A Most Unquenchable Hobbit! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 11

100:00:04.620 --> 00:00:06.780Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.200:00:07.320 --> 00:00:12.580Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you300:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.420by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.400:00:14.820 --> 00:00:19.900My name is Julia Golding and I have been running a series over the last500:00:19.900 --> 00:00:24.100few months, well actually it's every year now I think, where we have been600:00:24.100 --> 00:00:29.520slowly reading our way through Lord of the Rings and we have reached chapter 11700:00:29.520 --> 00:00:34.760in book three, that's basically halfway through the two towers and that chapter800:00:34.760 --> 00:00:40.680is called the Palantir and we'll be taking a look at it primarily with a900:00:40.680 --> 00:00:44.380view to seeing what Tolkien is doing as an author.1000:00:45.260 --> 00:00:47.600Okay, so first of all, cards on the table.1100:00:47.900 --> 00:00:55.480This particular chapter I find really hard to read and that is because it is1200:00:55.480 --> 00:01:00.940the chapter where Pippin goes and looks in the Palantir, the seeing stone and I1300:01:00.940 --> 00:01:05.340find that a sort of really difficult thing to read or watch is that cringe1400:01:05.340 --> 00:01:10.900factor, the oh don't do it, don't do it thing and that is actually a1500:01:10.900 --> 00:01:12.520sign of powerful writing.1600:01:13.200 --> 00:01:20.120If you have your audience sort of flinching it means that you're really getting1700:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.500at them so it's both good and painful.1800:01:23.120 --> 00:01:28.320Your plot has to feel as though it's going to fail as in it's not1900:01:28.320 --> 00:01:32.580definitely going to be a happily ever after and this is one of those chapters2000:01:32.580 --> 00:01:36.780where we have a knife edge moment which is very well written.2100:01:37.300 --> 00:01:44.140It's also a chapter which demonstrates the tinkering that Tolkien did.2200:01:44.260 --> 00:01:47.760Now he is a famous tinkerer, I mean the Silmarillion was never finished in his2300:01:47.760 --> 00:01:52.000lifetime because he was always changing things, doing a little bit more here2400:01:52.000 --> 00:01:58.300and there and this chapter shows him tinkering away partly because as we2500:01:58.300 --> 00:02:04.360covered in the previous episode on this, that the idea of the Palantir came to2600:02:04.360 --> 00:02:06.020him as he was writing.2700:02:06.260 --> 00:02:11.320It wasn't something he'd thought through before so it wasn't completely woven2800:02:11.320 --> 00:02:18.520in how he wanted it to be so he went back in later editions and2900:02:18.520 --> 00:02:24.840slightly changed wording to represent the new status that Palantir had.3000:02:25.200 --> 00:02:27.580I'm not going to go into the detail of what he did but if you3100:02:27.580 --> 00:02:31.720have a first edition and you compare it to later editions you'll see there are3200:02:31.720 --> 00:02:36.380slightly different things that Gandalf says and so on.3300:02:36.440 --> 00:02:43.000This is because he didn't quite, I mean it's pretty well woven in but he3400:02:43.000 --> 00:02:48.680felt as though he needed to digest that idea a bit more and it's also3500:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.980interesting because the Palantir themselves he wrote about in the Unfinished3600:02:53.980 --> 00:02:59.040Tales so you can get some extra information about what he thought about them3700:02:59.040 --> 00:03:03.760later on by looking at the Unfinished Tales so I would recommend if you've got3800:03:03.760 --> 00:03:07.360a copy of the Unfinished Tales, it's only a short bit, go and have a3900:03:07.360 --> 00:03:08.820read of that section.4000:03:09.660 --> 00:03:13.460Okay, so what is the structure of this particular chapter?4100:03:13.780 --> 00:03:20.340It's a series of conversations really and I would say it has the theme of4200:03:20.340 --> 00:03:24.360unquenchable hobbits and curiosity.4300:03:24.880 --> 00:03:29.120That is the thread that everything is strung on.4400:03:30.020 --> 00:03:36.160So we've got a Merry and Gandalf conversation, then a Merry and Pippin and then4500:03:36.160 --> 00:03:44.080in the center there's a Pippin and Sauron conversation, then there's Gandalf4600:03:44.080 --> 00:03:50.600and Pippin and Gandalf and Aragorn and then finally when they're on Shadowfax4700:03:50.600 --> 00:03:55.160there's a Gandalf and Pippin long conversation which is different from all the4800:03:55.160 --> 00:04:00.000others because it gives a bit more about lore and the history of Middle-earth4900:04:00.000 --> 00:04:00.540and so on.5000:04:01.240 --> 00:04:06.180But it's very much lots of information is conveyed in this particular chapter5100:04:06.180 --> 00:04:10.080and of course it falls at the end of Book 3.5200:04:10.360 --> 00:04:16.440So for the organizing principle of Lord of the Rings, it falls halfway because5300:04:16.440 --> 00:04:20.019it's roughly halfway through the story.5400:04:22.330 --> 00:04:28.070So we actually start though, we're still in Isengard, we're about to leave and5500:04:28.070 --> 00:04:32.910we get a last glimpse in this book of Treebeard and the Ents.5600:04:33.470 --> 00:04:41.350And it's interesting here that one of the things Tolkien does is Merry and5700:04:41.350 --> 00:04:45.330Pippin, who are our points of view at this point, they are circling back in5800:04:45.330 --> 00:04:49.270their own minds to the first time they meet Treebeard.5900:04:49.350 --> 00:04:54.810That's quite an elegant way of summing up this episode with the Ents, seeing6000:04:54.810 --> 00:04:59.590him being like an old tree stump, his move from the forest to being on6100:04:59.590 --> 00:05:01.640the doorstep of Orthanc.6200:05:02.700 --> 00:05:06.640And