Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? - The Return of the King Movie Reconsidered

Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre. For fantasy, my name is Julia Golding. I'm the director of the centre but I make my most of my living as an author and today I'm joined by Jacob Renekker who has come back for a third visit so we can discuss the films of Peter Jackson's version of Lord of the Rings and if it's number three, where have we reached Jacob? Return of the King. Oh yeah, well you see he's obviously an expert because he gets the question. I heard one and took me a second and I was like I'm just one, two, K, yes, the Return of the King, yeah. So what we're doing in these podcast is looking back with the perspective of the 20 years on. We're thinking particularly about the creative choices because we're about the writing really of these and the filmmaking so we're thinking about where the room is to do a different adaptation if anyone's going to take you on in the next decade or so but also what actually happened back 20 years ago, the choice is the casting, the perfect moments and so on. So first of all Jacob, this is a bit of a softball for you. Where does this come in your line up at the films? Yeah, three. Yeah, we mentioned this before that the first, it's hard with between the first and the last and then the install mix that wraps up. So yes, I'm all say, I'll say first because but only barely edging out fellowship. At this moment, I will say just right now and then preserving the ability to change that in five minutes from now. Okay, so for me, it's my second favorite but it has the majority of my favorite moments. So that may seem a bit counterintuitive but there are also some bits I don't like in it. So you know, it sort of goes in the middle, it's the seesaw point in the middle. So first question for you is what would you say about the overall choices that they made in these things like how the new culture of Gondor was realised and those long stretches in Mordor, the big things about the film. Yeah, those were good. I mean, visually, of course, visually with Gondor, the set was incredible. And I thought, yeah, those are the costuming as well, right? It really seemed like a unified kingdom right there. So, yeah, so I appreciate it, and that kind of in the the flightness, right, of all of that and the shininess of the plate armor. Now whether or not, plate armor was something that Tolkien imagined is for Gondor might be a bit of a debate, but at least there was that, you know, saying a shininess, brightness, contrasting, you know, your scenes of Mordor with the dark, you know, darker red redder palette there. So, yeah, so I thought it was a good contrast, but even though you have Gondor, it's still not perfectly white and shiny, right? It's this seems like it's decaying, right? Especially with the image of the tree there in that courtyard, you kind of this white pristine, almost sterilized courtyard, but it's kind of falling apart. So, I thought it did a good job of showing contrasting the, you know, a light and dark, but even with the light, it wasn't and you know, kind of unsullied light. It was, you know, there cracks and fissures showing that this is a kingdom that's clearly in decline, but juxtaposed to Mordor makes it, I think, seem brighter by contrast, but still that you see bits of that Mordor, you know, the kind of corruption that are there even in the kingdom. Yeah, it's very much a bone white, isn't it? Yeah, right, right. It's the black and white aesthetic to the the great hall, which sets the tone. And I think that it reminds me very much of the Abbey's and the architecture of northern France, even though it's a sort of Mediterranean feel, I believe, that they were trying to create, particularly places like Morsamie Shell, which is clearly an inspiration for the way that Minnesteria sort of rises up. I think that, think your back, I didn't think this at the time, but it's something I thought since. One of the things which I feel somebody could do if they're going, they're trying to find a room for how do I make this different is that Minnesteria stops very abruptly at the wall, whereas in the book, there's a reference to the deep, not deep in more, but a wall around the field, plus evidence of farming and that kind of thing. And if you think of something equivalent in real human history like the field of Waterloo, some of the skirmishes took place in farmsteads and places like that. So you could actually make it feel more real by actually suggesting a city that is connected to something other than a big grassy plain. So that's the one thing which didn't bother me at the time. And I know that it's much simpler to put CGI on a landscape, which is just basically grass, but I did think that there's an element there where it doesn't feel, it feels like a fantasy place rather than a real place as a result. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that for me in going back to two towers for a moment, I think some of the most effective moments, we're just tiny moments where you have at, right, where we got to Rohan, and you see villagers that are being terrorized, right? And you can see these children being placed on a horse by a weeping mother. So it's kind of every person who is, what is it like for, you know, quote, normal people to live in this world, whereas usually we're having this heightened sense of characters, you know, it's your arrogance, it's your gametes, your leg illnesses, your hobbits are kind of thrown in there, but still they're kind of held higher as kind of larger than my characters. But then to see, you know, dirty weeping mothers who are trying to save their children. For me, that was, I think, deepened the impact of the nature of the threat and the evil that is actually happening here. And so you're right with Gondor, if it's just they're all kind of inside of this fortress already, you don't get as much of a sense. So I didn't connect with the people that lived in Gondor. I was it. Yeah, I'm sure that's a time thing because there's wonderful material in the book, which let's imagine someone's doing a miniseries as opposed to a film. There's the the father and son that Pippin makes, Speregond, and so you see the war from the perspective of an ordinary soldier who has an important role to play in saving Faramir and his son who has an important little role, but a little important role to help carry