He's Much More Dangerous than He Looks - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 4 Ch 1

100:00:04.640 --> 00:00:07.320Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.200:00:07.540 --> 00:00:10.660Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans300:00:10.660 --> 00:00:13.260and fantasy creatives brought to you by the400:00:13.260 --> 00:00:14.740Oxford Centre for Fantasy.500:00:15.280 --> 00:00:16.820My name is Julia Golding.600:00:17.340 --> 00:00:20.160Now I am continuing a series where we700:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.280read our way through the Lord of the800:00:22.280 --> 00:00:23.860Rings chapter by chapter.900:00:24.520 --> 00:00:26.800And today it's an exciting new start because1000:00:26.800 --> 00:00:28.800we are halfway through the two hours.1100:00:29.260 --> 00:00:32.400We've reached book four and this is where1200:00:32.400 --> 00:00:35.120the story flips back to see what Frodo1300:00:35.120 --> 00:00:37.400and Sam have been up to whilst the1400:00:37.400 --> 00:00:39.780other members of the Fellowship have been in1500:00:39.780 --> 00:00:41.440mostly in Rohan.1600:00:42.180 --> 00:00:45.520And we are at chapter one, The Taming1700:00:45.520 --> 00:00:46.700of Smeagol.1800:00:47.760 --> 00:00:49.620And when we're doing this, we're looking at1900:00:49.620 --> 00:00:51.200what the author is doing.2000:00:51.620 --> 00:00:54.180So we're looking at the choices made by2100:00:54.180 --> 00:00:56.860Tolkien from a sort of literary point of2200:00:56.860 --> 00:01:00.420view as he's writing this long epic work.2300:01:01.020 --> 00:01:04.160So this chapter has three main sections.2400:01:04.720 --> 00:01:08.800It starts with catching up with Frodo and2500:01:08.800 --> 00:01:11.440Sam who are lost on the Emyn Muil.2600:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.920And then there's an episode where they're on2700:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.680the edge of a cliff and they're climbing2800:01:17.680 --> 00:01:18.240down.2900:01:18.720 --> 00:01:20.380This is where the elven rope comes in3000:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660useful.3100:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.220And then finally, it's when we meet one3200:01:23.220 --> 00:01:25.740of the most fascinating characters in all of3300:01:25.740 --> 00:01:26.240fantasy.3400:01:27.100 --> 00:01:28.700So, you know, hold on to your hats3500:01:28.700 --> 00:01:29.140for that.3600:01:29.960 --> 00:01:31.660That is, of course, Gollum.3700:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.200Though because the chapter is called The Taming3800:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.500of Smeagol, perhaps we should call him Smeagol.3900:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.040So let's have a look at what's going4000:01:40.040 --> 00:01:40.340on.4100:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.760This is one of the chapters that starts4200:01:42.760 --> 00:01:46.020with dialogue and it throws you straight in.4300:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.640So it starts with Sam saying, well, master,4400:01:49.980 --> 00:01:51.920we're in a fixer, no mistake.4500:01:52.420 --> 00:01:55.940So we're immediately right in the middle of4600:01:55.940 --> 00:01:59.600the problem that they're facing, which is they4700:01:59.600 --> 00:02:03.000can't get to where they need to go.4800:02:03.080 --> 00:02:04.540They can see it, but they can't get4900:02:04.540 --> 00:02:04.860there.5000:02:05.620 --> 00:02:07.539One of the things that strikes me about5100:02:07.539 --> 00:02:12.720this chapter, after the colourful scenes in Rohan,5200:02:12.720 --> 00:02:17.180the battles, the Ents, the Palantir, the dramatic5300:02:17.180 --> 00:02:21.920showdown with Saruman, this chapter is all about5400:02:21.920 --> 00:02:24.020frustration and confusion.5500:02:24.640 --> 00:02:28.680It's unlikely, I think, to be many people's5600:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.380favourite chapter, unless they like it because of5700:02:31.380 --> 00:02:36.700the introduction of Smeagol slash Gollum, because it5800:02:36.700 --> 00:02:40.920is frustrating and a bit confusing to read5900:02:40.920 --> 00:02:45.000because, well, they are in a huge