we also get the Ents lined up either side.6300:05:06.760 --> 00:05:09.660Now, I do know I've never noticed this detail before.6400:05:10.020 --> 00:05:12.840I think I've always read past it a little bit too quickly.6500:05:13.740 --> 00:05:17.100But this time, obviously, because I'm doing it for this podcast, I was6600:05:17.100 --> 00:05:18.440thinking, well, what does that look like?6700:05:18.480 --> 00:05:24.840And it made me think that actually they're like an honor guard escorting out6800:05:26.080 --> 00:05:28.240Ferdinand and Gandalf and Aragorn.6900:05:28.780 --> 00:05:31.200But it also is an avenue of trees.7000:05:32.120 --> 00:05:33.700They can be both at the same time.7100:05:33.800 --> 00:05:37.020So it's a rather beautiful picture, which I'm pleased I lingered over this7200:05:37.020 --> 00:05:37.340time.7300:05:38.060 --> 00:05:44.120And it's also a sense that the gardens that used to surround Orthanc are going7400:05:44.120 --> 00:05:49.540to be recreated later on, I believe, towards the end.7500:05:49.980 --> 00:05:54.600Treebeard calls it the Tree Garth of Orthanc, which is a lovely way of saying7600:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.600it's going to be full of trees and why not an avenue of trees?7700:05:58.880 --> 00:06:04.280And as they leave, the riders get as far as the White Hand, which they7800:06:04.280 --> 00:06:07.480had met on their way in, which has now been destroyed.7900:06:07.820 --> 00:06:12.220And Gandalf sort of sums up this whole episode by saying, the Ents pay8000:06:12.220 --> 00:06:13.880attention to every detail.8100:06:14.100 --> 00:06:19.660They've come out this far and destroyed the last symbol of Saruman's power.8200:06:20.680 --> 00:06:25.480So the next section is Merry and Gandalf riding together and having a8300:06:25.480 --> 00:06:26.220conversation.8400:06:27.000 --> 00:06:31.960And it's mainly the purpose of this conversation is a little bit picking up8500:06:33.200 --> 00:06:38.640from the previous chapter about what Saruman's state of mind might be.8600:06:39.460 --> 00:06:46.020But it is also and introducing this theme of the unquenchable Hobbit.8700:06:47.560 --> 00:06:54.400So Gandalf tells Merry, who makes this comment that he's a ragtag, sort of8800:06:54.400 --> 00:06:58.260riding alongside with Gandalf, which is picking up.8900:06:59.260 --> 00:07:03.100You'll hear the echo from the previous chapter, bringing it forward into here.9000:07:04.000 --> 00:07:10.240And Gandalf says, a sneer from him, Saruman, Merryadoc is a compliment.9100:07:12.560 --> 00:07:19.760And Merry isn't letting this subject rest and he carries on asking questions.9200:07:19.960 --> 00:07:22.980I mean, Gandalf, if you think about it from Gandalf's point of view, he's just9300:07:22.980 --> 00:07:26.900had this big showdown with the former head of his order.9400:07:28.340 --> 00:07:33.400He's broken his staff and he probably wants just to have a quiet think and9500:07:33.400 --> 00:07:35.060Merry is full of questions.9600:07:35.720 --> 00:07:42.240And so in response, we get this very Gandalfian phrase, a most unquenchable9700:07:42.240 --> 00:07:42.780Hobbit.9800:07:43.620 --> 00:07:47.940All wizards should have a Hobbit or two in their care to teach them the9900:07:47.940 --> 00:07:50.020meaning of the word and to correct them.10000:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.040Now that last bit and to correct them is slightly ambiguous, but I think10100:07:55.040 --> 00:08:02.300because the them isn't clear, but I don't think it's to correct the Hobbits,10200:08:02.640 --> 00:08:03.940though he does do that quite a lot.10300:08:04.200 --> 00:08:09.520I think it's more that the Hobbits correct the wizards when they're being too10400:08:09.520 --> 00:08:11.660wizardly and a bit too big for their boots.10500:08:12.740 --> 00:08:20.940So it's a character note here on Gandalf that even when he's tired and come10600:08:20.940 --> 00:08:26.320out of a major confrontation, he has a sense of humour and he's also doesn't10700:08:26.320 --> 00:08:28.360consider himself infallible.10800:08:28.500 --> 00:08:34.539So we've moved from this heightened confrontation to humour, Gandalf laughs, of10900:08:34.539 --> 00:08:36.740course, warmth and relief.11000:08:38.659 --> 00:08:45.960But also Merry gives the writer here, gives Tolkien as the author, the11100:08:45.960 --> 00:08:53.460curiosity of the Hobbit gives him the chance to regain momentum, so exiting out11200:08:53.460 --> 00:08:57.760of this particular episode.11300:08:58.020 --> 00:09:02.300If you think of someone doing a floor gymnastics display, they do their amazing11400:09:02.300 --> 00:09:06.520flips and they land it, but then they have to move into the next section.11500:09:06.960 --> 00:09:09.140Then we're into that next section here.11600:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.020And it also gives the, as well as regaining momentum, it also gives Tolkien the11700:09:16.020 --> 00:09:17.720chance to explain the stakes.11800:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.240In a big complicated book like this, you may know Lord of the Rings so11900:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.200well, you already understand what the stakes are.12000:09:25.260 --> 00:09:29.060But if you go back to thinking what it was like when you first read12100:09:29.060 --> 00:09:35.360it, it is a complicated story with a number of different battlefronts with a12200:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.100number of different enemies and so on.12300:09:38.700 --> 00:09:44.700Gandalf explains it to Merry, Merry is basically us, stands for the reader in12400:09:44.700 --> 00:09:46.800this particular set of questions.12500:09:47.680 --> 00:09:52.900And Gandalf says, yes, we have won, but only the first victory, don't put the12600:09:52.900 --> 00:09:54.880book down now, we've got lots more to do.12700:09:55.520 --> 00:09:57.980And