Dead Faces in the Water! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 4 Ch 2

100:00:04.600 --> 00:00:06.920Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.200:00:07.119 --> 00:00:12.300Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to300:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.620you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.400:00:15.200 --> 00:00:22.440My name is Julia Golding and today we have a special Sidecast where we take an500:00:22.440 --> 00:00:26.720author's journey through the Lord of the Rings, by which we mean we're looking600:00:26.720 --> 00:00:32.040at it from how it was written rather than the sort of minor points of Elvish or700:00:32.040 --> 00:00:32.700that kind of thing.800:00:33.140 --> 00:00:39.580We have reached in our journey chapter two of book four, that is the second900:00:39.580 --> 00:00:45.800half of The Two Towers, and it's a chapter called The Passage of the Marshes.1000:00:46.560 --> 00:00:51.260Now, when I came to write this down, I realised I'd misremembered it as The1100:00:51.260 --> 00:00:56.080Passage of the Dead Marshes, because it is indeed the Dead Marshes, but the1200:00:56.080 --> 00:00:58.880chapter title is actually just the simple Marshes.1300:00:59.420 --> 00:01:05.300And if you're reading it for the first time, that holds back that there are1400:01:05.300 --> 00:01:06.400dead things in the water.1500:01:06.780 --> 00:01:11.720So I just wanted to try and refresh our memory as to what it was like to read1600:01:11.720 --> 00:01:12.780this for the first time.1700:01:13.720 --> 00:01:18.080Looking at how this chapter is divided, it's one of the longer ones.1800:01:18.220 --> 00:01:23.960I actually have read it and also listened to the Andy Serkis version of this,1900:01:24.820 --> 00:01:28.460partly because there's so much Gollum in it, so why wouldn't you?2000:01:29.520 --> 00:01:36.260And it is over an hour reading time, so it's one of the longer chapters, but2100:01:36.260 --> 00:01:40.720not as long as The Council of Elrond, never forget that two-hour mammoth2200:01:40.720 --> 00:01:41.440chapter.2300:01:42.140 --> 00:01:47.820Anyway, I would say that it is divided mainly by places, this one.2400:01:48.880 --> 00:01:53.420So we go from the gully, which is the sort of last part of the Emyn Weal, that2500:01:53.420 --> 00:01:57.460rocky landscape they've been clambering around in for what seems like forever.2600:01:58.340 --> 00:02:06.760Then the marshes themselves, then there's this pit, horrible pit at the end of2700:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.380the marshes, and then there's a sort of moving on.2800:02:10.540 --> 00:02:14.520It's a very small bit where they're moving on from the pit, haven't quite2900:02:14.520 --> 00:02:20.480reached the gates yet, but they're pretty much in sight of the rampart walls of3000:02:20.480 --> 00:02:21.800Mordor.3100:02:23.120 --> 00:02:28.480One of the things just to note here is that Gollum has been here before, as he3200:02:28.480 --> 00:02:29.860refers to that a number of times.3300:02:29.980 --> 00:02:35.560And so we are in the area where the film The Hunt for Gollum will probably be3400:02:35.560 --> 00:02:42.840spending some of its time, because this is a place with layers of history, as3500:02:42.840 --> 00:02:44.380is so much of Middle-earth.3600:02:44.440 --> 00:02:48.260When you're thinking about the world building that Tolkien does, this is a good3700:02:48.260 --> 00:02:49.720example to have in mind.3800:02:50.040 --> 00:02:55.700So you've got very recent history of Gollum's recent journeys in this area, but3900:02:55.700 --> 00:03:00.240it of course goes back to stories of the Battle of Dagorlad, which is the4000:03:00.240 --> 00:03:06.600origin of the that they later see, which is thousands of years, 1,500, a long4100:03:06.600 --> 00:03:11.200time ago before one of the battles in front of the gates.4200:03:11.820 --> 00:03:16.100And of course, there is going forward, another battle at the gates of Mordor4300:03:16.100 --> 00:03:19.460that's going to happen later in Return of the King.4400:03:19.740 --> 00:03:22.240So there is a sense of history rhyming here.4500:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.520It repeats itself, but has a different outcome.4600:03:25.480 --> 00:03:27.960Anyway, that's the sort of setup of this chapter.4700:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.580I would say the most important thing from the author's journey point of view is4800:03:32.580 --> 00:03:36.060looking at how Tolkien is characterising Gollum.4900:03:36.340 --> 00:03:40.080Gollum is the star of these chapters, there's no getting away from it.5000:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.600He's the star really until we meet Faramir.5100:03:43.460 --> 00:03:46.380He's acting here as the conscientious guide.5200:03:47.220 --> 00:03:48.920He's casting around for traces.5300:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.140He's often compared to a dog.5400:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.300It happened in the previous chapter and it's happening again in this one.5500:03:55.760 --> 00:03:58.000Repeatedly, they keep going back to this idea of a dog.5600:03:58.820 --> 00:04:03.780And casting around for traces is like the bloodhound sniffing out what's the5700:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.040right direction.5800:04:06.780 --> 00:04:10.920There's a weird connection here, which I hadn't thought of until I was5900:04:10.920 --> 00:04:15.720concentrating on this, to how Gandalf finds his way through Moria.6000:04:15.860 --> 00:04:18.240He also sniffs the air.6100:04:18.440 --> 00:04:20.720So clearly, it's a good thing for a guide to do.6200:04:21.700 --> 00:04:26.120When we look at Gollum here, he's full of contradictions.6300:04:26.300 --> 00:04:29.260I made a little list of the ways he appears.6400:04:30.080 --> 00:04:39.700I've written down drama queen, jester, cynic, villain, and child, and dog, as6500:04:39.700 --> 00:04:40.400we've just heard.6600:04:41.120 --> 00:04:46.140The childishness comes in him singing this little song.6700:04:46.140 --> 00:04:48.800But it's like a child in a horror movie.6800:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.000You know that there's something off about them, something wrong.6900:04:53.640 --> 00:04:57.280It also gives a link back to Bilbo.7000:04:58.620 --> 00:05:07.220It's the reference to the riddle game that they play in the Misty Mountains,7100:05:07.500 --> 00:05:11.820one of those connections that weaves the Hobbit into The Lord of the Rings.7200:05:13.020 --> 00:05:18.640Some