Transcript
[0:00] Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm an author but I also run the activities of our centre. And today I am joined from the Bay Area in the US by a wonderful new writer, or new to me, we'll hear more how long she's been in the writing game um but that is hayley dennings and i have here to share with you a wonderful um you see look at this production values of her new book this ravenous fate so hayley as a way of introducing yourself to us all and you want to tell us about what were your favorite fantasy reads as you were growing up yeah so first of all thank you so much for having me it's really exciting it's been lovely getting to meet you and getting to know you for my favorite fantasy works growing up I read so much but I think definitely one of the more formative series when I was like really little were the warriors cats books which I guess like I don't know if you would consider them technically fantasy like yeah they're like really yeah yeah but I just I loved like the kind of world building and like the clan dynamics there so those were.
[1:18] Definitely my first like introduction to fantasy and then I think The Hunger Games like really got me into like the sci-fi fantasy space so I realized like how much you could do with like you know incorporating like social issues and interesting commentary and that book has I feel like it's timeless like I still love it so much and obviously she's still expanding on the world but yeah those are definitely my favorites but there's so many I feel like I could walk forever no but that's that's really helpful because you're obviously from a younger generation, and i remember the hungry games when it came out but as a book more that my children were reading and of course the follow-on with the films which took a slightly different track to the books didn't they i think as is one of these things are you a fan of the film series or did you are you a book purist.
[2:07] I really, really like the films as well. I think especially like Catching Fire, I think I feel like everyone thinks that that's like the best book to movie adaptations. It's just so good. But I mean, yeah, the books are still my favorite. But I remember like being so excited when I was in middle school, I was like counting down the days for when the first movie came out. And it still is like they're great to watch now. So I love both. fantastic so that's covered my second question which is really about what books had influence on you and it sounds as though the hunger games has been your sort of i know your totemic uh book that you keep coming back to for me that's the kind of tolkien is that for me um so tell us how you managed to get published because that is no easy feat um so what was the path that you took um I've had the benefit of reading your acknowledgements at the end so I've got an idea but perhaps you'd like to share with us how your journey from the first idea to actually having your book out there yeah so I feel like my journey was like traditional but like a little not traditional because I obviously I've like been online in these online spaces like Like being a bookish influencer, I guess some people would say like, I really just got on there and I just love to talk about my favorite books. So I don't even like see myself as that.
[3:32] But yeah, so I just, I feel like I kind of built a community and just one day I decided I really wanted to get into the writing community specifically.
[3:40] And that's where I found like so many other writers. I learned that like this is where people, you know, learn about like agents and different publishers. And I've been wanting, like, it's always been my dream to be a published author. there. So I feel like I probably know more than like the average person who like, isn't, you know, trying to achieve this goal. But yeah, so like, definitely like joining Twitter was really helpful. I remember like the first day that I tweeted about my idea for this Robinist Fae, my agent now like she liked my tweet. And I remember like freaking out because I had just watched an interview with her like a few weeks before and I was like, that's my dream agent. I was like, I need her to work with me because she's amazing. And then she like knew about me. And I was like, that's crazy. And so yeah, I just continued to like talk about my journey on Twitter. And I got like a lot of interest from editors and agents, there would be some who like messaged me asking to like read my book before I was even done with it. And I was like, Oh, this is just like a real thing. Because at this point, The Travenous Fate was the fifth book that I had written. So I was like okay I think this time I actually need to like try to get this one published all my friends are like you need to stop stalling like this is the one and all the interest from the professionals like in the industry I was like hey yeah it's real so.
[5:02] I did that. And then one of my mentors and friends, Jen Ferguson, she messaged me about this opportunity with We Need Diverse Books. It's like a revision workshop for Black creatives. And I applied for that and I got in. So I spent like the summer revising my book. And at this point, there was like a couple agents who were like waiting to read my book. And I was like, oh my God, the pressure is on. Like, I actually need to make this book good. and I need to actually get it out there one day. And I decided to participate in a Twitter pitch competition called DV Pit. And that's, I think, when I got the most interest and when people were really excited and it felt really real. And then a little bit after that, I queried, got my agent, and then we went on sub, got my book deal. So yes, it was like a long time.
[6:00] Long process, but also people can be on sub or in the query trenches for a long time.
