The Curse of the Silvan Oaks: Meet Debut Fantasy Writer, Georgia Channon

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and today I am joined by Georgia Channon. Now, Georgia, I believe this is your first book. Uh, it's called the Curse of Sylvan Oaks, aimed at children, um, but Georgia will have a lot to tell us about her journey to being an author. But first of all, welcome to Mythmakers. 00:35 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm very excited. 00:39 - Julia Golding (Host) So, georgia, um, I noticed from the little sort of press release I got given with your book that you mentioned of influences like CS Lewis and other authors like that in your background. Do you want to tell us why you've decided to do this dotty thing of being an author and who were the authors that cheered you on your way? 01:01 - Georgia Channon (Guest) that cheered you on your way. Well, right from the start I literally adored reading fantasy novels, even the Enid Blyton, the Magic Faraway Tree the world's turning on the tree at the top of the tree used to just. I found so exciting, and I love that feeling that you get the sort of pinpricks of excitement as you go through the portal or whichever gateway it is. And then I moved on to Lion and Witch, the Magician's Nephew. I love those two, and obviously the Horse and His Boy and I also. Joan Aitken was a great love of mine. I love those books. 01:40 You know, wolves of Willoughby Chase is less sort of fantasy, but they are living in a fantasy world because it doesn't exist. It's sort of James III made up historical time and and I I love Midnight is a Place is one of my favorite books. But um, and then in the part I then also loved, um EM Nesbitt and their different fantasy worlds and the, the reality that she brought to it. Although it was very fantastical, there was also down to earth. Children and comments that sort of are humorous and I loved all that. And then this, the sort of idea for this book, all really started when I went to A Midsummer Night's Dream as a child taken by my school and I and I became really beguiled by Oberon and Titania and their scenes in the wood. 02:30 I found the most exciting part of the play, and mainly the fact that they were having this huge sort of elemental argument between each other about this little Indian boy, and their arguments were so violent that it was creating storms and earthquakes. The world was being ruptured, and so it was obviously incredibly important to both of them that they would let all this happen. And I became very interested in who this little boy was. Why was he causing this massive argument? And at the end of the play I remember feeling slightly disappointed, sort of, because we're told in passing that Titania, she just hands over the, the boy to Oberon and he walks off with him and and I, I just didn't believe it. 03:15 Titania was so feisty and strong and proud. I just knew she wouldn't give up this boy because she tells how much she loves him, and so this sort of this idea of what the boy, who the boy was and why he was so important, scratched away at the back of my head for a long while, you know many years, and then one day I just sat down and just wrote his story and the story of sacrament, which is the world where Titania and Oberon have their kingdoms and where, you know, this little boy had obviously been hidden from Oberon. And in my book the idea came to me that Titania hid him in the Elizabethan world, you know, in the human world, and so Oberon couldn't find him. And that's when the story started to expand and then sacrament, that the fantasy world, big sort of it, just grew of its own accord and I sort of started writing and it just sort of came flowing out. 04:17 - Julia Golding (Host) So if this idea was planted when you were back in the day, when you were at school. It's obviously been a long time in the gestation, so is there much more to Sacrament that you know? That isn't in this book. 04:32 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yes, there's a lot more to Sacrament. There's a lot of themes that get started in book one that are in book two, and in book two is almost only inrament and it takes on a whole life of itself. And to me sacrament is as important as the characters in this book. I love it so much and it's sort of its own living, breathing world and character itself. And yes, it took a long time for it to develop, but now it's got a life of its own and it's expanding for it to develop and but now it's got a life of its own and it's expanding. 05:07 - Julia Golding (Host) So this is one of the things I think that might be interesting to people listening who perhaps are developing their own other worlds or alternative, parallel world or whatever it is, or sci-fi world is how do you make those decisions as a writer to keep out the extra information, the you know, the, the things that you've developed which aren't relevant to your story? How do you pick a line through your material? 