The Oscars and Fantasy Movies

Hello and welcome to Mythbakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creators brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding, I'm an author and screenwriter and I also run the centre and I'm joined today with my frequent podcast partner Jacob Renica, who's based over in Seattle. He works in the game making industry as in board games, Ravens Berger, but he is also an expert on all things Tolkien. So Jacob, we are in the Oscar season and I was thinking about the relationship between awards and fantasy films because it's often said that fantasy is one of those genres which is not rewarded by those who hand out on the Oscars. Do you think this bears out when you actually look at the list of films that have been winners? Do you think that thesis is correct? Yeah, I think so and it's the purpose that the question is who's doing the voting, what's their expectations when watching a film and as a very specific and certainly the slant is toward films that are more serious that are tackling big questions and especially that have actors that are tortured in some way, some variety of ways, right? Those are the ones that they're looking for like the type of performances that they get. So yeah, so I think it bears out in some sense as a closer that fantasy and fantasy adjacent films get to touching on serious and meaningful subject matter and actors who have some sort of sense of torturedness in their role. That's where we get some of the fantasy films, directing, acting, happening. Usually it's different, right? The directing and visuals, that's kind of like a separate one, but we're talking about like major films like Best Picture. Yeah, I'm best actors. Yeah, I think we should restrict ourselves to talking about the acting awards and the best picture awards because when you actually dig down, obviously, we don't even need to talk about special effects very often, they sweep the balls. And also, I was checking through the animated feature films. Of course, most cartoons are just because you can draw or things, but actually purely fantasy, things like spirited away, wonderful films are one, the Oscar for Best animated feature. Just go and check, there's what's a wonderful Disney product, you know, just really good film. So let's put those to one side. What is lacking in the Best Picture winners? And I was thinking this because I went and had a look in the foyer of the Dolby Theatre back in January and they've list the Best Picture for each year. There is no smash hit there for the fact that there's no Marvel film, for example. And there is a strange choice of those which I would say for slightly uneasily under fantasy films with one exception. So the shape of water, if you remember that rather odd film, that is obviously a fantasy of sorts, but it's very offbeat, very weird. Third man, that's a mixture of fantasy imagination and sort of, but you could say it's within the world of the actor who's in it. That's what I'm saying, it doesn't fit quite. Last year's winner, everything everywhere, all at once, is a kind of sci-fi high concept. But yeah, I suppose you could say that's fantasy. A border on fantasy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe when they do have that element in them, it doesn't stop them winning, but with the only absolute mainstream total, yes, that's a fantasy film is obviously Return of the King, which won the Oscar in 2004, I think it was. And yeah, everybody agrees that's a fantasy film, whereas the others you might describe more as a hybrid of other sorts of genres. But to the performances, and there you really do come up against a problem of them not rewarding performances in a fantasy film. Right, yeah, yeah. And that's yeah, that's to be expected. And with these, I think you're right on with the blending of genres, makes it more palatable, but if it's heavily, it's a genre piece that's heavy fantasy or sci-fi, or even to be fair, like you said, you know, like an action film. If it's kind of a big budget blockbuster action-filled comedies, westerns even, what westerns more so because I think they can get to more of that serious slash, you know, meaningful and tortured performances. But a lot of those kind of like a big budget, mass audience films, those aren't the ones that are being considered here rewarded. So for the actors, it's the same thing. So it's really interesting what the actors in this most recent Oscar round coming up in Barbie, which is a fantasy film, has nominations for best picture and two supporting actors in adapted screenplay, but not for best director or best actor. So Margot Robbie is not even getting a nomination, even though the film is nominated and the supporting actors is really fascinating looking at those, the supporting actors right, Ryan Gosling and Marika Ferreira as kind of like more tortured. Yes, it is Barbie story, but if you look at what characters themselves are having to wrestle with more intensively and that's what they're in, in that degree of supporting actor, not in the primary actor, it's really interesting on how Margot Robbie and the main character for the film would not be nominated, but it's the same film and the same storyline, but the two supporting actors from that fantasy film are nominated. So there's really interesting, I think that's a good demonstration of what is because like Margot Robbie's character is Barbie, most of the way through, right, it's kind of her performance is fairly even and level, whereas the other two are characters that are kind of like yanked from their world and you see them wrestling, at least it's more intensively because I think perhaps less screen time on them, you can see the wrestle a little bit more, it's kind of intense that over the entire film, but yeah, I bet it's a song. Yeah, right, exactly, exactly, the song doesn't matter, but yeah, so the individuals and