messages and in the end, help save Mary by carrying a message. But it humanizes the war and also Pippin goes with the son to see the arrival of the armies and you get a sense of it being just more than, you know, Denathor and Faramir. I mean, there's a bigger society. It makes Gondor and it's surrounding land seem bigger. So again, this is only something you would do if you had the luxury of a bigger palette rather than a film you've got to get people in and out. It's a massive amount of story to tell, but there does seem to me to be some really exciting material that's not covered, which could could go in the miniseries. There we go. There is such a thing in our lifetimes. So that's Gondor. What about the way more Gondor is handled, because that I think is a real challenge because it's meant to be hard and it's meant to be that, that just relentless suffering, but putting that into a film, of course, means that you don't want your audience to suffer or just the sameness. I think I would imagine it's like probably the most difficult thing to do. So what did you think of the Mordor parts? Yeah, I thought they did a good job of intercutting the two bad struggles that are happening. So I thought that that was a good use of intercuts to keep the audience from getting bogged down in that oppressiveness of Mordor, because really that's I think the sense that I got this time when I was watching it was a kind of a suffocation or oppressiveness, because you can almost, the air is hot. It seems like, right? And so you're almost drowning in air and the weight of what Frodo's carrying and yeah, so in one way, if you would have just focused on the Mordor portion for longer portions, and yeah, I can see people like that becoming a bit tedious, but I thought the way that they were kind of flashing back and forth between the two events was good, as well as, you know, thematically as it's following some of those themes of struggles, leadership, and then by contrast as well, right, with Eric Warren, as you know, King and Leading mustering this giant army with Sam and Frodo. So visually going back and forth between the scope and scale, because on the one hand, you have this massive kind of traditionally epic battle feel where the stakes are actually lower than the smaller scale battle. That's where the stakes are at their highest or almost, you know, cosmic in scope. And so seeing both of those kind of going back and forth, juggling those, the dissonance between the, yeah, the weight of the struggle and the degree of the stakes for both of those was something that was more pronounced in my most recent rewatch. Yeah, I think that one of the things I appreciate is the quite daring, but I think very good use of little touches of humour in the Hobbit story. I'm thinking of the moment when Sam is going up the stairs to say Frodo from the tower, and he's making this sort of noise, which echoes, and they're expecting this enormous warrior to approach, and it's just a little little Hobbit, and he strikes a blow for his gaffer. I mean, those moments of heroic behaviour, but with a lovely smile of the shy value, I think a really good way of doing it. There's another moment when they get caught up in their mistaken for orcs, and they get caught up in the march, and they're trying to escape from the column that's going to the battlefront, because they asked the wrong way, and Frodo's sort of saying, hit me, hit me, and he's sort of, there's the comedy of them having this moment where they're using their Hobbit intelligence to escape from it, and it's so I think very beautifully done. I think granted, it's difficult material because of its darkness, and it's actually just two characters, and then obviously golem at the end, but I think that they did really well on that, so hats off to the script writers and the film people for actually doing that bit. What's interesting compared to the book is there are some little moments where they get pursued by named orcs in the book, which I always enjoy reading, because they also give you a moment when Frodo and Sam over here, what might be going on outside, which I think is a very good reading experience, but I can see why you may not bother with those, as you don't want to string it out too much, it's hard enough, I can see the decisions that were taken there. Okay, so Jacob, what are your perfect moments in the film, where you just thought, yeah, this is everything it could have been. There's a few of those, there's one, visually, when Frodo and Sam and Golem are towards the beginning of the film when they've left Oskilia, and they're passing the statue of the defaced king, and the head of the king is laying on the side there, and it's been replaced with some lion-bound rock that's just teetering there. That was a great depiction of what's happening here in the combination that we saw with Saruman, with this industry, metal, artificial, kind of serving the natural, more grand nature of that world, and you see that statue, it kind of looks horrific, and then you see the head there on the ground, but then Sam points attention to that, and says, look, the king has his crown once more, right? That might be Frodo. I think it might be Frodo, isn't it? Is it Frodo? I thought that Sam is mentioning that two Frodo, because there's that ray of light that strikes, and Frodo's kind of, I think, Sullen, as he is for most of the film, from that point, I could be wrong. This might be the tie-breaker question between us, right? Anyway, one of them says he's crowned again. One of them says, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. So I think just that beautiful moment of hope, and what's, you know, that you're anticipating this kind of like long slog, but then you have that moment, and it just, yeah, was visually just, this time around, just kind of struck me as just kind of a little note of hope to keep you going, knowing where they're going, and what's happening there. So I was, that was one of mine. There's, yeah, a couple other ones, but I'd love to hear one of yours. Okay, so I have this, I said this is one of my favorite film for best moments. In there is definitely the charge of the hero. Just, I mean, the excitement, I can remember my children when they were younger. Well, even now, I'm sure they get excited. Just waiting for there are here him to appear on the horizon, and then that fantastic speech, which is from Tolkien by Bernard Hill of Theodin, it's