Spiderman No Way Home - a review of all things Spidey!

Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy creatives and fantasy fans. My name is Julia Gauding. I am the director of the Oxford Centre for Fantasy and also an author. And today I'm joined by our Marvel fan Edward. And we're going to be talking about Spider-Man No Way Home, which in this week has just topped over a billion in taking globally and has joined the ranks of the 10 highest grossing films. So it's clearly made swung in with a great impact on to the cinematic scene this year. We should give a quick shout out at the very beginning to the writers because when people talk about films the writers often get forgotten. So I want to make sure that we all recognise the work of Chris McKenna and Eric Summers in writing the script for this particular film. But before we go to review the film I think it'd be interesting to review where Spider-Man came from and how it fits within the Marvel Universe. So Edward there's obviously been many Spider-Man films before but what is the story of how Spider-Man came to join the Marvel Universe and be made by Marvel Studios? It's a pleasure to be back. So Spider-Man was a character made by Marvel, Marvel the comic company at least, but at some point along the road they sold off the film rights to him and most of their other characters that were making a lot of money at the time. And so Marvel Studios as it exists today wasn't around when they started making Marvel Spider-Man films and instead it was Sony who owned all the rights. So those first Toby McGuire films came from Sony owning the film rights and making the stories from there and they had three films, all of which did pretty well. But they decided to not continue it to a fourth and instead reboot Spider-Man if you like with another what was meant to be at least another trilogy and by this time Marvel had made their own film studio and had started off their films but then we got some Andrew Garfield films. That's the amazing Spider-Man. Yeah so they had the prefix, the amazing instead and they had one film which had moderate success and then a second film which was pretty panned with these critically and I'm pretty sure commercially and they decided to eventually strike a deal with Marvel Studios now owned by Disney to sort of collaborate together and that's how we ended up with I guess they're called the home trilogy because they all got home in their title with Tom Holland. So just before we move on to the Tom Holland series I'm interested in the failure as well as success. So why do you think the second amazing Spider-Man film failed? It happens to be the only one I haven't seen. I've seen all the others and I had a reason personal reason for not wanting to see the second one and I wondered if that was part of the problem because I know it has a very unhappy turn in it doesn't it? Yeah I mean spoilers for probably I guess it's probably 10 years by now I'm not quite sure. I think we're now to say. Yeah no it has it has a sad moment in it and to be honest that's probably the bit of the film that works best and is used in this new film against what is on that retrospectively. There is actually if you want somebody a more expert opinion on why it wasn't a success there are actually some published notes there was an email hack I don't know if you remember of Sony and loads of stuff came out in that about Spider-Man and one of the things was some communication between Sony and Kevin Feige who's you know the architect for the Marvel Cinematic Universe and he basically went through a list of changes he would have made and things he didn't think worked which you seem to have been proving mostly right on but the general notes I think are they they were trying to do too much really they were trying to set up a whole series of other films they could spin out from it and kind of had a bit of a confused mess as a result they they had I'm trying to remember quite how many I think it was technically three different villains in the amazing Spider-Man 2 but they also had a basement where you could it was full of villain suits which isn't really a very compelling character origin to then say oh well if you want to be the villain the rhino you just go to that basement and you put on the suit and then now you're the villain the rhino there was a lot of weird convolution in that series they were trying to have this angle where his parents were like cool spies or something so they threw everything in the kitchen sink at it and something about that meant it collapsed under the weight of its own accumulated narrative yeah I mean I personally I still quite enjoyed the film I don't I think it's a mess don't get me wrong but I think it's got some really effective scenes in it Andrew Garfield is a great actor I mean I don't think he's not his thought that the film doesn't succeed he may be miscast by the age he's doing that well it is it is pretty funny to see I mean this is a problem in at least the first two tragedies to see a 20 well 28 possibly 30s year old man go around pretending that they're a high and the teachers look about the same age in a lot of cases okay so let's turn to Tom Holland to join the Marvel Universe not in his own film to begin with he began in the Avengers didn't he he was sort of first introduced gently that way yes so rather unusual first entry for him in that yes it was in there it wasn't technically an Avengers film but it basically was it was in Captain America Civil War and there he had just a short appearance really but they they knew what they were doing and knew it was a big character to be introducing and I think it was quite a fairly it was a fairly late addition to that film and it seems that quite a lot of changes in these Spider-Man films get made as the planets align with studio decisions and agreements being reached and the deal came in just in time for him to be put in it so they changed quite a lot about what had been done previously with the character