05:33 - Georgia Channon (Guest) well, I mean, actually initially a lot or quite a lot of them were in the book, and then I edited it because it was at least double, almost triple the size and it was just, it was too long and overblown. So I took those pieces out rather reluctantly, but they were always there in my head anyway. And then the very important themes for book one were obvious. Then I knew which ones were the ones to stick to, but with the knowledge of the other bits of information about sacrament which have also gone into book two, so I sort of felt that they weren't lost. And but so I had this whole biography, or you know of it all on, you know, in my head and written down, so I knew I could draw from that. 06:15 - Julia Golding (Host) And was that a choice that you were making, or was that with a editor's help that you saw it away? 06:19 - Georgia Channon (Guest) It was a combination, but when I sent it out I got good feedback. But a lot of people said it's too long and they go on a lot of journeys, a bit like in the Hobbit, you know, when they're always marching on another mountain path. I suddenly realized they were constantly traveling. So I cut some traveling scenes out and and then it became quite clear to me that if the more you took away in some ways, the the stronger the actual story that was left became, so how long is it? 06:47 - Julia Golding (Host) just because I think people are sometimes mystified by the business. Uh, so I think there is a. At the moment, the industry is looking for slightly shorter books than they were previously. So just so people know what they should be aiming for, how long is your book? 07:02 - Georgia Channon (Guest) it's about 70 000 words approximately um, it's still quite long. 07:06 Yeah, it's 5 to 70, but I sort of it was 90 000 words, yeah, um, and then I cut and cut and then I put a little bit more in. But yeah, I think that I think it's. I think sometimes these long books can overface. I think they're brilliant some in some cases. But I think if you want to send out, if you want to get published, don't make your first book too long, because it's more accessible if they're shorter and and in this case I felt it was a much better book for it. 07:37 - Julia Golding (Host) And were you writing this on your own, or how did it come that you actually found the time to do this? Were you doing? Was it running alongside your working life? 07:47 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yeah, I sort of. Initially I was sort of I had a shop that I ran and I was doing that with a friend and but I started writing this and then I did it all different times. But this was eight years ago. I started it, I sent it to a competition and it got turned down and then I started sending it out to agents and I did get an agent for a little bit, a really lovely agent called Christopher Little, and he said he loved it and he loved the imagination. 08:20 But it had a problem it really needed editing. And I went away and started editing it to what I thought was the right standard. But I was completely untrained and I didn't really know what they were looking for and I didn't sort of edit up to standard. And so then we parted ways. And then I this my cousin who, who lives up in the north of Scotland and wrote many books when she was younger, she started to sort of help me look at it and see ways we could sort of cut it a bit. So I did it with a sort of my my cousin really, and it was a wonderful sort of co production. Um, because it was so happy and every time I got another rejection, she would pick me up and um, and so it was a really happy process yeah, and I think the willingness to be edited is such a key skill for writers. 09:11 - Julia Golding (Host) People aren't you're not geniuses who immediately produce an amazing thing first time. We all have this process because we can't see, you can't see, we can't see it and sometimes you've, you've read this book, you know over a hundred times. 09:28 - Georgia Channon (Guest) So you don't, you can't even really you can't see the wood for the trees. And yes, exactly the editing thing. I actually enjoyed the editing and it. By the end my poor cousin was saying you can't cut Eric the ferret, who was a big character in it. And I went Eric, he's gone, we've got to get him out. We need to get this book more slim, slim lined and three lined. 09:49 - Julia Golding (Host) And so and I actually quite found it quite cathartic this process, but also I knew I was going to keep all the bits that I'd cut so that I could reuse them, which made it bearable, otherwise it would have been a bit of a sad process yeah, and I think this idea of reusing um, I don't know what you feel about this, but when I do cut things and put them in a sort of graveyard document or whatever you call your, you know your that bit of your babies or something, yeah, um, I often find that when I go back to them, I need to rewrite them anyway. Yeah, because I've moved on. So take the example of Eric the ferret. If I was then going to include him, like he wouldn't be how he would have been in book one, it would be a new version of him and you rediscover those pieces that you have rejected it's so true, and actually I'm glad to say Eric the ferret does come into book two. 10:41 - Georgia Channon (Guest) He is slightly different, he's left. 10:43 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, it's very true that so, as you mentioned, it's a portal fancy, it's an adventure story, so would you just like to give us like the kind of blurb type approach so people got more of an idea of who is involved in your story? 