that in itself increases our danger.12800:09:59.040 --> 00:10:04.280So remember, always keep the tension, keep raising the tension, you've got to12900:10:04.280 --> 00:10:07.080keep on raising the stakes, raising the tension.13000:10:07.560 --> 00:10:12.300So you may have a little bit of laughter and relief, but the longer perspective13100:10:12.300 --> 00:10:13.620is it's not over.13200:10:14.100 --> 00:10:16.760Otherwise, you'll lose your audience, won't you?13300:10:17.880 --> 00:10:22.440Okay, so Merry is standing in for us, he's giving the author a chance to13400:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.280reiterate what's exactly at stake.13500:10:26.020 --> 00:10:30.940I want to draw your attention now to one of those lovely little hidden bits13600:10:30.940 --> 00:10:34.140of Tolkien, you know how much I like these, if you've been listening to this.13700:10:34.700 --> 00:10:41.320And that is their campsite, where this incident with the Palantir takes place.13800:10:42.080 --> 00:10:46.860I never really noticed the how specific the details are.13900:10:47.760 --> 00:10:54.320In the film, if you're coming at this from a Peter Jackson version, this14000:10:54.320 --> 00:10:59.340happens in Edoras, in a building, it's probably easier to film.14100:11:00.340 --> 00:11:05.820But actually, isn't it nice to be out in the wild on this journey?14200:11:06.400 --> 00:11:08.760And there's a lovely detail here.14300:11:09.500 --> 00:11:14.900They lit a fire in a hollow, down among the roots were spreading hawthorn, tall14400:11:14.900 --> 00:11:18.780as a tree, rhythm with age, but hail in every limb.14500:11:19.700 --> 00:11:22.980Buds were swelling at each twig's tip.14600:11:23.800 --> 00:11:26.380Buds were swelling at each twig's tip.14700:11:26.880 --> 00:11:27.620Quite hard to say.14800:11:28.300 --> 00:11:31.680But also very specific.14900:11:31.900 --> 00:11:33.920It's a way of telling us where we are in the season.15000:11:34.680 --> 00:11:40.760Hawthorns, for anyone who's not in the UK countryside, are a very common15100:11:40.760 --> 00:11:43.320hedging shrub.15200:11:45.320 --> 00:11:50.320They have spikes on, but they are one of the first shrubs that come into15300:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.040leaf as spring arrives.15400:11:53.380 --> 00:11:56.560So the hawthorn has leaves first, then flowers.15500:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.360The blackthorn has flowers first, then leaves.15600:11:59.520 --> 00:12:00.800I bet Tolkien knew the difference.15700:12:01.340 --> 00:12:05.240And here, we've got the buds coming of the future leaves.15800:12:06.040 --> 00:12:07.860Anyway, I like how specific this is.15900:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.120I can walk around the countryside where I live, spot the hawthorns and think,16000:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.680yeah, that's the kind of hawthorn they were under.16100:12:14.880 --> 00:12:17.960And then we move into the Merry and Pippin conversation.16200:12:19.180 --> 00:12:22.620So it's like the second movement, really, in this particular chapter.16300:12:24.360 --> 00:12:30.320And note how Tolkien starts to wind up the more immediate danger here.16400:12:30.920 --> 00:12:33.880We've laid the bigger stakes, but there's a new danger, which none of them16500:12:33.880 --> 00:12:37.000expect is about to happen.16600:12:37.340 --> 00:12:41.000Though if you've been reading carefully, you would have picked up some of those16700:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.960warning notes when Pippin ran to pick up the palantir in that section in the16800:12:46.960 --> 00:12:48.000previous chapter.16900:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.920And we get it sort of starting here where the sour note comes in.17000:12:54.380 --> 00:12:57.400It would be like a jarring note in a musical theme.17100:12:58.460 --> 00:13:02.180When you're reading this carefully, you can see what's going to happen.17200:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.860And this is where the cringe factor comes because you're given plenty of time17300:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.440to anticipate what he's going to do.17400:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.060And it begins with the prosaic off note of, are you lying on an anthill?17500:13:12.820 --> 00:13:14.520Pippin is restless.17600:13:15.940 --> 00:13:19.720And this section is given mainly from Merry's point of view.17700:13:19.900 --> 00:13:23.540We're still with Merry because Pippin is being secretive.17800:13:24.240 --> 00:13:25.060Never a good sign.17900:13:26.920 --> 00:13:30.980And he's also speaking as close as he ever gets to Gollum.18000:13:31.360 --> 00:13:32.780He says, I picked it up.18100:13:32.900 --> 00:13:33.800I saved it.18200:13:33.880 --> 00:13:34.500Me, me, me.18300:13:35.400 --> 00:13:36.700Another very bad sign.18400:13:37.300 --> 00:13:45.040Merry, who doesn't realize just how serious this is, he tries to turn Pippin18500:13:45.040 --> 00:13:48.620away from those thoughts by mentioning Gildor's saying.18600:13:49.580 --> 00:13:51.580And he also just mentioned Sam here.18700:13:51.740 --> 00:13:54.340Don't forget that this story is really about Frodo and Sam.18800:13:55.280 --> 00:13:59.580He says, Sam used to repeat the saying, do not meddle in the affairs of18900:13:59.580 --> 00:14:03.000wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.19000:14:03.880 --> 00:14:08.400We do see a bit of temper from Gandalf, though we see more mercy than19100:14:08.400 --> 00:14:08.800temper.19200:14:09.880 --> 00:14:11.860But still, he's saying, watch out.19300:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.000This really isn't for a hobbit to meddle in.19400:14:15.520 --> 00:14:23.680Another sign of danger is that Pippin is being, I would say, a little bit19500:14:23.680 --> 