to make him fit in there in such an unusual point because he didn't have like a full origin in that story they had to make it shorter and make it fit and I think they quite a large extent they could rely on this is very famous character you don't really need to explain where he's from most people know I think at least certainly most people who are going to go see Captain America Civil War will know Spider-Man his name is Peter Parker he got bitten by a radioactive spider his uncle was murdered with great power comes great responsibility superhero that's been in there since his origin and their elements that work and so then he Tom Holland was then in his own film which was Spider-Man Homecoming and that's the one about the Homecoming Dance and he was convincingly a high schooler because what I think he was in his late teens wasn't he he'd come out of being a dancer on the Billy Elliot stage show and then this was one of his first major roles on screen yes he was very late teens or at least early 20s yeah so they didn't make the same mistake of having someone too old he looked like he could be walking he still does actually look quite very young so he gets away with it in a way he's one of those useful actors a bit like Elijah Wood or Daniel Radcliffe he's got that young look he's going to have that for a long time I think so you had the Spider-Man Homecoming and then my personal favorite of all of them is Spider-Man Far From Home which is the one where they go on the school trip I like all the stuff with the teachers that makes me laugh and then we've just had this latest installment which is Spider-Man No Way Home which was set up in a one of those right at the end scenes where they reveal something which then they pick up in the next film and this one was that his real identity had been exposed to the world so we knew this was coming we knew roughly where he was what his dilemma was before the film came out did you have much hopes for this film did you know it's going to be good or did you expect it not to hit the right notes I think I knew I would enjoy it the directors it was the same director for all three of the Tom Holland films that's John Watts yeah he's proved himself to be very very capable and I thought it's important to remember with all the marketing around this it was kind of a poorly kept secret that they have other Spider-Man in it so if you haven't seen the film now and you don't want to know yeah if you don't want to know about the major plot points in it stop listening go and watch it and then come back and see if you agree with our review of it because I don't think we can sensibly talk about it without saying there are other Spider-Man because it is the best bit yeah maybe a full spoiler yeah well we will yeah but yeah no I thought that I would probably enjoy it but I wasn't necessarily expecting it to come together as a story and I don't know if it not everything in it did I think not everything made sense but it did make a consistent narrative in a way that I didn't think it would I I thought that it would probably be just quite a fan servicie fun ride which it was but it did it also have I think it's fair to say a plot and an arc in it yes it has basically three acts which is quite classic it's got an opening act which is spider-man saying I've been exposed I want to undo that so the beginning of the film is all about the and the shortest part is all about what happens to him when he becomes too famous a bit of a hate figure the impact on his friends and family and the middle act is he's gone to Dr. Strange to have that process reversed so he can go back to how things were and that's when the previous villains start coming into his universe as a collision of this multiverse and that's the weakest part I think is to if unless you absolutely know who all these villains are some of the emotional impact or that is muffled I think it's it's oh this person turns up and this person they're actually five villains who come back only three of which really get proper screen treatment so I think they may have overdone the number of villains and then the last act is really the best one I think with the return of the other two spider-men and the strongest and most emotional films are part of the film is when they're talking to each other and supporting each other from their different perspectives of maturity with Tom Holland's character being the youngest and the Toby McGuire character being the oldest and there is a very pleasing way they tie up some of the threads that were left trailing in the other two series there's a moment for redemption for each of the other two spider-men which I thought was great that was very nice and made a wonderful story arc a bit over long do you think it was um I think that it earned its run time to be honest I don't know if I necessarily agree that the the middle bit was weakest but maybe that's just because I appreciate seeing these returning turning villains but what about that Sandman character who gets practically there's him and see I can't even remember there's I was wondering who you think the three who is green goblin so yeah so he gets good treatment spurs guy so to see and did you think the third that had good treatment was the I can't magnetic one oh do you mean a lecturer a lecturer oh yeah with a sparky yeah it's a bit of a sudden you know if I'd even include him on the list really I think that doc to architect green goblin got you know dedicated time and the other three were there to sort of round out the villains yeah particularly the Sandman one that's actually somewhere where it doesn't really work with the character they had established in previous films I don't remember that much about him to be honest but I'm pretty sure that he was basically a good guy by the end and he starts this film as a quite good guy as well and then just at some point decides he's going to join the baddies I think there's maybe a missing plot beat in there which would sort of I don't