just such a wonderful moment of sort of raises the spirits, and I think it's that time when film really works, you're caught in it, and you right, you feel like you're riding down the hill with them because the camera work is on a track, and it's going really quickly, and you feel like you're moving with them. I think that is one of my favorite sequences. That's a great, yeah, that one's great, and there's a couple, the other kind of army-related one of, you know, Erragorn's speech to the soldiers at the Black Gate, is another one that always kind of... Oh no, I hate that. Was that one of you that you hated? That's my fail. I mean, talk about, you're trying to get people to go on basically as sort of nightmare, probably dying mission, and you say, oh, you know, there will be a day of shattered spears, and you're going to be horribly killed. Then he says, not that day, and I just, I really dislike that. We are all how in my family when that comes on. But that happens, oh. So for me, that is in the, you should have stuck closer to Tolkien. But you like it. I mean, this is where you see, we're trying the point of having a discussion. Is a discussion, right? You like that, do you? Right. I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, it's a, yeah, it's a failed, you know, a failed mission, it's a suicide mission, and just finding some sort of hope, right, that the day that you're holding, right, by all the hold there, that you're standing for for for something. How do you keep somebody's hopes up in the face of the hopeless? I think, yeah, I, I, I like it. I'm, but I'm also easily persuaded by rousing political speeches. So that could, that could be part of it. Then the, then his, you know, his, and then there's that pot, you know, there's after his speech, but then when, when Eric going to say, you know, for Frodo and charging into battle, you know, the first on the field to go into that. So I see that kind of as a continuation in my mind that exists. There's that speech. And then, because then it cuts away from that, but then I see that mentally as that speech. And then basically he's then charging into battle as kind of the climax of that. But that's how my imagination works. So, okay, I got another good, not the favorite bits, which is the lighting of the beacons. And this is partly to do with the fantastic Howard Shore score that I'm depicted. And again, this particular film, I always associate very much with communal watching in a family context with us all being really excited and involved. Unlike the, it's just this film, I think has that quality to it. And there is a spot where the light is going to light up on the horizon. As the camera goes across his fantastic New Zealand, middle earth landscape, and you try and think, you know, where some poor guy up the top of the mountain with his torch going to be next. But it's just got a feeling of the connect connects the two locations, which is a very simple device, but it has that majesty to it and sense of the vastness of the worlds. I just love that bit. And I'd love that piece of music. It's probably might be one of my favorite themes from the whole of the trilogy. Yeah, yeah. And that's something that you can only do in film, right? That is difficult to capture that same scope with the sound, right? So the visuals, the sweeping visuals accompanied by that swelling score is something, yeah, that I think they leverage really well in this film adaptation to give you a sense of the grandeur and the importance of that particular moment. So yeah, agree. Agreed. I mean, I can go on. I can go on. I'll just do one, yeah. There's so many, so there's several Sam and Frodo moments that are just incredible. But one that I think visually and with the scoring that I think worked really well is when, you know, so Sam and Frodo are just by themselves at this point, kind of the final stretch there, and they're clawing their way up Mountain Dune. At that point, Frodo and Sam, you know, Sam's kind of laying there and Frodo kind of gets up and he's clawing himself up and then he collapses and Sam's coming up. But as Frodo is climbing up and kind of by himself now, you hear the shyer pipes that start going in this bleak landscape is he's, you know, giving this last ounces of energy and just that sound of the shyer pipes is also incongruous with these, you know, destructive, oppressive, dark, suffocating surroundings and then Sam's lying in right when he comes in. The, you know, I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you. But then you come with that into the west kind of theme that comes swelling up behind him during that moment. So it's just the use of yeah, the score there was deeply moving, I think really adds to that an already powerful moment that was there right from from from the books, but just adding that that sound and the kind of, again, linking and what they're doing the two of them here in this desolate landscape from this verdant peaceful landscape of the shyer linking that with those pipes is just really, really effective, I felt for me at least. I mean, we could just go on raving about the good moments because there are plenty of them and I think that almost every character has a really good moment. I'm thinking of Pippin singing. So I don't like the rather over playing the John Noble Denner thought of the blood coming out of his mouth. That's the kind of, yeah, we get it easy, but yeah. But the sweetness of the song with the montage of the the cavalry riding towards a hopeless impossible aim of trying to retake Osgiliath. I think that's that's very good. And Mary, of course, has his his moments in the battle helping out when he also has her best moments. So, you know, there's some fantastic really, I think they've actually have done those moments really well, the whole Palenau Fields aspect and the the way that the narrative of the battle is told because battles are confusing and a lot of it in the book, of course, is done as a song by the Bards of Rohan afterwards. So there's a they haven't, you know, in a sense the they've tidied it all up into a narrative. And I think Peter Jackson does have a very good skill of making it so we can follow from character to character in a battle. So you don't lose where you are. And that is that's incredibly difficult to do, I'm sure. You know, I think that's whereas in the Hobbit, if I can just sort of step out of lockdown, I found that the back of the five arm is it