rocky6000:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.880landscape and they are lost.6100:02:47.140 --> 00:02:48.840And in a way, with the repetition of6200:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.520the words for the small scale stone formations,6300:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.280the gullies, the cracks, the fissures, it is6400:02:56.280 --> 00:03:00.400quite difficult to get a grasp of what6500:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.420they're surrounded by.6600:03:01.420 --> 00:03:05.560Unlike other places, which Tolkien describes in full,6700:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.000the description here seems to just pile on6800:03:08.000 --> 00:03:08.900the confusion.6900:03:09.760 --> 00:03:11.900And that, I think, is intentional.7000:03:12.900 --> 00:03:16.260But we do get the overwhelming mood of7100:03:16.260 --> 00:03:17.860this whole chapter.7200:03:18.000 --> 00:03:20.580There's a couple of areas of fun and7300:03:20.580 --> 00:03:24.500hilarity and lightness, but mainly it's this sense7400:03:24.500 --> 00:03:28.540of ominous, foreboding.7500:03:29.020 --> 00:03:30.300That's what's going on here.7600:03:31.440 --> 00:03:33.940And this particular sentence near the beginning sort7700:03:33.940 --> 00:03:35.260of sums it up for me.7800:03:35.780 --> 00:03:39.160Night was gathering over the shapeless lands before7900:03:39.160 --> 00:03:39.500them.8000:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.020Note they're shapeless, you can't grasp them.8100:03:42.980 --> 00:03:45.800The sickly green of them was fading to8200:03:45.800 --> 00:03:46.860a sullen brown.8300:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.380So the palette of this is greys, greens,8400:03:50.580 --> 00:03:53.920browns, and at night, obviously, black.8500:03:54.340 --> 00:03:57.760So it's unpleasant, it's cold, it's damp, it's8600:03:57.760 --> 00:03:58.260miserable.8700:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.240And in a sense, as so often with8800:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.640Tolkien, the landscape is a reflection of the8900:04:06.640 --> 00:04:08.560state of that part of their quest.9000:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.920The landscape is this, what they call the9100:04:13.920 --> 00:04:17.500pathetic fallacy, where something external seems to reflect9200:04:17.500 --> 00:04:18.500something internal.9300:04:19.220 --> 00:04:21.100Though, of course, in this case, the landscape9400:04:21.100 --> 00:04:24.560is also producing that feeling of confusion and9500:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.280being lost.9600:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.680Looking at what they're talking about, we get9700:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.120the repetition of the word fix, that you're9800:04:33.120 --> 00:04:33.680in a fix.9900:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.960That's quite a colloquial word for a dilemma10000:04:35.960 --> 00:04:38.140or a puzzle.10100:04:39.260 --> 00:04:41.520But Sammy's very good at summing it up10200:04:41.520 --> 00:04:45.440in good commoner garden phrasing.10300:04:46.080 --> 00:04:47.620So he's saying, we're in a fix, we10400:04:47.620 --> 00:04:48.780can't get to Mordor.10500:04:48.860 --> 00:04:50.780That's the one place in all the lands10600:04:50.780 --> 00:04:53.100we've ever heard of that we don't want10700:04:53.100 --> 00:04:54.440to see any closer.10800:04:55.480 --> 00:04:57.820And that's the one place we're trying to10900:04:57.820 --> 00:04:58.280get to.11000:04:58.940 --> 00:05:00.860So the dialogue here is doing a useful11100:05:00.860 --> 00:05:04.540task of just reminding us of what's at11200:05:04.540 --> 00:05:07.560stake for these two, what their motivation is.11300:05:08.960 --> 00:05:11.400And I think it's interesting because we're now11400:05:11.400 --> 00:05:14.500in a scenario which we haven't had since,11500:05:15.380 --> 00:05:19.180well, some very early conversations with Frodo and11600:05:19.180 --> 00:05:19.500Sam.11700:05:19.600 --> 00:05:21.640They've always had other people around them on11800:05:21.640 --> 00:05:22.080the whole.11900:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.020It's been a few moments when they're on12000:05:24.020 --> 00:05:27.100their own, particularly at the end of Fellowship.12100:05:27.540 --> 00:05:30.120But here, they're going to be a long12200:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.260stretch when it's the two of them relying12300:05:32.260 --> 00:05:32.940on each other.12400:05:33.500 --> 00:05:36.100And we get this balance between the two.12500:05:36.280 --> 00:05:38.560We've got Sam sort of stepping forward and12600:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.220becoming more voluble, more of a character in12700:05:42.220 --> 00:05:42.840some sense.12800:05:42.940 --> 00:05:44.320He holds more of the page.12900:05:44.960 --> 00:05:47.380But we've also got an element of quietness,13000:05:47.540 --> 00:05:51.880firmness and withholding to Frodo, which begins at13100:05:51.880 --> 00:05:52.580this point.13200:05:53.100 --> 00:05:54.920In a way, he begins to slip away13300:05:54.920 --> 00:05:55.520from us.13400:05:56.360 --> 00:05:58.080And as we get further and further into13500:05:58.080 --> 00:06:00.440the story, as the ring gets a bigger13600:06:00.440 --> 00:06:03.220hold on him, there is a sort of13700:06:03.220 --> 00:06:04.520erosion of Frodo.13800:06:05.160 --> 00:06:07.540And this is some of the places where13900:06:07.540 --> 00:06:09.580it just begins to creep in.14000:06:09.680 --> 00:06:11.900It's a very slow, it's a dimmer switch14100:06:11.900 --> 00:06:13.520effect.14200:06:13.640 --> 00:06:14.740It's not a sudden break.14300:06:16.260 --> 00:06:17.880And also, I thought it was quite funny14400:06:17.880 --> 00:06:22.080that we get Sam channeling Macbeth.14500:06:23.600 --> 00:06:29.500Because in answer to Frodo's sort of half14600:06:29.500 --> 00:06:32.200upbeat thing saying, well, perhaps another day will14700:06:32.200 --> 00:06:33.020show us a path.14800:06:33.700 --> 00:06:37.120We got Sam saying, or another, and another,14900:06:37.380 --> 00:06:38.060and another.15000:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.640And that is the most famous three-part15100:06:42.640 --> 00:06:46.140thing of that kind, is a similar thought.15200:06:46.280 --> 00:06:48.940It's Macbeth's tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.15300:06:49.600 --> 00:06:53.340I think it's, well, maybe it's, I think15400:06:53.340 --> 00:06:55.080it's slightly accidental, but it made me laugh15500:06:55.080 --> 00:06:58.220to think that there's an echo of Macbeth15600:06:58.220 --> 00:06:59.240in Sam.15700:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.360And we do know, Macbeth was in Tolkien's15800:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.080thoughts, particularly in the chapters on the Ents15900:07:05.080 --> 00:07:07.200going to Isengard.16000:07:07.340 --> 00:07:09.600So it's not a totally wild association.16100:07:11.000 --> 00:07:14.120But compared to Sam, who is in a16200:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.200way still fretting and struggling against his fate,16300:07:19.740 --> 00:07:23.640Frodo is notably quieter and accepting.16400:07:24.440 --> 00:07:27.940Because his answer is, it's my doom, I16500:07:27.940 --> 00:07:31.460think, to go to that shadow yonder, so16600:07:31.460 --> 00:07:33.500that a way will be found.16700:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.780But will good or evil show it to16800:07:36.780 --> 00:07:37.020me?16900:07:38.280 --> 00:07:40.580It is in a way, I think, that17000:07:40.580 --> 00:07:42.640in itself is almost like a summary of17100:07:42.640 --> 00:07:46.140Frodo's dilemma all during this book.17200:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.980And we've got doom here meant as your17300:07:50.980 --> 00:07:55.280fate, not as something which is inevitably a17400:07:55.280 --> 00:07:57.740bad thing, not a doom in that sense.17500:07:58.180 --> 00:07:59.920But it's the idea of fate.17600:08:01.900 --> 00:08:04.040And that idea is, will good or evil17700:08:04.040 --> 00:08:07.840show it to me, is echoed throughout the17800:08:07.840 --> 00:08:08.100story.17900:08:08.180 --> 00:08:09.200We're going to hear it again.18000:08:09.520 --> 00:08:11.700But it's the idea that even the wise18100:08:11.700 --> 00:08:15.000cannot see what part might be played by18200:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.500characters who seem