performances, yeah, so we have like with Lord of the Rings in particular, with as many Academy Awards as it did receive, including your best picture, best director, best screenplay for Margot Robbie King, the only actor nomination or award that you got was for Ian McKellen, just from Fellowship of the Ring, was the only one that was won there. So it's interesting looking at, yeah, the different characters there and there's, yeah, it's, it's hard to say, but that's just an interesting trend. So did Ian McKellen, sorry, did he win something for it? Or was he just nominated? I don't, I thought they was, I didn't think any of them got an acting award. He didn't, he didn't get an award, but it was that it was a nomination. So he was the only one that was nominated, didn't win, but that was even the only nomination across all three films was just Ian McKellen for the, for Fellowship of the Ring. Oh, I've forgotten that. I'm just looking through the list of people, the men who won the acting role. I need to pull up the women because I'm having them back in my mind that maybe Michelle you won one for everything everywhere all at once. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a woman winning a main if we allow that to be a fantasy. Of course, you're like him Phoenix one for being a walking Phoenix. And that's exactly what he said, that it's the tortured. Yeah. And the only, and I'd say like even for like doing like a big budget or even yeah, big budget, Joker versus Dark Knight. So you have two, the only, I would say you're like the two best actor roles in a fantasy type or a fantasy edition film. You have Pete Ledger for the Joker and walking Phoenix for the Joker, both of which performances are these again, like tortured individuals that are vacillating between two different worlds. And so, but it's really interesting that it's the same character that is winning both of those roles. Even though it's different franchises, it's within the same story world of Batman, but that's where you get these Batman is never nominated for or isn't does never get this award for and only can think nominated for best actor. Whereas the villain, the more kind of emotionally complicated and tortured to keep going back to that word, but yeah, so that's that's kind of a anomaly in the best actor wins. Yeah, because I was thinking that Harry Potter was didn't didn't get in the running for any of these. And I was just thinking about the performances, particularly in the later films and in the very last one, which in a way is a war movie. And I do think that Daniel Radcliffe actually acts incredibly well. And we need to turn out to be such a smashing actor. He learned in front of us all, didn't he? And I think that when he actually goes at the end to offer up his life in a way is incredibly moving and is like some kind of war film sacrifice, but nobody ever said, oh, well, maybe Daniel, after having done seven, how many films was it seven or eight films? Maybe he should be given a nomination at least. Nobody, I don't remember that being. Oh, because he's a wizard. Harry. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's somehow you're in a different role. Yeah. And it's great. You know, snake being the source. Yeah. Yeah. That one's one I think would come probably closest to actually happening because of everyone not being halibutman and thinking he just Alan Rickman for right. So if you look it and then I think to just emphasize this point, even more looking at James Cameron films, right? So James Cameron recognized as, you know, one of the influential filmmakers of the past, you know, three decades. You have for Titanic, he does a show on, you know, a film about a historical event, period piece, wins 11, you know, 11 Oscars for Titanic. But and including two best and best and best actor for that film. But for the his other films, right? For the, you know, alien, the abyss, Terminator Avatar, you only get one acting nomination that's for Sigourney Weaver. And there, but it's just even though these films are recognized as being ground breaking and important and significant visually. And then directed the actors in those films that received said praise were not nom and were not even nominated with the exception of Sigourney Weaver there. So you there is definitely a, I would say, I guess bias is an okay word to use, but it's just the sensibility of what they're looking for. I don't know if it's the visual, if they're then if it's put, the film is put into this visual medium rather than the acting medium. But there are those that break through and cross over what we just mentioned with the walking Phoenix and Heath Ledger for Joker, even though those were, but again, both of those films weren't high fantasy. Those were very grounded approaches to the superhero genre. They're very, very grounded with, I don't even think with, especially with Joker, that one being kind of devoid of any sort of technology, any sort of kind of superheroism, it was just kind of more of a character study, whereas the Heath Ledger was set within, clearly, superhero genre, but it was a grounded Christopher Nolan's very grounded approach to storytelling and the superhero genre, as opposed to Marvel films, which is a different beast entirely. Yeah, I mean, looking, I, we obviously need to look at other wards to, I'm looking at the Oscars here, but looking at the acting nods go very, very often, more often than not, it's for somebody who's playing somebody from real life. So you can tell how good they are at being that person. So Brendan Fraser was playing that guy, the, you know, the one with the white issue. Will Smithy, before that was the tennis coach, King Richard, I think it is, isn't it? That one. Rami Malek, Bohemian Rhapsody, obviously, Eddie Mercury, Gary Oldman, Darkest Hour, that's Winston Churchill, Eddie Redmayne, that's Stephen Hawking, I can go on, Lincoln, Daniel Day