Thirst: Horror Folk Stories, Uncanny Rivers and the Walking Dead

00:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and today I'm doing one of my favourite things, which is to meet a fellow fantasy writer, and we are in conversation today with Darren Simpson, whose book Thirst is just about to come out. If you're listening to this a bit later on, it's come out in September 2025, but we're just on the eve of publication as we chat. So hello, Darren. 00:42 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Hi there, Julia. 00:43 - Julia Golding (Host) It's lovely to meet you Now, Darren. It's not your first book, is it? 00:48 - Darren Simpson (Guest) No, it's my fourth published book, after also sort of several unpublished attempts before all that malarkey. 00:55 - Julia Golding (Host) Okay, well, we'll get to the journey to being a published writer in a minute, but let's start by little. Darren, who were your gateway authors to falling in love with the idea of writing, writing fantasy in particular? What were you reading? 01:13 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, it's kind of a multimedia thing for me growing up really. So I think, like a lot of people, I guess my first memorable introduction to fantasy would have been the Narnia books. I remember sort of reading through those when I was quite young and enjoying those, and then after that I think it became a bit more of a VHS thing, I think, in our home. 01:32 - Julia Golding (Host) VHS for the younger generation is. Would you like to explain? 01:37 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Oh, do you know? I don't actually know what it stands for. Now I think about it. 01:40 - Julia Golding (Host) It's a videocassette tape. 01:42 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes. 01:43 - Julia Golding (Host) So it's the technology prior to dvds. Funnily enough, you having said that little sidebar, I have just taken my wedding video, not professionally done, but a wedding video which is on a vhs tape, to be translated, you know, into something digital so that we can watch it, so that technology is a good 30 years old yes, yes, basically, um, yeah, um. 02:10 - Darren Simpson (Guest) And what that technology means is that back in the 80s, with you, basically, the family would have a few vhs tapes ie films, around in the drawer in the house and you'd because you'd have so few of them, you watch them over and over again as a child. So and I remember, uh, we didn't have many vh cassettes, but we did have, of course, labyrinth, which I think pretty much everyone had on tape in those days and also the NeverEnding Story. 02:32 So a very sort of classic 80s fantasy kind of got me drawn into that and I think another one that was quite influential on me. Actually it's a bit more of a cult one, but it was a film called Krull in the 80s. I more of a cult one, but it was a film called crawl in the 80s. I don't know if you remember that by is that sci-fi? It's kind of a weird fantasy sci-fi. That's kind of what I like about it. On hindsight it's kind of this weird. It's kind of got a very strong sort of medieval fantasy vibe but there are weird sci-fi and I think it was on the. 02:57 It was on the tale of star wars. I think the studio was competing but it's got a weird fantasy plus sci-fi blend and to be honest, I mean it wasn't. It's not a great film and it's quite flawed, but I remember being struck by that combination, that kind of weird mixing of genres at the time. I think it's still quite distinctive now, even though the film isn't brilliant. It's got a very young Robbie Coltrane in it, stuff like that. 03:16 You know it's got some names yeah, it's worth a watch but, like I said, it's not a great film. But stylistically that blend of fantasy and science fiction really kind of because I like fantasy and science fiction that kind of really stayed with me. So I think that was a big thing. But in terms of reading fantasy a lot regularly, the first thing I don't know if it really I assume it counts but the Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. 03:35 Of course it counts, yeah, yeah so obviously a sort of different approach to fantasy. But I grew up in an army estate and it was in Germany or often abroad, so we didn't have an English library. Instead, the army would have a van that went around to all the army estates like a library van, something I still love the idea of and I just kind of every time they'd have. There are many things I like, like the Asterix comics and stuff like that. But I was just wolfing down these Terry Pratchett books. 04:06 I think it was my introduction, not to family as such but I guess, to using fantasy as an, as an analogy, as kind of satire. I was reading douglas adams at the time as well, kind of you know, sort of doing a similar thing with science fiction, and I think I really fell for what fantasy allows you in terms of um, kind of obviously the satirical element. There's a lot of absurdity you can play with and stuff. But just that whole idea of um analogy really appealed to me, the way you can explore our world through very different worlds, um, so they were big things for me. Um, yeah, I'd say those, those ones yes, of course. 04:31 - Julia Golding (Host) For me, the um hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy the douglas adams started first as a radio play I mean it's me, but that's early 80s and I would let. 04:42 The thing about the technology then is you had to record the live program, so you had to be there to press record. But I got, I did so, had my little cassette tape, and so I could almost pretty much recite vast quantities of what the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book says as a result, because it sort of goes into your brain like poetry or something, doesn't it? Yeah, and it's wonderful, the Douglas Adams books Particularly. For me it was always particularly the first one. 05:14 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes, yes. 05:15 - Julia Golding (Host) I mean, the others have their funny moments, but the first one is just superb. 