of you will be familiar with the latter part of this song, which is about7300:05:18.640 --> 00:05:22.780catching a fish so juicy sweet, because it's transposed in the Peter Jackson7400:05:22.780 --> 00:05:29.300film from here to a little bit later on, when they're in the pool beneath the7500:05:29.300 --> 00:05:35.600hideout that Faramir's men are using in Ithilien.7600:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.340If you're listening to it, it's quite fun because Andy Serkis sings it again.7700:05:41.620 --> 00:05:44.960Just another reason to have a listen to that audio version.7800:05:46.500 --> 00:05:51.020This chapter is largely from Sam's point of view.7900:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.420If you've listened to what I said about the previous chapter, I mentioned how8000:05:56.420 --> 00:05:57.760Frodo begins to disappear.8100:05:57.980 --> 00:06:03.380This is actually the chapter where he really starts to vanish under the burden8200:06:03.380 --> 00:06:03.960of the ring.8300:06:04.480 --> 00:06:11.540A lot of the narrative weight is carried by Sam's point of view.8400:06:12.520 --> 00:06:18.320Here's the one who notes the change of behavior, these mercurial changes of8500:06:18.320 --> 00:06:19.740behavior in Gollum, largely.8600:06:21.460 --> 00:06:26.980When Gollum mentions Bilbo, there's this sentence, "'A glint came into his8700:06:26.980 --> 00:06:31.840eyes, and Sam, catching the gleam in the darkness, thought it far from8800:06:31.840 --> 00:06:33.960pleasant.'" Understatement.8900:06:34.560 --> 00:06:41.780The rule seems to be, more or less, that when there is a green gleam, that kind9000:06:41.780 --> 00:06:44.020of gleam, it's the Gollum villain.9100:06:44.840 --> 00:06:51.580The paler light is a more childlike, wanting-to-please Smeagol.9200:06:54.220 --> 00:07:01.240They're flipping between the two, as we see in a minute, when we get to that9300:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.180standout conversation of this split personality.9400:07:04.980 --> 00:07:05.980But that's not yet.9500:07:07.180 --> 00:07:11.400Sam, at this point, and it's referred to later in the chapter, he is thinking9600:07:11.400 --> 00:07:14.860about their threat in a simple way.9700:07:15.380 --> 00:07:23.320Tolkien describes him as having a simple mind, but it's not meant as an insult.9800:07:23.460 --> 00:07:26.640It's meant that he calls a spade a spade.9900:07:27.260 --> 00:07:34.720He is thinking here that they could be food for Gollum, which of course is10000:07:34.720 --> 00:07:34.940true.10100:07:35.060 --> 00:07:37.060They could indeed be food.10200:07:37.860 --> 00:07:40.400That note is struck a number of times.10300:07:41.260 --> 00:07:46.400There is also another way of telling who's in control of Gollum.10400:07:47.460 --> 00:07:53.260On the whole, when he talks about his unitary self, that's, I will stay here,10500:07:53.340 --> 00:07:55.160it tends to be Smeagol.10600:07:56.100 --> 00:07:59.880When it's we, he tends to be shifting over into Gollum.10700:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.600Not always, but you'll see that's largely what is happening.10800:08:04.780 --> 00:08:09.920One of the things that Gollum reveals is that he is scared of the sun.10900:08:10.060 --> 00:08:12.120He wants to only travel in the darkness.11000:08:14.380 --> 00:08:20.540You get this beginning of him being this more cooperative Smeagol.11100:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.620He says, nice, sensible hobbits, stay with Smeagol.11200:08:24.380 --> 00:08:30.200Note how his speech is characterized by S and F sounds.11300:08:30.500 --> 00:08:35.260It all goes with the whistling, cringy voice.11400:08:35.919 --> 00:08:40.380When you get the Gollum, you often get harder, more cracking sounds.11500:08:40.820 --> 00:08:42.400Let's have a look at that a bit later on.11600:08:42.860 --> 00:08:44.580Anyway, so he's being more Smeagol here.11700:08:45.400 --> 00:08:50.860This comes to moving on from Sam fearing they're going to be food to working11800:08:50.860 --> 00:08:52.300out how much food they've got left.11900:08:53.040 --> 00:08:59.280Frodo is the one who offers some of their lembas, which Smeagol tries and of12000:08:59.280 --> 00:09:01.100course hates.12100:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.480This is where we get Smeagol the absolute drama queen.12200:09:07.460 --> 00:09:11.360You try to choke poor Smeagol, dust and ashes, he can't eat that.12300:09:12.620 --> 00:09:13.420It goes on.12400:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.500He coughs and he spits.12500:09:17.700 --> 00:09:22.580Then he goes, nice hobbits, Smeagol has promised he will starve.12600:09:22.580 --> 00:09:25.140He will starve poor thin Smeagol.12700:09:25.820 --> 00:09:29.920This was one of the things that the film did very well because he was rolling12800:09:29.920 --> 00:09:32.720around on the floor, so to say, how awful it all was.12900:09:33.640 --> 00:09:35.940Complete drama queen at this point.13000:09:37.120 --> 00:09:43.060I was reminded here of the last battle and I think perhaps this is something13100:09:43.060 --> 00:09:49.340that C.S. Lewis might have picked up or it may be one of the sources for what13200:09:49.340 --> 00:09:51.660happens to the dwarves when they go through the stable.13300:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.860In the last battle, when they're in the stable, they think they're not in a13400:09:56.860 --> 00:10:01.580beautiful land but in a horrible mucky stable with only turnips and rotten veg13500:10:01.580 --> 00:10:03.240to eat when there's actually a feast.13600:10:04.700 --> 00:10:12.980The idea there is that some states of mind, some sinful or evil people cannot13700:10:12.980 --> 00:10:14.540see the good that's in front of them.13800:10:15.240 --> 00:10:16.180Frodo says this.13900:10:16.880 --> 00:10:23.300He says to Gollum, it would do you good if you try, but perhaps you can't even14000:10:23.300 --> 00:10:26.320try, not yet anyway.14100:10:26.680 --> 00:10:31.900That not yet anyway betrays the fact that Frodo does believe in redemption.14200:10:32.140 --> 00:10:35.600He wants to believe that Gollum can be saved.14300:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.960It's an important hope for him to carry him on this journey.14400:10:41.300 --> 00:10:44.740Then we get one of these references to Gollum being like a dog.14500:10:44.840 --> 00:10:45.520There's lots of them.14600:10:45.560 --> 00:10:48.280I won't pick all of them out, but this is one that I particularly liked.14700:10:49.160 --> 00:10:55.120Once he refuses the