Lewis, Colin Firth, playing the King, and so on. So it does seem as though that's an easier, it's very hard to judge, fantasy performances when you don't know what they're based on. Maybe that's part of it that we can tell that our fellow actors have done a really good job because we know what they're trying to get at. Maybe it's just easier. You feel more secure in saying, oh, let's vote for Colin Firth, then let's vote for a wizard, you know. I don't know, that might be part of it. But anyway, let's be different from the sort of general Oscar lineup. And let's think about which fantasy performances that have been neglected, would we nominate? Dinner time, it's where little moments are cherished. With Blue Cash preferred, it gets 6% cash back at US Supermarkets and bring everyone together. I did say everyone, learn more at americanexpress.com slash explore dash bcp terms and cash back cap apply with Blue Cash preferred. You can go back as far as you like, but who are the ones who actually when you think about it in the long view which we now have, you think actually that really deserved a nod at the time and nobody nates us. Didn't get it. Yeah, that's a good question. So I think going going part of the far of the spark would be seventh seal. Okay, right. Right. So in the night. Five, seven, right. So yeah. So so that's one. So this incredibly filmed this, you know, this incredibly acted and it didn't get any at the time, no Oscar nominations whatsoever. So that's one that's kind of people have returned to time and again for being incredibly influential piece of cinematography and you know, storytelling and acting. So that's one going way, way back. I know we didn't have acting nominations from Wizard of Oz, Judy Garland or anyone else supporting there, right? So that's one that you didn't have anything there. I am, I am happy that we're on the same time, you know, about two terrible long white Mary Poppins, Julie Anders, one best actress for that. So we did have a female enough fantasy film leading there in 64. But yeah, yeah. So those are some of the older generations. What's kind of coming up more recently in terms of the film and acting. Well, I need to I need to stick one in before we get too much. Yeah. I think actually in retrospect, Harrison Ford in the very first Star Wars as a best supporting actor because he totally revolution, you know, the that he grounded that film. Everybody else is playing, you know, heroic roles with great, great stakes and being all very noble and he's the there as the hustler, the guy who's kind of made it feel real. Because you could understand his motives, he wasn't being powered until, of course, he could come through, you know, that's his arc, his arc is very pleasing. So there's all sorts of things about that performance, which I think really set up the whole Star Wars thing right from the start. So I'd give him a best supporting actor nods if not the prize got anywhere else was around that year, but have been recognized. And you do have Alan Guinness as Ben Kenobi, as we want Kenobi is there, that who actually gets a nomination for support best supporting actor for Star Wars. Oh, does he? Yeah. So you get that nomination there. So then you're so in again, that part, so that that character, right? So like Consolo is being kind of like a archetypal character that brought so much to that role and pivot all of that role, I think being a successful and appealing, just many people did, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, again, this character who's torn between trying to be, you know, a hermit, you know, a hermit, removing himself from the larger stage of intergalactic interplanetary conflict. We then it's forced to come out of that and then ultimately sacrifices his own life. So that that that range of performance and, you know, the caliber of actor that he was. And yeah, he had talks in he. Yeah, right. So so he's doing he's approaching that film with those sensibilities and not seeing it as necessary like a genre piece, but that he's bringing the gravitas of a Shakespearean actor, which is what Ian McKellen did for a gandal, yeah, and Patrick Stewart has that for the ones who's in as well. Exactly, exactly. So I think that's a yeah, so so they're so I think so I'm glad that justice was done to at least Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I would like to say thank you for because I hadn't remembered that. So okay, let's go a bit more up to date. I mean, the world wasn't ready for it, but in retrospect, Gollum, Andy Slash, Andy Circus should have got best supporting actor. Absolutely. Absolutely. Return as the king or two towns. I don't know. I'm not fast to which one they pick, probably two towns actually, because it's more more screen time. And wouldn't it have been fun to see Andy Circus go up with the like leader animator. And the award in the voice of Gollum, I mean, it just should have happened. Right. Yeah, or the tuxedo with little dots on it. Motion capture dots on the tuxedo itself. Yeah. No, that would that I think yeah, absolutely. And that's one that I think now there's more openness to that actually being considered acting. And that's what if you read the book that we actually referenced in another episode on New Zealand, there's a book that the anything you can imagine Peter Jackson making a middle-earth by Ian Nathan talks about that and the complexities of dealing with an actor being seen from the academy and people evaluating, is this a cartoon? How are you evaluating this? Because it's not the person themselves on screen, but it's a motion capture of the person. So there's a whole kind of unexplored area between what is a performance, what's considered and eligible to be considered for an award in a performance. So I absolutely agreed there. I would highlight just a little bit before that, I'm say Groundhog Day with Bill Murray 1993. So this is