First Reactions To The Rings Of Power (Amazon Prime)

0:07 Welcome to myth makers. Myth makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm the director of the center, but I also spend most of my life being an author writing in many different genres for all different age groups, but very often returning to the genre of fantasy. I've been deeply inspired by talking all my writing life. So it was a great excitement that I saw that, uh, Amazon prime were making a serious based on the second age of talking. Now, the Oxford center for fantasy runs, creative courses, and the students have kept together after the courses to, uh, keep us a group of creative, supporting each other, a sort of modern form of inklings.

0:58 And to mark the arrival of the Amazon series, we had a first reaction gathering where we could share our views. So if you want to listen to what fellow fans were thinking, please listen on because what we've done in this is first part of it is I explain where the material in the series seems to depart from what you would find in the sort of canonical, you know, talking material. Uh, so if you have wondered about that is a very brief guide about the differences between what you can find in the silver really, and the appendices and the Amazon series, but then you can listen to the views exchanged on what we made of the series.

1:41 And perhaps you can also add in your own comments at the end, if you agree with us, we complete our discussion with our star rating. So stay tuned to find out if we think it's a hit or a miss, thank you very much and enjoy our discussion. So. Um, welcome everybody to the early reaction to the rings of power series based on, um, talking's material. What I'm going to do is I'm going to give you a little introduction just to say what they're doing in the story that is based on the appends, uh, and the Soin and where it differs in case you're interested in what what's going on. Um, only briefly, not, not absolutely to deep nerd level. Um, I'm BA there's bound to be YouTube videos out there about that, but I just give you the broad brush strokes of the kind of decisions they're making, which I thought was really fascinating.

2:50 And then I was going to ask you for your reactions about in, in three areas. So have a think about this. The first one is your reactions to the story, you know, did you enjoy watching it the second, uh, is your reaction to the performance of the actors embodying these characters? And the last one is the creative realization of it, the special effects, the looks, the music and so on. So have a think, um, hopefully people will disagree. We don't all want to say, oh yes, it was wonderful or no, it was terrible. So it'd be, don't worry if you don't agree with other people.

3:32 Cause that's what we want. We want discussion about it. So first of all, just to give you a sort little bit of background, um, you probably all know that the rights for talking material are, you know, Byzantine. Um, so they're only allowed to do certain things. And as I understand it, um, they've sort of got rights to second age material talking's world is described in well it's four ages, really? So the first stage is from the creation of, well, I suppose creation comes even before the first stage, but there's a creation. Then there's the first stage, which is really dominated by the, the silver Maril the silver reels, which are a jewel made by the elves and the wars about that and the defeat of the big, bad of the Mor who's a character called Morgo.

4:31 Then once his defeated, then there's the second age. And this is where, uh, the rings of power sit and coming up is the captain Sarah who's like taking over and he's now the big Badie. And this is the age when, um, sort of ELs men and walls are all living alongside each other. And that age, age completes with the battle that you see at the start of the Lord of the rings films, when the ring is cut from the hand of sour, okay.

5:14 The third age, which is very long, we only see the end of it in Lord of the rings is the age, um, of the rise and fall of Goor really with the hobbits kind of establish establishing themselves in the Shire. And that age ends when the ring is destroyed and we are sorted living in the fourth age. So that's, that's the kind of outline. So they've got the middle bit, they've got well middle, but they got the second age of that. Um, so they've obviously made the decision to follow a composite cast in the same way as you do in fellowship with the ring, but they're, they're starting with go.

6:01 And the main things where this series works with the book and differs from the book, hang around that character. So if you've watched the first two episodes, you'll see, go is, is realized as a warrior who, um, is fighting, is basically aware of the returning evil and trying to persuade others that it's coming back. So yes, in talking's material, collateral does start over in valor. She's really, really old, really, really old already by the second age, which are kind of, cause the actress is so beautiful and young, young looking, but she's one of the oldest people around at the time, she was one of four children of who, one of those is her brother who appears at the beginning of the series. Um, her brother FINRA, he dies in one of the hidden kingdoms of the elves.

