Casting, Colbert and Contracts: Big News of Lotr Films and the Best Way to Get a Book Contract

Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creators brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and today I am joined by the podcast very good friend Jacob who is sitting over in Seattle, aren't you? Jacob Renica, I'm sitting over in Seattle. So we have the Atlantic between us and quite a few time zones but we've managed to get together because we wanted to talk about three things really. One thing is there has just been news on some of the casting decisions that are going on in this Andy Circus directed film The Hunt for Gollum. Then we also wanted to catch up with each other and with you about the possibility of this Stephen Colbert penned other Lord of the Rings film and finally because I'm launching into again publishing a fantasy book and Jacob is also a writer. We thought we would just give you a few pointers about how you get from an idea to actually getting a book out there in the world but we'll leave that at the end. So basically we've got three things to talk about today. Anyway welcome Jacob and shall we start with the casting news? How closely have you been following the news coming out of New Zealand on this film? Somewhat I haven't refreshed my browser every five minutes as perhaps I should have but yeah so just generally speaking I got other fish to fry but yeah but definitely with the I think it became more on my radar after the surprise announcement of the Colbert film when Peter Jackson was giving his update on Hunt for Gollum and I thought there was going to be a Hunt for Gollum update with the casting perhaps but then instead they provided something different but here's the casting here's the here's the Hunt for Gollum more significant update that everyone thought was coming. We have talked about this film before and the the challenges it has of being a prequel with having to colour between certain lines and the lack of freedom of what they can do and one is the clues that we get as people trying to sort of guess what's going to happen and what kind of film they're going for is to see what kind of people they are casting. Now the original sway was we thought they were going to perhaps because we knew that Ian McKellen was going back and we heard that Elijah Wood was going back and for a while Vigo Mortensen's name was attached to the project obviously Andy circuses back playing Gollum though as a CGI character that's a completely different you know set of criteria but when Vigo dropped out then there was a gap and for a while a actor called Leo Woodle was attached to that role and it turns out that's wrong they've actually announced quite a fascinating casting which is Jamie Dawnan. Now if you only know Jamie Dawnan as the tortured, worried, sexually sort of strange protagonist in the 50 shades films who are not doing him justice because actually he's a brilliant Northern Irish actor he was in the Kenneth Branagh film Belfast he's been on in films and TV in the UK a lot. He is an actor of great range and seriousness and he's also incredibly good looking. So delete from your mind, what's the name of that character? Christian Gray, there we go, delete from your mind that and now sort of think about him in his more Celtic Irish roots which I think Vigo Mortensen drew so much on his own background as a sort of European mix. I think Jamie Dawnan's got that sort of authenticity to him that he can bring to the role. So I actually think it's a really good casting and I'm very excited to see what he might do with it. If I could put it like this, I think he has that potential lyrical soulfulness that actually made Vigo's performance so fascinating. The idea that this person could have lived a long time and knew all these stories for a man obviously. We're not judging by elves, we're judging by men. So I think that's I'm actually very happy. When we were talking before we started after recording, you weren't really familiar with him, but do you feel a little reassured by what I've just said? But what you've just told me, yeah. Yeah. I trust you. And so yeah, after the performance is if it's as long as somebody can capture like what Vigo I thought brought to the role wasn't you know a, we think like a swashbuckling strider, but something that you said like was more soulful something you can sing as well, right? That you can believe is like a gentle like a benevolent could it could be a benevolent ruler and not like a media action hero. So that's yeah, as long as as long as you can keep that like you said like kind of like a poetic lilt to those lines, the sparse lines, I think I'm willing to give him a chance. Yes, if you want to sort of familiarize yourself with him, he does crop up on track shows in the UK like the Graham Norton show. So if you just look at how he presents himself there, you'll see that he's he's quite shy. And I always felt that the Christian Grey role he was really quite that was against the grain of where he was naturally, but he has played also some quite difficult villainous characters as well. So that's why I'm saying he's got a range. So yes, tick tick, Jamie Dawne an interesting Leo Waddle, I think that's his name, I don't know him so well, but I think he's been in things like the Lotus Hotel series, all those kind of things. He's a young actor, very good, and he seems to be playing a character that is not canon as it were, whose name begins with Hal, Halvard or something like that, which sounds as though he could be in some way a ranger. And thinking about it, you're not going to send him, McKellen, that he's great age, off into the wilds of location shooting, because he just can't do it. That's one of the problems about him being interested in the role. So who is Eric Olm going to talk to? I heard I think it was none of the rings were speculating about it, and I was checking what was happening at lunchtime, and they were taking it quite seriously about, oh, well, who is this person? And I was thinking, actually, he's there, surely there, just as the someone that Aragon can talk to, as a writerly thing, first and foremost, he needs a companion, and it's clear, unless you're going to give him a legula or someone to go with him, you need someone who could conceivably be accompanying him. And another ranger seems like an obvious choice, because we know he has the grey company and all those people in the Lord of the Rings books, which never made it over to the film. So that's what I suspect is happening. Though, of course, the name is fairly generic, so it could be some other race of man in that time. We'll see, but I think if I was putting money on it, it would be somebody from the north, like a ranger. Okay, so another casting, which I think you will be familiar with, Jacob, that's Kate Winslet, who is playing a character called Marie Gold, which sounds hobbit-y, but we're in the time of, well, I'm not aware of there being a main female hobbit called Marie Gold. So I suppose we can speculate that maybe she is something like Gollum's, the sort of the matriarch of Gollum's tribe of hobbit, you know, proto-hobbits, because his grandmother is mentioned and does get like her own little Gandalf talks about her and actually mentions her when he's telling Gollum's story. So Kate Winslet, who is more or less my age, so she's not, oh, I'll say I'm not. No, no, no, no, no, no, but she's not a young woman. This is becoming seasoned. She's just not a young lady anymore. She's becoming those sort of motherly parts. Yeah, right. So that seems though, unless they're inventing another hobbit, who in some ways going to be around in the sort of present day of this film, that doesn't seem plausible. I think she must be from some kind of backstory for Smeagle, Gollum. But what do you think about the idea of seeing Kate Winslet as a matriarch of a, you know, the sort of steward. I mean, it could, yeah, I mean, why not? She has, she has the acting chops. She could make it convincing. She could make it