just went on far too long. I thought some of the it was overblown. There were too many battlefields, it just kind of it's went all over the place. This one, it seemed to be server narrative purpose all the time, rather than here's another cool trick I can do with the chariot. And the olephalms are pretty good. I think we mentioned last time that the legolas downing the olephal was a good sequence because it was earned by the role he was playing in the battle rather. Right, right. So let's think about some of the differences between the book and the film. A bearing in mind, we are acknowledging you can't do everything. But it does start, there's two multiple starts and multiple ends, which I think we should talk about. Of the starts, I think the very first start is with smegel and eagle fishing from a boat, which is a surprising start, which I think is quite a good way of surprising the audience. I do remember finding the violence of actually quite an extended scene of somebody throttling somebody else quite difficult, particularly watching it with a family. It was one of the scenes I would, here comes the mum. I would skip that and also skip Sheila just because of the nightmare factor for the kids. Sheila, I think, is earned. The smegel and eagle thing because it's man on the hobbit on the hobbit does seem to be away from the more fantasy cartoon violence. So I, yeah, it's problematic. I can see why he wanted it, but I don't enjoy that. I don't enjoy that scene. There you go. Yes, yeah, I agree. It is difficult to watch and I do. So, and this is something I'm sure we'll talk about at length a little bit later, but showing violence in the shire, in a shire-related landscape, something showing the violence that can't take place there because of the ring or as a result of the ring that evil can work its way into the most pastoral of settings because of this object of power. So I can see, again, like you said, I can see why they put it in there, but it is, but you're absolutely right that it is kind of a departure from like human elf dwarf hobbit on ork violence or cape troll or right. Usually you're not dealing with humans. The only time you really get human on human as a little bit in two towers where you see characters with warm tongue and some of what he's doing there, but and Denathor is kind of a human on human villainous character in the films. This is what you're seeing visually, but you're right it is. It is a departure. It is unexpected and difficult. Yeah, I probably wouldn't, for my thinking, on my little one, I won't have him watching that. It's true though, isn't it? I will mind it growing up now, but at the time when they were sort of older children, you know, you're sort of watching it with the eyes of what I wanted to see. That was an element which I think is not so much the fact how long it goes on for and how graphic it is that he's toppling this person. So the second sort of departure is from the extended cartridge, which is where Saraman is reinstated, the death of Saraman, and there's a speech raised at the top of all thank and then falls down and gets spiked on that sort of wheel thing. What do you think of that scene? Yeah, if you're not showing the scouring of the shire and you have to come up if you're already decided that you're not doing that for the story that you want to tell, then I'm trying to think of what other ways you can dispose of get an end for the character of Saraman. I mean it's so in some sense you still have you know, worm tongue as the disposer in one way, but then what you lose in offing Saraman there is more of the pity of Gandalf, which in his speech, in Saraman's speech at the top of the tower, he, you know, derides Gandalf because you know, I don't need your pity, right? Or mercy. You really see that in the book version when they just leave and let, you know, they let Saraman off and give him a chance to still do something, right? Having mercy upon him and then leaving it up to him on how he decides to change or not. So you do miss that and so that that's a moment something that I appreciated from the book that you don't get as much by just watching Saraman. It is it is a spectacle, right? And him being impaled specifically on his his own machinery like yes, I understand, you know, the kind of irony of that and it is visually really arresting. And I think I understand that it's kind of a visual callback to another one of Christopher Lee's roles as Dracula in a film where he was impaled in that film. So kind of a visual nod to another piece of cinema. Yeah, so it was the theatrical cut didn't have this and so it was a bit random that people just picked up the plant here and that which is a seeing stone in order to set that up. So it's better with it in but and also it was if felt wrong not to have a goodbye scene for Christopher Lee, didn't it? But this is definitely one of those spaces where I think there's room for improvement given a bit more canvas, a bit more scope. That actually what the Saraman survival to end up causing trouble in the Shire does is it gives a real sense of how evil just doesn't go away when you throw a ring in a fire, you know, the damage remains but also it gives Frodo his moment of fullest maturity when even after there's an attack on him, he in the right at the door of Bagend, he says you were great once and that's his moment of greatness is when he says that and I'm sure we're not spawning the plot for anybody Grima then attacks him and then the Hobbit shoot Grima so it kind of wraps it up and I would really enjoy seeing that moment because whilst Frodo's been rising up into being a sort of bigger soul, Saraman's been diminishing and I think that gives that moment because Saraman is a valar, he's more than just a wizard, he's almost, he was the sort of archangially messenger of the gods kind of person. Yeah and that's one of the themes I think that the film does well with the character of Gandalf right, just going back to the you know the background information with the Valar with you know we're with Maya right with with Gandalf being a Maya, right, that and correct and let me correct that. Right, yes, yeah, yeah. I meant to say Maya, the valar are like the gods, the Maya are like the next rung down so. Never less impressive. So we're not writing to correct the other world. We're seeing that moment. Right, yes, yes, but the archangel moment, yes, so with Gandalf right and in in in the summer early and