[6:05] So I'm really lucky that for me, it did not last that long. And I think honestly, I just tried to use like a lot of the resources I had at hand, like social media and like being able to show publishers and agents that there were people interested in my book definitely really helped, but it was a a long process like that was my fifth book for a long time I didn't think that it was going to happen because the book right before then I tried to send it to a revision workshop and it was rejected and I was like well maybe I'm just not meant to be a writer like maybe this is not for me and then the book I decided to write after that was This Robin is Fate and now it's coming out in two weeks so it all worked out and congratulations brilliant um thank you for time this is broadcast I think your book will be out so that will be you'll be able to if you're listening to this you don't have to wait two weeks you'll be able to get it now which i strongly encourage you to do so um it was interesting listening to you talking about having written four other books first uh i've just been recommending uh the neil guyman talk he gave the tolkien at 50 um talk at oxford just recently um.
[7:15] In the summer, and he quoted Ray Bradbury, the science fiction writer, saying, every writer has a million bad words to get out of them before they're ready to be published. I don't know if that's strictly true, but it's quite a nice thought for those of you who have been around this circle of being rejected, that actually maybe that's just some of your million, that you need to get out your system before you get the book that has the excitement around it. Okay, so tell us a little about this wonderful idea you've had, this ravenous fate.
[7:51] It's a bit like your elevator pitch, but tell us what we would be reading if we pick it up or listen to it or however we have our books these days. Yeah, so I call this Robin is Fate, my sapphic vampire book, because it follows a vampire and a vampire hunter in 1920s Harlem who are forced to work together to solve a mysterious string of murders that might be connected to a cure for vampirism, which in the book, I call it reaperhood. They're called Reapers. And yeah, young adult historical fantasy, lots of blood and intrigue and crime and yearning because the main characters are childhood friends that turned into enemies and now must grapple with all the shared history between them while having to work together to defeat a greater evil. So it's a lot. It's dark, but full to the brim of like a lot of Black history that I think is really important to kind of resurface. Because the main reason I wrote this book was because I felt like there are a lot of parts of our history that are kind of brushed over. And the Harlem Renaissance was one of those things, hugely like celebrated time period where Blackness was really celebrated.
[9:06] And I feel like a lot of times when Black history is brought up or taught, at least like in my classrooms where I went to school, it was always a focus on our trauma. So I've always been really fascinated with the Harlem Renaissance and how it's like a celebration of Blackness. And, you know, but I still obviously when writing the book wanted to be honest to, you know, everything going on during that time. But it was really fun to get to explore or the fun parts of, you know, the expansion of the culture and all the things that black people were accomplishing. So, yeah, that's my long pitch. No, no, that's great. I don't know much about the Harlem Renaissance other than the occasional film.
[9:48] Particularly recently, there's been a few films about that period, but a lot of it was new to me. So it was great to read. Thank you. But picking up on the theme of blackness, the first thing that struck me is your dedication, where you dedicate it to black girls, you are enough. And I love that. Of course you are. You're more than, you know, you're exactly, I don't want any, that's just wonderful dedication. I loved it. But it made me think about your choice to have all the main characters from within the black community in Harlem. Um am i right in connecting the dedication to that choice because i can imagine a world of like central casting or publishers saying well it's all very well having these strong black characters but let's also include for diversity you know um a white character or a.
[10:40] Asian character a main character because you do have these characters there but not as the main characters am i right that there is a connection between this enough to be these characters from this world you don't have to do a sort of social engineering of balance.
[10:57] Yeah yeah no definitely I think like it's interesting my dedication I like thought really long and hard about it for a long time because I was like this is my first book and I want it to obviously be something meaningful so I was like I need to do something like really artsy or whatever and then I was like no what is the main message that I want for this book it's that I want people who look like me, like when I was younger, and I didn't have books that had people who look like me in them, I want them to know that their stories matter.
[11:24] And you know, they are heard, they're seen, and you know, they're loved. So that definitely was a large part of it. And I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned that, because like, growing up, when I first started writing, I didn't write about Black people or Black girls, I wrote about white characters, because I didn't know that I could write about Black people because all the books that were around me, like at my school, my libraries, like they had people that didn't look like me. So I didn't know it was possible for someone who looked like me to be a hero or like even the villain or like any part of the story. So that was really important to me whenever I set out and I actually started writing my own books. My mom, like one day, I think she read one of my stories when I was younger and she was like, why don't we write a Black girl? And I was like, I didn't know I could do that. So that changed my life. And then you've been one step further, though, because there was a stage, particularly if you look back at Hollywood films, there was the stage, the cringy stage of The Black Best Friend.