lembas, he watches them like an expectant dog by a diner's14800:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.580chair, thinking that maybe they've got something else hidden.14900:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.580Anybody who's a dog owner knows what that looks like.15000:11:03.040 --> 00:11:09.880In the discussion about Gollum, and Sam is not worried about him being upset by15100:11:09.880 --> 00:11:15.680anything he says, Sam is the practical one, but Frodo is astute.15200:11:16.380 --> 00:11:18.820He knows, he understands what's going on.15300:11:19.380 --> 00:11:24.940The way this was done in the films is much more contentious, so much more15400:11:24.940 --> 00:11:25.960arguing about it.15500:11:26.100 --> 00:11:32.220Here, it's more of a discussion because this is really a chapter of the15600:11:32.220 --> 00:11:34.900changing power dynamics between three people.15700:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.380It's not exactly a love triangle.15800:11:36.600 --> 00:11:40.900It's a triangle of faith and trust and mistrust.15900:11:41.400 --> 00:11:43.500Probably is a better way of thinking about it.16000:11:44.160 --> 00:11:50.500For filmic purposes, they push it to make it so they break up Frodo and Sam,16100:11:50.560 --> 00:11:51.840which doesn't happen in the book.16200:11:53.140 --> 00:11:57.780So it's good to actually try and delete all that from your mind and reset it16300:11:57.780 --> 00:12:01.780and read it how it's written in the book because Frodo isn't ignorant here.16400:12:01.900 --> 00:12:07.280He is astute and he's trying to beyond this present moment.16500:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.820He's actually foreseen where they're going in a way that Sam hasn't yet.16600:12:12.620 --> 00:12:17.380This little episode in the gully is resolved by them falling asleep.16700:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.540There's this nice little detail here, which sums up their different behaviors.16800:12:21.660 --> 00:12:22.780Frodo's just gone to sleep.16900:12:23.420 --> 00:12:29.600Sam prods Gollum gently and then whispers in his ear, fish.17000:12:30.640 --> 00:12:34.600There's a note saying he restrains his thoughts about using his sword and the17100:12:34.600 --> 00:12:35.220rope on him.17200:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.860Sam is under orders not to hurt Gollum, but also remember he only tied the rope17300:12:41.860 --> 00:12:43.200lightly.17400:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.180So he may be saying things, but he would never carry them out as is proved17500:12:48.180 --> 00:12:51.560later on when he spares Gollum at the key moment.17600:12:52.800 --> 00:12:56.220Sam's intention to stay awake doesn't work out.17700:12:57.240 --> 00:13:04.120When he wakes up having slept well, I like this fact that he curses himself17800:13:04.120 --> 00:13:11.080with various reproachful names from the gaffer's large paternal word horde.17900:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.780So word horde is a very sort of sound like an Anglo-Saxon word, but you know18000:13:16.780 --> 00:13:18.000exactly what's going on here.18100:13:18.440 --> 00:13:23.340And this is the association with Sam is always goes back to the shire, the18200:13:23.340 --> 00:13:26.340gaffer, his potatoes, that is the grounding.18300:13:27.400 --> 00:13:31.640And one of the things I would say about the world building here is that the18400:13:31.640 --> 00:13:37.380contrast in the places is always made to by evoking something else.18500:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.800And there's this hint of the shire with Sam always.18600:13:41.040 --> 00:13:46.520And you'll see this chapter refers back to earlier places in the chapter to18700:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.960say, there was that, but this is worse.18800:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.780There was that, but this is worse.18900:13:51.280 --> 00:13:54.500It's like a link, paper chain link across this chapter.19000:13:55.120 --> 00:14:00.740In terms of the power dynamics, Sam is really the quartermaster.19100:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.160He's the one counting the food, saying how much have we got left?19200:14:05.420 --> 00:14:06.460Will it get us back?19300:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.080But here there is an enormous change.19400:14:10.220 --> 00:14:16.300It's one of those break moments in the narrative, which is sometimes easy to19500:14:16.300 --> 00:14:16.920miss.19600:14:17.560 --> 00:14:23.700It's on page 231 of the three volume version of Lord of the Rings, where19700:14:23.700 --> 00:14:31.280Frodo's language to Sam shifts because he's saying to Sam that actually we're19800:14:31.280 --> 00:14:34.600on a suicide mission, basically.19900:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.980But Samwise Gamgee, my dear Hobbit, here's the change.20000:14:40.100 --> 00:14:46.300Indeed, Sam, my dearest Hobbit, friend of friends, not servant, friend of20100:14:46.300 --> 00:14:46.780friends.20200:14:47.340 --> 00:14:51.420I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that.20300:14:52.700 --> 00:14:53.800Very moving.20400:14:54.220 --> 00:14:59.080He's saying it's about achieving the mission, not about our own survival.20500:15:00.100 --> 00:15:04.100And Sam's response is very touching.20600:15:04.400 --> 00:15:09.660He reminds me here of a disciple to John the Baptist or Jesus, that kind of20700:15:09.660 --> 00:15:15.140figure, the faithful servant with the person on this mission.20800:15:16.660 --> 00:15:20.240And he reaches out and touches Frodo affectionately.20900:15:20.940 --> 00:15:22.020He's weeping.21000:15:22.280 --> 00:15:28.280And then, before we get too maudlin and sentimental, he gets up, sort of clears21100:15:28.280 --> 00:15:32.960his throat, stamps around and tries to whistle to hide his emotion.21200:15:33.140 --> 00:15:37.980That sort of hiding the emotion is that restraint of the stiff upper lip.21300:15:38.660 --> 00:15:41.860He's not an English gent, obviously, but there is that sort of restraint of an21400:15:41.860 --> 00:15:46.160English man, which he is reflecting here.21500:15:46.520 --> 00:15:48.080He's not weeping and wailing.21600:15:48.260 --> 00:15:53.600He's holding it back, which makes us admire him all the more because he's being21700:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.680strong, when he's just realizing that he is very likely to die.21800:15:58.860 --> 00:16:07.000So, when Gollum comes back, you get this question, trust Smeagol