6:59 Elves had these hidden kingdoms. He dies in Agathon as do her other two brothers die in other battles. So she does how she has seen death. That's true. But in terms of talking story, she's not this warrior figure. She spends most of the first age in a place called Doria alongside this figure called Milian. Who's like a bit like Gander's, she's a sort of Aang jewel type. It's not, that's not the right word, but she's kind of semi, semi divine. She's not quite normally, um, Elvin or human or anything. Um, she's not really junior to Gil. Gillad, who's the high king in terms of the talking version of this.

7:44 And so she's not the sort of swash baling warrior that's been realized she does fight, but her fight is more like a leader deciding where the armies go rather than, rather than that rather elegant snow troll, um, moment, which I loved, but you know, she's not kind of in the, in the book. Um, and she of course has her mental warfare of having one of the rings to keep evil at bay. So she is a fighter, but just not quite the lovely warrior that we see. Um, it's also not mentioned that she's under a curse or a doom because the reason the LS end up in middle earth is because it's like a, um, it's a, there's a, a fight over the silver reels and they leave to go and reclaim them, but there's some kin laying that goes on. And so they're under a, uh, a sort of doom where she can't go back to valor.

8:41 So the element in the story where this is in, I think it's yeah, it's in the first episode. So hopefully everyone's seen that where they're said, oh, it's okay. You, you luck can go back to valor, actually goad. That would be really problematic for her. Cause she's still under this doom. And that is, that is another moment for that to be lifted. Um, and also they've missed out poor old Keller. Born's been cut cuz she actually meets him in the first stage and they they're in love and live very happily for centuries, not always together, but they're, they're an item, um, for centuries way before the series starts.

9:23 But of course the story reason for getting rid of him is it's more exciting to see her as a free agent. Whereas if she's got like ke born kind of alongside it, you can see how that doesn't work. So is being cut. Um, so there, the big difference is there, when you look at the other stories, they're following the overall impression that yes, collateral is aware of the return of evil and warns against Sarah, that is correct. That's where they're sticking to the script. Um, the idea that the men feel they're sort of under the Elvin boots, kinda, maybe an interesting, but actually it's the IANS. If you wanna be technical, who kind of are a bit more like the colonizing force at this time and we haven't even reached the new Menor, but I suppose you could say some men would've felt that half it, the proto ops. Yes, of course the hops must have had some ancestors around, but very little is known about them, which I suppose is quite good for a storytelling point of view because they can just kind of do anything with them as long as they're not really super visible.

10:41 Um, it seems right that they would be a nomadic culture and you can see the choice of having a conservatism, which you see in the hobbits when they're settled, even within the half foot, you've got the idea, you don't leave the trail. So there's, there's they stick together as a group. So yeah, that all seems to, to fit, um, invented is AIA and Bronwin that storyline, but I dunno if you've noticed they live in the place, which later becomes on the map, anybody's spot where they're living basically in what becomes mortal, um, or in that very, that region or the brown lenss. So the big, the origins of evil that you see there with the sort of, you know, the cow with the black milk and everything, you can see the turning of those lands. So, you know, the, the omens are not great for their society.

11:42 So that's a little sense of where it's following a track. I think the broad brush show brushstrokes are sort of on within the talking well, but there is a lot of particularly go gradual, like reimagining her to do a different job, um, which probably is sending some people, you know, crazy, but that, that's basically what they're doing. So I'm not gonna give a view on whether it's good or bad to do that. I'd like to hear how you felt, and this is where it goes over to you to discuss. What was your feeling about, um, the story that did you find it fun or did you find it too slow?

12:22 Who would like to chip in with an, an early reaction Nancy off you go? So I do like it, I watched both episodes twice. I, um, I feel like we're in middle earth, which was a really important thing. Um, I, I really liked the relationship between Elron and Durham and that we're gonna get to see Kaza doom at its height.

13:03 I like that development. I really had a problem with Gori, only others being offered to go to valor. Um, not only because the way they made it look. So I find those, those female elves with the veils on really creepy <laugh> and I'm like, I don't understand what that is about. And so I was thinking about this last night after watching it for the sec, the second episode for the second time that, um, really gradual is the only female elf.

13:45 We get to see her face basically. And I know she's the star, but it's very weird to me. And I was like, I mean, part of the reason why, you know, when we see GE at the mirror with photo and she gets all big and bad and then she comes back to herself and she's like, I passed the test, I can go into the west. I mean, part the thing, the reason that's so impactful is because she had been banned from valor and had, had to protect her little slice of Vindo and was fighting SAR that entire time with the help of the, with NA ne NAIA, um, and her NAIA. And, um, and so she does pass the test and become forgiven, you know?