compelling. We do have, I mean, so Marygold without a D, we do have a Marygold in rings of power, a Marygold brand of foot, who was one of the characters there. So you know, another like a proto-hobbit type character. So I don't know if they're, if that's even part of their consideration on the naming. Okay. So I suppose the name doesn't tell us anything. Other than that, Kate Winslet has sort of, you know, fresh-faced English complexion, not obviously sort of Elfin, if I can put it like that. Right. Not obviously sort of, you can imagine the sort of Kate Winslet, a D, not the Kate Winslet, the take-glanshit types would, would lead you more into a elf direction. Right. Most people have immediately gone to her being a hobbit, but I guess that name doesn't rule out her being some kind of, something else. I mean, I wish, you know, part of me was, was wishing that it would be, that it could have been, uh, Eric Warren's mother, because he needs somebody if you're going to show, you know, my name is it. She does. I know it's not, you know, exactly. That's how we know it's not, it's not going to be her. So, um, yeah, yeah, so it could have been, yeah, I don't know, is there a relationship with the new, um, is there something in relation to this, you know, halvar, this new character? Yeah, it could be. Perhaps, who knows? But yeah, but certainly not, yeah, so it's not going to be, that's not, that's not an Elvish name. So, we're, well, I guess, yeah, I mean, eager, eager to find out what she'll do and how prominently she'll be, uh, you know, what kind of part she'll actually play in the film, because these, like, in terms of like the, the material that we have, there isn't a large female, uh, you know, prominent role in that part. So whatever they're doing here, it's a, you know, new character, uh, how, how do they put her into that story, like you were saying, within, coloring within the lines of what's there in the text, um, and being aware of what's been presented in the films, uh, to then kind of walk that line, introducing a new character with, who can, you know, do something with the role, like Kate Winslet obviously will be able to do. I just hope they can do her justice by, uh, by, by providing a role that, that allows her to do something meaningful in the story. Yeah, and again, just to sort of emphasize those, those of you only last saw her in Titanic or something. Um, she has gone on to do so many, um, different roles, including, uh, wall reporters and she recently directed a, a film came out of Christmas, goodbye June with Helen Mirren, where she was playing an older, you know, sort of a grown-up daughter to somebody dying of cancer. So she's got, again, the breadth and the range that one would hope. So she can do anything, basically, and I agree with you. Let's hope whatever part she's given, be it Hobbit type thing or some kind of human, uh, let it, let it be significant. Um, yeah. I, I will say that I have so like, my most recent kind of exposure to her is her, um, audiobook narration of the Enchanted Wood, uh, Children's series, uh, she did the Far Away Tree, um, uh, audiobook that my, uh, my child listens to sometimes. So she can do, so I know that she can do, if it is kind of, you know, more, Hobbit-y, thematic role that she can, I've heard her, be able to do that, you know, and do it well. She has that kind of whimsy, can have that kind of, like, you know, magical whimsical wondrous, uh, little to her, uh, to her voice. So I think she could, if it is even that kind of a role, I think that she would be able to do well based on what I've heard her do. Yeah, and of course there's just a practical thing about which British actors are left over who haven't been cast in Harry Potter, so, you know, they don't want to cross streams of the franchise. Yeah, that's, that's important. Um, okay, so moving on, uh, and then we got news about people returning, so Lee Pace was the new announcement. Now Lee Pace, most people listening to this, will remember as Thrandwell in the Hobbit, and he was definitely one of the best castings. Him and Martin Freeman were brilliant in that. Um, I think the problems were all to do with the, the script really, rather than the castings. Um, I also liked Richard Armitage as well as, anyway, so casting was strong in that thing, it's just the way it was divided up, which it was weird, and that's charitable. Um, so Lee Pace with his awful, awful arrogance, um, in that was rather good. So him coming back and just wish his robes again. I think he's exciting, but also, I think he will be fine because that's what 10, 13 years ago he did that. I think because he was already a mature elf, he won't have aged out. Whereas poor old Orlando Bloom, if he did come back in any way as legulus, um, he would find it very difficult to be D age just because he probably won a longer move like a, of course it doesn't, like a 20-year-old. Um, so I think Lee will be fine. Um, so that, that seems good. Elijah Wood coming back, he did look a bit ancient, even with all the de-aging technology in the Hobbit. So I'm not sure how he's going to be featured, possibly as a, a voiceover introduction of the red book kind of brief glimpse. I can't imagine he will have a larger role than bookending it. And then Ian McKellen, I am worried about Ian McKellen because in the hunt for Gollum, Gandalf does stand to play a big part, he's a part of the search. And lovely Ian McKellen is eighties and he has had a number of health events, you know, he can't ride a horse or, you know, so I'm hoping a bit like they had to reprisse to Billy, I'm hoping they're going to work away of, um, letting him act without overstressing him. Um, I know he wants to keep hold of the part. Should let, should let go, Ian, that's my personal view, but I know a lot of people really want him to come back. Um, but anyway, if he's coming back, don't overstress him. And then of course, finally, anti-circus, um, it's going to be Gollum as well. That's going to be, don't you think that's really interesting? Well, people have done it before, but how is he going to direct and act? When it's the hunt for Gollum, how's he going to do that? It's going to be really hard. Yeah, yeah. Yep, no, agreed. And I don't know that the, yeah, the difficulties, the added level of complexity with the motion capture, um, you know, that he's going to be, because he's, he, he's there. I'm sure he'll be there in the scenes with folks, but he'll be, I think the actors will already be having to suspend their disbelief, looking at a man in a, in a spandex suit with, with, with the dots on him, uh, and a man using their imagination. Uh, so, I don't, yeah, and that's, that's a good, uh, a good question. I, in terms of like the logistics of directorial responsibilities, uh, in scenes that it's, it's largely set up from what, from what I've seen and understand that it's, you know, setting up a scene beforehand, going through, and then afterwards, yeah, like, like directors do rather than like stopping people cutting mid scene, which you, you could, you could do, but it is different. It's the same thing like with a, um, you saw more of this, uh, uh, a few decades ago with, with basketball, with, um, American basketball that they had a few player coaches. So somebody who was playing in the game, but who was also coaching didn't really last. There was just like a, a, a spot where people tried doing that, but they found it was strategically and emotionally better for all those involved to have the director, who's, who's just kind of doing their role of, of, of, of, you know, the Maestro, if you will, of kind of, like, or, you know, orchestrating all the different parts rather than being in it because that's completely different because emotionally, you have to be invested in the scene for it to be convincing and get responses from your fellow actors. So it is a level of complication. Um, but I think that he did actually do this, um, if I remember from the making of, he did do this on the hobbit for that scene, the, the