10:58 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yes, so I mean in my book. There's this world, sacrament, this sort of dangerous, beautiful world that was the world of Titania and Oberon, who, the king and queen of the forest from Midsummer Night's Dream and sacrament is connected to our world, the human world, by a series of portals, and in the olden days, 600 years ago and more, everyone traveled backwards and forwards through these portals before we went into the scientific age. And so it was there, I mean in my story, but not in this actual book. But that's how Shakespeare traveled through a portal and that's how he met Titania and then went home to Stratford and went on to write A Midsummer Night's Dream. And so that's the premise. 11:46 And so the little Indian boy that I mentioned earlier, who is being pursued by Oberon, who Titania is hiding in her desperation, she finally hides him in the Elizabethan world, in a house called Foxley Hall that's owned by someone called Lord Rivers. And then, in the modern day, the descendant of the little boy, who obviously grew up in Elizabethan England and then had children and grandchildren, his descendant moves back to the area, she moves into a damp cottage near Swindon because her mother is now working in Foxley Hall and Olivia Olly Gill she's the descendant. She wanders through the house and strange things start to happen to her, and eventually she is plunged back into the world of sacrament, where obron and titania's descendants, great, great grandchildren, are in the midst of a sort of bloody, bitter war which only she can really resolve I was transported back to my own sort of childhood tastes and reading. 12:52 - Julia Golding (Host) As I was reading your book, in fact, I reminded me that one of the very first stories I wrote when I was about 10, um, which I've still got somewhere was called the tapestry room, which took place in an old manor house like this, uh, and the portal. There was a big tapestry which kept changing and being sewn into different shapes. I should write it as an adult, shouldn't I? Anyway, it was a wonderful sort of concept which I had got from the same sort of reading matter that you were talking about. I also was thinking of the Children of Green Know, as I was reading it, another wonderful classic novel. So every time somebody approaches the portal fantasy, they want to do something new with it. What are you saying about your portals? What? Where are you going? That's a little bit different. I already can see some differences, with the connection to the sort of pre-scientific age, for example. 13:48 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Tell us a little bit about the, the doorway that you have chosen well, there's more than one doorway, because, um, obviously that people had portals going backwards and forwards. And there's one hidden in a maze in my book that leads into the old oakwood near foxley hall. But there's there's many different portals because they are the gateways to other worlds. And there's there's one in a standing stone because I've always felt that standing stones, you know, they're such mysterious, wonderful things and in my head I just believe they're gateways. Because why would they? 14:23 I know there were other reasons why they were moved across and put in these extraordinary sort of um placements, but but at the same time I think they contain portals. So that's also a great theme that comes through all the books that I'm going to write as well. And yes, the portals are sort of the passageways that are two-way street so that, you know, people from Sacrament would travel to the human world and vice versa. So I don't know that they're particularly different to other portals, but those are the ones I've got with Sacrament and and the mortal world, but to no other worlds at the moment, until I write another series of books. 15:02 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I think what was interesting as well to read it is you took the choice of starting in Sacrament, yeah, and then going to Swindon. Now, for those of you who are listening, um, from outside the uk, swindon is, um, it's a kind of medium-sized town not known for being particularly architecturally exciting. You know, it's quite close to bath, which everyone goes oh, you know jane austen, and beautiful buildings. Swindon is the opposite the sister of bath, not ugly plain, plain sister, um, so as a reader you're sort of Sister of Bath, not ugly Plain, plain sister. So as a reader, you're sort of smiling at the choice of Swindon. Nothing against Swindon, I live quite near it, but it is not the sexiest location in the country. But you start with the fantasy world to make the point that for the fantasy world, the child from our world is Swindon. The magical person, exactly. 16:05 - Georgia Channon (Guest) And I love the contrast. I mean, it always went in my head, do you remember with the Wizard of Oz, when it's in black and white at the beginning and when they arrive in Oz suddenly you get the technicolor. Well, for me sacrament is the technicolor and Swindon in the Drizzling Rain was the black and white. And I just wanted to start with the exciting, very vivid world of sacrament. And then the contrast is even stronger when you the second chapter. You've got rainy, swindon, everything's a bit gray, a bit depressing and Ollie's a bit sort of, you know, lonely and a bit sad. And and it just. I just like the contrast of that with the sort of multicolored vision of sacrament. 