14:48 So by allowing her the opportunity to go back to Lanor, like right at the very beginning, I think it takes away from that. Um, I don't have a problem with her being this warrior. Um, Tolkin did say she was, you know, really strong and he called her name was like manmade in. And, um, so I don't really have a problem with that. I'm not, I was thinking about the whole caliber thing too last night that he could still be there. He could be, you know, because he's, they're not always together. Like you said, you know, and he could be off on his own doing the whole, you know, founding Lauren thing or whatever.

15:35 So I just, um, cause I don't have a problem with them making her like this, but, um, I did kind of have a problem with, um, yoga led and him saying that evil was gone, you know, like he seemed an Elron, they both seemed like politicians sort of, you know, and I guess they would be. And I guess even in the Lord of the rings Elron was a bit of a politician, I mean, and, but to dismiss it so offhand, you know, just because, you know, she said she found includes, but I don't know that whole thing just seemed weird to me. Um, I love the hos the horror foots. Um, I love the horror foots.

16:21 I love this mystery man who it does seem it is who I think it is. And I projected a while back that who it would be. But I'm wondering if they're going, I don't know if I wanna spoil that, but I I'm wondering if, if they're leading us on with that. Um, but I like the way the hard foots are being portrayed and they seem very natural. I mean, the elves are the ones that felt most stilted to me where the humans and the, the, um, hard foots seemed very, uh, real, um, uh, I'm not sure about the, the L human relationship right off the bat. And I'm also worried that, you know, this thing between gradual and, um, how brand, uh, they're hinting at something.

17:16 And I don't think they should go there, but, um, you know, so far I really I'm happy with the way it looks. I I'm happy with the most of the characters the way they are. And I mean, there's, I, I think I heard there's only eight episodes and that's a lot to develop in the first season. And what, what had worried me was in seeing the previews, there was a whole lot going on very early, you know, like they really jumped the timeline. Like I know they said they com am I frozen?

18:00 No. It said they compressed it, but I think they may be compressing it too much. So, um, I don't know about the, the naked man, but I had, I, my I've got a kind of either or, oh, so I was thinking, well, it'd be fun to use that guy as the Hoit is introducing Sarah, you know, it could be Sarah who's kind of fallen angel fallen from the sky Lucifer figure. But because he's, and also it looks like an eye, you know, that's sort of in the middle of that thing. But then when I actually saw him, I thought, oh, he's definitely channeling a kind of GNED off the gray grunge.

18:40 So maybe he's a wizard and he starts being a bit scary. And actually that's a classic thing to do. Isn't it. If it's, if it actually turns out to be good, you start him a bit scary. Whereas if, if he was gonna be Sarah, you'd start him being really nice. I, I do think. He's and do it the other way. So my money's shifted being, if I'm in Vegas, I'm gonna put him on the wizard Gand chip. I think, I dunno. What do other people think? Cause we don't know. I don't know. Uh. Yeah, especially. So catch here. You've got your hand up. What, what's your view? Yeah, so I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I was very apprehensive.

19:23 They, they wouldn't be respectful to talk and, but they were, in my opinion, more respectful than not. I am totally in love with the couple of the woman healer and the guard elf. Um, and it did surprise me because I think the been totally imagined for the Amazon show, but I like the chemistry that they had. I liked the individual characters. Um, I think out of all of the ELFS, the guard for me had the most behavior that I would expect because I was very disappointed by almost all other elves. Um, a I, yeah. Uh, I was not convinced by the actor. Um, he didn't seem enough ELV to me <laugh> uh, but I did like the worst, uh, the hard foods.

20:12 And then, yeah, generally I found it's very visually appealing kind of divided from collateral. Didn't like her in the first episode liked her very much on, in the second way more in the second episode. Um, but I also try, uh, it it's, yeah, it's kind of difficult for me to judge it, uh, with a lot of precision, uh, because I'm not that familiar with all of the prehistory of the middle earth. Uh, so yeah, uh, more happy way more happy than I thought I would be and love the elephant, uh, human couple generally. I'm always a sucker for a, a difficult love story. Um, so I'm for now, I'm mostly here to, to follow this couple. It's like my main interest for now.