breast scene and the whole thing when he does the riddles. I've got a feeling he was the director of the second unit and did that. So I've got in my mind that he actually, there is a bit where you can go and look what he does on them, the extras, uh, showing how he does it. Um, and of course, as you say, because it's a mo cat type thing that you could, I presume he could have a double sort of for the, when he's doing coverage for other act, he could have someone else doing that and he can be, um, it's not actually on him. Anyway, let's, let's see is it's, um, Andy, you've taken on a lot. Okay. So that was, you know, sufficiently joyful to find out and all that was happening. Um, but we also heard a couple of weeks ago now that, um, this was, this did take me by surprise that Stephen Colbert, who is best known for being a late night chat show host, but he's also a very funny man and, you know, he's, he's, he's got a personality that goes beyond his show, but he is also known, of course, as being one of the uber fans of talking and he would have a rather sort of prominent cameo role in that he didn't blend with the rest of the film in the Hobbit. Um, but he clearly loves anything to do with the whole Peter Jackson setup. Anyway, and he's been cancelled or whatever, his show's been cancelled. So he, we knew, everyone knew that he was going to do something else, but nobody knew what. And then Peter Jackson announced with him that he is writing, well, if I've been calling it like this, if the hunt for Gollum is a prequel, then this is an interval because it fits in between the party and the Hobbits arriving at, well, and leaving starting to leave a Hobbit sort of party getting together of Mary Pippin, Simon Frodo, and arriving in Bri. It's an interval there. And there is muttering rumours about them doing a trilogy. So that would mean we've got prequel interval and maybe a sequel. Right. I don't know. That's what I'm thinking would be quite a nice pattern. But what do you think about a, well, let's start with the material first and then talk about the people involved. What do you think about this idea of filling in the bit? So there's the chapters, the early chapters of Lord of the Rings, where they're not going to redo, you know, Gandalf talking to Frodo and all that stuff again. They're going to conceivably can pick up with, I don't know, Farmer Maggett because he was not really covered. The Old Forest, Old Man Willow, Tom Bombadil, Goldbree, Barodowns, Barrow Whites, and then presumably stop as they reach Bri. More to think about that as material for a film. Yeah, that was good. And it was interesting. When Colbert announced it, he talked about those chapters, how he said when he loves the film, loves the films, and was looking at and also loves the books. And he was thought, you know, looking at those chapters that they skipped that he kept coming back to them and said, like, is there enough here for a story because he felt there was. And so I did the same thing immediately when and revisited those. And I think it could work. I think there's enough there to provide an arc for the characters and for Frodo's in particular. You know, there's a line at the very end when, at the very end of those, those sort of chapters when Frodo is, you know, captive by the Barrow White. And it says, you know, there's like a seed of courage that's in the existence in all hobbits. And sometimes it just takes the desperate circumstance, you know, to be able to awaken that. And then you don't, you know, ultimately does and saves his friends were at the, as at the beginning, he's very reluctant, hesitant to leave. He's always questioning, I'm sure that I have, you know, did I leave him? Am I doing the right thing? Should I have left? Did I leave the wrong way? Now is everybody? Did I actually make things worse by leaving? Because my friends know about the ring. Does that mean everybody else knows about the ring? There's the black writers. And so you see have this kind of like fearful Frodo who in that moment, I think you really see him first really kind of summon his courage. So this is kind of the awakening of Frodo the hero. I think you can see, I think this could be a good way to represent that kind of transition of character because he does, well, in the films, he does, he does kind of, he can be hesitant and question and defer to others. He is the fairly brave, it seems like for for a hobbit who's out of their depth, certainly more so than Mary and Hippen at the beginning and even Sam. So in my mind, so these stories that you're doing kind of like, well, it's not pretty cool, but if it's a movie that's kind of being inserted into a bubble. That's why I called it an interval. Right. Yeah, yeah. So we've seen it before. And I think you can do it well. It's if it's done, I think it's it serves the story. If it adds something, it adds a dimension or a layer to a character that then if you rewatch the other, rewatch the original, then you think like, Oh, okay, I can appreciate this character more. There's something that like enriches your understanding and kind of experience of that character. Then it's there. And I think they're able to do that like with Star Wars has done it to varying degrees of success. And I think mostly with the, you know, the Rogue One kind of like more of a stand alone disconnected the Andor series where it's adding some more depth that now kind of going back and watching stories, seeing characters, you understand, Oh, there's this motivation to the character. And it enriches rewatching the original. So I think that with the this within this arc, you do see Frodo kind of moving and changing, at least told, you know, talking himself signifies this kind of this switch, this light change in Frodo at that moment. And the barrel when he's when he's captured by the barrel white. So I think within that, within the arc with the with the Tom Bombadil, with the, you know, the old forest, with Tom Bombadil, the barrel whites, I think I think I think there's enough there to have like a nice self-contained story without having to like we saw with the Hobbit, the problem with the Hobbit is it was stretched to thin into three films from the material, but the material that we have here, I think there's enough to be able to provide a nice to dig into some of those moments. But the trick is that I would love to hear this your thoughts on this on how that fits in with the with the existing films. What you think the best way to do that. So that's going to be a real challenge, isn't it? So first of all, the choices they took, simplified some of the characters. So one of the things I was finding when I've been doing this series reading my way through it, side cast, I'm calling it. Remember looking at those and thinking, oh yeah, talking really did think about the different roles of the Hobbits within that little walking party. A Mary in particular is not just the naughty sidekick character. He is more like I think I would call him a quartermaster. He provides the ponies and he negotiates on their behalf. Here's the one who goes ahead and prepares the way, sets things out. Here's the one who knows about the road through the old forest. So he's not just Pippin's chum. And of course, Pippin, as a took as a whole, he's own sort of background, but we got the idea of, we love you to see Mary as a brandy back because a brandy box and the which he will eventually become, you know, head of that branch of the family. And they've got a very different culture and that would be fun to see. But it would mean shifting Mary slightly. I think you see later in the trilogy that he is a more serious character of the two. He is the one, for example, who is suspicious of Strider early on, if you remember. And then of course, he has that sort of seriousness of purpose, which Pippin is later to find when he reaches Gondor. So that would be, there's a slight re-tuning. I think you can just about get away with it. But in terms of where Mary is, I think if you're going to have the four