05:19 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, also, as I say, like the Terry Pratchett fantasy books, I think, as much as those books are very much comedy, they are full of a lot of wisdom and humanity as well. I think, like Terry Pratchett in particular, there's just so much satire that would still be very relevant today, I think. And I think the reason those books are still so popular now and the Douglas Adams ones, is because there's quite a sort of timeless. Yeah, it's just kind of really sort of latching on to some human things that don't particularly change, I guess, over time yeah, have you ever read his essays? 05:48 a slip of the keyboard no, I've never read any of this for a treat put that on the reading list. 05:53 - Julia Golding (Host) Uh, he's got some great wise words about things like dark lords should be rationed. What's the name of that one again, a slip of the keyboard, and I think they are a Slip of the Keyboard and I think they are a gathering together of the various bits and pieces he wrote for other publications, but it comes out as a set of essays. So anybody out there who wants a kind of humorous take on fantasy writing, it's a very good place to go. 06:20 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Sounds great. 06:21 - Julia Golding (Host) So let's turn to Thirst. Sounds great, so let's turn to Thirst Now. Thirst reminded me an awful lot of the kind of fantasy you get from those people who are steeped in folklore, particularly in the UK context. I'm thinking of Alan Garner was the one I was immediately taken to. So were you reading Alan Garner growing up, or is this something people have told you since? That your book is like this person you never heard of? 06:50 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, it's kind of more the latter really. I think I obviously knew the name Alan Garner for a long time, but I think my interest in folklore and how it ties in with fantasy and folk horror too, that's kind of a more recent fascination that's come to me as a writer and, and I think as I learned about it, the likes of Susan Cooper and Alan Garner, they come up a lot. So I read the owl service, but only kind of, maybe like a couple of years ago when I was sort of thinking about writing something for this age group, um so, and I only read the owl service and I enjoyed it massively, um and um so, but yeah, I wouldn't say um, it had a that sort of thing had a chance to influence me too much. It was more something I approached kind of from the other direction, in hindsight really. 07:29 - Julia Golding (Host) Yes, and so I think the tie is the almost horror relationship with folklore, which is why people go there. Anyway, let's, before we talk about other people, let's talk about your book. Tell us a little bit about Thirst and what's going on in the book, and who are you imagining as your reader as you do it? Because it's not a young child's book, but it's something you can pick up when I'm guessing you're about 10 upwards. 07:57 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, so normally my books so far have been what people would call middle grade, I guess. So about nine plus nine to 12. But even my this book is a bit older now. I'd say officially, like the publisher of marketing, this book has been for teens. So 12 plus is what they're saying, because there is some, um, more mature and dark content, without slipping into the sort of I don't know sex and drugs you might get in. Ya, it's kind of that. There's a bit of a, there's a bit of a reading age that's uncatered for in a way, which is kind of when you're between being a young reader and a YA reader. There's a bit of a gap there and this kind of fills that gap, where it's again not in YA, but it satisfies. Maybe that hung for more mature themes, for something that's a bit edgier and darker. So, yeah, it's officially 12 plus, but a lot of adults have always read my books too and I'm hoping they'd like this too. I still write for adults. We even want to write for children. Um, it's kind of and that's just kind of how I like writing and you don't. I don't want to patronize or talk down to my readership and I think thinking about both audiences helps with that um. So yeah, so that's the age group, um. 08:54 In terms of the story it's, it's basically a um, it's about a fictional rural, pre-industrial village called mainsbury. Um, but they're a bit quirky, they um, they worship their river. Um, and this is kind of based on real kind of pagan traditions. I guess there's been a lot of research and that's found that there was a lot of people to treat rivers as living entities and that kind of sort of thing inspired this book. So in this story and mainsbury, the folk there they worship their river, they sort of, and it gives them plenty, it gives them their fish, it kind of helps, it gives them water. Obviously, it kind of irrigates the fields and in return to that they offer an annual sacrifice. Every festival, every spring, equinox, there's a festival called Yeldthanc. They go deep into the woods, they go to the river, they tie ribbons to the trees and they offer wine and honey, they pour it into the river, they offer that kind of dolls and also they sacrifice a farm animal. Every Yeldthang as well, there's the Yeldthang queen. She puts on a sort of like a crown of flowers and guides the ram into the water or the sheep, and that's what happens. It gets drowned as an offering to the river and the river gives back in return. 10:01 But this year the main character in the story, gorse, on land quite far from the river, outside the forest. That concerns him because it's a sacrifice to the river and when he checks this out with the elders they reassure him it's okay. This means that it's a brim year. It means the river's satisfied already. It's returned our offering. 