know convince him that he actually needs to team up with them and then the the lizard is a bit of a weird character the lizard thank you I've see I've forgotten him it shows that there was something wrong there in the storytelling I mean he was probably one of the weaker villains they ever had to be honest so I guess it makes sense that he wasn't as well used I suppose one of the things they're trying to do is match the good guys who are obviously Spider-Man and his two friends what two other Spider-Man no no MJ and Ned and then the other two Spider-Man so you get five and five yes I mean there's an interesting thing there which is famously Spider-Man fights the sinister six who the exact roster tends to vary a bit but is usually this is in the world of the comics is it yes and other consequent media and I think that they were really angling for six and couldn't quite make it work in the end it couldn't quite find somebody else and it was already established oh my goodness then you'd have to have in there must be a villain that they didn't use they could have brought like rhino guy that Russian rhino guy he would have even less treatment in the film I think but at least it would be six and I know that they did have I mean it's much more than after thought really but they did technically have venom in their film you could have been it probably made more and I suppose Dr Strange was also in it though to say he was on the good guy side he is actually an antagonistic presence for much of it yeah he's got a lot to answer for he certainly has I mean we'll come to him in a minute because I think that's a part where the plot doesn't quite hold together but I think it's important to say that one of the successful things that this particular um film did is that the fight wasn't about let's defeat the bad guy it's a fight about what can we do for the bad guy and I like that I really like the fact that they were the stance that's by the man Tom Holland is taking is we can't just go and crush the bad guy because that has the some of the bad guys are the result of that having happened to them what you do with your power produces gets the backlash and then he's trying to break that circle at great cost we won't spoil the plot totally for that but there is a great cost that is levied as a result of that decision I think we should maybe talk about it okay okay okay again this is a spoiler warning here so I think that so the big change the big twist that we're talking about is that um somewhere in the middle of the film prior to the final act sort of getting started is Aunt May his only living family is killed by the green goblin and that sort of sets him on this arc of vengeance until he gets the influence of the other spider-man and I thought that that was an interesting choice because one thing that's been pointed out by quite a lot of commentator sense is that this trilogy now sort of forms its own spider-man origin story and where they've left instead of Uncle Ben dying as his sort of classic version Aunt May and perhaps you could argue a combination of Iron Man who's also dead by now and was a father type figure they serve as the motivation if you like for his super heroics and in fact there doesn't actually there's not necessarily ever been an Uncle Ben to this spider-man I don't think it's explicitly mentioned at any point that there was an Uncle Ben who said something about with great power comes great responsibility and so I think it forms quite a neat like trilogy on its own as a result of that and I think it does make for quite a good scene between between the two actors I think on the theme of the women in the film that another the strongest Mary Jane or MJ in this case is in this group of spider-man films because the way Zen Deia plays it as this sardonic presence I think it's absolutely charming and has broken a mold in that she there is nothing traditional about that kind of girlfriend I think she has a really fresh presence and I have enjoyed watching every moment of her on screen as a result so I thought that was very successful she never felt like a sort of side you know appendage she felt like a strong person in her own right yeah I mean Kirsten Dunn still spend most of the Tobian McGuire films being kidnapped by a villain taken to a high place and then has to scream whilst spider-man fights villain in general I think that happens in all three yes and then this one Zen Deia is definitely there with nerd they're equally taking down all in distress on her own at least from what I can remember so I think you know that's that that's a real plus point and that's a series as well to you don't need to do that no it's been seen yeah so that was that was really good too so thinking about the film as a whole there is one issue that we had as we were discussing it is the role of Doctor Strange he connects spider-man to the idea of the multiverse really doesn't he is through him and his magic that this breakage happens and what's really I think slightly problematic in the film is he makes it seem as though it's entirely spider-man's fault when it is a classic case of well well I hope you're happy you did this where's he's the one who lost concentration where he deflects the blame and I've that was a bit strange and I wonder what it's going to do for the next Doctor Strange film if they're going to have any connection to that because he did seem and this is a bit of you could argue that what they were doing is showing that he's in a point of crisis in his life where he is making bad decisions okay because he has he's lost his job he's been gone for five years maybe he feels guilty for killing that guy he didn't like iron man which he sort of did argue it was his plan was his plan yeah yeah and this is this is sort of spoilers again but it looks as if based on a trailer that's at the end of the spider-man film it looks as if his love interest from the last film is getting married and not to him so I think that's probably going to be okay