16:50 - Julia Golding (Host) So tell us a little bit about Ollie. I noticed from your dedication that you've got Ollie's in your life. 16:55 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yes, was that a knowing? Yes, it was. Olivia was my sister who died when I was young, so, and she was an avid reader and we used to almost compete on reading you know who could read first which books, and and so, um, that it was definitely named after her and dedicated to her. Um and um. Yes, sorry, what was? What did you ask me after that? 17:17 - Julia Golding (Host) well, I was asking about the actual character of. 17:19 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Ollie, yeah, exactly, and her journey well. 17:21 So she's she's quite lonely because she'd been made to move from her school in Swindon, where she lived in the town in the city, to this damp cottage because her father's died and so she's very sad about that. 17:39 And the mum has financial problems and has had to move from their flat and get this job at Foxley Hall, had to move from their flat and get this job at Foxley Hall, and so she's really quite sort of angry with life, finds her mum quite annoying and misses her dad and has no friends nearby. 17:56 So it's all looking pretty grim and she hasn't even started the new school, which is slightly dreading because she's not, she doesn't find it that easy to meet new people, um, and so she's in a bit of a slump and they've sort of got packing cases all over the cottage floor that gotta start, keep unpacking and and she sort of misses the, the lights of the city and the you know not having dodgy wi-fi and all that stuff. So she she's sort of forced to go over to Foxley Hall by her mum because she's sitting at home on her phone and that's when suddenly she explodes into this extraordinary world so the um, the other hero uh is Corey, who is the main sort of child in the um magical world, sacrament world, but he's not, I wouldn't say, classic hero material. 18:51 - Julia Golding (Host) His brother is more classic hero material. Do you want to talk about the two brothers? 18:55 - Georgia Channon (Guest) yes, exactly. Well, so yeah. So the older brother, zandor, is the typical sylvan heart prince very good at fighting, very brave and sort of naturally sort of good looking. Not, he's not horrible or anything, but he's just perfect in a way, whereas Corey is quite clumsy and nervous, not good at fighting quite. You know, he likes his studies and but he's just a bit of a nervy, can be a little bit petulant child, but he's quite young, he's learning and he's a bit resentful that his brother's got all the sort of classic, sort of wonderful traits of a normal fighting Sylvan Heart Prince. 19:36 But he then learns, he grows throughout the book and at the end is very brave, which in a way he's braver than anyone because he's had to sort of dig much deeper. But and also what is within him is the deep magic which is very rare in sacrament. Now it's almost dying out and it's it. No one knows if he has it, but people think it, but but that's, he doesn't even know, he has it himself. But he, that's where he is special in that way as well. 20:08 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I was going to ask you about your magic system, because magic is like a book's currency, so you could be in Harry Potter, where it seems to flow freely all the time without running out as long as you know the spells, whereas in, say, lord of the Rings, it's kind of infused in the landscape and very rarely used in a sort of spell way. How would you describe your magic currency? 20:34 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Well, in sacrament there's sort of two types of magic. There's the deep magic, which is incredibly and all powerful and in the wrong hands is devastating. And then there's the green magic, which is lighter, more. They would still use it today in sacrament for just everyday things. It, you know, cure a cold maybe, or, uh, just a silly practical joke type magic. 20:58 But the deep magic has been lost. It was banned many years before obron and titania because it was so destructive, um, almost you could say like nuclear, and so, um, it was sort of banned and then all the old and ancient magic sort of died away because it was people were persecuted and um and so now but it doesn't have to always be bad, the deep magic, it's just got to be in the right hands. So now it's sort of like an ancient myth. Almost People don't like. 21:29 Zandor doesn't really believe in all the old magic and all that stuff and he's a bit scathing of his great uncle who's a bit of a magic druid type, and he's scathing because he just thinks it's all rubbish and he just wants to, you know, save his kingdom, which is sort of basically being defeated by Oberon's troops. So the magic is dying away in a way and the trees are cursed, the oak trees. They're the great allies of the Sylvan Hearts, and that's another feature in my book is that the landscape is as important as the characters. In my view, the trees and the mountains and the animals are all as important as the human sort of people, and there's magic everywhere in that respect, but it's not sort of obvious doing a spell magic. 