now, which is21900:16:07.000 --> 00:16:07.680Gollum's question.22000:16:07.780 --> 00:16:12.420And that really is the question that presides in this chapter and in the next22100:16:12.420 --> 00:16:13.000few chapters.22200:16:13.180 --> 00:16:14.520Do they trust Smeagol?22300:16:14.700 --> 00:16:16.100Well, Sam, clearly not.22400:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.700Frodo, to a point.22500:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.620Then one of the unusual features in this chapter compared to the book is we get22600:16:25.620 --> 00:16:33.120one of the really short passages of description, but separated out by line22700:16:33.120 --> 00:16:33.620breaks.22800:16:33.920 --> 00:16:37.180It's quite striking when you find it on the page.22900:16:38.060 --> 00:16:43.800And this is the description of the marshes as they approach them.23000:16:43.840 --> 00:16:44.460I'll just read it.23100:16:44.500 --> 00:16:46.460It's only two or three sentences.23200:16:47.320 --> 00:16:53.060On either side and in front, wide fens and mires now lay, stretching away23300:16:53.060 --> 00:16:59.000southward and eastward into the dim light, mist curled and smote from dark and23400:16:59.000 --> 00:16:59.960noisome pools.23500:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.720The reek of them hung stifling in the air.23600:17:03.460 --> 00:17:08.740Far away, almost due south, the mountain walls of Mordor loomed, like a black23700:17:08.740 --> 00:17:13.440bar of rugged clouds floating above a dangerous fog-bound sea.23800:17:15.420 --> 00:17:17.040So, what is happening here?23900:17:17.099 --> 00:17:24.020Though visually, that separated paragraph is to make us almost stop and look at24000:17:24.020 --> 00:17:27.380this scenery as the hobbits are.24100:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.600It forces you to pause and take it all in.24200:17:31.860 --> 00:17:40.000One of the distinctive things that happens in Tolkien's passages of description24300:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.780are these moments of looking out across larger, vaster landscape.24400:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.200We've referred to it before, but there's this idea that Tolkien loved, the idea24500:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.220of the vistas beyond the vista, the places you don't see.24600:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.060And this is one of those.24700:17:58.140 --> 00:18:02.640We never actually really get to see that part of Mordor over the mountains24800:18:02.640 --> 00:18:03.020there.24900:18:03.160 --> 00:18:04.860We go further south when we're in Mordor.25000:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.920So, there's places we glimpse but don't ever see.25100:18:09.040 --> 00:18:12.960And that gives the sense of the expanse of Middle-earth and gives the depth to25200:18:12.960 --> 00:18:13.640the world-building.25300:18:14.540 --> 00:18:17.140And now we enter properly into the marshes.25400:18:17.860 --> 00:18:19.360Well, what are these marshes?25500:18:20.560 --> 00:18:23.800I was reading in the Companion to the Lord of the Rings, which I've been25600:18:23.800 --> 00:18:26.600referring to, Hammond and Scull, thank you very much.25700:18:27.020 --> 00:18:29.180And they suggest a number of sources.25800:18:29.800 --> 00:18:31.700They refer to H.25900:18:31.800 --> 00:18:36.200Rider Haggard's She, which we know Tolkien admired.26000:18:36.740 --> 00:18:41.520There's an old Gothic source, which I think he would be thrilled to know about26100:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.380because of his love for the Gothic literature.26200:18:44.860 --> 00:18:50.180But also, of course, there is the connection to the battle landscapes of26300:18:50.180 --> 00:18:51.140Northern France.26400:18:51.760 --> 00:18:58.520And they quote two particular ones that are very close to the descriptions here26500:18:58.520 --> 00:19:04.260by an officer called Alfred Bundy and the famous poet Siegfried Sassoon.26600:19:04.600 --> 00:19:09.040But of course, Tolkien wouldn't have needed to have read those diaries of poems26700:19:09.040 --> 00:19:12.240because he was there and he saw it himself.26800:19:13.140 --> 00:19:18.840And this whole chapter really is more literature when there comes to a lineup26900:19:18.840 --> 00:19:21.540of the great works of the First World War.27000:19:21.740 --> 00:19:23.440Lord of the Rings should be in it, really.27100:19:24.580 --> 00:19:27.900The Hobbits are now wholly in the hands of Gollum.27200:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.580And this is a very long strung out jeopardy.27300:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.900Remember, there always has to be something at stake in your story when you're27400:19:36.900 --> 00:19:37.240writing.27500:19:37.520 --> 00:19:42.020And in this one, it's the trust Sméagol or not question.27600:19:43.340 --> 00:19:47.500And perhaps we are as readers thinking, when is going to portray them or if at27700:19:47.500 --> 00:19:47.980all?27800:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.380But I think it's more of a question of when from the way he behaves, the sense27900:19:52.380 --> 00:19:57.160that he is barely restrained by this frail promise.28000:19:57.740 --> 00:20:03.720We get a shift here as well, where we move from Sam's point of view to a28100:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.560narratorial point of view, which isn't available to the Hobbits.28200:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.520Because they don't know.28300:20:11.080 --> 00:20:15.420They don't know that just over the ridge is the hard to Mordor and that this28400:20:15.420 --> 00:20:16.780was the field of the ancient battle.28500:20:17.220 --> 00:20:22.200So there's a moment here where we're moving to the narratorial stance.28600:20:22.760 --> 00:20:27.760But remember, the concept here is these are the reminiscences of the Hobbits28700:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.740later put together by Bilbo and Frodo.28800:20:32.000 --> 00:20:37.400So a later reflection on this, though it feels a bit like talking to me.28900:20:38.220 --> 00:20:44.560And there is a wonderful summing up of their dilemma by Sméagol.29000:20:44.860 --> 00:20:50.000This is where you've got a passage creating character, developing character,29100:20:50.080 --> 00:20:52.120but also telling us what's going on.29200:20:52.640 --> 00:20:53.960And it's just brilliantly done.29300:20:54.340 --> 00:21:00.700This is at the top of page 233, if you've got the same edition as