[12:23] You know the sort of um we the awareness was growing in the casting people that you needed to include a more diverse but it ended up being we can't make it the main character we'll make it the best friend uh so high school musical for example um is a sort of classic example of that uh but you've just said right let's not in the same way as we read books which might have a kind of all white cast like the original version of the harry potter stories um you think fine that's that's how it is and in your in your way you're also normalizing the fact that you don't have to you can get past that of course there is a theme of blackness in it but it's just they're just the characters right yeah yeah exactly past the labels um they're wonderful wonderful characters so thank you for doing that it was great um also we should mention that um the the The other sort of marginalized, coming more into the center sort of theme is that of a same-sex attraction. Because your two characters are both women, both girls. So I'm imagining it's important to you that you see more stories to allow people to think of same-sex attraction stories. Is that right? Where did that come from?
[13:39] 100%. Honestly, I just like, even like from my own identity to just queerness is a big part of my life. And I think that I feel like a lot of times in publishing, they usually allow like one marginalization. They're like, you can be black, or you can be gay. But like, if you're both, that's too much. But so for this book, I was just like, no, I want to tell a story that feels the most real and natural to me. And like, there are a lot of different components to this for me. But like, at the heart of the story, I was like, it's two girls who have like a really intense relationship. And so I always knew it was going to be between them because it was kind of based on like feelings that I had surrounding my own friendship breakup, which as I've like been in this community and like been promoting my book and talking about a friendship breakup, I've I've realized I'm like, this is like a really big thing in queer, specifically sapphic communities where they have like an intense relationship with their friend. And then, you know, the feelings are a bit confusing, especially when you're younger. And so that's like really interesting for me to get to explore, especially for like a younger audience where feelings and emotions are so big. And like even the littlest things that happen feel like it's the end of the world. And then I think also like specifically for like vampire literature, Carmilla is one of the first like well-known vampire books. And that book is supposed to be like a warning against homosexuality and specifically like lesbians.
[15:06] The vampire is seen as a monster who's like tempting the main character and corrupting her. And so getting to write this book, that's kind of like a response to that and saying that that's not the case. And it's okay if you're queer and you're different, it doesn't make you a monster, but it's also really important to me as well. So yeah, just getting to write that and like feel completely free and like you said like normalizing it so it's not you know just someone picks up this book and it's like this is like a black lesbian book like I can read it for a diversity or whatever no like this is just a book that anyone can read and just like have fun with and see themselves in I kind of was I sort of wondered if I even should ask these of these questions because I was thinking I so much more I read about vampirism really and intense friendships but i thought the identity thing is is there and i thought well i need to ask you it's a bit like you know otherwise it would be odd but i do want to stress that um in case someone listening to this has got the wrong end of the stick um being a vampire isn't equated to being queer at all it's just that that friend has fallen with to this reaperdom um it's nothing it's not to do with her sexual identity it's just this other uh that's she could have been anything um yeah Yeah,
[16:23] I don't want to make people think that there's a connection there. Right, so let's turn to Vampire Story, which is great fun. So...
[16:35] This cuts across the racial tensions of the era because anyone become a reaper.
[16:43] And let's think more about your characterization of the interwar jazz era. Can you just talk a little bit more about what you like about the vampire presence in that era? Because it seems to be a really good fit because of all the sort of like the seediness and the speakeasies. And anyway, over to you because you're the author of this.
[17:05] Yeah no I love that question all these questions have been so good but I mean I just like you said I think it just fit the aesthetic very well and when I was like doing research on the Harlem Renaissance and the 1920s so many like so much of the time one of the lines that like stuck out to me a lot is like this is one of the most morally corrupt periods of U.S. History and I was like yeah like this is so fascinating there's so much like bad stuff going on in the shadows and like still things that like the government is trying to hide and that you know people don't want to teach kids about in history class and so that was really interesting to me I really wanted to lean into the darkness aspect so I thought it would be cool to kind of have these like contrasting aesthetics of like the glitz and the glamour but then also like kind of the blood and the shadows that are kind of you know lurking amongst all that decadence and so vampires definitely fit into that because I think vampires, like when you look at them, like they look pretty human, at least like some of them, you know, depending on the lore that you believe in. But then like you get to know them or like you look closely or you let them bring you into the shadows and they turn out to be something incredibly dangerous and, you know.