21:03 No, that's really fascinating cuz they're the couple when they come on the screen, I think, oh, come on. <laugh> I'm less interested in them though. I do like his breast plate. I spend a lot of time looking at thinking, oh, it's a green man. Um. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I, I think finally the costumes were very nice, but it was a bit disappointed by the armor of the elves. I would expect more of intricate metal work, uh, on their armor and it's very plain to me, but yeah, it's the kind of need picking. Yeah. We, we, I spent a knit pick there. That's what we are here to do. I mean, why not? Rowan, you got also had a hand raised. What was your reaction?

21:49 Um, so potentially controversial in a room full of such dedicated, uh, talking fans and fans of literature and the books, um, as am I obviously, but when I was younger, I was super critical of any, um, film or TV show that did not replicate exactly the book I had just read it, ruined it for me. If I did not see an exact, like the same version of that story on that screen, as I've got older, I could not be less interested in seeing an exact copy of the book on screen. Um, and like I think it that's come with having a different understanding of art now and also like studying film and studying TV a bit more and like learning the differences between like writing for, you know, writing a novel writing, short stories, writing for TV writing film, I'm a bit more sympathetic to TV and film writers now in knowing that every scene has to have something, you know, there has to, but yeah, and talking was not a writer who condensed things.

23:07 He was not, not a writer who condensed things. Um, and you have to do that in TV. Um, and you have to, every single scene has to have, that has to have something, you know, with film has to have something in it. So while there was some things, um, that I was like, oh, you know, the, the talking nerd in me went a little bit oh, you know, like, um, you know, going to, uh, VA or, and, you know, think, you know, going back there, I was a bit like, oh, that's a bit odd. Um, and then I thought, yeah, you know what, though, I can see why they've done it. Um, I sort of look at it with very different, you know, different hats now, I guess I wear when I'm watching something on TV.

23:57 Um, so I really loved it. Um, I like what Nancy said about feeling like you're in middle earth, cuz I, I got that feeling too. That was one of the most important thing for me, I think, um, not it being a, uh, exact copy of the characters that were written, um, in the books and not it being the exact sort of, you know, law that was in the books, but more that feeling of middle earth, that feeling of going home, um, was the most important thing for me. And I definitely got that. Um, so yeah, that's, that's how I feel about it. I think with seeing, um, characters as well that we've got to know through reading the books and also watching like the older, the rings in the Hobbit, seeing new actors take on those roles is always gonna be a bit, even at a different time is always gonna be a bit jarring at first. You know, you've sort of have to, um, refamiliarize yourself with that character again, because you are seeing them on screen, but it's, you know, it's a different actor.

25:10 They're bringing something completely different to the character. And I, I understand like people's sort of, um, reactions like Elron especially like, but I think we will become familiar with them again, we will, you know, you know, become acquainted with them and that, uh, um, this, um, portrayal of, of him and the other characters as well. But it, it does definitely have that sort of jarring feeling at first. Um, but yeah, I think that'll, I think that'll come in time. Um, I think. To pick up on your point about Elron there is, I did see him as a politician. I saw him as a diplomat as an ex diplomat, what he was doing particularly in the second episode is he's clearly doing the ambassador role. And I like that. Cause I thought, oh, this is a really interesting way of explaining his role in middle earth, um, because of his half. And no, I thought that was, I really enjoyed that.

26:13 We've had a correction from Nancy who is our absolute expert. Um, so you know, far more expert than I am. Um, Ronwin and Aron Deere are in tier hared. I was getting a bit kind of map. Can you get map queasy? Cause it gets swooping over the map. I couldn't quite follow where they were going, which she says she thinks is near her ad, which is obviously Southern. Um, so maybe their, their land is okay though. It infested with olive fonts maybe. Oh yeah, my money's on Gander. Sorry Alexandra. I, yeah, my that's where I'm putting my, my money. It was the, but again, it could be red herring. Like it's one of those things, but it, for me, I was like, this feels a lot like feels a lot like Gander and then it was the whispering to the fireflies. I was like, okay, that's very clear callback.

27:01 I think this is scan. Um, so yeah, that's, that's, that's what I'm putting my money on. Or a blue wizard about whom we know not very much, you always go for the ones about whom, you know, nothing, but. He says, he says something like man, when he speaks and I think Ure is the name of, um, the creator <inaudible> or something like that. You're very good. If you can, if you can actually interpret what he's saying, I, I, I should put the captions on for that bit. Uh, Alex, um, you've also had with us. Actually love the, the TV show obviously.