10:24 What Gorse finds out during the course of the novel is no, it doesn't mean that it means the river wants more. It means that this animal sacrifice isn't enough. It needs a human sacrifice. And this is kind of the secret thing that goes on in the village that no one really talks about, that no one really likes to admit to. So Gorse finds out that he is part of the group who are responsible for hunting down someone from outside the village to drown for the sake of sparing their own, because the river's got quite gruesome ways of taking a local life for itself. So Gorse is in the end, the end. 10:52 That's the crux of novel. It's this very moral dilemma about gorse having to basically hunt down. Uh, there's a girl called faye who's from another village and she's kind of hiding in the forest and on the run from these people who are stalking her. And he has to do the same. He has to join this group and try and drown faye to satisfy the river, and obviously he doesn't want to do that. But if he doesn't, someone he cares about or loves or knows is going to get taken by the river instead in quite probably a grisly way. And that's kind of what the novel is about. It's about Gorse's discovery of this situation and how he faces up to that dilemma and how his character kind of develops as a result of that. 11:24 - Julia Golding (Host) So you mentioned it's in a sort of pre-industrial village. It's a sort of anytime anywhere. It's not a specific moment in history that you have in mind, it's like the time you get in folklore. Yeah, once upon a time. 11:40 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes, a bit fairytale-ish in that sense. I kind of kept the sense of place and exact time quite vague, intentionally a to help with kind of maybe future projects that are set in this fictional county, but also to. I figured if I didn't pin it down that much it would give it that sort of fairy tale-ish air, but also, yeah, kind of give it more of a kind of universal feel in the sense that it is so relatable without being a specific place. 12:05 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, it could almost be a post-apocalyptic world as well. You know, you don't know where it depends, where your brain goes with this. So I noticed as I was reading it. It's beautifully illustrated. It's got lovely chapter vignettes, by the way, if you like books with little pictures, in that it's full of those words and the landscape of what you often hear now as the lost word, so gorse, particularly in people's names, gorse, yarrow, spruce, these are all familiar things in the landscape. But we're also being told that children no longer know what these things are. They no longer do their nature table or, like you might have done, in a sort of 70s primary school. Are you thinking at all about the, the, the environment which is being lost to children as you're writing? Or have you thought about this? Since I don't, you haven't had a chance yet to try it out in school classrooms, I suppose yeah, well, that's kind of I mean that element of reintroducing people to these words. 13:08 - Darren Simpson (Guest) That is kind of, yeah, that's kind of a secondary bonus in a way. I think I chose those names. So, yeah, basically all the characters in mainsbury to distinguish, to distinguish the place as being, um, very much sort of a secondary bonus in a way. I think I chose those names. So, yeah, basically all the characters in Mainsbury to distinguish the place as being very much sort of a self-contained place with its own culture. I came upon the idea of, yeah, naming all the characters after kind of plants and herbs and animals, and I think for me the main reason I did that is because it yeah gives the place a distinct in terms of world building. 13:30 It creates a kind of a kind of vibe of the community, a kind of feeling for the place, um, and also I thought it just kind of a lot of those words just feel so good. I mean it's hard to explain but perhaps because they tie into such kind of old english and stuff there's a nice earthy feeling to them. And yeah, I was never right using those names, expecting young readers to. They might recognize a couple of the terms. There are some more common words like for, for burdock, for example, might be recognized from the Dandelion and Burdock drinks perhaps. But I just figured that even if young readers didn't pick up on those words and their roots, they would no pun intended they would still get a feeling of place from those names, of kind of atmosphere. And then if any of them did pick up on that or learn about it afterwards and look up those words and learn some new terms about natural things like that, that's for me is a is a massive bonus. But it was probably never the main goal. 14:20 - Julia Golding (Host) It's not no, no, no yeah. 14:21 - Darren Simpson (Guest) So yes, I'd say it's about more about feeling in place and then. But I do love the idea of if a few young readers do sort of start looking up those words, uh, or if they come across them later on, when they're older perhaps, and they get an interest in that sort of thing. That's always a really nice thing to imagine happening. 14:35 - Julia Golding (Host) But you mentioned I suppose for me as a fellow writer is that interesting side of your naming process is part of your world building. You mentioned Douglas Adams. Of course he's got great silly names you know, and that's the one I immediately go to name. Things like that. You know you're in a silly world of sci-fi. 14:59 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes, yes, absolutely Whereas. 15:01 - Julia Golding (Host) Darth Vader is serious, you know. You can tell they're meant to be afraid of this character. If Darth Vader was called Slartibartfast, it would not work. So not just on this book. How do you go about the process of finding your your names and do you change names? This is something I sometimes do. Do you change names while you're writing? 