a fantasy film, a timely one of the first like yeah, fantastic though. Yeah, right. And he is an actor beginning because of the comedy kind of a situational high concept, situational comedy, the high concept might fly, but because it's a comedy that almost like removes the consideration because it's comedic, but the arc that he goes through in that film as a character and the, you know, kind of like the philosophical turn that he makes is fantastic. I appreciate that, but other ones, I think one, again like more recently, a monster calls, did you ever see that one? So 2016, a monster calls, film adaptation of the book. This is how I've been Patrick Ness, collaborating because she wasn't outside. Exactly. Yeah. So that one, that that one is, I saw it in the theater and was actually able to see it kind of as an advanced screening of that one. And because I love the book so much and it's one of the books that I give to people is a monster calls, most frequently that I gift to other people because the combination of the written word and the art that's in there, with Jim Kay, who does the art, who does the art for the illustrated Harry Potter edition. Oh yeah. That come out. So you know, monster calls are just like the powerful interplay between the word and art. But so what they did there, story wise, incredibly moving story, but translating that into film, Patrick Ness did the screenplay for that as well. And so it captures the same sensibilities and as an adaptation into a different medium, he adds something visually and character wise that you don't have in the books that really layered the performance and the story itself and made it kind of a different creature, but like the performances there of Felicity Jones and incredible performance as a, you know, young mother dying of cancer and the the her child is, I can't remember the name of the actor, but he just gave a stunning performance and I don't know what the youngest actor that's been nominated for a one of these awards are, but we have had some, you know, instances or one in the piano, it was very young, wasn't she? Yes, yes, yes, yes, but it's it's a rarity, but you have some and especially now today, child actors are so good, that yes, that's the one that I would like to see, Patrick or Connor O'Malley, the character's name and monster calls the child. He was phenomenal and so see other Felicity Jones or or him and a monster call would be wonderful, well, we're even being considered for best pictures, visual J.E. Boyena, who did, who actually, so he was the director, who also directed the first two episodes of Rings of Pout, so that and like artistic sensibility that he brought to that that cinematically is what's on on display there in a monster call, so yeah. I did not know that connection, so thank you, that taught me something there, so I was wondering, going on your, it has to be a torture performance, I did wonder about the film Logan, because it had Patrick's and yeah, and in it, plus also that young actress, Stephanie, she's got an unusual name, Keen, is that her name? Anyway, she's, so the three of them all give very nuanced proper acting, proper acting performances and I don't, yeah, I think that was one that could have got the nod at some point. Yeah, yeah, with Hugh, Hugh Jackman's performance in that is and even Patrick Stewart for supporting when he's there in the film, both of those, yeah, or again, like that's another one of these superhero genre, but I'll put that in the same class as Joker, yeah, fucking Phoenix, right, that's, that's, that's very grounded and, really, and just more about character study than an emphasis on the fantastical world that these characters are in, it really kind of zeroes in on the character and their internal world and internal journey. So just around this up, I'm going to allow you two picks for films that you think should have been fantasy films from previous eras that should have been in receipt of the best picture for their year, looking at it in retrospect. Yeah, I would necessarily, if I had to, yeah, for that, I would, I didn't think Green Knight most recently a couple of years ago, it's another one that was really good. Really? Oh, yeah, the one with the, the Sagaway in retelling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that one, the performance there, yeah, um, was a div hotel, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, that was truly excellent. So if we're looking at, especially I think like, yeah, more recent films and performances, I would have, yeah, I would as wild didn't happen and might never happen, but I would, yeah, go with Green Knight, depth of talent, Green Knight, and the actor that Connor O'Malley in Monster Calls. Yeah. So I'd go a little bit further back. I was thinking of between ET and close encounters that both of those are actually quite artistic films when you actually look at them now. Maybe ET because, um, it also had the popularity thing behind it, but it says some very profound things. And also the performances of the children, again, were wonderful in that. Yes, incredible. I watched it as a child. So I wasn't analysing it then, but looking at it now, it's, it hasn't aged particularly badly at all. It's still got a lot of legs to it, that one. So yeah, that would have pleased me if that had won a best picture. And I think more recently, well, I don't know, they should give, if going back to my Harry Potter point, it'd be quite nice if they gave a well done having made all those films award because they were very influential films. I don't know that all of them, each one was particularly perfect, but perhaps the one that should have won, one was the third one. The Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, because it up the game, the clever use of the time turner, the sensibility of it, the Gary Oldman, he doesn't think his performance that was great, but I think