you have right Olorin who's the who becomes who's who's Gandalf right embodied that he it mentions in summer early and that he has kind of been suggested that he has an apprenticeship under Niana who's the goddess of weeping and wisdom and so and pity and so that's where it seems that Gandalf picks up this idea of pity from as this kind of cardinal virtue and then I think Ian McKellen does a really good job of depicting this pitiful in the positive sense right somebody who's full of of of pity for others and where he has that that in his eyes and his demeanor I think he adds to he really highlights that in the character of Gandalf that's latent in the character of Gandalf that that's actually you know pervasive there you actually see that visualized and then Frodo right picks up that idea when he spares Golem's life later but then you see that I think fully realized with Sarmon who are then instead of having a you know Amaya kind of teaching him about pity this habit you then have a habit of who's displaying this you know fully realized sense of pity to this you know otherworldly superhuman being who was at you know at the height of its power earlier so I so I really like that like you're saying you know giving Frodo this moment showing his full moral development so you see him as a you know just like courageous development right if you're looking at that as a character aspect that's what the film's depict well but in terms of his moral development I think you do get a fuller realization of that in that scene that you're mentioning in the scarring the yeah this isn't a criticism of peach action choosing not to do that because I think you just had too much material but I'm just reading where I think the room is to do something different and interesting something more yeah yeah so let's that does actually take us to the problem of the endings of the film and this is why it doesn't make it as my favorite of them because I remember watching it in the cinema and we have a sort of white out when Frodo is sort of passing out on the the ashy slopes he wakes up and is in a bed and there's quite a long scene of slow motion people coming in and then there's a coronation and then there's a flying up the map and you think he's at the end is at the end and then there's riding into the shire then there's down the pub in the shire with the sense of Sam going off to speak to Rosie cotton then there's Frodo writing in a book this is all the end Frodo writing in a book and suffering his ill and then there's the ride to meet Bilbo who's going to the shores as well to catch the boat and then there is the long scene of farewells on the shores now each of those scenes has something good in it and something I wouldn't want to lose but the problem is is I think there's another blackout scene as well another moment where you think oh this is the credits are going to roll it doesn't leave you keep saying is it now is it now and I remember thinking in the cinema this is an I'm a passionate fan of you know the whole thing I remember thinking this is going on too long that it's just not just not working where do you think what would you agree and what would you have done yeah that's a good question but definitely I think visually they do that you're using the conventions of film with that especially like a fade to black that's usually denotes the end kind of a hard a hard stop on something so so using that yeah certainly I think interrupts the sense of flow that could that could be there at some of those scenes so it really is difficult because you want to have all of these different moments and so I think it's an attempt to to have have it always I'll have it both not just both ways but always right with with kind of having a there's almost yeah like a traffic jam kind of of of endings kind of piling up one after another in in one sense yeah in in another sense I mean because I like I want to live in that world I want to I want to be there and so I get a sense you know after each of the endings like can that can that can I please just get one more it's like an encore you know with somebody who's like a musician I like I like the fact that there is more of it it is but it isn't as smooth and I think as narratively as you could and I think yeah so it'd be interesting if you had to try to reconfigure some of those different endings is there a way where like you did with the mordor and a gondor battle struggle sequences is there a way that you could intercut some of those farewells that would be compelling I'm not sure because I think for for for endings usually right you want to like linger with the character and have kind of more extended dialogue sequences and that's harder to do with intercutting but I want yeah it would be it would be interesting to say like are is there a different way to do this yeah I'm wondering hearing you talk actually if the problem is that so much the number of endings it's the fact that we get the music and the signals that this is ending is a bit like your your applaud a piece of classical music before the end because you've taken the final chord as being it but actually know there's a coda which you didn't know didn't know to expect and I think actually the signaling the filmatic signaling is a bit wrong there and there's another way of doing it I can I can also in this other world I'm imagining of the mini series with much more time you could make a real virtue of it and have your sense of say the message is just because you kill the baddie or break his power it doesn't mean that things are over you know that this world and you could actually make that a really interesting part about that because it would give more space to breathe for some of the relationships which kind of get shunned into sort of a very rapid wedding bells style of um solution and actually there's a much more interesting reflections on that um so yeah absolutely one signals are wrong signals are wrong and that's a film yeah yeah yeah yep yep absolutely and one of the endings with with one of those that you don't really get is a moment with a pair that you've followed from the beginning which is like a listen gimli right the development of their relationship you don't really get a good send off of just those two as a pair that you do have mentioned right in the book that they're kind of going off to together for a while and then the possibility that the two of them then go into the west together but not