of them, you want more nuance between who they will provide the nuance. And with Frodo, by casting a larger wood so young, they got rid of this. But Frodo is the young officer who is sent over the top with his men. That's who he is. And it would be interesting to see if they lean more into that. The fact that Frodo does have some sort of command. And that's what you see. He takes responsibility and command. So I think that's all, that's interesting. But I feel it's a bit thin. I know why they're doing it. I would be interested to see how they connect it to the outer frame, because apparently it's Storta who is in the appendices. You know that she holds their books. And so she's like the next generation of the story. That's where I would put the sequel. If I was going to write, yeah. And that seems, and I've seen, you know, that's what they did with Star Wars, with the Force Awakens, those kind of the passing of the batons. So they had the original characters in. And then this new crop that they were presumably kind of like rolling off the franchise onto the shoulders of. So this could be a way if they're introducing that character and having her as kind of part of the framing story. She's Eleanor, I think. Is that the right name? Yes. Yeah. Because it's named after the flower that they see in Lorian. So yes. And I think she's the one who becomes a, she's also bright lady in waiting to all win and things. So I'm exactly like her. I think she sounds really interesting. But the, it is frankly thin. And the stakes are quite hard to persuade you. I know that the sort of strap line is the fellowship almost failed before it began. You have to work hard, I think, to. To convince. So make that stake. Because you don't have the sort of, you know, the sexy characters like Aragorn and Legolas and Borumin, all that sort of the men around. You, you know, laughing, chuckling, don't want to do all. Yeah. Goldberry, right. So we have two. So now, whereas it was all male. So we have it within the material, the source material itself, there's one female. That's Goldberry who comes in and it's just kind of weaves her way within the story to provide some. Clotical atrial style presence, really. So I did exactly. Yeah. File run at Galadriel. A photo, Galadriel. Yeah, it's coming in there. Yeah. So it's so again, like, you know, mystical, mysterious, happy, but kind of like an untouchable character. Not one that they're like really feel that they can approach, but that they're approaching with like on trepidation because it's too soon to do this elemental force, much like an elf, but I think like even heightened in the text itself. It's really she is a force of nature. Yeah. That's kind of embodied or anthropomorphized. And so yeah. So I think it's about having Eleanor as, you know, their female. So when you talk about audience, it's it'll be hard to have, you know, you're, there's going to be love interests. You don't have like, you don't have like an art like to change that they made with the film with having R-Win inserted earlier, taking some slightly different roles to make her more prominent role in the film to ideally connect more perhaps with, with certain audiences. So this one's going to be a male, a very male centered film unless they're able to with the frame story with Eleanor. If she's actively kind of, you know, they're intercutting her throughout this as she's kind of discovering and learning more information about what happened. But I think what I'm interested to see is how they explain within the scope of the film, why this didn't make it into the story that everyone knows, which is presumably, you know, the films that we saw them. So it's like, well, what was about this? Well, there was a there was an entire character like elemental force, the oldest perhaps the oldest being that existed on middle earth and you just didn't mention that in your story to us. Almost the barrel whites, these terrible like forces of evil that nearly killed all of your friends and you forgot to mention that to us. So I mean, you're good to hear like how they explain that within the film. She does have like you said, like she does have, she has given the red book. So she has that information. And I don't know if she's now is she's saying like, well, this is perhaps the author, you know, who's been writing Bilbo and Frodo and this perhaps they've been unreliable narrators and then she's going to, you know, the different areas and trying to tease out. Okay. Oh, that'd be great. What didn't they tell us here and she's seeing different things like especially with like the, you know, the the the barrel blades that they receive in the books, it's they get that that's where they receive their their swords that are really daggers, right? Tom Bombayle gives them, you know, from from the bear white's treasure. And that's how they're armed. Whereas in the films, Error Gorn is the one. He just helps them. Yeah. Has some extra extra swords because why not? He's he's he's well prepared. He's a monarch and in waiting. I think they may they may have to abandon the idea of completely dovetailing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's why it's going to be such a straight jacket. No, it will be and especially with the farmer, you may have mentioned farmer maggots. So I went in and rewatched the little section. They mentioned. Yeah. So they mentioned farmer maggot. Like that's who they say they're running away from when they run into them in the cornfields. They say, yeah, so easy and you see the side kind of, you know, bobbing up and down there. Uh, what I'm I'm interested to hear from you, Julius. I think the biggest character here that is going to be the play a part in this and we'll probably be there is clearly is going to be central to the plot is Tom Bombadil. Oh, yeah. Um, so so your thoughts on how to handle this. I'd love to hear, you know, how Tom Bombadil has been handled. Um, you know, we've we've reviewed, you know, rings of power season two was kind of our first like on screen. We have, um, you know, audio adaptations like with with Andy circus with his narration of of fellowship of the ring. Um, we have, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, American, uh, national public radio adaptation that does include Tom Bombadil, but the BBC 1981 radio adaptation skipped over that part because, you know, that whole, uh, section there. So, so what are you expecting? What do you hope? What do you fear with Tom Bombadil? What would you like to see, especially with your close rereading that you've been doing? What do you think? How do you think they can serve Tom Bombadil here in a way that he hasn't been served elsewhere? Okay. So the reason why I said book version, the book version of Tom Bombadil comes across as like a nursery time figure because he was a nursery character in and that and you still with talking at the moment when he's still thinking of it as a new hobby. And they had this little figurine in the nursery and it was incorporating a child's toy in the story and then sort of doing the talking thing of, oh, well, it's actually going to be this, you know, it's much bigger than that, of course. Um, and that origin is kind of dropped away. So, but one of the vestiges of that sort of younger, sort of more nursery thing is the way he talks the ho-hunt on, you know, Tom Bombadil songs. I think the way to handle it, um, is why not just go with Rory Keneer who's doing a fabulous job in the rings of power version of Tom Bombadil? He seems to have the right energy for this character. So someone, if not him, well, why not him? Um, but also I think, think about that, not think of it as more like a focusinger. Some really great focusinger who's, because a lot of medieval folk songs have the, the refrain like that. And actually, I think you'd have to cast someone who's got a really good baritone or bass voice, who could really carry it off without it sounding odd or funny. Because it's cheerful, but it's not, you're not laughing at him. It's a joke