15:26 - Darren Simpson (Guest) yeah, that's interesting one I mean. So sometimes, like, the names will have a very sort of specific purpose or meaning, like, for example, the, the role I just mentioned the names in thirst um. Or, for another example, in my first book, scavengers, there's a. The main character is called landfill um, which is kind of a reference to this, is basically a boy growing up on a sort of dystopian junkyard it's like a junkyard jungle book sort of story, and, uh, his name kind of is a sort of. It says a lot about the fact that he was kind of a found child, so he's kind of thrown away, but it says a lot about how a lot of stuff we throw away is precious. And his guardian, who named him, was called Babagoo, which that's kind of a way of hiding his real name, and it sort of reveals something about his. But so sometimes, basically sometimes, the names do have a real purpose in terms of connecting with the character and saying something about them. 16:12 Other times, though, when it's perhaps more normal games, when I write a book that's set more in our world, with more standard names, that kind of often comes down. Sometimes there can be a connection, sometimes it's just more about something that feels right for the character I've got in my head. And you're right that name can change because, as I'm sure you'll know, often your characters, you sort of have an idea of what they are at first, but as you start writing they do change and they become other people. They start making their own decisions or surprising you, and sometimes a name suddenly doesn't fit anymore. And of course names are all kind of even what we would call normal names. They're all weighed down with kind of certain kind of class assumptions, I guess, and regional elements and stuff. So even the normal name says so much, doesn't it so? 16:58 - Julia Golding (Host) yeah, name says so much, doesn't it? So, yeah, I would say that sometimes my names have a lot of purpose, sometimes they just feel right and they can change depending on how the character develops. Yeah, one of my early fantasy books for the same sort of middle grade teen area was called the glass swallow and I decided in that that, um, this area I was writing about children are named after something that happens at their birth. So the main character is called Rain because it was raining and of course I thought, oh, that's a nice idea. But what then happened was every time I came to name somebody in that world, I had to think what was happening when they were born. So immediately I got a backstory what was happening when they were born. So immediately. 17:34 - Darren Simpson (Guest) I got a backstory. 17:35 - Julia Golding (Host) You know it was peace. Maybe they just had after a war peace had been made or something happened. 17:42 Or sorrow maybe someone had died, you know. So I know there are cultures where my sister-in-law is from Ghana and there's an element of this in the naming of children there in her sort of family culture. So I've probably picked it up from her, but it really worked as a way of prompting a backstory connection to what was going on, having just spent the summer writing. One is that there's a site very practical about not having the same starting letter for main characters. 18:20 - Darren Simpson (Guest) True. 18:20 - Julia Golding (Host) Because the way people read is you do it quite often people read by whole word recognition Mm-hmm. So you might be able to get away with Harry and Hermione, because Hermione is so much longer than Harry. 18:33 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes. 18:34 - Julia Golding (Host) But ideally you wouldn't do Harry, ron and Hermione, because Hermione is so much longer than Harry. Yes, but ideally you wouldn't do Harry Ron, hermione. You do Harry, ron and something beginning with another letter. 18:42 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah. 18:44 - Julia Golding (Host) That's not very Hogwarts name, is it, linda? Maybe that would have been quite good for Hermione, because she was a daughter of dentists, anyway, so there are some practical things about how you choose to name. 18:57 - Darren Simpson (Guest) That's very true. Yeah, I remember an unpublished book I wrote was called the two main characters. There was an imaginary character being imagined by the main character called Bongo the Bongo kid, and the main character had a name like I think it was Billy or something like that, and test readers point out it gets a bit annoying when you get a similar sound going over and over again, because they're two similar names. 19:21 So, you're right, there are as much as we can sort of follow certain instincts. There are but yeah, you're right, very practical considerations. But I love the idea of that in the glass swallow. That's a beautiful idea. 19:30 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah Well, it's not original to me. There are cultures around the world that do it. 19:37 - Darren Simpson (Guest) So you're free to. 19:38 - Julia Golding (Host) you know, nab, that one. I was also wanting to ask you about the balance of cruelty and courage in the book, because, well, not many of these adults come out well, because they're planning to sacrifice someone. 19:50 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes. 19:51 - Julia Golding (Host) You know, it's a wicker man world thinking of that film by someone. It's a Wicker man world thinking of that film. But I think Gorse too is ambivalent, because he isn't finding it easy to make this choice. 20:02 It's the kind of choice that you might have to make in a horrible war like living in Germany during the Second World War or something it's that sort of feel of there is really very limited scope for good decisions, and it made me wonder about where good and evil resides in your world. Were you thinking that the sort of predominant so we've got a river, that is some sort of entity, but are you thinking that it's an entity which is made by the people's belief in it, or is there some external sense of, as you often get in folklore, some kind of spiritual forces outside the village? I suppose that would decide where the standards of good and evil reside. It's a complex question, but these are some of the most interesting things about inventing a fantasy world with new forms of faith and religious practices or folk practices. So where did you land on that one? 21:07 - Darren Simpson (Guest) um, so yeah, I mean in terms of, I mean the river in this story it's um, the river literally, literally is, has an awareness and it has a hunger, and it's a real thing and as much as it's kind of, I guess, the one of the main antagonists of the story it is a natural thing that simply wants to survive, just like any natural thing that's alive, I guess. 