evil.18300:08:16.700 --> 00:08:19.620Sometimes they are part of the solution that18400:08:19.620 --> 00:08:21.020actually produces the good.18500:08:23.200 --> 00:08:25.380Other echoes, this is actually a very echoey18600:08:25.380 --> 00:08:25.900chapter.18700:08:26.740 --> 00:08:29.500Because there is an echo here of Aragorn18800:08:29.500 --> 00:08:30.740in what Frodo says.18900:08:32.400 --> 00:08:37.860This is happening contemporaneously to Aragorn regretting his19000:08:37.860 --> 00:08:41.980choices when the Fellowship is broken, because we've19100:08:41.980 --> 00:08:44.580gone back to more or less that point19200:08:44.580 --> 00:08:47.000three days in after that moment.19300:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.240And Frodo says, all my choices have proved19400:08:51.240 --> 00:08:54.500ill, which is very much what Aragorn was19500:08:54.500 --> 00:08:59.880saying when they find Boromir dead and both19600:08:59.880 --> 00:09:03.860of the hobbits taken, Merry and Pippin taken.19700:09:05.020 --> 00:09:07.640But there's also this irony at play here,19800:09:07.660 --> 00:09:10.720because we've seen that Aragorn's choices have in19900:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.820fact ended up with the overthrow of Saruman20000:09:13.820 --> 00:09:16.640in a roundabout way.20100:09:17.140 --> 00:09:21.600I think Gandalf describes the hobbits like pebbles20200:09:21.600 --> 00:09:22.940starting an avalanche.20300:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.260So we may be thinking as readers, hoping20400:09:27.260 --> 00:09:30.380for a happy ending of some sort, that20500:09:30.380 --> 00:09:35.900it is the choices that seem ill might20600:09:35.900 --> 00:09:37.080actually produce the good.20700:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.720And of course, what this chapter is really20800:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.620about, and in some ways, it is as20900:09:44.620 --> 00:09:48.020important as the chapter when Frodo chooses to21000:09:48.020 --> 00:09:50.880take the ring coming out of the Council21100:09:50.880 --> 00:09:51.440of Elrond.21200:09:51.900 --> 00:09:54.480It's his decision he takes about Gollum's fate21300:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.860that actually decides the fate of the nation,21400:09:57.040 --> 00:09:57.840the fate of the world.21500:09:59.040 --> 00:10:01.160So what is the conversation doing here?21600:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.460The interesting thing about these Frodo and Sam21700:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.780chapters like this is that there is less21800:10:08.780 --> 00:10:12.200description on the whole, and more conversation taking21900:10:12.200 --> 00:10:16.140the role of a sort of narratorial intervention.22000:10:16.640 --> 00:10:21.300Because the conversation reiterates the stakes, recaps the22100:10:21.300 --> 00:10:25.460situation, we catch up on the state of22200:10:25.460 --> 00:10:26.540mind of the characters.22300:10:26.820 --> 00:10:30.040We also are reminded of the contrast in22400:10:30.040 --> 00:10:33.840this world, referring to the sort of homeliness22500:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.020of the way they behave with each other.22600:10:37.060 --> 00:10:38.780Sam is comparing Lembas.22700:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.940He'd like some beer.22800:10:43.080 --> 00:10:44.220He wants to go down the pub rather22900:10:44.220 --> 00:10:45.340than be stuck in this place.23000:10:45.980 --> 00:10:47.620I imagine that's a conversation that would have23100:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.940been had in the trenches.23200:10:49.580 --> 00:10:51.820No matter what came in the rations, they23300:10:51.820 --> 00:10:52.960all prefer to be back home.23400:10:54.420 --> 00:10:57.520And there's a clear sense they are two23500:10:57.520 --> 00:11:01.460little hobbits carrying the Shire into the opposite23600:11:01.460 --> 00:11:02.840of the Shire landscape.23700:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.460So all of that is done in the23800:11:05.460 --> 00:11:05.960dialogue.23900:11:07.420 --> 00:11:10.740Moving on, there is a remarkable number of24000:11:10.740 --> 00:11:13.780words in this chapter to do with this24100:11:13.780 --> 00:11:15.280broken stony landscape.24200:11:15.480 --> 00:11:17.300We've got gullies, we've got stones, we've got24300:11:17.300 --> 00:11:20.140cliffs, we've got fissures, we've got rocks, we've24400:11:20.140 --> 00:11:24.180got stunted trees.24500:11:24.280 --> 00:11:25.000It's all there.24600:11:26.060 --> 00:11:29.940And it is a landscape which is the24700:11:29.940 --> 00:11:32.600most hostile that you can imagine to a24800:11:32.600 --> 00:11:33.960sort of barefoot hobbit.24900:11:36.010 --> 00:11:39.190They are stuck and they come to the25000:11:39.190 --> 00:11:41.790conclusion that the only way forward is to25100:11:41.790 --> 00:11:43.570risk climbing down a cliff.25200:11:44.190 --> 00:11:46.990And here it gives a chance for the25300:11:46.990 --> 00:11:49.970hobbits contrasting characters to be shown.25400:11:50.110 --> 00:11:51.930And that's one of the roles of action,25500:11:52.030 --> 00:11:54.310these smaller pieces of action, which aren't the25600:11:54.310 --> 00:11:55.190set piece battles.25700:11:55.710 --> 00:11:59.550What someone does when facing an obstacle reveals25800:11:59.550 --> 00:12:00.610who they are really.25900:12:01.190 --> 00:12:06.840And you've got Sam's foolish bravery set against26000:12:06.840 --> 00:12:07.240Frodo.26100:12:07.300 --> 00:12:09.300He's also courageous, but he is more deliberate.26200:12:09.640 --> 00:12:10.620He has the skills.26300:12:11.020 --> 00:12:11.860He's very competent.26400:12:12.260 --> 00:12:13.960He's shown as competent in this chapter.26500:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.800And also, he wants to actually take some26600:12:17.800 --> 00:12:19.800time to think about things, whereas Sam will26700:12:19.800 --> 00:12:20.740say, I'll go first.26800:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.420And this discussion about how they're going to26900:12:25.420 --> 00:12:30.060go about it with Frodo making free climbing27000:12:30.060 --> 00:12:33.620his way down this cliff is suddenly cut27100:12:33.620 --> 00:12:33.940short.27200:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.380And that's the word that's given, cut short.27300:12:36.680 --> 00:12:38.780And then there's a dramatic line break.27400:12:39.320 --> 00:12:41.560We've looked at the role of line breaks27500:12:41.560 --> 00:12:44.200earlier in Two Towers.27600:12:44.280 --> 00:12:45.560And this is one of the ones which27700:12:45.560 --> 00:12:48.900really does punctuate it because we've got the27800:12:48.900 --> 00:12:51.880drama of the line break as a sudden27900:12:51.880 --> 00:12:54.400onset of both a sort of lightning storm28000:12:54.400 --> 00:12:57.880and an overflight high up of a black28100:12:57.880 --> 00:12:59.340rider on a Nazgul.28200:13:00.040 --> 00:13:02.480And this causes Frodo to lose his grip28300:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.400and to fall a short distance.28400:13:06.360 --> 00:13:08.300If you look at how this is written,28500:13:10.140 --> 00:13:12.120Tolkien goes on to write the next bit28600:13:12.120 --> 00:13:16.580where they are recovering from that fight as28700:13:16.580 --> 00:13:20.280quickly tossing between the points of view of28800:13:20.280 --> 00:13:21.480both Sam and Frodo.28900:13:21.900 --> 00:13:24.200Now, one of the early pieces of editorial29000:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.440feedback I got right at the beginning of29100:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.620my career from an American editor is don't29200:13:28.620 --> 00:13:29.300jump heads.29300:13:30.480 --> 00:13:31.580Tolkien does jump heads.29400:13:31.820 --> 00:13:33.260It's possibly where I picked it up from.29500:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.300But here he's not doing it without thinking29600:13:37.300 --> 00:13:38.080about it.29700:13:38.520 --> 00:13:41.440He is doing it because he's showing how29800:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.480this appears to Frodo and how this appears29900:13:44.480 --> 00:13:45.500to Sam.30000:13:45.660 --> 00:13:48.300And it's very important that juxtaposition because one30100:13:48.300 --> 00:13:50.460is stuck on a ledge, the other is30200:13:50.460 --> 00:13:50.860above.30300:13:51.160 --> 00:13:54.680So it's this dizzying sort of journey that30400:13:54.680 --> 