[18:21] Violent. And I thought it was like a really interesting imagery and like a theme to follow because I think like for so much of US history specifically, the US has tried to like make itself seem like it's this great place of dreams where people can come and like achieve all their dreams and be successful and like be happy. But there are all these things that they kind of like brush under the rug, these terrible, terrible things that they've done to like marginalized communities.
[18:48] And I just thought, like, I want to tell that story where it's honest about, you know, how great the U.S. Seems on the outside, but then when you really get into it, there are a lot of terrible things lurking beneath.
[19:01] And I feel like the Harlem Renaissance is perfect for that because, yeah, there's this great migration where Black people are going to the North to, like, get a better life for themselves. But, like, that's not an easy fix. Like, they're still having these struggles they are so left out and having to you know make a lot of sacrifices to even make a living and so yeah I think it just like fit the aesthetic perfectly and I saw someone else online talking about how like the rise in vampire fiction is kind of correlated with the I guess like like our state of like how we feel nowadays with like the economic decline and just overall like how things are kind of terrible in the world and I was like yeah that's really interesting because I think horror as a genre has always been a really great way to reflect how society is feeling. And so, yeah, getting to dive into that with vampires, using that as a way to
[19:53] kind of depict this like hidden aspect of U.S. History and, you know, how it spreads kind of like a poison, like anti-Black racism in U.S. and intergenerational trauma within Black communities. I feel like it was just the perfect way to explore that. I think monsters in general and immortality, the great way to look at humanity through a new lens that kind of reveals these new aspects.
[20:22] Yeah. Because if you think about what the, well, I mean, obviously the vampire is an old, an old, old story, but when it started coming into literature, it started around at the time of Byron. And there was a feeling of the gentleman vampire at that stage. And it's associated with feudalism. And then you go on to the Bram Stoker version of Dracula. So it's looking at a sort of fear of women, the vampire brides. It's the fear of sexuality, in a way.
[20:57] So the sort of unbridled passion of the vampire. Vampire in a way our modern vampires are relatively tidied up in the sort of vampire fiction that you get in christina and all that so they seem quite good guys uh well they very often they split them into two sorts there's the kind of sexy ones who are not devolved and there's the devolving sort so there's this sense of the breakdown of the human body quite often uh it's fascinating the number of different as you say we keep reinventing the vampire and loading onto it all sorts of stuff thinking about the historical moment you've said some fascinating things already about the jazz era but i was wondering were there any specific historical figures who lie behind some of your characters that perhaps we don't particularly meet here in the uk people we wouldn't have heard of that are ones you want to acknowledge or um point us to to find more out about after this uh there honestly is i.
[22:01] Didn't really base any of my characters off of real people and this is kind of where it got hard for me doing the historical part because obviously i wanted to like remain true to history but at the same time it's like fantasy and there's a lot of stuff happening that didn't actually happen and i kind of struggled with knowing like how to balance but all of my characters are like very original like Leah and Elise are their own people I would say probably like the.
[22:30] Like Steven is more so based on, you know, the rich, like socialites at the time, no one really specific, but then also like for the politicians, I did try to do more research on like the political state at the time and like what people were valuing. And so, yeah, a lot of that, I didn't really base anyone on real historical figures just because I'm like so specific about my characters. And I was like I don't want to like get anything crossed here but there's definitely some I don't know maybe some of the singers or whatever at the period I had a Billie Holiday soundtrack in my head I don't know if that's a bit late but that's what was yeah no there's, yeah there I mean there are definitely like some I guess you would call them like cameos for some characters like more in the background like Alan Locke I think he was mentioned if If the line wasn't cut, I don't remember if it was. And then there's like some descriptions of like jazz music for a singer. I don't know why I'm like blanking on what her name is, but there's like a whole like line about like her singing and it's like Layla's walking past a club where she's supposed to be performing.