that you share like a babbling brook. That's the idea. The spirit is that kind of infectious laughter that you get with, you know, the best people. And it's a tall order, but I think you can do it if you've got someone who's musically sensitive. I don't know if Rory Keneer is, maybe he writes, like, oh no, that's not me. But, um, somebody who's got the acting chops of him, but also, he's able to sing. I mean, I suppose, um, somebody who's actually trained in singing would be good. I'm just thinking of a few, Jack, Jackman, someone like that who can really carry a tune would be good, but you need some, not necessarily him, but somebody who could not be embarrassed about moving between speech and song. Because I think that's the key thing about that character. And it can really fail. It's hard to dub as well in other languages, you know. Um, so we'll see, but I think what I think he's actually, to be honest, I think he's easier in a way than Goldbury, because Goldbury is described in very similar language to Galadriel. And she stands, poses in a very similar way to Galadriel is, it is like a sort of, is so he's playing with these ideas and then says, I'll write it. I think you'd have to lean into the idea of her being a sort of river goddess, probably a bit more CGI, you know, a bit more sort of idea that she's, she's, she's like, made almost a wall, yeah, elemental creature. Yeah, or something where she doesn't feel like Cape Township, but not. Um, but she's kind and she has an element of, um, nurturing to her as well, as does Tom there, but I think that's what I would kind of emphasize is they're both really loving characters and a happy marriage. Right. And the language that they use there in the book is really interesting. It says like that they are like, that they're different. Like Tom is this kind of like, boisterous and, uh, you know, kind of jovial. She is happy and nurturing and caring. And it says that they're kind of like weaving their way around each other and this kind of dance. Yes, the way that they describe their relationship that they that they seem like off like, you know, total opposites, but that they're together somehow able to work in concert with one another, which is like, which is, you know, kind of evoking, with Tom in general, it's really, I feel you have strong resonances with the I know Linda Lay in the Silmarillion where existence begins with Tom. Yeah. Right. And so, and it's not just and even when, um, you know, Melkor is introducing this harmony, um, the other, um, I know, uh, and, uh, you know, the creation is able to kind of harmonize, use like play off of that discord to create something that's even more beautiful. And so the emphasis that I keep seeing here on, on singing and then like when, when the hobbits then say that it feels, basically, you know, Frodo starts kind of singing and kind of stops themselves and it's like, I didn't, and then he says they, they found it easier to sing at times than to talk. So like he said, it's infectious. It's just something that there's this kind of like elemental, they're tapping into something that's elemental that Polkina is, is seeing as fundamental to creation itself, which is sought. Um, and Tom Bombadil is kind of the embodiment of, of that in a way in the natural world, which is fascinating. But and I think, yeah, like, like you're saying, like with the, the, the, the, the voice, um, if you treat you like like a folk singer, I think like that's a really good approach. So I did, I went and did, you know, a deep dive on all of the different like, um, interpretations of Tom Bombadil in, in, in all of these different forms. So listening to how the American version, uh, did it in 1979. Um, it was kind of on more of a, kind of a goofy, silly character, some singing, um, but, uh, but not all the time. Andy's here, and then Rob, uh, English, um, had singing, you know, had Tom Bombadil singing, wanted explicitly in the text said that he was singing. Um, but Andy Serkis, what he does, which is fascinating, is he picked up on Polkins, like the, the lyricism. So when, when Tom Bombadil speaks, he speaks in meter, they still, still there. And so, and so Andy Serkis recognizes the, the meter that's there, even though it doesn't say that he was, it doesn't express the say, he's saying this. But Andy Serkis recognizes the meter and he continues to sing. So the majority of Tom Bombadil's lines are sung in the Andy Serkis adaptation, which I thought was fascinating and like, and more, you know, did justice to the text. And as, as I imagined Tolkien was imagining it, kind of hearing it, uh, himself, um, what I saw in the rings of power season two was a more, the character, like so it was, it was a more subdued character. He's well, I'll be on actually, isn't he? I felt that he, yeah, look, he felt a bit similar to the beyond character in the Hobbit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think so we saw like a more, he was more, yeah, like a more, a more subdued as if like, yeah, that, that he then, the hard trajectory is usually it's your jolly and then you become jaded. Um, whereas in rings of power, he's kind of like jaded subdued character who then all of a sudden is going to become like happy go lucky after all these, like his trauma that he's gone through. Um, so I think yeah, the, that Andy Serkis gives a very, kind of like a boisterous, the energy with which Andy Serkis, um, provided I think was interesting. With the Rob English, it was, it was kind of a more constant. It was, uh, like a happy and joyful, but it was more, uh, it was a more measured, uh, as opposed to kind of like a little bit more unbounded in Andy Serkis's. So I'd be interested to see how they take this character and like you're saying with kind of as goldberry as the foil for that. Um, and without making it seem like outlandish and just silly. Yeah, one thing we do know with the Stephen Colbert script is it's going to be extremely respectful of the source. He's doing it with his son who I think is called just got different surname Peter McGee or something like that, who is a script writer. Um, I don't know what you think about nepotism, but clearly they'll have a close working relationship there on this. Um, but the other thing that I think bodes well for the what we've just been talking about is Stephen Colbert and his wife Evie clearly have a very Tom Bomberdale goldberry marriage. They're all clearly very happy married and she often appears on his show and so I'd quite like to see a bit of her own, a bit of her in here, you know. Um, they are, they are writing it with Philippa Boyens of course and PJ and all the rest of them and Fran. So I'm sure it will, it will blend, but yeah, it's, it's definitely making something with the trimmings from the pastry. Yeah, and one other thing I was thinking of like the things that we've seen elsewhere that like so this material that we've seen has been mined elsewhere, even in the Peter Jackson films, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, when, uh, when, uh, Pippin and Mary go to Finghorn, forest, they're kind of attacked by the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and okay, yeah, right. So yeah, so if you sat in the theater, you're out of luck, but yeah, so they, so, so, so, so this material has been my like, so that the whole episode there where the forest is kind of, uh, attacking, um, we, that that kind of has been my little bit in rings of power. That was one of things that kind of that I felt was done. I don't want to say disrespectfully, but just like it didn't, it, it seemed like they're pulling out. So you have the, um, uh, the stranger who's revealed to be Gandalf. Oh, the barrow rights. They're in the real name. Barrow rights also. Yeah. So the same, yeah. So again, like the same episode, it's even known the same episode. It's episode four of season two where Gandalf is, is, is, you know, trapped by this, um, you know, it's old, old man Ironwood. So they just changed that off and then even the same lines