22:22 - Julia Golding (Host) I've always been very taken by the sort of agreement between Tolkien and CS Lewis that books can be applicable rather than allegorical, the difference being the allegory rests in the power of the author and the applicability rests in the power of the reader. You can apply it to whatever you like. What are you expecting your readers to sort of take away from this? What kind of applications? Because I could see several messages is the wrong word because it's not like a po-faced message novel, but there were some applications that I could think of. 23:02 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Well, I mean, I think Corrie, for instance, as an example, he's obviously not the hero, but he's got the deep magic and he can talk to the moon, mermaids and the trees are his allies. So in a way, you could say that that sort of it's taking away the fact that you don't have to be all shiny and brave to be a hero. You know, and Ollie is the same. She's down at mouth, not particularly popular, sad, you know, because of her father and feeling lonely and isolated, and in fact she's the biggest hero in sacrament with um. You know it, just it. It's not what you think. You know, you. What you think is the obvious shiny magic ingredients is actually it's sometimes much more simple than that and it's what's inside you and what you achieve, rather than the outside aura. 23:55 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, and also just reading the description of you, I don't know if this is made up by your publisher or something you offered, but it makes you out to be quite a dreamer but you, it makes you out to be quite a dreamer. 24:09 - Georgia Channon (Guest) I am, and I it's funny enough. I've just spent uh the day yesterday, with my oldest friend, who I've known since she was in her. She was in her mother's womb, she came to my christening while her mom was that old? 24:17 yeah, and she just said, you know, you always had it in you because they had a gate at the end of their garden and apparently I always used to make her sit on the gate and we'd pretend when the gate swung open we were in another land and I'd completely forgotten this. But yes, I always. It's totally true. Every time I used to walk through a wood or see the mists rising across a field or hear an owl, who you know, on a moonlit night, I always get the shivers and think you know, this is the time that you would be brought through a portal or into another dimension or century. And you know, sometimes I'd look around and sort of think, you know, is this going to happen to me? I kind of I'd love it, you know, it's so exciting and I sort of I always, I'll never forget. 25:07 I don't know if you know the book Ghosts, as in the Amazing Mr Blunden, but it's at one point these three children come through. You see these figures coming through the mists and that's their portal and they're from two centuries before and they walk through into the garden and it's one of the most sort of haunting, exciting experiences. So I'd always look at mists, thinking you know, if I walk through that, will I walk out into another world or another land or another century? 25:31 - Julia Golding (Host) So the question I have for you, then, is if you're a sort of dreamer by nature, does this mean that when you sit down to write, you are equally unstructured in the way you approach it? Or are you actually secretly ruthlessly organized? Or are you actually secretly? 25:45 - Georgia Channon (Guest) ruthlessly organized? I'm certainly not organized, but I can be quite organized in my head with how I think something should happen chapter wise. But I mean, I've written this book in car parks waiting for children. I've written it sort of in bed. I've written it sort of on a train. I sort of I feel quite lucky the minute I get my head down I can immediately do it and I kind of know when a chapter should end. It's just, I don't know, it's a sort of natural thing. I feel the rhythm of it. It'd be good to finish it here. I'm not organized enough. I've got piles of paper and it's like where did I put that list about Corrie's sort of um character traits and where did I put this? But it's sort of it is sort of all there in my head in various different sort of dusty bookcases, but it's, it is there but it's not that organized well, I think quite a few people will find that reassuring. 26:38 - Julia Golding (Host) I found as I've as I've gone on that I have a sort of hybrid version of this, a bit of dreaming and a bit of organizing, and I think the more you do it, the more you have a story instinct, which means you don't have to plan as much, in that you you are in a sort of it's a bit like when you know how to drive. You don't have to think about mechanics anymore. A bit similar when you've got a story instinct. So you've already mentioned, there's going to be a part two. Um, do you have a title for part two yet? 27:08 - Georgia Channon (Guest) I do have a title. I mean it may change, but at the moment it's called the death of the deep magic ah, so we got an idea of the theme there. 