to work on time. It meant that he was unwise, an ríðr. So ríðr means wisdom, so wisdom is often found at the rising of the sun. There is a word here that I thought might be helpful to gloss. So they've moved into an empty space. They're surprised they don't meet more farmers, herdsmen and so on. We find out the reason why that have Wold in their title, so it is again an old word and it means a high uncultivated tract of land. So more like a moor is in that kind of idea. So I thought that would help just to tell you what a Wold is and we get when they're standing up there looking ahead. 24:08 They get this moment that I certainly enjoy and I think many of you probably will do, which is when they see the riders of Rohan riding towards them. And Aragorn's shown that he has this skill of listening out for when he's tracking, which is an interesting skill. I think it's the first time we've seen this in use. Pretty sure it is, and it might be any time he does it but it probably works. In areas of large, uncultivated land like this probably works better as a skill. But anyway, he says many eyes, many riders, sorry, many riders on swift steeds coming towards us. And then Legolas goes yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, there are 105. Yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall and wow, and that makes Aragorn smile, keen are the eyes of the elves, he said. And then Legolas has this wonderful dismissive line. He says well, you know, it's only five leagues distance, 15 miles to you and me. A lovely little bit of humor. But also we I think we all enjoy seeing Legolas flex his elvenness. 25:24 They take the decision to sit down and and this gives them a chance to have a brief discussion about who is coming towards them. So one of the things you want to do as a writer is not spend too much giving information in great slabs. So you can do it in discussions like this. It's much easier. 25:47 We have heard of this culture before If we cast our mind back to the Council of Elrond. It was one of the details in that Gandalf was telling his story, so we've had a bit of an introduction. But here we get a potted history like a couple of lines about their history. He calls them true-hearted and bold and obviously their culture is the horse culture. They have songs rather than books Again, this all sort of chimes with the sort of Anglo-Saxon world really. 26:21 And he calls them children of men ie they're from younger days. This reminds me a bit of the description of Arthur ie, they're from younger days. This reminds me a bit of the description of Arthur's court in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where the court is described as childlike Interesting adjective. But I think it is trying to sense that the idea here is that they are people from an earlier time, the beginnings of culture. He mentions that they are akin to the Bardings, that's the people around sort of Lake Town, that area, and Björnings Bjorn, the shape changer in the woods. So they come from the north, that's where they've come from, and they also refer here to the rumor that was repeated. I think it's at the council of elrond that they send horses in tribute to mordor and this is one of those questions that's going to be aired in this chapter. And argon stands with boromir by rejecting the rumour, and we soon learn that he actually has deep knowledge, having ridden with the riders earlier on in his life. 27:35 We get the wonderful arrival of the riders of Rohan. Note here that Tolkien is so much thinking about the horses in association with Rohan that the people are described pretty much like horses. The men that rode them matched them well, matched the horses tall and long-limbed, their hair flaxen, pale, flowed under the light helms and streamed in long braids behind them. Their faces were stern and keen. So they have manes too. It's just a bit of a fun description. I love the drama of this moment where the three are hidden by their cloaks and they're not spotted until they stand up. And I think when you think of the film version, they pretty much took the stage directions from the book and transpose them immediately into the film. So I can't help. As much as I try and get rid of thinking about the film, I can't help but think of the choreography of the horses, sort of turning round and spinning in a circle and ending up with the spears pointing at the interlopers. It was well done by the stunt riders, um, but Tolkien got there first. So they're honoring Tolkien. 28:54 So here we meet our man, eamon, and they're citing each other up. Eamon shows that he has good judgment because he doesn't immediately run them through with his fear. He doesn't treat them like he's just treated the orcs. They have a conversation. Golden Wood is a sorceress who traps people, few, escape her nets, they say. And this of course sets Gimli off as a red rag to a bull in Gimli's eyes. And it starts this little theme that weaves through this time with Rohan, where Gimli and Eama are often bantering with each other about this. It goes all the way to the end of the book. Remember what I said about as an author, you don't want to do great slabs of explanation as part of the narrative. Here we get Eama describing the geopolitical situation and it feels natural it's necessary information. That's really the rule Only give the information when it feels necessary to release it, otherwise it feels like padding and the visitors need to know what's going on. 30:16 And because I think Aragorn is sensing the leadership qualities of young Aemma. He declares himself, which is a big moment because, rohan though, it is a separate kingdom, he would be or will be their overlord and he's wanting to assert that at this point and get cooperation, as is the age-old tradition between Rohan and Gondor. So he throws back his cloak. The elven sheath glittered as he grasped it and the bright blade of Anduril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. Elendil, he cried, I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone Dunadan, the heir of Isildur, elendil's, son of Gondor. Here is the sword that was broken and is forged again. Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly. Gives them a choice, swiftly, gives them a choice. And I suppose one reaction would have been you're crazy, you're deluded, and some of the people listening are more of that sort of point of view. But Airmare is actually. He takes a moment to think about it and he is awed. He senses that this is a big moment for him to decide. So the point of decision is actually delayed to the moment when they part. 31:47 But they go from that to talking about the orcs that they killed. Because Aragorn asks did you see our friends? And this reveals an interesting little fact that the Rohan culture has stories about halflings, so they know what Aragorn is referring to when he describes them as halflings. Oh, in fact, actually it's Gimli who calls them a halfling. Aragorn is referring to them as they look like children or dwarves, assuming that the Rohan culture doesn't know. And again, this is one of those lovely bits of weaving that's going on because there's a discussion between Merry and Theoden about the cultures knowing each other, which is rather lovely detail. It's interesting that Rohan knows about halflings, whereas the Ents don't Disgust, possibly because they're from the north and that's where the hobbits have settled. We also because they have told us actually you were chasing those orcs. 32:51 Emma says we've destroyed them. There were no hobbits. We're left wondering have Merry and Pippin got caught up in the slaughter? Are they dead? We hope not. It feels like the kind of story where they won't be dead, but we've just lost Boromir. So there is a bit of jeopardy here. 33:07 And then we get a couple of other little details I want to bring your attention to. We get a recap on the role of shadow facts. At this point it's good to foreshadow things that are about to become a big factor in a story we did hear about shadow facts way back in the Council of Elrond, in the account of Gandalf fleeing from Rohan fleeing from Saruman in fact. And now we get again a story about Shadowfax with a sense of how important he is to the Rohan culture, and we also have the foreshadowing of the kind of reception that Gandalf is going to get when he goes to see Therden. So plant the seeds early so that they can bloom at the right moment is the moral of that author tip there. 34:01 And we also get the final totting up of how far they've gone. Now Emma says 45 leagues, so that's about 135 miles, isn't it? Something like that? That's pretty good going, but I suspect it's further, because I think he's measuring from the moment they left the Emin wheel, so it's even further than that. But that's quite nice to actually have a distance put on it, and it's why you can draw pretty accurate maps of Middle Earth as a result, because Tolkien has more or less paced it out in his own mind. 34:38 We also have another tying off of a thread. So turn over your tapestry, look at the back. We're tying off the thread about the tribute plate paid to Mordor. Emma explains that there's nothing like that at all that actually they've been raided and their horses have been stolen. When you understand how deeply they care for their horses, you'd understand they wouldn't hand them over to the enemy. 35:12 But Eamon is the one who starts to sound the note very clearly that it is Saruman who is their foe. It is ill dealing with such a foe. He is a wizard, both cunning and Dwimmer, crafty, having many guises. I think this is one of the lines they kept in the film. Dwimmer wasn't explained in context here, not explained in the film, but looking it up, dwimmel is an old English word meaning illusion or sorcery, so that's rather nice. So I think we should bring that word back, that when we talk about illusions we can talk about Dwemer I have to try and use that somewhere myself and he hints ahead to the troubles happening at Edoras. 35:53 And we, unless you've got a very good memory or read it a zillion times, like many of us have we won't know or hardly remember that the reason why Gandalf had such a rocky reception was because of an advisor to the king and the king himself being hostile. But this is a reminder. So we're ready for that encounter. That's going to happen in a couple of chapters time we get here an account of the battle from the point of view of the riders of Rohan. This is interesting because we get the battle again from the point of view of the hobbits. So we're playing around with the timeline here, but it's fun to read it first from the point of view of the victors. So we know when we reach the Pippin and Merry part who's going to win, but we don't know how they survive. So you don't tell us everything. We just get the broad outline of what's happened in that battle, because from Pippin and Merry's point of view they sort of see bits, shadows, moments, arrows coming out of the dark, bits, shadows, moments, arrows coming out of the dark. So it's a clever way of explaining a little skirmish like that. 37:05 We also have one of those wonderful moments when Tolkien shows his wisdom. I haven't thought about this one, but it's a bit similar to the moment that we get when Gandalf tells Frodo about how all those who live through those times, all you have to do is decide what to do with the time. You know that phrase which happens right at the beginning of Fellowship of the Ring. Here is a similar sentiment, but this is a discussion between Éirmere and Aragorn, where Aragorn is showing his wisdom. And Airmere's question is how shall a man judge what to do in such times? Aragorn's answer is really wise, as he has ever judged good and ill have not changed since yesteryear. 38:01 So I'm writing this at a time where a lot of humanitarian, loving, generous instincts are being ignored in the sort of international politics of things. Political violence, national violence, all sorts of things are going on. It's the world we're living in and actually it's very good as a way of saying what should we do at these times? We should judge as we have ever judged. Our values should remain steady. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear. Our values should remain steady. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear. Just because the person doing the evil may look different, what they do should still be judged by the same, not excused, judged by the same yardstick. And this is where Eamon shows his worth by his choice he's not given a choice to reject the ring, which was the other way of judging character that we see in this book. 38:59 He risks his own status at the court by deciding to help the three hunters by giving them horses. We can sort of family locate him amongst our heroes, and there's a lovely moment here again which foregrounds Legolas and his nature and his choice to how he rides, which is where he takes off the bridle of the horses, given Arad was his name. But Legolas asked him to take off saddle and rein. I need them not, he said, and leap lightly up. And to their wonder, arad was tame and willing beneath him, moving here and there with but a spoken word. Such was the elvish way with all good beasts. Gimli was lifted up behind his friend and he clung to him not much more at ease than Sam Gamgee in a boat, notice leaped lightly. Not a little bit of Tolkienian alliteration to enjoy. 39:58 So we get to the last third of this chapter, leaving behind, or in fact, the riders ride off, they head in different directions and our hunters reach the battlefield where the ashes were still hot and smoking. So there is no sign of the hobbits. And so we have this acute moment of jeopardy that they are lost forever in the wilds. And this leads to a little bit of hand-wringing, really. Gimli says perhaps they should never have come on the journey, that sort of sentiment. 40:32 And we get another piece of wisdom here from Aragorn. He's really coming to the fore here as a new fount of wisdom, piece of wisdom here from Aragorn. He's really coming to the fore here as a new fount of wisdom. He says there are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark. I think this is often when you think about people who resist under totalitarian regimes and those sorts of people. It's some things better to begin, even though the end may be dark. It's better to be that person than the of people. Something's better to begin, even though the end may be dark. It's better to be that person than the collaborator. It's better to be the brave person who fights for or tries to defend what they believe in, even if it fails, than the person who acquiesces. So resistance is what Aragorn is counselling. Resistance to inactivity. Do it, do what you think, take the risk. 41:39 Little moments which the film has never touched, and this is one of them. And I wanted to mention the chestnut tree because my mother-in-law, who has passed away now. She absolutely loved this section and she talked to me about it. She mentioned particularly the way the brown leaves of the chestnut tree now stood out stiff and rubbed together like many cold, cracked hands taking comfort in the warmth. If you look at a chestnut tree that has a few leaves remaining on it because, remember, this is the far end of winter they're all wrinkled up. They do look like hands. So it's picking up something about chestnut trees very economically, but also hinting here of the way trees have personalities, and that's an important thing to bear in mind when we enter Fangorn. 42:29 But before we get to meet the Ents, we do have a moment to reflect on what it is about Fangorn that might be hidden there. And again songs come to the rescue when written records have no mention. Legolas says I have heard nothing of this in my own land, save only songs that tell how the Anodrim that men called Ents dwelt there long ago. For Fangorn is old, old even as the elves would reckon it. I do wonder why elves haven't wandered down. It's not that far, and I'm sure Galadriel and Celeborn know about it. So, legolas, it's about time you get to know what is not that far away from your woodland realm. Don't know how many leagues it is, but it's not so very distant. Anyway, we're going with the fiction that they don't know what's there, because that's more exciting. But we've got the hint that prepares the way, and then we get the final part, which is we've been told by Airmere that Saruman is often seen in different guises. 43:35 And here we get a mysterious moment. When they're on the watch, gimli is sitting by the fire and suddenly he looks up. On the edge of the firelight stood an old, bent man leaning on a staff and wrapped in a great cloak. His wide brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. Now they don't attack him, they challenge him or invite him trying to work out who he is. And at the same time as this is happening, the horses are running off with making a happy sound. They're fleeing, but they seem to be happy to flee. That's explained in a future chapter. 44:14 I'm not sure that the identity of this mysterious old man is ever totally explained. I'll look out for it. On this read through, because here, when someone says I think it was Saruman, aemma said he walks about like an old man hooded in cloak. Aragorn says oh, yes, but he had a hat. And what wizard do we know who wears a hat. But I got a feeling, if I remember this detail correctly, that Gandalf says it wasn't him, which means it must have been some kind of projection or person, some sort of presence of Saruman. 44:54 Anyway, let's see if we can clear up that mystery, as we do a very careful read through at this point. And so our heroes are left high and dry. They're in the middle of well, on the edge of Rohan, aren't they? Just by the eaves of Fangorn, with no horses and the horses they promised to return. So that's a bit embarrassing for them. Added to that, and they haven't found Pippin and Merry. So we have to wait to the next chapter to find out if our two hobbit characters have survived their horrible time with the orcs thanks for listening to Mythmakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 45:38 - Speaker 2 (None) Visit OxfordCentreforFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.