[23:41] And then there are lines about like writers being in the background, like, you know, picking up on the gossip, writing down inspiration for stories was supposed to be a call out to like Zora Neale Hurston so yeah there's definitely some references there but I don't know I think like I'm so weird with historical because I'm like I I have like more of a focus on the places I think than the actual people and so I more so wanted to focus on like the contributions that the people made and like how I could incorporate that and like their movements into the story rather than like the people themselves but there's definitely like some inspiration there of course because they have huge influence over the time period but yeah really love that question yeah so um the cotton club i've heard of as a name and is that am i right in thinking that's a real place yeah good good i was just slightly worried i was uneducated about the harlem renaissance i'm trying to get my facts right okay so um i was going to say i just wanted to point out what amazing prose writer you are because when i first picked up this.
[24:45] Book um it's got some cover quotes which wouldn't immediately entice me into it because i'm slightly squeak well squeamish i am not slightly so things that say sweetly vicious i think oh well my delicate sensibilities be able to cope and i totally did cope because um you just write so beautifully and have you had some creative writing training or is this just because you read a lot and you've absorbed and developed your own style tell us a little bit about how you you write and your approach to style, your voice, I suppose.
[25:18] Well, first of all, thank you. That's very nice. And like, I don't know, whenever I see people compliment my prose, I'm always kind of shocked because I feel like that's not one of my strengths.
[25:28] It is. So it's been, it's, thank you. It's been amazing hearing that feedback. And honestly, yeah, I think it's just because I read a lot because like, I have a lot of, I love like beautiful prose. So I tend to gravitate more towards writers and books that have that. And I love to like study them. I love poetry. So that's another thing that I think would definitely have influenced my writing. I was an English major, English and French major in college. And I've like English has always been my favorite subject. I wanted to do creative writing, but they like didn't have that at my school. So I couldn't really do it. So I don't know if I was like specifically trained in creative writing, more so like literature analysis and stuff like that. But I would say that absolutely helped me as well. Like reading outside of the usual genres that I read and like learning the various different types of like writing sentence structure, all of that has influenced me a lot. And like, as for my writing process, I just...
[26:29] I don't know. I'm very much a plotter. So I have to have everything planned out. When I first came up with the idea for this book, I think one of the first things that came to me was the ending for the entire duology. So I've always known how the story is going to conclude. And that definitely helps me write everything going out to there, figuring out the theme that I want running through the whole story, and also how I want my prose to fit the setting. And I think specifically for this book, I was like, this time and aesthetic is so specific. So I feel like my prose needs to match that in a way. And I remember I read Jazz by Toni Morrison, and she talked about having a similar thought and how she wanted her writing style to be reminiscent of the energy of the time. And I was like, I don't know how she succeeded in doing that. Obviously, Toni Morrison, the mind of a mastermind. But yeah, again, that's what I do for my writing is I feel like I have to read really far and like do all this research and like really understand how I want the full like style and like, like emotions and vibes of the book to come out because it really is like more than just the pitch and the aesthetic, but it's really down to like, the specific word you use. And so yeah, that really is my process.
[27:48] But I am am also a perfectionist. So in edits, I'm constantly tweaking things and trying to make sure that it reads right. So I'm glad that you found it to be really nice and that other people do as well, because that tells me that I did a good enough job. You certainly did. And I agree about the perfectionism. I have that. I just did the very last round of edits on a book that's coming out in October. And I was looking back at my email and I'm talking about the placement of a comma in one line I'm thinking they'll be getting that thinking gosh she's so you know, Go away. But anyway, it mattered to me. So I thought I'd mention it.
[28:31] So do you have, oh, I should ask you before I ask you for your fantasy tip, but you mentioned it's a duology. Have you finished part two? And is there a publication date for part two?
[28:41] Yeah, we don't have the exact date yet. I've written the first draft and I'm
[28:46] currently doing my edits.
[28:48] We're aiming for an August 2025 release. Least so I guess as long as I can finish these edits on time hopefully that'll still be the case but yeah book two is a lot it's very hard like I've talked to a lot of writers and they're all like book two is the worst like you're gonna have the worst time and I was like no it's fine it's just a sequel like I'm just continuing what I already have no it's it's been really hard but it is a lot of fun kind of bittersweet because obviously I have to say goodbye to these characters but I don't know I think duologies are so perfect in like length and like story arcs so it's been really cool and like a fun challenge getting to really test my skills and how I can make sure these characters are developed their relationships are developed and that I give everyone an ending that is worthy and good so it's been a lot but I'm getting through it well that sounds great I look forward to part two so going back to what I mentioned about a fantasy tip and this could be something you've read something you've watched or just something that came to you whilst you were writing your own fantasy something you think would help an aspiring writer yeah i picked up a few tips along the way like read tony morrison uh yes i mean i'm hoping people are making notes but is there anything else that perhaps you've watched recently or read recently that made you look again at your own writing?