not explicitly but that it is said something you'll some say that yeah this is something that happens on that in the book gimli and legolas have an agreement that um legolas will take gimli into fangirl to show him the appreciation of trees and gimli takes legolas into the caves at helms steep the problem they have is that gimli doesn't go in the caves at helms steep because of the way the narrative works air winds down there with the women and children and you don't even know they're a beautiful cave you don't get the chance to establish that for gimli this has been one of his peak moments in the journey is discovering these fantastic caves um yeah but also one thing i i appreciate how difficult this is i mean this is we're being very picky because we just reorganize it just you know in our armchairs but um one thing that i did think was done well in the extended edition which was cut from the theatrical is just a couple of moments with air wind and pharma establishing what they mean to each other there's a and i think actually that's one of the ways that's one of the good things that you could have done more with because he pitch jackson chooses some key moments so that in the houses of healing together they have a moment when when they're not sure which way it's going to go um and they find comfort to each other and then they're standing together at the coronation and if you're going to do a compressed version of their relationship that's quite a good way to go i think the problem with the arrogant and our wind story is they spend the entire story apart and they try really hard to bring a connection with some of the um the scenes that foretell our wind's future i mean i enjoyed watching those because it delved into material from the appendices and that was a bit of a geeky thrill to see that but i think there is a really difficult problem make us feel that that relationship mat you know it's just they just don't have the time together which is a shame it's just the way the story runs um and so perhaps yeah perhaps oh i can't suggest putting more in because that would have just made it even longer film i think that that was one of the less successfully handled love stories because it did vanish really below the yeah the weight of the other narrative right yep yeah i agree and especially with somebody as great as as ao and that you spend so much time with um earlier you know in the previous film and then on the battlefield i think it would so yeah i i think that she could have had a slightly better send off again but again that that would that would have extended the runtime yeah running way too far i mean she gets enough it's our wind who gets the she just comes with the wedding um right right you do have those scenes where she's leave i mean they i think they they decided to do well let's give her a little story arc so that she now is they added the thing about her dying um and the arrogant is also fighting for her um because otherwise she'll die as if he didn't need any any more motivation i can so they want to make the connection i just feel it's a really difficult story to put into a film because this isn't a love well it's not a love story it's a it's a love story in the sense that it's a story between friends a love story of friendships the Sam and Frodo and the fellowship and it just feels it's just difficult um yeah so it's not barren and luthian is it which is it's kind of uh what it's you know that would be that's the film i'd like to see made that one but do a proper Tolkien love story yeah right i think that the another cut i would have made is the goodbye speech of the grey havens just goes on too long and also i think the coronation just goes on too long you know there's some yes it does in terms of yeah we're speaking building the pace towards the end rather than putting on the breaks but anyway that's me being picky okay so um thinking about the things that if we were what other potential do you think there would be if you were given the job you get the phone call some big streaming platform wants you to do the return of the king again i've mentioned some things i'd put in where would you go yeah what did you like and not like about the changes that were made to return of the king what would you put back yeah right put yeah that's yeah i'm the so yeah the the scaring of the shy is something that keep going back and forth on on whether or not to to include that but i think you're right that it that that sort of ending seems more better fit for a long-form series uh you know limited series um just because there's there's there's there's so much that you see they're like you said what one of the themes you that they didn't follow is would be you know the the long defeat and that even when the ring is thrown into uh right the fire's amount doomed that evil still is and it's not they haven't changed the world and renewed it and now there's no more death and sorrow um uh or evil um so you get and i understand that you know in a film what you're doing that need those kind of stark you know you have your your your clear evil clear clear clear good and uh how those those two are wrestling in the hearts of some of these individuals how they went out and in some instances um but then in the end good wins and you can go home as an audience happy knowing that good has been saved uh at least in one world that you've experienced um but yeah i i but with that i think that the scarring of the shire does show that the story you know that the road does go ever on in in a way right that there are more the stories um there's more adventures to be had later and this is like you know sam says that there are these great stories you know we're a part of a story and we're continuing on and that these stories will continue to exist so if there's one thing that i think that could have been done where you could maybe bring in a little bit more of the fact that it's not necessarily happyly ever after you do kind of get a sense of that in the delivery of sam you know he's you know lying well on your i'm back uh there at the end it is kind of a bitter sweet him being back um but i think if you another possible avenue is to kind of lean more into that and show you know do him even telling those stories that same sort of speech that he has or moving that we're having him telling that to his children about having it which is different from the book right i think they they ended it in a