so you could put it as he is making bad decisions but I think there's very little self-awareness from him and no point does he go I should have probably explained or maybe I should have taken the moment to sort of warn you what would happen here he is a doctor there are preps before surgeries and he's meant to be a surgeon you would have thought he'd do better yeah I mean we're referring to the actual spell or the casting of this spell scene where all sorts of things come up and he's acting as if by the man's questions were not fair or unnecessary when really there are the kind of questions he should have it's a bit like saying what the possible side effects might be for an operation you need that conversation before you're in the middle of the operation and that but it doesn't happen like that but I mean of course the answer is I mean it needed to happen to enable them to do what they did with the story where they could have all of these it's just an excuse to put them all together all these characters really so I think one of the themes that come through the the whole of the the Tom Holland version of spider-man is always this thing about unintended consequences because in his own first film spider-man homecoming he tries to be a superhero in the kind of way that he sees the Avengers being and it ends up back firing and blowing up a local corner shop and all sorts of things so he's reigned in by the Tony Stark character because he's had unintended consequences he wasn't old enough to take on the role he was trying to achieve all he was doing it for the wrong reasons yes and I think that's quite an interesting theme that runs all the way through the spider-man and the same thing happens in this film is that very much on a bigger scale he has what he wants has unintended consequences i.e. the arrival of all these bad guys so that's a nice theme that's run through the whole trilogy yes and I think that links back into the idea that this is an origin trilogy because in that original story which was adapted for the Toby McGuire and Andrew Garfield a fairly important part of the origin is that there is a part where spider-man can prevent the man who then goes on to kill Uncle Ben from doing that he doesn't realize that's what he's doing at the time letting this guy go who then goes to kill his uncle and that's when the lesson of with great power comes great responsibility really sinks in so you could argue in a way that that sort of loops back into this being an origin where in each film there is this lesson being really drilled in and that by the end of it he's at sort of the more classics by the man status quo and is fully set up as a character yes and the other theme that runs through of course is sacrifice which comes into a lot of the Marvel films oddly it also came into last year's other big film which is the James Bond no time to die it's the you sacrifice the thing you want most for the greater good obviously it also comes into a lot of the rings and almost many a fantasy story what did you think of the sacrifice that is demanded of spider-man in this film do you mean the one at the end yeah I mean I don't think it was necessarily done for story reasons it's it's a difficult thing to speculate on but it works very conveniently in that now he's disconnected from most of the Marvel universe stuff so if they do fail to find a deal for the next time it's not necessarily as larger problem as if he's meant to be always around in the Avengers or something it does allow a reset button yes doesn't it well think about it as a story as a sort of a conclusion to his character arc I think it's quite good because it then yeah means that he is choosing to take further sacrifice and suffering but importantly despite that choosing to be a hero anyway which is part of the lessons that are imparted on to him by the other two spider-man he meet who've had similar similar things where they've had not necessarily knowing beforehand that they were going to make a sacrifice but they've had something happen as a result of them and their actions and it's also the Tony Stark endgame moment as well where he has his wife and his child and almost everything to live for and that's what he has to give up they're very powerful it's very moving it's not just might sort of prevail it's not that it's it's spider-man does thrive on having a bit of tragedy it seems and it's quite a it's a fairly new one to see at least on film they have a very good scene at the end where he goes to a coffee shop and MJ is there and Ned is there but neither of them recognize him and there's something you know particularly tragic about that although it strange that at least in films spider-man has become a sort of known for always having sad things and funerals when really I think as a character he does have things every now and again that are like that those tragedies they set him up but most of the time he's quite a a happy go lucky if a bit down on his luck character so what do you think is the best spider-man film I actually don't think it's any of the ones we've mentioned okay because prior to this film there was another spider-man meets other spider-man film and that was there was an animated film called Into the Spider-Verse oh yeah and I actually think that's probably my favorite spider-man film I think that gave surely that gave the idea for this one oh yeah I mean I think it's probably something that they had considered before but I think the success of that made this pretty much a certainty and that in that case they didn't have a popularly known versions of spider-man like faces they could bring back but I think what they did considering that there hadn't been something before that apart from what people sort of know about spider-man was very very effective and I think that they use the mechanism of different spider-man having different things have happened to them in some ways more effective at least I think I liked I just particularly like it because they have a