me, because29400:21:00.700 --> 00:21:02.760they're basically saying, can't we go some other way?29500:21:03.940 --> 00:21:06.900And Gollum, this is where he gets to be the sarcastic.29600:21:07.720 --> 00:21:09.800Well, he's making a joke at their expense, really.29700:21:10.840 --> 00:21:12.260But it's very black humour.29800:21:14.180 --> 00:21:17.160He says, oh, no need at all to go that way.29900:21:17.540 --> 00:21:21.240Not if the Hobbits want to reach the Dark Mountains and go to see him very30000:21:21.240 --> 00:21:21.720quick.30100:21:23.580 --> 00:21:29.560And he goes on to say, to stress that the eye is watching.30200:21:30.020 --> 00:21:33.360This connects to a later passage about what Frodo is feeling.30300:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.440It's a little glimpse into the back story of how Sméagol was caught himself.30400:21:38.620 --> 00:21:41.100And he's saying he now knows other ways.30500:21:41.260 --> 00:21:46.620It's I know other ways, which possibly, Sméagol speaking, more difficult, not30600:21:46.620 --> 00:21:50.020so quick, but better if we don't want him to see.30700:21:50.200 --> 00:21:50.880Follow Sméagol.30800:21:51.460 --> 00:21:55.280He can take you through the marshes, through the mists, nice thick mists.30900:21:56.580 --> 00:22:01.760Follow Sméagol very carefully and you may go a long way, quite a long way,31000:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.660before he catches you.31100:22:03.660 --> 00:22:05.500Yes, perhaps.31200:22:06.060 --> 00:22:07.320Before he catches you.31300:22:07.560 --> 00:22:08.380Yes, perhaps.31400:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.640Keep undermining.31500:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.680This isn't a sense of a quest that's inevitably going to succeed.31600:22:14.540 --> 00:22:19.660And Sméagol is part of the undermining of the foundations of their hope.31700:22:20.700 --> 00:22:24.680So they go off in single file, Gollum, Sam, Frodo.31800:22:24.900 --> 00:22:29.660I'm just underlining that here because there is a change that comes later when31900:22:29.660 --> 00:22:33.620on the other side or getting towards the other side of these marshes, which32000:22:33.620 --> 00:22:39.240further emphasises the shift from Frodo being in control to Sam being more in32100:22:39.240 --> 00:22:39.780the forefront.32200:22:40.620 --> 00:22:42.820Sam has to look after Frodo and they shift position.32300:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.060But let's have a look at this wonderful descriptive prose of what it's like to32400:22:48.060 --> 00:22:50.160be out on the marshes.32500:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.860And it's done by summoning up what isn't there.32600:22:56.200 --> 00:23:00.600Cold, clammy winter still held sway in this forsaken country.32700:23:01.200 --> 00:23:07.420The only green was the scum of livid weed on the dark, greasy surfaces of the32800:23:07.420 --> 00:23:08.500sullen waters.32900:23:09.420 --> 00:23:15.580Dead grasses and rotting reeds loomed up in the mists like ragged shadows of33000:23:15.580 --> 00:23:17.220long forgotten summers.33100:23:18.600 --> 00:23:22.780Like ragged shadows of long forgotten summers.33200:23:23.140 --> 00:23:28.680So there's almost like a ghost of summer present in this haunted place.33300:23:29.420 --> 00:23:30.820Wonderful evocation.33400:23:32.120 --> 00:23:38.000And that contrast of what's not there is further evoked by mention of the sun.33500:23:38.780 --> 00:23:42.700Because the next paragraph goes, far above the rot and vapours of the world,33600:23:42.820 --> 00:23:47.700the sun was riding high and golden now in a serene country with its own floors33700:23:47.700 --> 00:23:48.960of dazzling foam.33800:23:49.520 --> 00:23:53.240But only a passing ghost of her could they see below.33900:23:54.860 --> 00:23:57.400So again, this idea of they're in a world of ghosts.34000:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.140Even the sun feels like a ghost.34100:23:59.660 --> 00:24:00.540I had to stop and think.34200:24:00.600 --> 00:24:03.380I was trying to work out if Tolkien ever flew.34300:24:05.180 --> 00:24:07.880Answers on a postcard because I'm not sure that he did.34400:24:08.360 --> 00:24:12.220But we know that his son was in the RAF, Christopher.34500:24:13.320 --> 00:24:16.580And there were obviously people have written about flying.34600:24:16.900 --> 00:24:23.100So he, Tolkien himself, didn't have that experience which most of us have of34700:24:23.100 --> 00:24:28.440looking out of the aeroplane to the sun being above and the clouds looking34800:24:28.440 --> 00:24:28.900beautiful.34900:24:29.040 --> 00:24:34.160But underneath we know that the world below is experiencing a grey and gloomy35000:24:34.160 --> 00:24:34.460day.35100:24:35.840 --> 00:24:37.740I have to keep thinking about that.35200:24:37.740 --> 00:24:38.880Did he ever fly?35300:24:40.020 --> 00:24:41.960Can't think that he did, but I might be wrong.35400:24:42.920 --> 00:24:50.860One of the descriptions here of them moving through this landscape is of the35500:24:50.860 --> 00:24:56.780three of them together, squatting like little hunted animals in the borders of35600:24:56.780 --> 00:24:58.820the great brown reed thicket.35700:24:59.380 --> 00:25:01.860This is just a reminder that hobbits aren't human.35800:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.720There is an element where they're more like, of course, they're a kind of35900:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.220human, but they hide quickly.36000:25:10.560 --> 00:25:12.640They've got these hairy feet.36100:25:12.800 --> 00:25:14.600There's something more creaturely about them.36200:25:15.240 --> 00:25:20.360And I remember listening to Martin Freeman talking about how he played Bilbo.36300:25:21.100 --> 00:25:24.300I think it must be in the extended edition extras.36400:25:24.920 --> 00:25:29.400And he thought about him as a hedgerow creature.36500:25:30.120 --> 00:25:31.760And you can see that in his performance.36600:25:31.960 --> 00:25:38.940He sort of slightly like a mole or like a wind in the willows creature aspect36700:25:38.940 --> 00:25:43.560to his performance when he's in Bag End.36800:25:43.960 --> 00:25:48.140It's quite interesting to sort of just have that sort of reminder that these36900:25:48.140 --> 00:25:52.980creatures are also in their own way, part of this landscape, a little37000:25:52.980 --> 00:25:53.460different.37100:25:54.580 --> 00:25:56.580And that's the moment where it just pops up again.37200:25:57.560 --> 00:26:01.480One of the most difficult things when