where he's saying, you know, and again, I was trying to ask him who he is. His responses are the same as, yeah, you know, as, as Tom Bommado's response to Frodo, he's asking, who am I, um, and even the singing. And so it just seemed like they were just kind of like lifting the ports, you know, copy, you know, insert fine and repaced. Yeah. Find and replace this put in some other generic names and put in the same situation rather than taking the spirit of that and seeing how it would happen and organically kind of unfold. And there I felt like it was trying to steer too close to that. So the same episode, the Tom Bommado, and that kind of a tree attacking our heroic character, you also have the barrel whites in a separate, you know, you know, separate story, um, separate plot, uh, with, um, gladriel and elrond and then the, the, and that's kind of more of an actiony fighting the barrel whites. I didn't find that one as, you know, objectionable because they were taking this concept of barrel white and then just like having those as an obstacle, um, and wasn't really a plot. It didn't really, it advanced the plot in the, in so far as the characters are coming together and this, this group that wasn't really coherent now is kind of having to fight together. So, so okay, it served as purpose here, but taking the Tom Bommado material from his character and his character development and just kind of like wholesaler lifting it out of there and plopping it into another setting without changing it or finessing it much. Um, that was something that I, I thought could have been handled differently, um, to, to, but of course this, this team don't have to worry about what brings a power up to. Right. No, or do it. Well, that, I'm sure that'll be a like that voice. I'm sure Steven Colbert has seen rings of power season two guarantee it, right? Um, so I'm sure that's all you mean, how I see. Yeah. So he, so as they're doing that, I'm sure they're saying like so that, that Tom Bommado has been portrayed recently. If it was like something from, you know, if it was the rink and bass, animated adaptation, then that was the only thing that, then it would be a problem. But so recently we've had a Tom Bamba Dill live action adaptation within the past two years when this being developed. So I'm sure that that is playing that that's something that they're kind of triangulating around like do they want to, how are they responding to it? Because again, it exists already in their mind. So they have to decide, okay, do we want to lean into that character choice or do we want to go a completely different direction? So it has to be reactionary by virtue of the fact that it does exist in the world and it's something that the people that are involved likely have seen. And also they probably will have to do a more diverse casting process. So you might actually give a very different type for Tom Bamba Dill. Right. Well, Tom Bamba Dill, his hands are described as as brown. Now you can, you know, when they're describing him. So he doesn't say like exactly how he's looking, but he's doing, I mean, he has red, you know, red hair and whatnot, but that he's darker complexion. And so we could, so there's, there is just like with Harry Potter with the casting, right? I think there's, there are enough, there's enough leeway in the text that you can work with it a minute. So I would hope that they would do that because they're stuck with the hobbits and with the characters that they have. They can't re, they can't recast. I don't think it would be difficult to then put in somebody of a completely different ethnicity as they like hit in. If they're trying to make it feel as though it's seamless with the rest of the story. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. They can obviously play around with having a more diverse hobbit cast. Why not? You know, I think they should. They probably would be started doing that in the hobbit. I didn't really notice, but they certainly did. They'd take town and places like that. Okay. So that's as far as we can really get on that at the moment. Other than I think it's really interesting. And yeah, good luck to them all. I'm sure they have, of course, they have thought through all these kind of things we've been talking about. But Stephen Colbert feels he's got a line through this. And I want him to surprise me and actually think so that I can say, oh, that's brilliant, Stephen. Well, you really did not get that one out the park. Yeah. That'd be great. And this is something that I saw in another interview that he did was his inspiration for doing this. So some people might like you're saying, like, I would love to be pleasantly surprised. And I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised. Because we said one of his inspirations for going to like screenwriting route was Bill Heder. Bill Heder was in Saturday Night Live, a comedian who then after finishing Saturday Night Live for several years, very successful run. He took a year and joined the writing team on South Park. So we just like didn't want to go to another like acting gig that a lot of people after Saturday Night Live or comedy shows, they would find the next big thing in the spotlight. He took time, he just joined a writing room for an animated cartoon for adults, did that for a year. And then based on that, then he started writing his own material and he developed this incredible dark comedy Barry that won several awards around for like four seasons on HBO. Yeah, it's a dark dark comedy that has some like a serious like drama has some like it's really really good. And so so team of obesity, he was inspired by Bill taking time off from being in front of the camera to then work on storytelling and what that did for him. And he said that was really kind of inspired him to kind of look for that route as he knew that his runway was ending with the late show that he wanted to then what do I want to do get into writing. And then luckily he called it, he called, you know, his show being canceled, a Yucatastrophe is the specific word that he uses in, right. So so you know, so you so clearly this is somebody who knows Tolkien, not just like his, you know, the fiction works, but also his nonfiction, his scholarly works, right on, you know, it's the scholarship on fairy. So so that so I do definitely see this is something that he's now able to and I'm grateful that he's able to kind of pivot into something his passion that maybe he can use his success, the resources, you know, the connections that he's made to then now try to do something different and to contribute, he says he feels like there's something that he can contribute to this because of worries because he loves the material so much, he wants to make sure that it's done right. Yeah, I want to do it justice. Yeah, I want to love anything to look forward to, you know, because you know, when the world feels bleak, I like looking forward to projects like this where I think, oh, well, that's coming in, you know, 2027 and then it's nice to have that. I think 2027 is the hump of golem, isn't it? Right. Yeah. And then I presume this one is a couple of years further on from that. Very sane on the part of Stephen Colbert. So just to wrap up, we were going to also have a think about, for many people listening who are interested in being writers like Stephen Colbert, but perhaps writing fantasy novels. And I know this is an area Jacob that you'd love to break into. Right. And I've just sort of got a new contract to write a new children's book which has a foot in the fantasy market. I thought it might be a good idea, just have a touch base about what's happening now in publishing. Yeah, area. And we'll keep dipping back in as I go through this year until publication. So what have you got to tell me? Yeah, so tell me, so with the changing face of all these different things, so clearly there's a demand for it, right, with impossible creatures being optioned by Disney, then kind of seeing that as their kind of Harry Potter Fantastic