00:14:24.060mocking.19600:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.300He talks about Gandalf being like a hen with an egg.19700:14:29.620 --> 00:14:30.800It's not that funny.19800:14:31.100 --> 00:14:33.860It's sort of funny, but also it's not that funny.19900:14:34.920 --> 00:14:38.440And this doesn't feel like the normal Pippin.20000:14:38.980 --> 00:14:40.780He's not being straightforward.20100:14:40.980 --> 00:14:44.380He hasn't gone up to Gandalf and said, think about the other options.20200:14:44.780 --> 00:14:46.360Can I have another look at that, please?20300:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.440That would be what a normal Pippin would do.20400:14:49.580 --> 00:14:50.860I really want to know what that's about.20500:14:50.960 --> 00:14:51.680Can you show me?20600:14:52.140 --> 00:14:54.520But no, he is hiding.20700:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.220And basically, he is sneaking.20800:14:57.900 --> 00:15:00.180Remember that word that comes up later, doesn't it?20900:15:01.020 --> 00:15:03.820Anyway, so Merry goes to sleep without being aware.21000:15:04.280 --> 00:15:08.040And then we switch the point of view to Pippin.21100:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.000And this is brilliantly painful.21200:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.360This is why I find it really hard to read.21300:15:13.180 --> 00:15:17.340We get this intriguing image of the sleeping Gandalf, which was actually done21400:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.320in the film very well by Ian McKellen.21500:15:19.700 --> 00:15:22.480You get the glitter of eyes under his long lashes.21600:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.680He sleeps with his eyes slightly open.21700:15:26.320 --> 00:15:33.440And Pippin does this sneaky thing of switching a stone for the palantir so that21800:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.020Gandalf isn't aware that it's gone.21900:15:37.160 --> 00:15:41.540And then he does this self-justification.22000:15:42.020 --> 00:15:43.760He sort of begins to have cold feet.22100:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.280And then he says, oh, well, I can't put it back now.22200:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.320I might as well have a look first.22300:15:51.220 --> 00:15:55.400So he's slipping further and further into this sneaky behaviour.22400:15:56.460 --> 00:15:58.400And then the point of view shifts.22500:15:59.540 --> 00:16:02.260So we do have, this is a third-person narration.22600:16:02.460 --> 00:16:05.680And in third-person narration, you can sort of skim in and out of various22700:16:05.680 --> 00:16:05.900things.22800:16:06.020 --> 00:16:09.580It's very hard to do well, by the way, not the easiest stance to take22900:16:09.580 --> 00:16:15.680if you're writing your first novel, because the rules are a bit loose.23000:16:16.460 --> 00:16:21.440But here we move from it being sort of Pippin talking to looking at him23100:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.320from the outside.23200:16:22.540 --> 00:16:24.540And I was thinking, well, what point of view do we have?23300:16:24.640 --> 00:16:29.260In a way, it's almost as though the moon is the point of view, because23400:16:29.260 --> 00:16:34.400one of the last images we get is the moon looking over at Pippin and23500:16:34.400 --> 00:16:35.640he's shown by moonlight.23600:16:35.640 --> 00:16:37.880But it's probably more the narrator.23700:16:38.840 --> 00:16:43.360It's kind of, we are like the moon looking down with the narrator on Pippin.23800:16:43.900 --> 00:16:49.220He bent low over it, it being the palantir, looking like a greedy child23900:16:49.220 --> 00:16:53.900stooping over a bowl of food in a corner away from others.24000:16:54.820 --> 00:16:55.720Pippin is boyish.24100:16:55.760 --> 00:16:58.960He's one of the youngest in the company, if not the youngest.24200:16:59.540 --> 00:17:02.620But this isn't a good image of childhood.24300:17:02.820 --> 00:17:07.440It is greed, that sort of classic greed.24400:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.520And the thing that you've gone away, you've hidden your secret stash, all of24500:17:14.520 --> 00:17:17.660these things are massive red warning lights.24600:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.180We're outside his experience.24700:17:21.760 --> 00:17:23.480So we're watching him do this.24800:17:23.800 --> 00:17:28.240We don't know what he did when he looked into the stone.24900:17:28.340 --> 00:17:29.920We only see his reactions.25000:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.980And this is that technique, you hold back the information.25100:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.160And we don't find out until he confesses.25200:17:39.980 --> 00:17:42.140So we keep the tension going.25300:17:42.360 --> 00:17:46.960Has he basically said, watch out, Sauron, you've got a ring bearer coming25400:17:46.960 --> 00:17:47.480towards you?25500:17:47.560 --> 00:17:48.280Has he said that?25600:17:48.580 --> 00:17:53.060That is all the possibilities, which of course is rushing through Gandalf's25700:17:53.060 --> 00:17:58.400mind when Pippin's sort of cry alerts everybody.25800:17:59.320 --> 00:18:05.040And Gandalf says, the devilry, what mischief has he done to himself and to all25900:18:05.040 --> 00:18:05.500of us?26000:18:05.700 --> 00:18:11.220Which if you hadn't realised as a reader at this point, that there was anything26100:18:11.220 --> 00:18:15.100terribly wrong with what he was doing, though I think you would, this is the26200:18:15.100 --> 00:18:19.420moment when you see actually this quest hangs on the edge of a knife.26300:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.560It might fall, it might fail.26400:18:24.630 --> 00:18:32.330Then we get the interrogation scene, which is horrific, because if we love26500:18:32.330 --> 