you're writing a big epic like this is37300:26:01.480 --> 00:26:06.820keeping up with the chronology, particularly when you've got multiple different37400:26:06.820 --> 00:26:07.360stories.37500:26:08.420 --> 00:26:13.380So Tolkien had a scheme where he wrote everything down as to what was37600:26:13.380 --> 00:26:13.700happening.37700:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.200You shifted things about to try and make connections.37800:26:17.280 --> 00:26:22.460So in terms of where we are in the year, this is the end of February moving37900:26:22.460 --> 00:26:23.600into March.38000:26:24.040 --> 00:26:28.700February has 30 days in the Shire calendar, all months do.38100:26:29.520 --> 00:26:34.860And so we're moving from that end of winter into an uncertain spring.38200:26:35.540 --> 00:26:40.260And we'll see later that he tries to connect it to the other stories that are38300:26:40.260 --> 00:26:45.540happening by the overflight of the ringwraiths, but he doesn't quite manage to38400:26:45.540 --> 00:26:46.860find it at the right time.38500:26:47.140 --> 00:26:48.960So he has to abandon the idea.38600:26:49.600 --> 00:26:52.000But anyway, let's carry on looking at what's going on here.38700:26:52.430 --> 00:26:59.320So we've got now into the deeper into the marshes.38800:27:00.360 --> 00:27:07.240And we've got Sam as the one spotting the pale sheen of the lights, which38900:27:07.240 --> 00:27:09.380Gollum warns them are Trixie lights.39000:27:09.940 --> 00:27:14.380This, of course, is the Will-o'-the-Wisp, the idea of the marsh gases releasing39100:27:14.380 --> 00:27:15.540pale flames.39200:27:16.140 --> 00:27:21.340But they're also here more of a magical flame that is to do with the presence39300:27:21.340 --> 00:27:23.680of the dead creatures in the marsh as well.39400:27:24.700 --> 00:27:28.720I would say that eerie and ghost-like is the prevailing mood.39500:27:29.460 --> 00:27:34.440Again, when you're writing, if you're having lots of dark places, the stony,39600:27:34.620 --> 00:27:40.120impossible Eminweal, the ash heaps of Mordor, you don't want to do the same39700:27:40.120 --> 00:27:42.800kind of language for all of them.39800:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.960You want different lexical sets for each place.39900:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.740And this one, the prevailing mood, I think, is that of eerie, stagnant,40000:27:53.080 --> 00:27:54.580pungent, all those things.40100:27:55.300 --> 00:28:00.260We get the most horrific moment, which comes really more or less in the middle40200:28:00.260 --> 00:28:04.360of this chapter, where Frodo has wandered off.40300:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.320He's been at the back and he's fallen behind.40400:28:06.320 --> 00:28:09.960And he's in this kind of dream state, nightmarish state.40500:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.060But it's not from his point of view that we see that.40600:28:14.680 --> 00:28:20.300It's Sam who is the one who goes back and he falls down and sees what Frodo has40700:28:20.300 --> 00:28:20.680seen.40800:28:21.340 --> 00:28:23.200And it's interesting the way this is written.40900:28:24.340 --> 00:28:29.420In the film, they do it, Frodo falls right into the pool and he's got jugged41000:28:29.420 --> 00:28:32.620down by these sort of eerie creatures.41100:28:32.860 --> 00:28:34.000It's all very much in your face.41200:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.780Here, it's actually spread out between the three of them.41300:28:38.460 --> 00:28:43.700Sam falls and sees, and it's described as a sort of grimy window that he's41400:28:43.700 --> 00:28:44.200looking through.41500:28:44.300 --> 00:28:47.540But we don't then get a sentence saying what he saw.41600:28:47.800 --> 00:28:52.380We get his exclamation about faces in the water.41700:28:54.440 --> 00:29:00.280Gollum gives the explanation of where they came from, the battle, and that the41800:29:00.280 --> 00:29:03.300marshes have eaten up the graves of the fallen warriors.41900:29:04.540 --> 00:29:12.360And it's Frodo who gives us the gothic poetry description of the eeriness of42000:29:12.360 --> 00:29:13.980what you see in the water.42100:29:14.140 --> 00:29:18.300It's worth reading because it feels, the cadence is very haunting.42200:29:19.140 --> 00:29:24.320In the pools, when the candles were lit, they lie in all the pools, pale faces42300:29:24.320 --> 00:29:27.360deep, deep under the dark water.42400:29:28.040 --> 00:29:35.500I saw them, grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad faces, many faces,42500:29:35.900 --> 00:29:42.180proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair, but all foul, all rotting, all42600:29:42.180 --> 00:29:42.600dead.42700:29:43.520 --> 00:29:45.120A fell light is in them.42800:29:45.800 --> 00:29:47.560Rearrange that, it becomes a poem.42900:29:48.040 --> 00:29:58.000Repetition, the sense of internal rhymes is one of his heightened moments that43000:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.940Tolkien gives in description through the voice of Frodo.43100:30:01.780 --> 00:30:03.940And it's interesting that Gollum picks it up.43200:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.720It feels almost a bit like a Greek play with the chorus coming in, if Gollum43300:30:08.720 --> 00:30:09.960can be thought of as the chorus.43400:30:10.540 --> 00:30:12.660He goes, yes, yes, all dead, all rotten.43500:30:12.840 --> 00:30:16.420He sort of re-echoes what the hero has just said.43600:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.900Elves and men and orcs are dead marshes.43700:30:19.180 --> 00:30:21.340There was a great battle long ago and so on.43800:30:21.960 --> 00:30:27.500And he gives this echo of what Frodo has said, an explanation of where they43900:30:27.500 --> 00:30:28.200came from.44000:30:29.040 --> 00:30:36.300And then he moves into a typical Gollum moment of having tried to reach them.44100:30:36.540 --> 00:30:38.060Sam suspects he tried to eat them.44200:30:38.180 --> 00:30:41.760Remember, there's this theme of who's food for whom in this chapter.44300:30:42.600 --> 00:30:48.980And then he ends with this weird off-color note of Gollum the jester, where he44400:30:48.980 --> 00:30:54.380says that if the hobbits aren't careful, they will go down and join them and44500:30:54.380 --> 00:30:56.220light little candles.44600:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.560Don't look at the lights.44700:31:00.760 --> 00:31:05.520So I suppose I added Greek chorus to the list of things that Gollum is doing in44800:31:05.520 --> 00:31:05.980this