version of spider-man who's basically the Toby McGuire one but they commit to things that like his life really having gone down the drain which I enjoyed greatly oh yes he's a bit like the fat Thor isn't he he's that kind of thing gone to seed I mean he's he's you know lost the the joy for his work and for for life but clearly he's still really good at it but he's like his relationship has failed and it's like he's broke all of these things whereas I kind of felt that they could have done that a bit more with the Toby McGuire spider-man who's basically the same but they weren't willing to commit to saying what had happened to him in quite the same way because they thought well maybe we will do something with him and also they are a bit different personality-wise I think that it's interesting to see all the performances together because I think I mean I don't mean this to be cruel to the actors but I think Toby McGuire is the most believable as like the nerdy Peter Parker I think that Andrew Garfield is far too handsome and cool looking to be bullied for that but I think he is very good as spider-man and sort of the serious stuff you know the tragedies and then I think Tom Holland is quite a he's a pretty good balance between those I think he's he's pretty good at both he's less he's still I think he's a bit more similar as when he's in the costume to the Toby McGuire one I think that Andrew Garfield really pulled off the sort of snarky grippy nature whilst in whilst in the suit I'd say that Tom Holland is my favorite spider-man though I would just give I mean I think he's in the best films yes maybe that's it like there are lots of people who love the Sam Raimi which is the Toby McGuire one's more well I have my favorite moment is in those films though and I can't remember it might be the second one I love the moment where he puts his Toby McGuire one yeah in the Toby McGuire he puts his his on a downward trajectory everything's going wrong for him and it's summed up for when he puts his spider-man outfit in the washing machine and watch his all his washing going red it's such a clever image of you know those mistakes we all made but for a superhero so that's really and those films really is incredible how good they are considering that they were really uh reaching the wall in a lot of ways I mean they all the subsequent spider-man films have had a lot more superhero successful films to go on but yeah the Sam Raimi stuff does some really really good and innovative things thank you so in some if you were having to give it a kind of five star out of five stars review where would you place spider-man no way home oh well had a great time I would probably you know four or five yeah I think so too it was I thought it was a great really good entertaining film I'm not sure if it necessarily would be as good if you if you don't care about spider-man and you haven't seen those other spider-man films but because I had it did yeah I still think the the school trip one is just the funniest because of the the parallel stories running with the school trip doing one thing and spider-man doing another the scene in jail for example is brilliant in that so I think that's still my favorite as you know it we always have a section where we do wherein all the fantasy world is the best place for something and I want this time to do where is the best place to be spider-man because I remember talking some years ago with you about how one thread of the storyline for spider-man pun intended was to come to college in I think it was Oxford yeah well it wasn't that he'd been offered a place but yeah it's in the Andrew Garfield ones his girlfriend Gwen Stacey by Emma Stone I think it's is either Oxford or Cambridge she's been offered a spot and he's they're seriously considering both moving I think and he's sort of thinking oh can I can I fight crime in Oxford and yeah he wouldn't probably wouldn't get very far given that the skyscrapers of New York City enabled you to swing through majestically but you would end up circulating around the Radcliffe camera basically there's and the university church spot there's not many places together preventing bike thefts on the whole yeah so Oxford is not a great place to be spider-man so where would you think would be the best place to be spider-man well I think you need you need the the very tall buildings certainly and you need there to be a decent amount of crime to stop I would say that there are some of those some of the cities in the in the Star Wars prequels I've got that city planet Coruscant but then I think about that a bit more and I think he's not equipped to deal with a lot of the lot of the changes there I think so maybe maybe not that what's uh another where's you know it's crossing it's the DC but Gotham City is you know lots of crime and skyscrapers oh he's also doing pretty well there yeah I was thinking that maybe for going on holiday somewhere like um Athylian would be a good place for him to go oh yeah he could go through trees or Lothlorian or somewhere like that get him out in nature so he can just enjoy himself or even Tarzan's jungle you know staying more on earth yeah I think it's about time he gave spider-man a holiday because his last holiday ended up in disaster being attacked all the way across Europe so send him to yeah okay so we'll say you can go to Athylian or maybe what's the Lothlorian forest well that is called lorian yeah Athylian is the one I thought was a bit more crime there because of the sort of you know proximity to to Mordor yeah anyway so thank you very much Ed and for reviewing that for us and I'm sure looking ahead there are many more Marvel films to come so we'll have you back to talk about the next trash so thank you very much for listening and happy new year thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Center for Fantasy visit Oxford Center for Fantasy.org to join in the fun find out about our online courses 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