00:18:38.830Pippin, as we do by now, he's ventriloquising as if possessed by Sauron.26600:18:39.550 --> 00:18:42.750He says, it is not for you, Saruman.26700:18:43.450 --> 00:18:45.890He's speaking in the voice of Sauron.26800:18:46.330 --> 00:18:55.190In fact, Pippin, in a sense, is the closest any of the companions have got26900:18:55.190 --> 00:18:56.290to Sauron so far.27000:18:56.670 --> 00:19:00.410Clearly Frodo sees him through the ring and the whisperings of the ring and27100:19:00.410 --> 00:19:02.390Aragorn will later look in the same stone.27200:19:03.030 --> 00:19:08.070But Pippin is the first to actually report back, shall we say, what is going27300:19:08.070 --> 00:19:09.110on in Barad-dûr.27400:19:09.770 --> 00:19:11.850So it is a big, big scene.27500:19:12.730 --> 00:19:22.310And notice that Sauron says, to him, a hobbit is it, not a person, just27600:19:22.310 --> 00:19:22.830a thing.27700:19:23.150 --> 00:19:25.750And that is, of course, his attitude to Middle-earth.27800:19:27.370 --> 00:19:33.410And then Pippin snaps back into himself and we know he's back in himself27900:19:33.410 --> 00:19:35.470because he says, Gandalf, forgive me.28000:19:35.710 --> 00:19:39.790The plea for forgiveness is the Pippin voice.28100:19:41.030 --> 00:19:42.270So we don't know.28200:19:42.510 --> 00:19:44.350Remember, we've kept this tension going.28300:19:45.590 --> 00:19:53.890Tolkien's holding back the answers and then Gandalf persuades Pippin to28400:19:53.890 --> 00:19:54.450confess.28500:19:55.170 --> 00:19:59.010And Pippin upburdens himself of his experience.28600:19:59.890 --> 00:20:01.650He explains what he saw.28700:20:02.530 --> 00:20:06.150And then it sort of comes to this culmination of, then he came.28800:20:06.370 --> 00:20:08.350He isn't named, it's italicized.28900:20:09.450 --> 00:20:11.690A bit like Voldemort in Harry Potter.29000:20:12.010 --> 00:20:13.510It's he who will not be named.29100:20:13.590 --> 00:20:15.390He doesn't say Sauron, but he came.29200:20:15.910 --> 00:20:16.430And it took me a while.29300:20:16.530 --> 00:20:19.330I was thinking, well, is this like the chief Nazgûl?29400:20:19.570 --> 00:20:21.210But no, it's happening in Barad-dûr.29500:20:22.070 --> 00:20:25.370Of course, technically, Sauron is disembodied.29600:20:25.530 --> 00:20:30.370But of course, he could project himself in a shape or a form in a29700:20:30.370 --> 00:20:31.250palantir, couldn't he?29800:20:31.330 --> 00:20:33.610So I think it all lines up.29900:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.410But he's obviously got a voice and he's got a look.30000:20:37.610 --> 00:20:38.490Maybe it's the eye.30100:20:39.870 --> 00:20:46.070So I think we have a sense that the presence of Sauron is what Pippin30200:20:46.070 --> 00:20:47.350is exposed to.30300:20:48.890 --> 00:20:51.870But Sauron is not all-knowing.30400:20:52.050 --> 00:20:53.010He's too greedy.30500:20:53.370 --> 00:20:56.290So he is like the boy crouched over the bowl of food.30600:20:56.430 --> 00:20:58.750He wants to get Pippin for himself.30700:20:59.410 --> 00:21:04.610So he, equally, Saruman and Sauron both are too greedy.30800:21:05.110 --> 00:21:08.690And that is a fatal flaw because he doesn't stop and interrogate Pippin30900:21:08.690 --> 00:21:09.090properly.31000:21:10.050 --> 00:21:13.690He just says, this dainty is for me, not for you, Saruman.31100:21:14.550 --> 00:21:17.270Gandalf is able to see into Pippin's heart.31200:21:17.870 --> 00:21:20.610And he says, he's a fool, but an honest fool.31300:21:20.770 --> 00:21:21.450He remains.31400:21:21.590 --> 00:21:21.990You remain.31500:21:22.210 --> 00:21:24.010And he says, I forgive you.31600:21:24.430 --> 00:21:29.930And he also pretty much immediately says, my dear Hobbit, he's warmer towards31700:21:29.930 --> 00:21:33.350Pippin after this than he has been for a while.31800:21:33.990 --> 00:21:40.770So that shows the mercy that is the response of Gandalf to these situations31900:21:40.770 --> 00:21:43.070where people fail or fail him.32000:21:44.810 --> 00:21:50.930And then we get a reference to the first conversation Gandalf had with Merry.32100:21:51.790 --> 00:21:57.330He says to Aragorn, who's worried about Pippin as well, Hobbits have an amazing32200:21:57.330 --> 00:21:58.770power of recovery.32300:21:59.010 --> 00:22:00.250They are unquenchable.32400:22:02.250 --> 00:22:07.590And we get a small scene here, which is the shift in Aragorn's position.32500:22:08.370 --> 00:22:13.410So if we're thinking about the big character arc of Aragorn, he has been moving32600:22:13.410 --> 00:22:15.250closer and closer to Gondor.32700:22:16.490 --> 00:22:21.370He has declared himself when he arrived in Rohan.32800:22:22.870 --> 00:22:24.730He has presented his sword.32900:22:24.850 --> 00:22:25.990The sword has been in battle.33000:22:26.370 --> 00:22:28.030So he's getting step by step closer.33100:22:29.030 --> 00:22:32.330I note the sword was already there and it does not arrive later as in33200:22:32.330 --> 00:22:33.790the film version of this.33300:22:34.790 --> 00:22:39.370He takes a step towards the return of the king, which is obviously good because33400:22:39.370 --> 00:22:40.510we're at the end of this book.33500:22:41.070 --> 00:22:44.450And the next time he arrives, he's going to be at the beginning of Return33600:22:44.450 --> 00:22:48.250of the King, which is his big moment.33700:22:49.590 --> 00:22:53.470When Gandalf asks him to look after the Palantir, he says it is his by33800:22:53.470 --> 00:22:53.830right.33900:22:54.230 --> 00:22:58.270He's stepping up to become the king of Gondor and Arnor.34000:22:59.610 --> 00:23:01.790And Gandalf recognizes this moment.34100:23:02.010 --> 00:23:03.830He bowed and presented it.34200:23:04.450 --> 00:23:05.870It's a formal moment.34300:23:06.710 --> 00:23:09.650And we have a gear shift, don't we, in their relationship.34400:23:09.830 --> 00:23:12.930They've already been sort of companions