27:44 And I wanted to come back on the Brun Brun win. Oranger sorry. That was something I found very clever because for me, it's showing the evil and so without showing it, and I think it was a, a good way of like kind of subtle ish because, well, I guess we all picked that up, but it's a good way of showing him without having to go too much into portraying the actual evil right now, because everybody's looking for him, but you still have to have him somewhere, even if, but you can't show it because otherwise the whole gradual quest, uh, is useless. I guess, if you know exactly where he is. So I kind of like that and on the acting, I feel like, I don't know if it's just me, but it's been a while.

28:31 I haven't seen actors bring me directly and so vividly into the whole world. I for, I didn't, I had to come back for a second when I still get agile space, I knew it was her immediately. I didn't had a second of like, who could she be? It was like obvious. And I think I had that feeling for most of the characters. So I think they did very well in casting, in finding actors that kind of look like the older version of themselves and still are good with the bigger, I just pick someone that looks like and will do the job. Somehow people will find it, I guess, but I don't know. They, they look like them and they also play well. So I think it's kinda, well.

29:16 I thought that Nori actually has almost like Elijah wood eyes, you know, you were saying, so you got you think, yeah, that's that kind of works. And I was looking at Norie, she's got these one me as I talk about the eyes of the young gala later. Like when that first started, I thought, my goodness, this, this girl is just astonishing, you know. And. They've done some very good casting picks, I think. Uh, and. I was wondering about, about, no, that he's a Brandy wondering if there's any relation to the Brandy actually. Oh yeah.

29:59 They've taken a bit of one name and put it with a bit of another. Exactly. And my money is on Zo as well, but the. Well, it'd be very funny when, when we come, we should meet back at the end of the series and have another chat about it once we've given the whole story arc. Um, and once we've lost all our money, like we've all been proven wrong or something. Yeah, that's right. From the beginning. <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, when I'm watching, throwing out random things like, oh, maybe that little boy turns out to be the mouse of Sarah. You know, the one who's got, um, from wins, picks up the other, cause he's got quite print, you know, he's got a bad wicked thing and he is a he's he's a man.

30:40 So he is gonna be he's doomed. Um, anyway, probably none of these things will come to pass, but anyway, it's quite fun to guess. So, um, some of you've mentioned already some performances, so we've sort of, most people are quite happy with story choices, cuz absolutely like Rowan, you do different things when you're making a TV show. Absolutely. And you put in a few really handsome else, like a on Deere and we are all happy, you know, why not? Um, but what about the actual acting performances I I've seen there was, um, one of the newspapers here gave it like a one star. I thought, how can you give it a one star? It was like a daily mail or something. My, uh, family pointed out to me. Definitely. I thought the acting was great.

31:29 And I particularly liked, I mean there all, there's nobody default at all. I particularly liked gala's acting when she said nothing. So like in the scenes when Gil Gallad is saying off you go evils over off you go, you could see within an Elvin restraint, her utter dis kind of the force of the emotion. I thought she did a fantastic job. So she gets a shout out for me. Anybody else wants to give a shout out for some of the performances, Christina? Well, I was keeping quiet because I've only almost finished the first episode, but I thought of all the things I'm still warming up to the serious in general, like the story and the feel of it.

32:19 Because for me the feel I'm still I'm getting used to it because it has a lot of the modern, serious feel rather than the Lord of the rings movie feel, which is clearly, it's just a different medium. So it's going to feel different. But I thought that in terms of acting, it actually was really, really nice. I really liked it. Maybe I'm just going to guess maybe the reason they gave the one star is because they didn't get the same feel. But I think it's more about the fact that it's a different interpretation. First of all, you get different actors and different interpretations, which is always going to feel different. And if you're used to people, like if you used to L run from the load of the rings films, you're gonna have to re get reused to the new L Rund.