21:24 So, as much as it kind of does quite sinister things throughout the story to kind of do together what it wants, the agency is ultimately with the human element, I would say the kind of human drama element. So, in terms of it's interesting you mentioned the Wicker man. I guess that's going to come up quite a lot during um, as I talk about this book in future and I think from I remember the island and the wicker man, the all the locals who know what really goes on there. They're kind of they're fine with it and they're like almost gleeful. It's quite festival based, it's quite um. 21:58 The difference with mainsbury is that even though people are aware of it, they kind of never they're not happy about it, they don't enjoy it um, they are reluctant about it, they kind of try not to. It's like an unspoken truth that no one dares admit, no one does talk to. It makes them very uncomfortable and that's why there's a kind of very, very small group called the satyrs who are the ones who are responsible for doing this and they don't like doing it, although one of the satyrs does enjoy the hunt. He does enjoy the power this role gives him. So again, it's exploring different sort of human approaches to these kind of dilemmas we have. 22:29 And gorse, yeah, you're right, he is very ambivalent, because I mean, I couldn't figure out how you could not be, because he's he has to choose between killing a stranger or someone he loves dying, which is an impossible, and it's something that obviously people have been complicit with in his village for a long time. And the whole point, in goodness and badness, is that Gorse is the first out of many, many generations to finally do something about that ambivalence, to act upon it. And so you know, I'm sorry to be a spoiler, but he sort of ends up doing the right thing. He ends up taking a risk and doing the right thing? 23:00 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, I think, because people listening to this are going to be adults largely. If they're considering buying it for a younger reader, don't worry, they're not going to leave with the message that it's fine to go around murdering strangers. That is not where we land, but there is definitely a cruelty within the world and the natural world. Yes, there is definitely a cruelty within the world and the natural world. 23:21 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes. 23:21 - Julia Golding (Host) And also within some people, which is part of this folkloric driving, the folkloric background which takes us on to what I actually enjoyed the most, which is your walking dead. 23:34 - Darren Simpson (Guest) No, you're right, I have enough walking dead. 23:37 - Julia Golding (Host) Because they felt different and organic and spooky. Because they felt different and organic and spooky. So the zombie is the wrong word, because the zombie is actually from a particular sort of folkloric tradition or religious tradition, isn't it? But when I'm talking about the Walking Dead, I am talking about those that come back in a form. So join us for a little bit about what, what you felt they, what part they were playing, because there is, I can think of, at least two important ones yeah, so, um. 24:10 - Darren Simpson (Guest) So I mean that's in terms of the way that the as the reader will find out later in the novel that the way that a river, the river has to have developers find a certain way to, to take offerings for itself, to take offerings for itself, to take sacrifices for itself. So it does various things In the past. There can be accidents in the water, it can take a fisherman, that sort of thing, but in terms of getting on the land, it can't reach the land. So the method is kind of. I sort of see it as a sort of kind of like a corpse hydraulics. I describe it so, you know, if you imagine, the river bed is full of dead animals, dead bodies, previous sacrifices and stuff. So when the river needs to do its thing, if it needs to do that, then it basically can fill the corpse with itself rather than with the blood that would have been originally there. So, and whatever it needs, it can kind of dredge up and send onto the land. 25:00 So, yeah, there is a's a zombie-ish element in the sense that these are things I mean in the book. For example, there's a stag that appears in this kind of form and there's a fairly central character who comes back in this form as well. But yeah, you're right, it's not the sort of traditional kind of zombie, because these things haven't returned and been given life. They're simply filled with the river and they're being controlled their limbs, their organs, uh, so yeah, it's yeah, so it's not like a zombie book, but there's that parallel. But that's how the river works. It can basically fill, it's got this riverbed full of of things, of bodies, ready for using and, depending on its needs, it will take one and send it on land to either lure someone to tempt them, like the sirens of old, that sort of thing, or to use more violent, direct means. 25:40 - Julia Golding (Host) Whatever it needs, really yes, I suppose this leads me to thinking about, um, your magic system, because if one is writing a fantasy with a magic in it, um, you have to work out the limits of your magic, so that you've got like a magic budget that you spent within your rules, did you? Yours is quite a I would say quite a low level. People are doing spells, um, so it's, it's the river mainly, isn't it? It's the, the uncanny, the supernatural magic element in. Have I got that right in terms? 