27:16 - Julia Golding (Host) Yes, and do you see this as a long series or has it already got a? 27:21 - Georgia Channon (Guest) it it was. It was a trilogy but it's possible. It's got to be a bit longer than that, because I can't quite see myself resolving all the plot lines and stories in book three Because there's some huge ones to come which I think, and book two sort of burst out and has got so many I've left myself at the end on such a cliffhanger. That's going to be quite difficult. I've got to think how on earth am I going to write book three, and I've got a feeling it won't quite resolve everything. How on earth am I going to write book three and I've got a feeling it won't quite resolve everything? But that makes me very happy, because I'm always happy when I'm in Sacrament and writing new stuff. 27:57 - Julia Golding (Host) Yes, my first fantasy series was a quartet. Yeah, I'm fond of the quartet Me too, actually. So that's fascinating Georgia. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. And the Curse of the Sylvan Oaks is probably, I'd say, aimed at a middle grade reader. 28:19 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yes, it's seen as 9 to 12, but I think older I mean a lot of adults have read it and have enjoyed it. So I think it's from 9 to 99, to be honest. 28:27 - Julia Golding (Host) Yes, and in the American market they tend to put what we call middle grade a little bit older anyway. So it might be the young end of ya over there, um, but perfect for the dreaming child. Perfect for the dream child, exactly. So we always have a little bit of fun at the end of our um interviews where we let let go of where we've been talking about and just take a theme from that book into all the fantasy worlds available to us. And I was thinking what would I like to take from your book? And the thing that struck me is I love this idea of the normal girl from swindon who pitches up in the fantasy world to find that she's the hero and go quite unprepared for it. So I wondered where in all the fantasy worlds you would like to discover that you're the hero? Imagining you've stumbled into it by some mischance. 29:23 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Well, it's possibly a bit of a cliche, but I think I would have to say I'd like to take the second star to the right and straight on till morning and end up in Neverland, just because of the beauty of the landscape and the wildness and, you know, the mermaids and the lost boys, and obviously then you have the pirates, and I do love a bit of a pirate ship and what results from that. So I think Neverland I would like to end up in, maybe just by the mermaids, by the, the water very fine answer, but I wouldn't. 29:56 - Julia Golding (Host) I would advise you not to get stuck in. Wendy's role seems to involve a lot of sewing and being looking after how? 30:05 no, very good point, yeah um, I was actually tickled to remember a previous interviewee who we had maybe a couple of years ago, a lady called Michelle Diner who writes adult fiction and I'm particularly fond of her class five science fiction stories. They've got a love story in, but the conceit in those books I really enjoy is people have been abducted from Earth to be taken into this scenario of warring planets, but the planet don't. They don't sing particularly well in this world, but they love music, music. So when this uh lady I think she's something ordinary, like I know a librarian or something, or a school teacher she turns up and um, she starts humming along and sings happy birthday to somebody and and like the world screeches to a whole oh, wow, you're amazing, but I'm just, I'm just ordinary. You should really hear people who can sing. You know I love it here. Adele and um, frank scarcher, um, and so it gets. 31:16 There's series of these characters turning up in this in the books, in this series, until the third one where they've abducted a music teacher and wow, um. And so there's a scene, a brilliant scene, where um do they're trying to get protection for her. She's amongst the enemies and the and the allies are trying to say well, she's really important sing, sing. And she's thinking why do I gotta sing? You know she's just arrived, so she's really angry. So she starts singing bohemian rhapsody, including all the operatic bits, and that makes me absolutely hoop in laughter, just that. 31:53 So as I sing, okayish, I would like to find myself in that world where I would be regarded as, like you know, diva um could command any price for my concert. So that's the class five series. That's brilliant, brilliant, yeah. So I would encourage people out there to have fun imagining where you might end up as a hero. If you don't feel very heroic in your ordinary life, there is a place for you in fantasy, true, yeah, thank you so much, georgia, and your book publishes in April. Do you have a date for that? 32:25 - Georgia Channon (Guest) Yeah, April the 10th. 32:27 - Julia Golding (Host) April the 10th. If you're listening to this later, that was april the 10th 2025, so thank you very much for being with us. It's been a wonderful chat with you about the curse of the silver oaks. 32:39 - Speaker 3 (None) Thank you so much for having me thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts worldwide.