chapter.44900:31:07.140 --> 00:31:09.880At this point, we get the overflight of one of the ringwraiths.45000:31:10.360 --> 00:31:17.060And I mentioned how in this world building, Tolkien is trying to connect this45100:31:17.060 --> 00:31:18.200to the other stories.45200:31:18.740 --> 00:31:21.500He found that his chronology was out of sync.45300:31:22.120 --> 00:31:24.720We know the ring goes into the fire on the 25th of March.45400:31:24.820 --> 00:31:26.420We're now right at the beginning of March.45500:31:26.500 --> 00:31:27.460He hasn't got long really.45600:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.920And the events don't quite link up.45700:31:32.100 --> 00:31:38.940So what we get instead is an overflight which then goes back into Mordor.45800:31:39.740 --> 00:31:44.080I think a reader will anyway make the connection because they have just come45900:31:44.080 --> 00:31:48.520out of reading a book where the ringwraiths appeared a couple of times in the46000:31:48.520 --> 00:31:51.060air, scaring those characters.46100:31:52.080 --> 00:31:58.120And perhaps it's more like thinking about a general air service, like in the46200:31:58.120 --> 00:32:03.840Second World War, when you heard the drone of the approaching Luftwaffe.46300:32:04.360 --> 00:32:06.820It didn't really matter if it was the same plane as your friend saw.46400:32:06.920 --> 00:32:14.600It's the same overflight, the same sense of threat coming from the evil nation46500:32:14.600 --> 00:32:21.940with the risk of being discovered or destroyed if spotted.46600:32:23.740 --> 00:32:28.220And of course, this must have felt very close to what Tolkien was experiencing46700:32:28.220 --> 00:32:33.220at the time because he was on fire watch as an air raid warden at this time.46800:32:33.360 --> 00:32:36.800And he's writing this in Oxford because of the fear that there would be a46900:32:36.800 --> 00:32:38.660bombing campaign in Oxford.47000:32:39.820 --> 00:32:45.160So after the ringwraiths overflow, there is a shift in everybody's47100:32:45.160 --> 00:32:46.440relationship.47200:32:47.200 --> 00:32:48.220Remember this triangle?47300:32:49.260 --> 00:32:52.560This is what this chapter is about, this triangle of relationships.47400:32:53.760 --> 00:32:59.380Gollum becomes more fawning and less reliable in some ways because he's been47500:32:59.380 --> 00:33:00.520reminded of the threat.47600:33:01.380 --> 00:33:07.600Frodo becomes silent, lost in this nightmarish world that he's in, and he's47700:33:07.600 --> 00:33:08.100vanishing.47800:33:09.060 --> 00:33:13.020The idea that he is getting a foothold in the wraith world.47900:33:14.280 --> 00:33:21.120And it is shown here by him becoming, well, no longer driving what's happening.48000:33:22.620 --> 00:33:27.080Sam puts him in front of him because he's worried he's going to stumble off the48100:33:27.080 --> 00:33:28.260path or just stop walking.48200:33:28.800 --> 00:33:30.600And we get a very sudden shift.48300:33:31.520 --> 00:33:35.040I think it's the only one in this chapter where we suddenly move to the point48400:33:35.040 --> 00:33:40.320of view of Frodo, where we hear how heavy the ring is feeling, how he is48500:33:40.320 --> 00:33:45.040obsessed or feels invigilated by the eye watching him.48600:33:46.560 --> 00:33:53.380And there is another psychological battle going on here, which is really where48700:33:53.380 --> 00:33:54.640it's being fought for Frodo.48800:33:54.800 --> 00:33:58.740It's internal, as well as the external struggle, his is internal.48900:33:59.860 --> 00:34:02.020And we get a little glimpse of that here.49000:34:03.080 --> 00:34:05.020But we do return back to Sam.49100:34:05.680 --> 00:34:11.440So we reach almost the last part of this chapter, which is the pit.49200:34:12.440 --> 00:34:17.179So they're coming out of the marshes and it becomes a landscape which is49300:34:17.179 --> 00:34:19.780described a lot in terms of how it affects the throat.49400:34:20.340 --> 00:34:23.340First World War, of course, used poison gas.49500:34:24.139 --> 00:34:26.520And I feel there's an echo of this here.49600:34:26.980 --> 00:34:27.940There's a bitter reek.49700:34:28.500 --> 00:34:29.880Their mouths are parched.49800:34:30.179 --> 00:34:33.340They've been a long way since they had fresh good water.49900:34:34.820 --> 00:34:37.159And it's called No Man's Land.50000:34:37.900 --> 00:34:42.480That is a First World War term as well, No Man's Land, written slightly50100:34:42.480 --> 00:34:42.880different.50200:34:43.800 --> 00:34:47.560But No Man's Land is what Tolkien decided to call it.50300:34:48.679 --> 00:34:52.980And remember, I've talked about the paper chain of you thought that was bad,50400:34:53.060 --> 00:34:53.900this is worse.50500:34:54.520 --> 00:34:57.520Here, that's what they're thinking.50600:34:57.680 --> 00:35:03.960The land in front of Mordor, like the desolation of Smaug in the Hobbit, this50700:35:03.960 --> 00:35:04.520is worse.50800:35:05.280 --> 00:35:13.640The area in front of Mordor is worse because in the marshes, there's this50900:35:13.640 --> 00:35:17.260beautiful phrase, there was a haggard phantom of green spring.51000:35:17.660 --> 00:35:19.740Something was growing there despite everything.51100:35:20.700 --> 00:35:22.880But here nothing lived.51200:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.820And even the sunlight was defiled.51300:35:28.220 --> 00:35:33.280And the characters are described as little squeaking ghosts that wandered among51400:35:33.280 --> 00:35:35.660the ash heaps of the Dark Lord.51500:35:36.200 --> 00:35:42.520It does remind me of First World War poems, Wilfred Owen, that kind of image of51600:35:42.520 --> 00:35:48.060the small person lost in the No Man's Land in the nightmare world.51700:35:49.200 --> 00:35:54.900They retreat to the pit, which is described as a foul sump of oily many51800:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.040-coloured ooze.51900:35:56.200 --> 00:36:03.260Now, I think this is definitely a First World War image because the oil, of52000:36:03.260 --> 00:36:09.660course, machinery of war, the tanks and so on, artillery, is one of the most52100:36:09.660 --> 00:36:13.360obvious sources of an oily ooze and sump is an oil sump.52200:36:13.540 --> 00:36:18.240So, it's laying underneath this, though of course, you can get a natural world52300:36:18.240 --> 00:36:19.120oily sheen.52400:36:20.540 --> 00:36:25.020And we're not wrong to think that because in a 1968 interview quoted in the52500:36:25.020 --> 00:36:32.200Companion Guide, Tolkien told the Birmingham Post that he remembered miles and52600:36:32.200 --> 00:36:39.340miles of