33:09 Yeah. I completely disagree with the one star review. I would be acting. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a political choice knowing the newspaper, you know, they they're having a let's let's get it Amazon, um, possibly, or they sent along their critic who hates fantasy. Cuz obviously that would be a disaster if they only like kind of Mike Lee films or something, you know? Um, yeah. Um, so what about their creative, um, realization of it? We know that I think wetter workshop were involved, but they didn't, they didn't sort of get Peter Jackson along to sort of advise, but it clearly is owing a lot architecturally and everything to the original look of the Lord of the rings trilogy. Um, but were you happy with the feel of the places and some of you already said you felt like you were in middle earth.

34:09 Anything else you wanna say about costumes, music, uh, sets locations, Elizabeth, what did you think your muted. I'm getting a sign to be muted. Um, now thank you for asking that question and I'm gonna give a very simple observation and it, it meets with what you're asking. That's what drew me. I was loving it and then I really loved it when I became aware of the music. And there was a moment where I was like, okay, I'm really totally into this because the music is very important to me.

34:50 And um, uh, and I can't really cite exactly, you know, when and where that happened. But, um, that, that kind of linked me to the Peter Jackson films, not continually, but, um, yeah. That, so the, the theme music, which you only hear in full, if you go into the second episode, um, by the way. So maybe it was. Then the title sequence isn't run in the first one, um, is by Howard shore who did the music for Lord of the rings films. Um, and then the other music is by somebody called, I think it's Ben NEK. I might not be saying his, his or her name correctly. Um, but there's, you can listen to the soundtrack on Spotify, which we did as we were driving home from our holiday.

35:38 And there's some really good, um, music in there. I particularly liked. I didn't like the scene, but I like the music when they're going to valor, which looks like death. To me, it looks like it being, yeah, it looked like that's my problem with it. Um, but the song that they say they've all got inside them, they all started singing. I thought that was beautifully done cuz that tune was played earlier. So you already prepared. And so when they started singing it, that was a very magical moment. I thought I did it really nicely though. I did think glad could have done with a better plan <laugh> than just jumping off the boat and having to swim back. I did laugh actually.

36:20 That was the moment where it broke the, the sort of, yeah, I thought, okay, that's a bit dat, but anyway, she's an elf. She she's she's good at swimming. She'll be fine. Yeah. I was, I will add one other comment again, more general than, uh, directing at one specific thing. Um, yeah, I did. I did find it magical. I did, um, the, the movement of the scenes and you know, what you, how you were introduced to it, you know, for lack of a better expression. I did, did find it to like magical, you know, and hopefully you like that. So.

37:01 Because I was. Gonna be disappointed if it wasn't. Yeah. If I didn't feel moved that way, I was gonna really be disappointed. So we just have a, a, a final little moment on costumes before we sort of do a round up of, of a out of five stars kind of thing. Um, somebody's already mentioned, I sort, I'm sorry. I forget who it was said that they thought the armor was a bit plain. Um, not quite enough. You'd have thought they'd had some VIN scripts and you know, they spend a lot of that on their weapons maybe. Um, but does anyone have anything they'd like to mention about sort of the dressing of the characters? I mean, a really strong look is the, um, the hobbits who all having a terribly bad hair day or a good hair day. If, if that's, if you like kind of dreadlocks with acorns, it's quite fun. I thought, I, I, the one thing I would say about the Harit is I wish they wouldn't give the women loads of skirts and trousers kind of pick aside, pick a lane, um, because it seems really unnecessary to go around a great big skirt and then killed it up. That bugged me.

38:25 <inaudible> you've got a few. Yeah, I have more. Question. Actually, because I remember, but I'm, uh, that, uh, I don't remember the exact. Phrase that Tokin was using. So the, normally the, uh, the, the women's warfs are supposed to have beers or there was like a rumor that they were supposed to have beer. Um, the, the beers, what was the Tolkin position on that? Do you do, you know, because I expected them to have beers, but I knew from the previous that they wouldn't have. And I thought that would be interesting visual to, to have, uh, yeah, but maybe it's not even part of the official Canon. And Nancy might know the answer. I I've got a feeling that is a vague mention of it.

39:08 But did you notice that had a little bit of a sideburn going on? Oh, no, I haven't not. Yeah. So there's a, there's a nod. She's got like a little beard, so there's. Stick with it kinda. Very subtle. She's it doesn't make a difference. You know, beards is there, is there a canonical answer on beards or not beards? Have you got a view on that, Nancy? Yeah. Can, am I breaking up? Cause I a. Little bit just carry, carry on though. You're fine again now. Oh, okay. So Tolkin did say that. Um, well he kind of said that there were female doors, but you didn't see them because he, they looked like the male doors and they did have beards.