on the road, but now it's more like34500:23:12.930 --> 00:23:18.430king's counselor and king, which is how it will be in the war councils going34600:23:18.430 --> 00:23:18.810forward.34700:23:20.150 --> 00:23:24.770And you see the balance in the relationship that Gandalf feels able to counsel34800:23:24.770 --> 00:23:30.650and Aragorn feels able to accept part or some of the counsel.34900:23:32.190 --> 00:23:38.230So when Gandalf says, take care with this, don't rush to use it.35000:23:39.250 --> 00:23:45.530Aragorn says, when have I been hasty or unwary who have waited and prepared for35100:23:45.530 --> 00:23:47.070so many long years?35200:23:48.130 --> 00:23:53.410So he's beginning to say, well, if I'm king, I need to be able to35300:23:53.410 --> 00:23:56.470make these decisions on my own, listening to my counselors.35400:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.270And you can see this changing at this moment.35500:23:59.550 --> 00:24:02.710It sort of slips by, but I think it is an important moment.35600:24:03.630 --> 00:24:06.830The other thing here is that Gandalf is blaming himself.35700:24:07.930 --> 00:24:16.630Pippin's caused this ruckus, but he admits to Aragorn, he feels he should have35800:24:16.630 --> 00:24:17.850known what was going on.35900:24:19.730 --> 00:24:22.030And Aragorn says something quite interesting here.36000:24:22.030 --> 00:24:26.290I think this is Tolkien talking to himself, answering his own plot point.36100:24:26.970 --> 00:24:31.170At last, we know the link between Isengard and Mordor and how it worked.36200:24:31.610 --> 00:24:35.910It may have been narratively speaking, a question Tolkien had in his back of36300:24:35.910 --> 00:24:36.390his mind.36400:24:37.150 --> 00:24:40.550Remember, he didn't know the Palantir existed until Wormtongue threw it out.36500:24:40.670 --> 00:24:42.190And then he thought, aha, Palantir.36600:24:43.650 --> 00:24:46.450And so he thought, yeah, that will solve this plot problem.36700:24:46.450 --> 00:24:51.730So when you're writing, look out for those moments where you can use a detail36800:24:51.730 --> 00:24:54.470to tie your plot together more elegantly.36900:24:56.270 --> 00:25:00.470And Gandalf goes on to say, it was strangely fortunate he was saved by the37000:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.730Hobbit, perhaps from looking in himself.37100:25:05.190 --> 00:25:09.630And Aragorn says, well, don't you think it's time you came out of the shadows?37200:25:09.870 --> 00:25:12.450And Gandalf is sort of explaining the strategy.37300:25:12.610 --> 00:25:15.410We have to use this short while of doubt.37400:25:16.170 --> 00:25:17.810We have been too leisurely.37500:25:17.950 --> 00:25:18.550We must move.37600:25:18.870 --> 00:25:19.850We've got to get ahead.37700:25:20.350 --> 00:25:22.910We've got to get in front of the enemy now.37800:25:23.030 --> 00:25:24.910We may capitalize on this victory.37900:25:25.430 --> 00:25:30.250This does feel like the sort of debates that were going on in World War38000:25:30.250 --> 00:25:30.510II.38100:25:30.830 --> 00:25:36.030This is being written in the darkest days of the World War.38200:25:36.710 --> 00:25:41.850And so he would be thinking of the sort of discussions that were going on38300:25:41.850 --> 00:25:47.470in the papers about how to get ahead of the Nazis.38400:25:48.410 --> 00:25:50.490So in a way, it feels very real.38500:25:50.790 --> 00:25:51.950Is this the right thing to do?38600:25:52.030 --> 00:25:53.350Should we show our hand now?38700:25:53.450 --> 00:25:54.790Should we put our forces there?38800:25:55.090 --> 00:25:57.150It has that feeling of reality.38900:25:57.370 --> 00:26:00.330And the best fantasy does feel real, doesn't it?39000:26:00.410 --> 00:26:04.070And I feel this is one of those little discussions where it's not obvious what39100:26:04.070 --> 00:26:04.690they should do.39200:26:05.350 --> 00:26:07.110But he knows that speed is needed.39300:26:08.410 --> 00:26:11.070And the arrival of the Nazgûl confirms that.39400:26:12.270 --> 00:26:16.750An overflight of a Nazgûl heading to Isengard.39500:26:18.290 --> 00:26:23.050And Gandalf said something here, which is quite abrupt and it feels a bit like39600:26:23.050 --> 00:26:24.090it might have made them panic.39700:26:24.250 --> 00:26:28.090But anyway, let not the swift wait for the slow ride.39800:26:28.490 --> 00:26:33.370So off he goes, grabbing Pippin without any of Pippin's stuff.39900:26:34.010 --> 00:26:37.610Gandalf just picks up his own pack and off they go and ride away.40000:26:38.090 --> 00:26:43.190And there's a little tiny little scene here where poor old Mary is grumbling40100:26:43.190 --> 00:26:46.230after the drama being left behind.40200:26:46.410 --> 00:26:50.390And Aragorn says, in his corrective, you might have done worse.40300:26:50.810 --> 00:26:53.370So you point the finger at Pippin, but you might have done worse.40400:26:53.610 --> 00:26:54.170I don't know.40500:26:54.490 --> 00:26:59.670I mean, Mary in some ways has a bit more common sense, doesn't he?40600:26:59.770 --> 00:27:01.730But fair enough, we take the point, Aragorn.40700:27:02.170 --> 00:27:04.750Who knows what we would have done facing the Palantir.40800:27:05.790 --> 00:27:13.610So the last part of this chapter changes gear completely because we get a40900:27:13.610 --> 00:27:15.110moment of peace.41000:27:15.250 --> 00:27:20.410When you've got a character like Gandalf, who feels like a safe haven, if41100:27:20.410 --> 00:27:25.170you're with Gandalf, particularly if you're sitting in front of him in a horse,41200:27:25.250 --> 00:27:28.330it's hard to imagine something bad is going to happen.41300:27:28.470 --> 00:27:32.330It's almost like in the arms of a parent or something for a child.41400:27:32.570 --> 00:27:33.950It's got that feeling of safety.41500:27:34.110 --> 00:27:39.870And there's time here for Pippin to be the unquenchable hobbit and ask the41600:27:39.870 --> 00:27:45.890questions, which are again, the kind of questions we as readers have.41700:27:46.030 --> 00:27:49.830So if you've got questions, don't just sort of information dump.41800:27:50.090 --> 00:27:55.010Make sure they're part of a question and answer session, which is driven by the41900:27:55.010 --> 00:27:55.390plot.42000:27:55.830 --> 00:28:00.150It feels necessary to have this out here and now.42100:28:02.390 --> 00:28:06.150Though we do get a bit more because, of course, Tolkien is fond of his42200:28:06.150 --> 00:28:06.490lore.42300:28:08.210 --> 00:28:12.590It also is a place for Tolkien to get rid of some of the things42400:28:12.590 --> 00:28:13.670that have been bugging him.42500:28:13.890 --> 00:28:18.650We know that he had this rhyme going around in his head, which he didn't42600:28:18.650 --> 00:28:19.470know what it meant.42700:28:20.850 --> 00:28:25.630And here he gets a chance to give an explanation, tall ships and tall kings,42800:28:25.810 --> 00:28:29.790that little six line poem.42900:28:31.170 --> 00:28:38.430And as ever in Tolkien, it links back to the foundational story for Middle43000:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.810-earth or the men of Middle-earth, which is the fall of Númenor.43100:28:43.290 --> 00:28:45.250Hobbit curiosity drives this chapter.43200:28:45.850 --> 00:28:51.090And we get lots of things said here, which perhaps Pippin himself might not43300:28:51.090 --> 00:28:51.950know much about.43400:28:53.450 --> 00:28:57.430And a bit like a reader reading this for the first time, some of these43500:28:57.430 --> 00:28:58.770names we know nothing about.43600:28:58.870 --> 00:29:00.310The Noldor made them.43700:29:01.330 --> 00:29:03.070That's the High Elves.43800:29:04.090 --> 00:29:09.730So that explains why these Palantir are able to crack the steps, because they43900:29:09.730 --> 00:29:16.350are made by the Elves who were the masters, the master smiths from the depths44000:29:16.350 --> 00:29:16.870of time.44100:29:18.310 --> 00:29:24.470But even there, Gandalf says, but there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to44200:29:24.470 --> 00:29:29.970evil uses, which is one of the themes, isn't it, of Lord of the Rings.44300:29:30.930 --> 00:29:36.470And it gives Gandalf a chance to review the fall of Saruman.44400:29:37.810 --> 00:29:41.570He talks about how it was the fatal step.44500:29:42.470 --> 00:29:45.930And remember again, it's this image of someone keeping something for44600:29:45.930 --> 00:29:47.510themselves, that greedy child.44700:29:48.290 --> 00:29:49.790That was Saruman too.44800:29:49.870 --> 00:29:51.670He kept it from the White Council.44900:29:52.690 --> 00:30:01.110And it was the step which brought him to fall under the thrall, thralldom of45000:30:01.110 --> 00:30:02.410Sauron.45100:30:03.270 --> 00:30:08.950But Gandalf, though he is obviously merciful when he can be, he also doesn't45200:30:08.950 --> 00:30:10.090hold back.45300:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.430He says, yet he must bear the blame.45400:30:13.290 --> 00:30:16.250He can't claim to be the victim here.45500:30:16.550 --> 00:30:17.310He had a choice.45600:30:17.370 --> 00:30:19.890He took the choice, which I think is interesting.45700:30:20.050 --> 00:30:23.130And Gandalf is a tough love person.45800:30:24.130 --> 00:30:30.150He goes on to describe the functioning of the stones and how in Saruman's case,45900:30:30.310 --> 00:30:36.130the biters bit the hawk under the eagle's foot, the spider in the steel web.46000:30:36.770 --> 00:30:38.250So Saruman is trapped.46100:30:39.650 --> 00:30:45.970And we also get here, which I love, is a glimpse of Gandalf's mind, because46200:30:45.970 --> 00:30:49.190it gives him a chance to say what he would most like to see.46300:30:49.470 --> 00:30:52.850It reminded me a bit of the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter, where if46400:30:52.850 --> 00:30:54.530you look in it, you see what you most want to see.46500:30:54.930 --> 00:31:01.110A palantir, what you could see with it, what it could reveal is like that46600:31:01.110 --> 00:31:01.310too.46700:31:01.430 --> 00:31:05.930And it also, of course, reminds us in this world, this fictional world of46800:31:05.930 --> 00:31:07.050Galadriel's mirror as well.46900:31:08.130 --> 00:31:10.230But anyway, Gandalf says, what does he want to see?47000:31:10.230 --> 00:31:14.630He wants to look back to the land where he used to live over in47100:31:14.630 --> 00:31:15.630the Undying West.47200:31:16.430 --> 00:31:20.850And he wants to see the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor.47300:31:21.030 --> 00:31:24.810Now, Fëanor is the smith who made the Silmarils.47400:31:25.350 --> 00:31:27.630I think he's a bit evil.47500:31:28.250 --> 00:31:30.870But there's a Blakean power to him, isn't there?47600:31:31.010 --> 00:31:36.370Like a William Blake, the poet, in his famous poem, Tiger, Tiger, burning47700:31:36.370 --> 00:31:38.850bright in the forest of the night.47800:31:39.410 --> 00:31:43.650What immortal hand or eye dare frame thy fearful symmetry?47900:31:44.010 --> 00:31:45.730It's got that kind of power.48000:31:45.950 --> 00:31:49.070There's even some word similarity in that.48100:31:49.170 --> 00:31:55.310So it's a Blakean image of Fëanor who ruined things really for the Elves.48200:31:55.390 --> 00:31:57.010But anyway, that's the Silmarillion.48300:31:58.610 --> 00:32:03.670And going back to the tough love, Gandalf, Pippin begins to excuse himself.48400:32:06.690 --> 00:32:10.250Oh, you had this.48500:32:10.570 --> 00:32:16.170We need to take responsibility for the things we do wrong as adults, as grown48600:32:16.170 --> 00:32:16.430-ups.48700:32:16.830 --> 00:32:18.990There isn't a free pass, but there is mercy.48800:32:19.970 --> 00:32:25.470Even so, though, you can see that Pippin is unquenchable and he's also48900:32:25.470 --> 00:32:31.650fundamentally at