26:13 - Darren Simpson (Guest) of yeah, I'd say uncanny is a good word for I think yeah. So I mean, there's a obviously strong supernatural element, but this is sort of rather than being um, a very explicit, like, say, sort of spell-based magic system. It is more based on old folklore, I guess, and uh, kind of more ancient belief systems. 26:29 Um, overall, I'd say, if I could think of compared to one fantasy book, it would be like the earth sea books, I mean those are both words and spells which aren't in this book, but at the same time, from what I gathered of um the earth suit books, it's um very much based upon balance and kind of the tapestry of things and maintaining order and balance and that's very much what, how the, the kind of supernatural element in the world of thirst works. There is um always a balance and also it draws upon the idea of kind of underworlds and thin places, these kind of barriers, these memories between the world we know and then something more magical on the other side, and that's kind of where the power of the river comes. For example, a lot of beliefs around the world and a lot of folklore systems believe that water, for example, as something that is a bit contradictory, a bit complex. In fact, it's always different. You know, river is always different, it's always the same. This kind of idea of reflections, a lot of these tight um add up to the idea of rivers and water being something as a boundary. So, yeah, there's a, there's a kind of other world called elswald, that's referred to a couple times in the book, and that's kind of where the supernatural power comes from and it can be drawn up and it can be given offerings as well. So it's like a two-way exchange and there's a trickster element to it and sometimes it doesn't always do what people hope in the story. That happens in the story as well. 27:50 But I'd say overall, yeah, I, I mean again, I only recently read the earthly books. Actually, I've absolutely adored them and I loved the magic and I don't think it was a direct influence, but there are parallels in this idea of. I think this is a very organic, natural order of things and the magic system ties in with that. I would say, and you're right, I'm not keen on magic systems that are too loose, which is why I've kept some vagueness, because I like the sense of an unknowability to this kind of other world, to this power. But there are also very strict rules in terms of, for example, how to defeat the river, how to achieve certain things. 28:27 - Julia Golding (Host) There are specific rules that are set so that the characters kind of kind of deal within that boundary. I guess. Does that make sense? Yes, but you also have the message that you can break out of patterns which are destructive absolutely yeah, which is one of the key things about the book. Again, we're not going to tell you the end, but the idea is that some of these practices have grown up to to feed this beast, to feed them um on, not not a pattern you want to bring on to the next generation. So absolutely. 28:51 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, absolutely in terms of um. I was talking earlier on about analogy, for example, in fantasy and um. I don't sort of I'm hoping it's fairly subtle and not too on the nose but this kind of fictional mainstream place where people have this complicity in something except tolerating sacrifices of others for their own benefit and for their own plenty. That's kind of the idea was partly. There are parallels to what goes on in our world. You know, when you think about kind of the way things work, how much even now when we're talking on a couple of laptops or the clothes I'm wearing, you know it's nothing we do on purpose. It's the system we're kind of born into and what we're used to. But these things all depend on kind of people being exploited elsewhere and we kind of either have to deal with that very uncomfortably or try and just turn a blind eye, or we can be active about it, and these are things I would never expect of anyone or make judgments about. But that kind of is the kind of dilemma. 29:39 - Julia Golding (Host) I hope the story has a parallel too, I guess yeah, there's a lovely discussion going back to tolkien and lewis, um, where they talk about the difference between an allegory and something which is applicable. So allegory is your one-on-one, um, like a political cartoon world. You know, so this parliament of fowls, going to the medieval version, is a parliament of people, and you know so you do that owl is that person, and so on. And parliament of birds, isn't it Parliament of fowls? Anyway, so that's a one-on-one thing. And they I think it was Tolkien said that's in the power of the author, whereas application is in the power of the reader. 30:28 If somebody reads your story and thinks oh, that's a bit like the dilemma that I'm facing over buying things from this online retailer or going on a long-haul flight or whatever it is. That is your particular thing. You're applying somebody else's book and they put that in there, perhaps knowingly, perhaps unknowingly, but they're not forcing you to take a moral from the story. So I've always found that a really helpful way of thinking through how a book can be engaging in the sort of world debates without being didactic. 31:04 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yes, exactly that's what I was thinking of, because I think often a bit of a temptation, especially when you're writing for younger readers, is to slip in sort of like a. I mean, a lot of my books do have messages and some of them are on the nose than others, but I do prefer it when you can have that message there as an almost just a possible thing for the reader to pick up on in their own way. And I do. Yeah, again, it's about not talking down to young readers, maybe just sort of planting ideas in subtler ways or things might resonate in ways they don't understand just yet, you know. So I think you're right, I do prefer giving messages in that sort of way. I think, yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. 