00:13:56.640reader is taken between the two.30500:13:58.540 --> 00:14:02.380And of course, Frodo has gone blind temporarily.30600:14:02.380 --> 00:14:08.140And it's into this that Sam, who is30700:14:08.140 --> 00:14:10.120sometimes a bit slow on the uptake, remembers30800:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.020his carrying rope.30900:14:12.400 --> 00:14:16.320And there is nobody harsher than Sam on31000:14:16.320 --> 00:14:16.840himself.31100:14:17.040 --> 00:14:20.060He calls himself a numbskull, a ninnyhammer, colloquial31200:14:20.060 --> 00:14:21.180words for being dumb.31300:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.800And it's hard to remember what it was31400:14:25.800 --> 00:14:27.640like to first read this.31500:14:27.900 --> 00:14:31.580But because the archetypal things that they take31600:14:31.580 --> 00:14:35.860with them, the star glass, the cloaks, the31700:14:35.860 --> 00:14:37.560lembas and so on, there is not that31800:14:37.560 --> 00:14:39.720many items for a reader to remember.31900:14:40.620 --> 00:14:43.720And the lack of rope and Sam picking32000:14:43.720 --> 00:14:47.880up some rope as they left Lothlorien was32100:14:47.880 --> 00:14:50.200highlighted, that many a reader would have been32200:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.780shouting at the book already, Sam, you idiot,32300:14:53.040 --> 00:14:54.100it's in your pack.32400:14:54.800 --> 00:15:00.340So anyway, Arty brings this wonderful artifact, which32500:15:00.340 --> 00:15:02.520is the first, in fact, in this part32600:15:02.520 --> 00:15:06.660of the two towers, because there are these32700:15:06.660 --> 00:15:10.480key things that they're holding, be it the32800:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.740cloak, be it the bread, be it the32900:15:12.740 --> 00:15:14.960star glass, be it sting and so on,33000:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.140that sort of have their moment.33100:15:16.700 --> 00:15:18.780And this rope is the first of these33200:15:18.780 --> 00:15:21.720given an extended role in this chapter.33300:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.640And it becomes almost like a little character.33400:15:25.420 --> 00:15:27.280And it comes down with a faint silver33500:15:27.280 --> 00:15:29.400sheen, so that it lightens.33600:15:29.420 --> 00:15:32.320The first things it does is it lightens33700:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.340Frodo's vision, which had gone temporarily blind.33800:15:37.460 --> 00:15:40.940I think it's an interesting way to, when33900:15:40.940 --> 00:15:42.320you've got a world that has a sort34000:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.120of sense of a magical charge, and this34100:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.040rope has an element of magic about it.34200:15:47.660 --> 00:15:49.440If you imbue it with a sense of34300:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.140its own identity and personality, people often do34400:15:52.140 --> 00:15:55.480this with swords, of course, or weapons, it34500:15:55.480 --> 00:15:56.740gives it more charge.34600:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.000And it connects to the character, of course,34700:15:59.560 --> 00:16:01.800who gave it to the hobbits in the34800:16:01.800 --> 00:16:05.580first place, possibly Haldir, but certainly the elves.34900:16:07.020 --> 00:16:10.420Another connection here is the one about the35000:16:10.420 --> 00:16:15.700storm, because the it's described, the storm goes35100:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.640out beyond having passed over them, it goes35200:16:18.640 --> 00:16:20.920out to Gondor and Rohan, sweeps around like35300:16:20.920 --> 00:16:21.320that.35400:16:21.740 --> 00:16:25.280And it's connecting the other parts of the35500:16:25.280 --> 00:16:26.440story through the weather.35600:16:27.660 --> 00:16:32.400Those names are checked, we know that the35700:16:32.400 --> 00:16:35.220destination of the rest of the fellowship is35800:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.980Gondor, and currently in Rohan, so it connects35900:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.260the stories in that way, just subtly ringing36000:16:42.260 --> 00:16:43.240that particular