book appropriate place there with sam saying i'm back um but if you wanted to continue some of those themes of each person being part of a narrative a larger narrative and then these kind of continually happening and good and evil continue to struggle that i i i i i i think there's there's a way that maybe you could include a bit more of that thematically and that we're all continuing even the audience included is part of this ongoing struggle um that looking back on it other people might say you know you had a heroic life when in the moment as you're struggling with this you might not feel that way yourself i don't i think that i wouldn't have chose i wouldn't have changed the end i definitely would have used that as my last line the thing i would change about sam though is the right at the beginning of the film where Frodo and Sam fall out i know they did this for narrative purpose to get Frodo on his own in she loves the layer but actually i think it works really well in the book where the two of them are so terrified um and doing it together i i think that really works that passage so i'd like to see a version where they don't fall out on the stairs this is where there's a bit of a character wrenching going on um we were talking about how farmy in the two towers has a sort of pushing into a more violent version of himself he's back at interestingly in this film he's back as the farmyer from the book after that little foray on the dark side um but in this film it's set up that Frodo is already so sort of impressed by the ring that he distrusts Sam and that doesn't happen in the book and i think that breaking of the trust then actually takes away the power of him right at the end breaking away from doing what Sam wants him to do i would have i would have held that moment till then the right on the the crack of doom literally that even Sam can't get through to him and so it's kind of done a bit early um so i would that's what i think that i would not would suggest that it's possible to redo and have a really good powerful scary you know we've seen the equivalent of the horror films of two people going through the haunted house if you're both equally scared it's equally terrifying you don't need to be on your own um yeah so that's what i i think i would change that because i think that narratively it works better to Frodo to have his moment of breaking right at the end right yeah and that's something yeah with with the you know we mentioned these kind of triads that are set up right with golem sam and Frodo and you know denathor faramir and and boramir and aragorn arwen and aowen as these kind of triad of triads of these dynamics between those different characters that Frodo sam and golem that to make them more to make it more of an equal triangle uh having Frodo kind of split between golem and sam and so introducing more tension between the characters dramatically i can see why they did that for that purpose but you but you in making that choice it's done at the expense of this deep like you said trusting um relationship that that has developed between Frodo and sam between all it done so you do lose something there it's it's done at the expense of that relationship and the beauty of that relationship and that's just seeing that i agree that maybe seeing that point that split done at the very end when you think that's the one thing that Frodo has to save him is sam uh and sam you know him and his relationship with sam it would be yeah i think more more of a gut punch an emotional gut punch than than it is uh as it is presently in the film but it's just to trade up but you get that gut punch earlier and so it's where we're do you want that falling out but i would like to see the version that you suggested absolutely yeah so there's always more to talk about we've talked for quite a long time about a film which lasts um or three hours or something isn't in the and there is still more to say but let's think about the achievement so we've been we've been nitpicking we love these films it's not it's not a criticism i think it's just quite exciting to think what you could do because there is a temptation to say these were such good films that we shouldn't be touched you should leave them as they are nobody else need come along afterwards but i do actually think when i've thought about it length that if you say well let's take a different pace let's take a different canvas i do think there is actually scope and plus some of the things which feel a bit CGI-like like the um the the black gate where the the land falls away beneath or but the good army that always feels like a video game to me that that the way it's short and everything it doesn't feel and i'm sure these days are we've come on 20 years time you know i think you could probably have another go at some of the CGI as well but anyway um what do you think about the return of the king and it's the fact that one all those Oscars was it a deserved Oscar win i think you've got eleven Oscars do you think that yes i think it was a third third yeah eleven thirteen it was it was and i think it was an odd some sort of odd or prime number uh that was more than ten uh i can't remember exactly it might it might have been thirteen but yeah i think and again yeah because this was there were all kind of shot concurrently um so i i i thought it was well deserved what i didn't you know you you didn't have um i believe it was uh Ian McKellen was you know nominated it for fellowship um uh for an academy award but not for a turn of the king when uh you know i argue he he should have been as well like i there there were a few kind of oversights i think but i overall yeah i think it's it was a a marvel a miracle a miracle even of uh of of of cinematic uh accomplishment there um so i i i think i think it was i was absolutely deserved and that wasn't just you know kind of a a a pity pity awards being given for something that had just taken so much time but just the ambition uh yeah especially expect even that i think i think it won everything except acting awards and there is a problem i think in the academy of giving uh in the Oscars are actually giving awards for acting in a fantasy film it they're very good yeah fantasy sci-fi yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly awards to people who do things where they're changing their bodies physically but within a real world context but if you come a wizard you know you're you're counted