31:40 - Julia Golding (Host) So let's talk about the actual process of writing. I know a few people some of the people listening to this will be trying to write their own novels. Did you have a relatively smooth sailing to being published, or was it many, many years of trying? How did it happen for you? 31:56 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, definitely wasn't a smooth sailing. So my first published book was Scavengers. I got a sort of crowdfunded sort of indie book before that as well, but very small scale um. But yeah, before I actually got published, um, by traditional publisher, I'd say I was going for nearly a decade. I think I wrote like three or four books that didn't make it anywhere. So it was a long journey. 32:17 Uh, and, and whenever I do school visits I try not to sort of that comes up, how long did this take you to get published? 32:23 And I try not to put young writers off or any writers off, because that sounds like a slog, it sounds like a lot of work. But at the same time, sometimes it can be a gift to have to go through that struggle, because I think, for example, when I wrote my first novel, if that got published I wouldn't quite know which author I was yet. I wouldn't really have my writer's voice settled down just yet. And so for me, yes, it was a long slog and I definitely was very close to giving up at times, but I learned so much on the way. There's nothing I would tell kind of writers who are trying to get published, everything, even you know every short story, every idea you have that doesn't work out. It's never a waste, it's always practice. It will always feed into what ultimately does become your first success. So yeah, for me it was definitely a long slog and hard at the time, but I'm glad on hindsight. 33:07 - Julia Golding (Host) And do you enjoy the process of working with an editor? 33:10 - Darren Simpson (Guest) I do. Yeah, I remember when I was much more young and a bit more I don't know I don't want the word bit uncompromising. I sort of not like the idea of someone meddling with my stuff. You know what I mean mean, which is a bit on hindsight, it's quite a young attitude, I think. 33:22 But now, having been through especially with, I mean it might be that I've been lucky. I've always had, I've only I've only I mean I'm fairly new to it so I've only had two editors so far in my experience, but they've both been editors who really get what I do and understand what I do and I think. So I mean it might be different if you have an editor who sees your book as being something else to what you imagine it being. But I've been lucky that we've always kind of clicked in that sense. So I've always enjoyed the editing experience a lot. I've never been afraid to sort of say if I disagree with something or I don't understand something. But basically so far in my experience my books have always been better for that kind of fresh set of experience. I mean I don't know how do you find it, that kind of fresh set of experience died. I mean, how do you find it? Has your view of that sort of thing changed, as you've kind of gone on? 34:03 - Julia Golding (Host) No, no, I've always, really, I always feel it's um, it's like I'm going to go back to cs lewis again. Um, there's that bit. It's meant in a completely different context, but there's a bit where eustace um turns into a dragon and um, he can't change himself back into a boy. He needs aslan to take the dragon skin off him. I often feel the editor and that's got religious sort of application. 34:28 But I'm thinking about it in terms of me as a writer, that actually sometimes I feel as though I'm stuck in my dragon skin and I need somebody to unpeel those layers which are getting in the way of the story should be it happens I find that I still sometimes can get a major edit, particularly if I'm starting um, the first novel in a new series, for example, and it gets less because then you anticipate what someone's going to say and do so you get less edited in a way, as it goes on. 35:02 But what makes me laugh is possibly because editors do have very sensitive flowers of authors. Always the letters are couched in this sort of. You know this is really good and you know, don't get offended if I tell you that it's not perfect. You know they don't quite put it like that, but that's the subtext is, please don't throw your toys out the pram. And I always want to say look, just tell me, tell me what you think, because I know that after I've had a think about what you're saying, you've often picked on things which I had in the back of my mind, weren't quite right, but thought no one would notice. Actually it's really helpful if you tell me so. I think it's great and it's a privilege. So these days the economics of getting published are really rubbish. It was much better when I started out, so a lot of the joys of editing are like free work on my books for me. 35:56 - Speaker 3 (None) I look at it like that. 35:58 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, because authors don't people out there. I'm afraid authors don't make a lot of money unless they happen to hit the big time with a big summer. But that's a different league. Most of us are just pottering along, piecing together. 36:12 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, and it's funny how that, um, that kind of idea of right is I mean, the amount of schools I go to and do when I do festive events or school visits, um, so many, well, not just, uh, younger readers a lot of adults often assume if you're a published writer you're rich. 36:24 It's still quite a kind of common cliche in people's minds and it probably hasn't been since maybe the, I don know maybe as far back as the 90s that a lot of publishers did very well for themselves. But now you know I still have a part-time job which I'm again feel very privileged to sort of have half my income come from writing, from doing what I love, and that took a long time to get there. But yeah, a lot of people do still assume that writers generally must be quite wealthy because their books are in shops, when and this doesn't apply just to books, obviously applies to the music industry it's just the way a lot of creative industries are going. But, um, which is sort of partially why you do have to do it, obviously not just for the money, right? 