bell.36100:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.100And as it moves on, hope returns.36200:16:46.400 --> 00:16:48.960We've got a nice sort of description of36300:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.080the sky that underlines that.36400:16:51.580 --> 00:16:54.060The deep blue sky of evening opened once36500:16:54.060 --> 00:16:57.200more, and a few pallid stars appeared, like36600:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.400small white holes in the canopy above the36700:16:59.400 --> 00:17:00.000crescent moon.36800:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.859This ever-presence of the stars is another36900:17:05.859 --> 00:17:09.720very important theme which keeps being reiterated.37000:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.900Of course, we're moving towards the most important37100:17:11.900 --> 00:17:13.880of these, which comes later in The Return37200:17:13.880 --> 00:17:14.380of the King.37300:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.619But let's note it here as being a37400:17:17.619 --> 00:17:20.819sign of, yes, like the faint silvery light,37500:17:22.060 --> 00:17:24.900there is a sense of beauty which the37600:17:24.900 --> 00:17:28.080elven world represents in Middle-earth.37700:17:29.040 --> 00:17:33.020If you're wondering about Elves, it's about 4537800:17:33.020 --> 00:17:33.720inches.37900:17:34.740 --> 00:17:39.220It was based on 45 inches is sort38000:17:39.220 --> 00:17:40.520of like if you could pay out a38100:17:40.520 --> 00:17:43.560rope, like stretch it out, fold it over,38200:17:43.660 --> 00:17:45.640stretch it out, that was 45 inches was38300:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.360like a man's sort of natural width.38400:17:50.500 --> 00:17:54.100It might even be sort of from the38500:17:54.100 --> 00:17:55.560top of the hand to the elbow.38600:17:55.700 --> 00:17:57.140I was told that once, if you wrap38700:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.800it around that, that's a sort of 4538800:18:00.800 --> 00:18:04.160inches, in the same way as a man's38900:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.420foot was often 12 inches, like the measurement39000:18:08.420 --> 00:18:09.420of the foot.39100:18:10.100 --> 00:18:11.860I haven't worked out what it is in39200:18:11.860 --> 00:18:13.960centimetres, but we don't want to put centimetres39300:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.540into Middle-earth, do we?39400:18:15.580 --> 00:18:17.180It's not the right measurement.39500:18:19.460 --> 00:18:21.320And we follow on with much more conversation39600:18:21.320 --> 00:18:25.300between the two of them, and with Sam's39700:18:25.300 --> 00:18:27.780colloquialisms coming through.39800:18:28.760 --> 00:18:30.860And do note here, he's very assertive, he's39900:18:30.860 --> 00:18:32.020not at all obsequious.40000:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.160And I think there's very often a misunderstanding40100:18:37.060 --> 00:18:40.000of modern readers of what a master-servant40200:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.180relationship was like.40300:18:42.520 --> 00:18:47.900Certainly for Tolkien's generation, it wasn't regarded as40400:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.100being a lesser role to be someone's servant.40500:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.980And of course, in a Christian context, which40600:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.460is Tolkien's background, being a servant is to40700:18:55.460 --> 00:18:58.400be like Jesus, so clearly dignified.40800:18:59.860 --> 00:19:03.660But if you think of other literary examples40900:19:03.660 --> 00:19:06.060of master and servant, the Jeeves and the41000:19:06.060 --> 00:19:09.820Worcester in the comic vein, being someone's servant41100:19:09.820 --> 00:19:11.900doesn't mean that you're obsequious.41200:19:12.940 --> 00:19:17.780In fact, obsequious servants are usually given very41300:19:17.780 --> 00:19:19.720poor press in literature at the time.41400:19:19.820 --> 00:19:24.280You think of Uriah Heep in David Copperfield,41500:19:24.580 --> 00:19:25.060for example.41600:19:26.180 --> 00:19:27.760And I'm sure this is what Tolkien felt41700:19:27.760 --> 00:19:30.720about his relationship with the