it was. And also the children, the young people by that stage were getting into their stride as actors. So that was a pretty good film. And the director, yeah, when then that one in particular, it sounds like that's Alfonso Quaron, who directed that one, who has gone on to direct a number of other, even Oscar-winning best pictures. So the film maker that they brought on, tonally, it's different, right? Yeah, from Chris Columbus. Yeah, right, from the earlier, from the first two films, it's very tonally very distinct. And you know what he used getting there, but Alfonso Quaron brought a different sensibility to that. And so it is a little, it grants it like in the story, it does kind of move a little bit, you're following the kids and it makes sense where you're starting out with having this director in this kind of tone and field for the film, because they're kids and they're entering into this one world that's slowly becoming complicated, but then now you're really fully moving into more significant plot complications, as well as age-wise these kids are aging up and teenagers that sort of complicated emotions that they're learning to navigate for the first time is I think an excellent pairing of director that has kind of a different vision and the acting of performance system itself. So absolutely agree there. I mean, I kind of also wanted to say Iron Man as well, but anyway, I've gone with Harry Potter, why not? But there is an argument to be made for the first Iron Man, which I think is a really good film. Anyway, you could go on, couldn't we? We better draw a line there. And if you're listening and you think we've missed a really obvious thing that we should have said, I mean, I haven't even mentioned the Hunger Games or any of those dystopians been off. We ran out of time. Let us know. But in our fantasy tit, Jacob, which of these films would you send people scaring off to see if they haven't seen it yet? I would, I mean, I talked a lot about a monster calls. I would absolutely recommend that film for an effort and especially for this audience, for a fantasy, creatives and fans, that the film itself, the visuals are stunning. You have different Liam Meeson does the voice of the monster. And so I'm a big fan of Liam Meeson's voice. If you like the Aslands voice in Narnia films, it's the same voice. If you like Jedi Masters, it's the same voice. But just like so, the CGI is great. So just like the sensibles are brought there. But then you also have, it's a story about telling stories and the stories we tell ourselves and how stories, unexpected, how stories might not be what they seem and how they can help pull us through difficult times. And so they have within the film, there's a few short animated sequences. The premise of the story is the monster comes to this child who's struggling with a parent who has cancer and he tells him three stories. And these three stories, powerful names of themselves and interesting and playing with expectations. But in the film adaptation, these stories are presented as animated sequences that have these beautiful, colorful, not too dissimilar from the Deathly Hallows animated segment in the theater. That's right. So this is a quite shadow puppetry. It's animated, but not like a fully rendered, it's kind of softer, kind of impressionist approach to that. But storytelling of two different types within the same story about the stories we tell and how they impact us and can help us through the most difficult times that we have in our life. That would be my absolute recommendation if you haven't seen a monster calls 2016. Do yourself a favor and go see that and bring a box of tissues probably with it's not a light popcorn fair. It's definitely one that that will do a stick with you. Yeah, so I might go just to sort of contrast with that. I might go into like sci-fi because we haven't really spent much time. I know people say 2001 Space Odyssey is like the most amazing film. I never actually particularly liked that film so I'm not going to recommend it. I think you have to watch it if you're a film buff just to say you've watched it. But actually I'm sort of torn between two and three. So I'm going Star Trek because Star Trek occasionally produces something really, really interesting. So Star Trek first contact is one of the Patrick Stewart ones. Has some really interesting questions in it about artificial intelligence and the nature of feeling and the nature of being human is well acted. A lot of Patrick Stewart who I think is a great actor but a great supporting cast. So that's my favorite of the Star Trek films until the reboot because the other one I was going to say is Star Trek one reboot with Chris Pine is great. Just such a good film about how to do interesting science fiction keeping the focus on relationships and not spectacle. I kind of get a bit lost sometimes in the Star Wars films when they go in for lots of starscapes. I prefer the Star Trek relationship emphasis. But it's always got to be when I come down to it, it's always got to be Galaxy Quest. Yes, to bring someone back into it. I've said it before I'll keep on saying it until the whole world has watched Galaxy Quest and laughed because that is such. It's got Scorney Weaver. It's got Alan Bickwin. Oscar nominee. Yeah. It's just such a fabulous well-constructed hilarious film and it's the one which I I won't tire rewatching and it is obviously a fantasy film but it also has fun of fantasy. It makes fun of fantasy. It's certainly self-aware. Yeah, so if ever you want to cheer yourself up and think I fancy something which is funny but also fantasy that is a good one to go for. Right, well Jacob thank you very much for talking this through with me and good luck to everybody at the Oscars. Thanks for listening to MythMakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCenterForFatasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.