[30:17] Yeah, honestly, I think the number one thing that's helped me is going outside of writing and studying story structures of other stories that you really, really love and just understanding what they do and why it works for you. So for me, Arcane on Netflix is, I think, probably the most brilliant show ever. And anytime I see any part of it, And I'm just constantly inspired by, you know, the way that they've laid everything out. And like the next season is coming out. Literally just the trailer is a piece of art. So I think like, I don't know, whenever people say like, you should read a lot. Yes, I agree. Like read Toni Morrison. I think everyone should read Toni Morrison because she's brilliant. But I think it's also important to get into other mediums because there's so many different ways to tell a story. And if you like, you can learn a lot from other genres. I always say that horror and horror tropes are so...
[31:16] Fascinating and smart in the way that they depict are able to depict certain themes and issues and so I always kind of slip like little horror things into my books like no matter well not like a romance book but like my fantasy books for sure have like a lot of horror aspects and I'm aware that like not everyone's going to want to do that but I think just looking at the way that they use certain like genre conventions or tropes is really really helpful so that's always my number one tip, read broadly and widely, but also like, don't be afraid to take time to like watch stuff as well. Like animated things, TV shows, movies, also like listen to music, read poetry. That's like my number one thing I would say, poetry and other genres outside of what you're writing for sure.
[32:03] Thank you. That's a great tip. Right. So just a little bit of fantasy imagination now. We always end with where in all the fantasy world is the best place for something. And we've We've covered quite a few, you know, best wood, best tavern, best library and so on. And I thought it'd be quite fun to choose any fantasy universe where you have something of an underground club, like a speakeasy. And it doesn't actually have to exist already in that fantasy world, but you can just like, I don't remember there being one in Wind in the Willows, but let's, you know, we could put one in there just for the fun of it.
[32:40] Where would you like to open up your speakeasy? and throw open the doors for people to come in.
[32:47] I love this question. And I feel like I have two different answers. Well, we can talk just for two. Yeah, okay. All right. So first I want to say like the world of Arcane because I think especially the undercity like Zaun, they kind of have stuff like a speakeasy, but that's why I think it would be very fitting. You know, people can walk in and there's like a lot of corrupt, crazy stuff going on and I think it would be very fitting. But then I also want to say something in the world of like Spirited Away, which I know like the aesthetics aren't the same, but I think that's why it's so fascinating because maybe if I opened up a speakeasy there.
[33:26] People would for once, at least in my world, have a break and be able to relax. I think the world of Spirited Away is very beautiful and it would be so interesting to like see the contrast of like a speakeasy versus like the spirit world and Spirited Away and all the creatures that are.
[33:43] Frequenting those so yeah that's my answer I really love Spirited Away just because they're so different all the creatures and the sort of the quietness of some of the moments like when she's sitting on the bus or train whatever it is I just love that yeah it's got a real poetry to it I think um I would open my speakeasy in um Alice's Wonderland uh I mentioned this to you in advance because i think that most of alice happens during the daytime and everyone needs somewhere to go at night and i think having all those characters like the mad hatter he seems he'd fit right in at the bar he wouldn't leave he wouldn't go back to his tea party uh and the the hair and the doormat in fact they feel like customers already i can just sort of yeah and you could get the.
[34:36] Duchess or the red queen singing at the being her diva yeah no i think that'd be great fun so my speakeasy is in alice in wonderland well i'd love to see that now that sounds amazing yeah thank you so much hayley and we look forward to reading well this ravenous fate is out now by the time this broadcast goes out but also we look forward to part two has that got a title, what's part two called it does but i don't think i'm allowed to share it oh to be to be confirmed, part two but it's written so we know you don't have to worry that it won't ever complete so it's it's on its way thank you very much and thank you for joining us on myth makers, thank you for having me i had the best time and it was lovely getting to talk to you and yeah I'm excited.
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