out so i so i i think it i think it what it deserved the awards because i think and the awards i think were a recognition of the whole trilogy really i think that's exactly yeah it was kind of okay this is our last chance we got to do this and i do think they completely rose to the challenge so i mean my my last comment i want to make on this is basically well done these films deserved the Oscars because it was a recognition of the whole of the trilogy and they beat Jackson and his team brilliantly rose to the occasion they as a talking fan who was worried about what they would do for me they really achieved so much and they were as really respectful of the material whilst making changes which they felt were necessary i don't agree all their choices but i can see why they made their choices so it's just because of debate about you know not everybody makes the same film that's the whole point so i think they are definitely they're still my favorite films but i would i still think there's room for more a little bit more as Frodo says and that little bit more is somebody else having another go right i think that you know in a decade's time i'd be quite ready to watch watch it so good luck to whoever that is right yeah exactly i would love to i would i would love to sit you and similar yeah i had soft them it was like i mentioned in the first podcast this was my first introduction really into the world of of Tolkien and so it was i think for me and i'm sure for a lot of others kind of an ideal entry point into a world you know a brilliantly imagined painstakingly created lovingly curated world that professor Tolkien spent so much time put so much heart into it's i'm i'm so incredibly grateful but so many people took this so seriously created such a you know a lived in convincing world that i could step into and fall in love with and that led me to reading reading the books themselves and then everything else that the good professor put his put his hand to so it's been really riching experience for me so if for no other reason i applaud it and it holds a preeminent place in my heart because it introduced me into this broader world that professor Tolkien created yeah talking had the theory that we were sub creators and just as my my sort of coder is one of the things that Peter Jackson created was an environment a story around the making of the films so not only could you watch the films as a fan but you also had the pleasure of doing i think it's the best behind the scenes um coverage of any film I certainly raised the bike extremely high if anyone's followed on it's because of him so that not only was it like the film journey but you also had a sense of the journey of the actors and the stage hands and the you know the people who did the the set design and made all the and that in itself was a creation and an achievement which i think would and the sense of news even getting behind it as a sort of you know that whole fun part of it so i enjoyed watching the creation of the film world around it as well and i think that would be very hard to replicate in future so that might be in a sense what is most unique um contribution in the long run we'll see yeah it's a good like to go this next yes yeah that's right i mean i haven't heard anyone's um in in in the frame for doing it but i would imagine it will happen they've just announced that they're doing a anim of Rohan today at the day with filming this so clearly other sort of mini series type things are happening um so we'll see and of course we always do a section where we decide at the end of our podcast where in all the fantasy world is the best place for something we've been talking about kings so the obvious place to go Jacob is to decide where in all the fantasy world is the best place to be made king any ideas on that one um for me i think i'm going to have to go with um uh the world of fairy in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell by Susanna Park i think the raven king there uh it's incredibly mysterious character incredibly powerful you don't get to spend he only appears oh i don't want to give spoilers but you don't see a lot of this raven king if you do or do not see him again i won't say for certain but uh if he he appears and he carries a tremendous amount of weight without having to do too terribly much so if you're looking for maybe i don't know a retirement or a vacation destination to be a king where you get all of the the glory and the weight um and the kind of aura of of majesty and mystery um well not having to do a whole lot then uh yes fairy in uh the realm of fairy in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell i think is is probably the best you could hope for yeah some of the kingship gigs do seem a bit like hard work don't they i mean i think why we're going works really hard and he it's mentioned that he has to go around tidying up and you know so reuniting the kingdom it's definitely a post war reconstruction role that he has um so maybe not so good i think that there's some definite places not to be king like the game of thrones world right no no not taking that game possibly i would like to be a king in um or queen it's got to be nania really big partly that was the childhood thing of you get to be long live king pizza long live queen susanazama which is a great bit of an ego trip as a child you can imagine yourself being king but i'd actually probably prefer to be king in um the magician's nephew where you're the third king and it's the cabbie and his wife who get to be king and queen there and i always thought the idea of being king and queen in a pristine world where you're setting up the state sounds quite fun so that's where i'd like to go and be king and there's probably very little pay for work because you haven't inherited anything so it's just a straightforward king gig where you right the establish your court and everything up so that's great thanks so much jacob thank for joining joining me and i hope people have enjoyed our discussion we don't expect you to agree but we'll be very interested to hear your views so do write in a letters there you can find us at the oxford center for fantasy dot org thank you very much and goodbye thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the oxford center for fantasy visit oxford center for fantasy dot org to join in the fun find out about our online courses in 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