39:59 And so that was one of the things that a lot of the fans are were complaining about because DSA did have like a little bit here, but in that scene where they're chopping the rocks, none of the other female dorms had beards. So I think it is gonna be a sticking port point for true DOF fans. But I, I thought the din kingdom was better realized than the Elvin kingdom. I mean, I costumes really elaborate and layered and nuanced and loved and home with the, we saw the VIN cities from a distance.

40:45 Maybe that's why I feel this way because we didn't really get to see, they were always outside. We didn't really get to see any structures really close up. I think VIN city is always looking incredibly drafty <laugh>, you know, they don't feel like real places. Do they? Whereas the dwarf kingdom, I really enjoyed seeing the, the mirrors that were used to bring the light down so they could do agriculture. They just walk past it. I love that. And you're right. There was sort of detail there. We should round up our conversation, just take Elizabeth. Uh, and I'm gonna ask you for your kind of four out of five vote. If you could put it, um, in the chat, we can do an overall score from us, um, from the project Northmore creatives, Oxford center for fantasy creatives. So, Elizabeth, what was your little comment you were gonna have there.

41:39 So way back when, um, when you were envisioning with all of us on project, Northmore you put up a post and said, well, it was way back at the very beginning. What, what are you wondering about? And it's just like a, you know, pub curiosity question, the, the dwarf women and the beard, but mainly over and above that, I'm more interested in the fact that they weren't visible really. They didn't have a, a role. I think that's more fascinating than, you know, what they look like basically, um, which are very nice looking by the way in the, in the new production. Um, but I, so just, you know, like weird curiosity, like, okay, I'm gonna look up online and see if I can see any images of a dwarf woman with a beard. And, um, one creative person did it very nicely.

42:26 Actually they had their hair kind of grown, you know, longer and braided in the front, like this sort of like a beard, you know, visually like it'd be in front, but it wasn't really a beard, but it, you know, so who knows what beard means, right. Indeed on that poser. So just while you come up with your we're giving it, uh, a sort of score out of five stars. Okay. So if you like to, um, put in your score, we'll have an overall total, but, um, my husband came up with a summary. I rather liked, which I thought I'd share with you. So he said, right. So that means the dwarfs are Scottish.

43:10 The hobbits are Irish, the elves are Welsh. The men are English and the money is American, which I thought was a great summary. Cuz if you actually follow the accents as somebody native to here, goads a bit Welsh. So it works. Okay. So let me go through, Oh, it's pretty good. We got 2, 3, 4. I would say we're giving it about 4.2 out of five.

43:50 Um, so between four and five, which I think Amazon can be quite happy about. Okay. And not that they're gonna care cuz there's enough money there to take a hit. But um, we seem fairly happy with it and I for one is certainly going to follow it all the way through. And if some of it makes me laugh, well that's fine. But mostly I'm just enjoying seeing more images and more, very clever people, creatively reinterpreting TH's world. So good. I really hope they carry on and good luck to them. Um, so my final bet, the end of the second episode Gilad is about to be scooped up out of the sea.

44:33 I'm hoping that that's gonna be a new Manian ship. I know she doesn't in the book go to new Menor if I'm aware, but maybe she does. Um, so that's my bit, anybody else got a bit who's on the ship, Nancy, have you got a view or she may know Nancy's often got the inside track anyway. So we'll find out. I think I. Don't. Have the inside track, but I think it's his silver. Oh, so that would be new Andorian um, in that he was one of the, the elf friends. Yeah. That's even more specific than, than my, my punt. Okay. Thank you everyone. I hope you enjoyed that.

45:19 We reconvene to have a sort of final kick around, I suppose it's gonna be like November or something when it finishes. Um, so we can have a chat and the how it all went. So thank you very much for joining me this evening. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye everybody so much. That was fun. If you enjoyed this discussion, you may like to join us on either one of our in person courses here in Oxford or come on the, uh, six week introduction to fantasy writing course, which starts in October or even if you're further on in your writing journey, the novel in the year course.

46:03 The next one of those starts in January do visit our website to find out more details. But for the moment, thank you very much for listening to myth makers. Thanks. For listening to mythmakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy visit Oxford center for fantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts worldwide.