ease and trusting Gandalf because there's a lovely joke here49000:32:31.650 --> 00:32:35.770where Gandalf says, oh, you know, surely that's enough questions for tonight.49100:32:36.710 --> 00:32:38.610And Gandalf says, what more do you want to know?49200:32:39.370 --> 00:32:43.490And Pippin says, the names of all the stars and of all living things and49300:32:43.490 --> 00:32:48.410the whole history of Middle-earth and over heaven and of the Sundering Seas,49400:32:49.150 --> 00:32:49.810laughed Pippin.49500:32:50.710 --> 00:32:52.070Of course, what less?49600:32:52.750 --> 00:32:54.750But I am not in a hurry tonight.49700:32:55.070 --> 00:32:57.470So he wants to know that, but not now, Gandalf.49800:32:57.890 --> 00:33:01.710So they have an ease, which is a lovely note to strike in this relationship,49900:33:01.890 --> 00:33:03.530which has been put through this test.50000:33:04.610 --> 00:33:09.670And Gandalf goes on to explain how Sauron is really in a cleft stick.50100:33:10.030 --> 00:33:15.870He will appear a rebel to Sauron because Sauron will assume Pippin or the50200:33:15.870 --> 00:33:22.050Hobbit is in the tower and Sauron is refusing to come and talk to him.50300:33:22.110 --> 00:33:25.570He can't imagine that the Palantir has been thrown out a window.50400:33:25.710 --> 00:33:29.130It's a bit like he can't imagine the ring will be cast into a fire.50500:33:29.230 --> 00:33:32.110It's the same thought here, but it's just in an earlier form of it.50600:33:33.150 --> 00:33:35.470Remember what I said at the beginning about tinkering?50700:33:35.630 --> 00:33:39.770There's one little note here, which is picked up in the Lord of the Rings,50800:33:40.390 --> 00:33:46.970a reader's companion, which is in the lineup, Saruman went and talked to50900:33:46.970 --> 00:33:47.570Théoden.51000:33:48.270 --> 00:33:49.950He mentioned Gimli.51100:33:50.370 --> 00:33:51.390He talked to Gandalf.51200:33:51.470 --> 00:33:53.390He didn't talk to Aragorn.51300:33:53.930 --> 00:33:59.690And I think Tolkien worried that he needed a reason why Saruman doesn't try and51400:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.070win over the future king of Gondor.51500:34:03.170 --> 00:34:06.790And so he gives this detail here, which is a tinkering detail to make the51600:34:06.790 --> 00:34:11.810plot work, that Aragorn was standing in the armor of Rohan.51700:34:12.969 --> 00:34:19.050So maybe Wormtongue didn't have a chance to tell him that Aragorn was there and51800:34:19.050 --> 00:34:20.570might tell him later.51900:34:21.449 --> 00:34:27.489But it makes sense that Saruman was unaware Aragorn was actually part of the52000:34:27.489 --> 00:34:33.030party standing in front of him, even if Wormtongue had mentioned that this52100:34:33.030 --> 00:34:36.210person had turned up at Edoras earlier.52200:34:36.389 --> 00:34:41.130So that nice tinkering moment, Tolkien's fixing his plot.52300:34:42.429 --> 00:34:46.290So just to wrap up, we're coming to the end of Book Three now.52400:34:46.830 --> 00:34:51.489The note that Gandalf strikes here is the one which keeps the tension going.52500:34:51.650 --> 00:34:56.490He says to Pippin, every stride on Shadowfax bears you nearer to the land of52600:34:56.490 --> 00:34:56.770shadow.52700:34:56.930 --> 00:34:58.430The momentum is going.52800:34:58.810 --> 00:35:00.630We're still getting nearer our goal.52900:35:01.830 --> 00:35:05.690But we're doing it going backwards over the path we've already gone past.53000:35:05.750 --> 00:35:11.030There's a quick nod to the caves that Gimli and Legolas have promised to visit,53100:35:11.190 --> 00:35:12.090that kind of thing.53200:35:12.770 --> 00:35:19.410In the unfinished tales, in the bit about the Palantir I mentioned, Tolkien53300:35:19.410 --> 00:35:22.330explains that Gandalf is actually worrying about Denethor here.53400:35:22.750 --> 00:35:24.750I looked carefully as I was reading it.53500:35:24.810 --> 00:35:29.650He does mention Denethor's name, but it's not something he tells Pippin.53600:35:29.750 --> 00:35:32.390So we don't know as a reader that he's worrying about Denethor.53700:35:32.650 --> 00:35:35.090He's worrying about what happened to these stones.53800:35:36.090 --> 00:35:39.750So it's a hidden message underneath what's going on here.53900:35:40.570 --> 00:35:46.590But Tolkien and that's going to be really the plot lead that will be the54000:35:46.590 --> 00:35:52.350Pippin, Gandalf, Denethor section when we get to Return of the King.54100:35:53.170 --> 00:35:56.410I just want to end on the last paragraph, which I always find a sort54200:35:56.410 --> 00:36:03.050of beautiful way of stilling the motion, like finding the place to call cut in54300:36:03.050 --> 00:36:08.110this book, which is this wonderful moment as Pippin falls asleep.54400:36:08.710 --> 00:36:12.550As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling.54500:36:13.150 --> 00:36:18.430He and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse,54600:36:18.950 --> 00:36:23.970while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.54700:36:25.250 --> 00:36:34.830So it's that moment of stillness, but actually still moving, which ends this54800:36:34.830 --> 00:36:39.690book in a minor key and we're ready to pick up in book four with54900:36:39.690 --> 00:36:41.090Frodo and Sam.55000:36:42.230 --> 00:36:44.410So that will be the next episode.55100:36:44.650 --> 00:36:45.790Thank you very much for listening.55200:36:51.210 --> 00:36:56.050Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford55300:36:56.050 --> 00:36:57.210Centre for Fantasy.55400:36:57.810 --> 00:37:01.770Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun.55500:37:02.450 --> 00:37:07.870Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our55600:37:07.870 --> 00:37:09.490shop for great gifts.55700:37:10.170 --> 00:37:14.410Tell a friend and subscribe, wherever you find your favourite podcasts55800:37:14.410 --> 00:37:15.210worldwide.