37:02 - Julia Golding (Host) yeah, yes, there were. I think partly it's because of the emptying out of the value particularly. I do a lot of adult publishing with harper collins in the download, predominantly they expect the book to go. Do a lot of adult publishing with harper collins in the download. Predominantly they expect the book to go as a download. So genre publishing, murder, mysteries, that kind of thing um and your, your books are being sold for on deals for 99 cents or 99p. 37:27 It's not even a cup of coffee yeah um, so you have to think how many, and that the author isn't getting 99p. The author is getting some fraction of a fraction that's right yeah so, um, you have to sell a lot of books to make. That add up to hundreds of pounds, let alone thousands of pounds. So, yes, you don't do it for that reason. 37:49 There there are people having said that, there are people, of course, who have the phenomenon book, which will pay the bills, which will then become a film, which will then become a stage play. Yes, that does happen, but if you're aspiring to be an author, don't give up the day job if you get a contract because it won't work like that um and you just have to really enjoy what you do. 38:17 - Darren Simpson (Guest) But yeah, I mean the same time bad story it's just a story yeah, yeah, and I mean, and I mean for me, like, obviously, um, I'd love to sort of um, have that sort of uh, stroke of luck at some point it sends me to do this full-time, and I don't know, I don't know a couple of writers who've done it, but at the same time, um, it's so, it's so rewarding in other ways. 38:37 It's just such an amazing. I mean, I and also a lot of income doesn't just come from that percentage of the percentage. Uh, you know, I do a lot of school visits and that kind of like kind of helps pay the bills and stuff. So there's there's kind of a much more holistic picture to kind of what you can do and earn as an author and also just like sounds cheesy, but to be able to have these stories in your head and share them and then have people respond to them and, uh, whether it responds positively or negatively, just just the idea of sharing them, these books coming alive in other people's heads, uh, it's um, it's just, it's still. I still feel very lucky when I wake up every day and remember that I get to do that. 39:10 - Julia Golding (Host) Exactly, that's why we do it, yeah, Okay, so where we always land is we try and think of where in all the fantasy worlds by which we mean it can be a computer game, it can be a film, it can be a novel series where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place to be something? And I was thinking about your Walking Dead, your revenants, your zombie returnees, and there is quite a literature out there but where do you think would be a good place to be a Walking Dead zombie type character? You don't have to be a good guy, you could have a great time as a bad guy in this world. But where would you think would be a fun place? 39:51 - Darren Simpson (Guest) So like a water-powered uh undead creature, you can be your own type if you want. 39:57 - Julia Golding (Host) Or you can just say I like the world of um. When I was thinking, this is the garth nix, um sabriel, uh, there's a trilogy. Garth Nix is an Australian writer, if you come across him, but that's all about death and putting creatures back to sleep again. So that's a great world for the revenants. 40:25 Sabriel, liriel and Abhorsen are the three. Liriel, I think, is all about a central library, but sabriel is a necromancer and she's charged with returning the dead spirits back to sort of the layers it's like a layers of gates to hell or not, underworld like an underworld type thing. Yeah um, they're great books. I think you'd really enjoy them yeah, I do. 40:52 - Darren Simpson (Guest) I do love garth nicks. Um, yeah, I'll have to check that out. Um, I'm just thinking as well where, where I of other worlds I could put my um kind of uh, my hydronic corpses. I think um. One film I saw a little while back is the cinemas recently. 41:06 - Julia Golding (Host) I guess it's not a fantasy world as such, but if we can, it doesn't matter if you've got a fan, because once your guys get there, it turns fantasy oh okay, yeah, that's true I'm thinking about, I thought like 28 years later recently in the cinema, the uh, the danny boyle film and I think that struck me. 41:20 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Um, obviously that's that's proper zombies in that kind of series of stories in those movies. But the, the most recent film, it's got again that quite strong focus feel. It's a kind of island-based small community where they survived and it's all gone a bit yeah, rustic. So it's like kind of, yeah, rustic, folkloric community plus zombies. So I think if I place one of my guys there they'd be quite at home perhaps. 41:45 - Julia Golding (Host) They'd be fine this is great. 41:48 - Darren Simpson (Guest) They'd be pretty chilled out, pretty nice. 41:50 - Julia Golding (Host) Yeah, okay, so they're 28 years later. Yes, that's got Ralph Fiennes in, hasn't it that film? It has, yeah, the film person. 41:59 - Darren Simpson (Guest) Yeah, I think he yeah quite a quirky role as well, but I think I get the impression he played quite a bit of relish. 42:06 - Julia Golding (Host) But, yeah, he's very good in that, very good in that. Thank you so much, Darren, and all the best with the launch of this book, and I hope it goes swimmingly. 42:16 - Speaker 3 (None) Ah well, thank you so much for having me, Julia, it's been a lot of fun, thank you. Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit oxfordcentreforfantasy.org to join in the fun. 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