Beasts series. So this is something that places are looking to find new voices, to find exciting stories that they can then turn into intellectual property, to state it craft. They're looking for good stories. Yeah. They can exploit that people will resonate with people and that they can help to help, you know, sprout different, different media, different. So how do you, how do you do that? Exactly an interesting example, because that's by Catherine Rendell, who I know a bit. I was, I reviewed one of her very early books and went to dinner with her. She has a role all-souls, which is like this completely bizarre college with no students. It's just right by the Bodleian. It's, it is something like something from a fantasy, you know, Philip Paulman or something. I haven't read him, I have read some of her other work, but she's known as a very literary writer. Right. Yeah. And she's also done a well-regarded biography of John Dunn, for example. So she's not this sort of academic side to her. So I haven't read impossible creatures, but I know she said it's been optioned by Disney. I'm not aware of it having been a runaway bestseller here. So it's interesting that a property like that, which doesn't have a big following, not like the how to train your dragons, has been picked up. So that tells me I must go and read it and see what's going on there. It is. Yeah. And this is, and this is what I think what I'd love to hear like as you're approaching this. So clearly like money's been put. So Barnes and Noble, here in America, picked it as one of their book, book of the year, you know, for young readers. They have different editions, you know, like printed, you know, on the spine, you know, they have like a griffin edition. There's different editions you can get. My child got stickers. They have their sheet of stickers, four kids of all the different mythical creatures. They're on the back of his high chair. So they came up with, you know, there's, there's clearly a lot of marketing money that was behind it from the get go to position this as a book that they wanted to be successful. So part of it probably is due to the publishing publishers decision to like to put, you know, to go all in on to put extra market funds to promote this book. So as you're looking with you're with your project. So as you're approaching publishers and the first is did did did did the marketing and positioning of the story that you wrote did that play any role as you were developing like the idea and yeah. So obviously I'm in different position for somebody who's a debut because I've got I'm having conversations already with people at parties and, you know, that stuff, the networking stuff. So how this particular one came about was I was having a conversation with some people at my agent's retirement party asking what are you looking for? What do you want? And this concept came up, which I thought, oh yeah, that is a that is a good area to be writing in. So it was just a couple of lines about the kind of area they were looking for. And if you know, if you can see what publishers are looking for, look at wider culture and think, okay, so what's really hot at the moment? What's really, you know, if it's a massive year for football, for example, there's bound to be football books. If it's a massive year for space, there's going to be people writing about Jordan going to space. It's this that simple. And I then developed something out of that. Finally enough, I did actually go the person I had the conversation with didn't pick up my email. So I ended up just sending it to my agent once I'd written it. And then she went out to the market with it and ended up with three publishers interested. It all happened super quickly. So I had a new agent who taken over from the retired agent who came in wanting to prove herself. That helps. I had been away from writing for Jordan for a bit because I've been writing for adults. So I haven't sort of been going out a lot recently to the same people that helped. And the concept, everybody could see, before they even read it, they thought, oh yeah, they the what they call the elevator pitch. Yes, this seems timely. I will tell, I will share what that pitch is later once we've sort of got it further. You don't want to be picked post by somebody else doing it, you know. And so I haven't had a sort of three way competition for a book ever. I don't think I've had rumbles of interest around titles, but then I've got into relationships with a particular publisher and stuck with them. And so it's not been that. And that was very exciting because it's sort of tests the idea, the theory of the case. So we're so we've got us born who are a specialist children's publisher in the UK who are publishing here, but it's going out around now to overseas publishers hoping there'll be it'll be picked up for translation and where as looking at it from a sort of marketing point of view, where you as an author want to make money is getting it picked up for being translated into other languages. That's where you make money initially. And if you get a film deal, well, that's, you know, that's the thing, but for the ordinary author. So if you're thinking of a pitch for a doc for your own story, it's good to have an eye on what the rest of the world is up to. Would this sell in Germany? Would this sell in Australia or Japan or whatever it is? You can't obviously sometimes something that seems quite parochial like Harry Potter's very English. That actually is part of its selling point. So it doesn't, being local doesn't matter. It just I suppose means is the world sharing this cultural moment, ready for a wizard or an impossible creature or whatever it is. So that's what's going on there. So once you, I would say if you're sitting out there thinking I really, really want to get published. And I'm listening to Julia talking about having a good idea. I'm going to go and share. I'm going to have got lots of good ideas. I'm going to go and ask a publisher if my idea is worth writing. No, no, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop, stop. What you've got to do is you've got to sit down and write it. So after my conversation with somebody where I said, oh, I know exactly what I can do there. I've got really good idea to fill this slot. I spent November in December writing it. And by the way, middle grade books have got a bit shorter than when I lasted. Yeah. So what's the word count on yours in the general range? Well, it's just under 60k. It's about 59k. That's a bit long. We may even try and trim it down, but it's quite hard because of the plot to trim it down. But when I first started out, 60k was like a minimum. It used to be in the contracts at least 60k. And adult books would be at least sort of, you know, 90. And YA books would be in the sort of 70 to 80, 1000 words. But modern children, the way it's going to be presented will be easier to read, more white space, more illustrations. This is all to do with the modern child and the sort of visual culture they're moving in. So don't write long. If you've got a children's book out there and it's 100,000 words, wow, no, you know, really don't bother. Someone is going to fall at the first fence for a middle grade. Of course, there are big fantasy epics that get to that point, but that's for an older age range adults and upper end of YA fiction. And then so you go in with your full manuscript and then you start in this process with the edit. And what's happened in this case is that the, you sort of, the contract negotiation happens with, in my case, an agent and the publisher, that kind of happens out of your hands. You just appear words coming back. And you get going on what you're going to do next. And before that, Julia, did you, did you, the new agent that was taking over the other agent? I know that in the process that typically you'll get notes from your agent. Like you get this still send notes on your new, yeah, so you're an established writer and you have, and you've been with an agent, but then