seething, tortured earth, perhaps best described in the chapter about52700:36:39.340 --> 00:36:40.780the approaches to Mordor.52800:36:41.560 --> 00:36:43.900It was a searing experience.52900:36:44.240 --> 00:36:46.680That's what he remembers of northern France.53000:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.360For northern France, read the land just in front of Mordor.53100:36:52.800 --> 00:36:58.460And he goes on to say in this text that the gully now seemed a place of peace53200:36:58.460 --> 00:36:59.340and beauty.53300:36:59.540 --> 00:37:05.100So, we've gone from the marshes seeming a haggard spring to that gully where53400:37:05.100 --> 00:37:11.780they got fresh water being relatively idyllic compared to this.53500:37:12.500 --> 00:37:15.980So, when you're creating a world, don't forget to use the elements within the53600:37:15.980 --> 00:37:20.500world to push the experience from bad to worse to even worse.53700:37:21.160 --> 00:37:23.680It's a very effective strategy.53800:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.740Then we get the great Gollum and Smeagol debate.53900:37:28.880 --> 00:37:29.700It's interesting here.54000:37:29.800 --> 00:37:35.100I mean, made famous by the film, brilliantly done, brilliantly read, obviously54100:37:35.100 --> 00:37:40.140by Andy Serkis in the audio version, but also reads brilliantly if you're just54200:37:40.140 --> 00:37:40.800reading the book.54300:37:41.720 --> 00:37:44.880One of the things that is interesting in this sort of almost like political54400:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.540debate and sort of trying to persuade himself to do something to break his word54500:37:49.540 --> 00:37:50.840to Frodo.54600:37:51.560 --> 00:37:57.620One of the interesting things here is what it reveals about Gollum is what he54700:37:57.620 --> 00:37:59.480thinks he would do with power.54800:37:59.920 --> 00:38:06.720There is an element of innocence, childlike, toddlerlike innocence to Gollum,54900:38:06.980 --> 00:38:12.520which is part of his tragedy because what he wants to do with the power is not55000:38:12.520 --> 00:38:13.260be hurt.55100:38:14.160 --> 00:38:18.040He wants to be strong in the way that someone who is bullied wants to be55200:38:18.040 --> 00:38:18.380strong.55300:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.340What he thinks is the best life he could live is having lots of fish.55400:38:26.420 --> 00:38:30.160So, his wants are relatively innocent.55500:38:31.890 --> 00:38:34.550Well, within Gollum terms, that is.55600:38:35.510 --> 00:38:43.070And he does here sound like a drug addict, desperate for the next fix of the55700:38:43.070 --> 00:38:46.810precious, which is why he isn't going to be reliable.55800:38:47.070 --> 00:38:51.270He can't keep his word because he is not reformed.55900:38:53.290 --> 00:38:58.250And also in this, when you're thinking about planting seeds for future56000:38:58.250 --> 00:39:04.890chapters, Tolkien drops in here the mysterious she who might help him.56100:39:05.750 --> 00:39:11.570Unanswered questions are one reason to make a reader move on.56200:39:11.670 --> 00:39:15.850You want to find out why something is happening or what it's referring to.56300:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.330And this is one of those times where he just drops it in.56400:39:19.970 --> 00:39:21.030Who is this she?56500:39:21.210 --> 00:39:22.110That's Sam's thought.56600:39:22.990 --> 00:39:26.610But he can't wait to find an answer because Frodo is at risk.56700:39:27.850 --> 00:39:32.590And he pretends to wake up so that Gollum moves back from Frodo.56800:39:33.430 --> 00:39:40.090And there's a sort of change in mood here from Frodo, who is refreshed for56900:39:40.090 --> 00:39:42.310once, feels he's coming to an end.57000:39:42.470 --> 00:39:45.670He's almost like, okay, almost near the gates, right, you know, won't be long57100:39:45.670 --> 00:39:46.550now kind of thing.57200:39:47.110 --> 00:39:53.310And in a way, this refers back to what Tolkien had thought in his letters to57300:39:53.310 --> 00:39:53.650Christopher.57400:39:53.890 --> 00:39:57.890He vastly underestimates how much narrative he's got to go.57500:39:59.250 --> 00:40:03.010So perhaps he's having a little joke at his own expense here of saying, oh57600:40:03.010 --> 00:40:04.690yeah, you thought you almost finished, did you?57700:40:05.810 --> 00:40:08.130So Frodo is standing in front of the author here.57800:40:09.210 --> 00:40:12.010But there is another presence here.57900:40:12.690 --> 00:40:16.870There's a third overflight of one of the ringways at this point, which really58000:40:16.870 --> 00:40:18.550spooks Gollum.58100:40:19.910 --> 00:40:27.730And this particular chapter ends with a kind of forced march where they have to58200:40:27.730 --> 00:40:29.630make Gollum move on.58300:40:29.750 --> 00:40:34.030Frodo has to get stern with him because he doesn't know who he's more scared58400:40:34.030 --> 00:40:40.150of, breaking his word, the ringwraiths, Mordor in front of him, memories of the58500:40:40.150 --> 00:40:40.510past.58600:40:40.630 --> 00:40:43.570He is a tortured soul, clearly.58700:40:45.610 --> 00:40:49.550And this is reflected in the weary end of this chapter.58800:40:50.010 --> 00:40:56.950It ends in a sort of ominous, eerie silence where they're left hearing nothing58900:40:56.950 --> 00:40:59.730but the wind hissing in their ears.59000:41:00.970 --> 00:41:06.970And that takes us right up to the gates of Mordor, where if you're reading for59100:41:06.970 --> 00:41:11.910the first time, you might think you're almost there, but there's a lot more to59200:41:11.910 --> 00:41:12.750come, isn't there?59300:41:13.710 --> 00:41:16.970So I hope you've enjoyed the passage of the marshes.59400:41:17.450 --> 00:41:22.610And I look forward to returning to chapter three to see what happens when the59500:41:22.610 --> 00:41:24.010Black Gate is closed.59600:41:24.470 --> 00:41:27.050We're actually coming to one of my favorite bits of the book.59700:41:27.770 --> 00:41:32.790And amongst all the darkness, there is a wonderful moment of light.59800:41:33.850 --> 00:41:35.250Thank you very much for listening.59900:41:40.240 --> 00:41:45.340Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford60000:41:45.340 --> 00:41:46.520Centre for Fantasy.60100:41:47.080 --> 00:41:51.100Visit oxfordcentreforfantasy.org to join in the fun.60200:41:51.700 --> 00:41:57.180Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our60300:41:57.180 --> 00:41:58.780shop for great gifts.60400:41:59.500 --> 00:42:04.560Tell a 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