you have a new agent. Did you receive notes before this, your new agent went out? Did they give you any notes on the manuscript before then they took it out that you had to address? Yes, my previous agent would occasionally as well, particularly if we were going out to market, it was something new like this. And my new agent is called Molly Kerhorn, who happens to be American. She's wonderful. And so she gave me a round of comments in early Jan. I always deal with things very quickly because that's just the kind of way I am. And so I sent it back to her a week or so later. And then she went out to market and we, when we got the contract in PEP. So that was, that's, that's quick for publishing. Okay. And it's because this has a particular timelyness to it. Normally, things are on a sort of two years schedule where it's, this is on a, it will be out in January. So it's on the fast fast. This coming January? Yeah. Oh, well. Yeah, that was quicker than anti-circus. But let's move in parts in a book. Yeah. So. Okay, so that was so it was revised. You'd already had done some revisions before then your new agent took it out and then with the bidding between three different publishers. I would say to aspiring authors, don't be an author if you don't like reacting to other people's edits and notice. I actually love it because I regard it as I've presented something that is only got my wisdom in it. And there is a wisdom that other people can see it more plainly. It's the same with I've just dealt with the first round of editorial notes and sent it back. So I'm in second draft officially now. And the editor from your publishers. So now you've got some publisher, they've looked it over and so then the so the editor at the at us foreign that you had they have notes on it. And so you have you have you have you addressed those notes yet? Yeah, so how that happens? How that happens these days. I actually have been writing long enough to remember when this was all on paper. Now you get track changes on your document. And in us, but I always have two people look at it. A senior in a junior editor. So you got two sets of marks and the comments. And then you get a very fullsome covering letter, which kind of gives it sort of more as a thematic organisation to why what their comments are about. A very full treatment. And it was quite funny because my my new editor, Rebecca, she was sort of saying, oh, you know, if you want to call after Easter to sort of talk these through. And I say, no, no, no, no, I'm just not going to knock these off. I think you're right. You know, some of the comments actually were things which I found quite maybe for a bit of geriatric. So there were some sensitivities now about descriptors and things. I'd left off the page any kind of ethnic descriptors because I know they're but apparently I hadn't sort of really cut them down to the fact that you can't mention for Chun's books for child characters. Wait anymore. So there's certain things where they help me sort of update myself because they weren't neat. They were not necessary. And I can see why. And there was there was sort of a we we we changed something about the background of the main character just to get away from some negative stereotypes. So that that's also good because you come carrying in in my case, I live in Oxfordshire and I'm, you know, the age I am. And so I've got a whole set of baggage which I don't even know I'm carrying. And that's one of the jobs of younger people in the editorial team is they're closer to the sort of the libraries, the teachers, the kids who are reading the stuff. Or at least where the market is. I don't know if it was a kid right. Not much but where the market is. Right. So there was one comment, for example, I had an insult in it where somebody called somebody else a pillock, which is a very mild English sort of, you ridiculous person. But there was a little mark saying, oh, this would put people off using as a class reader. Oh. So why don't you use it something because maybe they think it's more rude than it is. It's not rude. So we went for a different one that doesn't raise the same issue. So even though something like that, which I was not using anything anywhere close to anything sweary. But still it was in that sort of, oh, that's, yeah. And that's interesting. Okay, so marketing wise, right. So that means that your editor is looking at this is not just a book that people are going to pick up at waterstones, like a pair. Because it's with middle grade and below, it's really the gatekeepers, so it's the librarians, the parents that are buying these books for the kids. So they're looking at what the gatekeepers might think of a term like that. And so they're seeing it as something that could be used in school as a book to read in school, rather than just saying, I'm just putting this on the shelf at a local bookstore. It looks like it sounds like they're, they have a broader view that they would like this to be, have a broader appeal. And so that's why they're making these kind of fine tune edits. And that seems very helpful to position you as best as possible. And I'm assuming that they'll also be putting marketing funds behind their, if they're just suggest that this and either like placing reviews or interviews at different things to say, like, okay, this is a book that would be good for a school reader. Yeah, twice as girls at school. And you know, it can be read out aloud in a class without offending anyone. Right, right. So you don't want to make it to Anadine, of course. So my main character does sort of have her own. It's not so much swear words as like curse words or exclamation. So I've got like a bit like an end might say, root and twig, you know, those are equivalent. So I had fun inventing that she could say. Okay. Just sort of fun things to make you giggle, but not to make you feel, oh, that's naughty. Right. So you can sort of inject the energy. I think it's all about the energy in the text. You can inject the energy. You don't have to shock. You can use in this innocent world, I'm creating. That it has those elements, which hopefully kids will find fun. So we'll we'll get back into this later because the next stage will be I'll tell you about working with illustrators and maps and that kind of things, which are standard, like absolute core fantasy fun things to do. In terms of the level of fantasy in this, it's a kind of alternative world to our real world. So it doesn't have magic. It's just got a sort of extension of the steam age into the 20th century. So the technology has worked out to be different. And there's an element of more sentience in animals than there is in the real world. And unless you've got a very well trained dog, but you know what I mean, there's an element of a slightly slight fantasy sprinkle without going straight over into a sort of a magic economy or anything like that. So it has a make, but yeah, it has a make believe element to it without without being elves and orcs. Yeah. Okay. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it. So right now, so I haven't got an official title for it yet. So it is the Junior Gaming project. So I've all announced the name and the title. Next time. Okay. Great. Yeah. So this is so so right now it's at so you've worked with your editors and like your your edits to the text. Those are all in and moving very light touch from here onwards. It will be like the fine tuning of, you know, how it was set on the page and the, you know, those sorts of things. The line edit if there's anything you need to do in on that front, but probably already done that more or less. Yeah. Great. Look forward to hearing more about it. Yeah. Thank you for your time, Jacob. You're welcome. Happy to happy to talk with you. Thanks for listening to MythMaker's podcast. Brought to you by the Oxford Center for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCenterForFatasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford. 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