people who were41800:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.980his batman or his valet in the trenches.41900:19:33.820 --> 00:19:38.020It was a partnership coming from different social42000:19:38.020 --> 00:19:38.560strata.42100:19:38.920 --> 00:19:40.660But we will see, of course, that Sam42200:19:40.660 --> 00:19:44.420rises up the society of Middle-earth in42300:19:44.420 --> 00:19:47.920terms of his social standing through his role42400:19:47.920 --> 00:19:48.240here.42500:19:49.300 --> 00:19:51.680And the other thing that the conversation does42600:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.580here is it does the scene setting very42700:19:53.580 --> 00:19:55.420much like dialogue in a play.42800:19:57.190 --> 00:19:59.630They say what you need to know about42900:19:59.630 --> 00:20:02.090the state of the moon and so on.43000:20:02.150 --> 00:20:03.150They're telling you this.43100:20:04.250 --> 00:20:06.610And we also get here, I mentioned there's43200:20:06.610 --> 00:20:08.070a few moments of comedy.43300:20:08.870 --> 00:20:12.470The rope provides one of the main ones,43400:20:12.470 --> 00:20:15.310which is once they're both safely down this43500:20:15.310 --> 00:20:19.770cliff that they've got down, that they've descended,43600:20:20.910 --> 00:20:23.350Sam regretfully gives a tug on the rope43700:20:23.350 --> 00:20:25.330and it comes away.43800:20:26.070 --> 00:20:28.410Sam fell over and the long grey coil43900:20:28.410 --> 00:20:30.650slithered silently down on top of him.44000:20:32.170 --> 00:20:33.330It's very visual.44100:20:33.450 --> 00:20:35.210You can see it sort of just spiraling44200:20:35.210 --> 00:20:35.670down.44300:20:36.590 --> 00:20:38.150It has a personality, this rope.44400:20:38.730 --> 00:20:42.050And this encourages Sam to make a connection44500:20:42.050 --> 00:20:45.530between where they are now and his thoughts44600:20:45.530 --> 00:20:45.870of home.44700:20:46.030 --> 00:20:48.690Sam very often refers back to the shire.44800:20:49.150 --> 00:20:51.530It's the touchstone for him, of course, as44900:20:51.530 --> 00:20:52.470it is for Frodo.45000:20:52.670 --> 00:20:56.050But Sam's references come from there mainly.45100:20:56.790 --> 00:20:59.310And he talks about his Uncle Andy, who45200:20:59.310 --> 00:21:01.010had a rope walk at Tyfield.45300:21:01.770 --> 00:21:07.550Now, rope walk isn't something for acrobats, not45400:21:07.550 --> 00:21:08.370that kind of rope walk.45500:21:08.790 --> 00:21:11.650A rope walk was the name for a45600:21:11.650 --> 00:21:14.990rope making factory because in order to make45700:21:14.990 --> 00:21:17.690ropes for the Navy and others, you would45800:21:17.690 --> 00:21:21.790have these long lengths being twisted between various45900:21:21.790 --> 00:21:23.250points and you'd walk along them.46000:21:23.530 --> 00:21:25.750Of course, it's a long, long, you need46100:21:25.750 --> 00:21:26.290long ropes.46200:21:27.750 --> 00:21:31.610Tyfield, obviously, Ty as a Tolkien's having fun46300:21:31.610 --> 00:21:35.550with the idea of tying things in this46400:21:35.550 --> 00:21:35.910field.46500:21:36.110 --> 00:21:39.550So, there he is, threading it into his46600:21:39.550 --> 00:21:40.950narrative in the names.46700:21:42.650 --> 00:21:45.890And I'm with Sam because Frodo's not worried46800:21:45.890 --> 00:21:47.790too much about why the rope comes down.46900:21:47.930 --> 00:21:50.550But Sam really doesn't want either his rope47000:21:50.550 --> 00:21:54.610skills, i.e. his not tying, or the47100:21:54.610 --> 00:21:57.090elves, or the rope to be offended.47200:21:57.850 --> 00:21:59.570He says, I think the rope came off47300:21:59.570 --> 00:22:01.070itself when I called.47400:22:01.790 --> 00:22:04.350So, that finishes that idea of the rope47500:22:04.350 --> 00:22:05.470being like a little character.47600:22:08.040 --> 00:22:09.420You would think that this would be the47700:22:09.420 --> 00:22:13.300moment when they would have got through this47800:22:13.300 --> 00:22:13.800obstacle.47900:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.620And right, they're on their way.48000:22:17.060 --> 00:22:18.300They're going to reach the marshes.48100:22:18.380 --> 00:22:21.180But no, I'd forgotten this until I was48200:22:21.180 --> 00:22:21.900reading it carefully.48300:22:21.940 --> 00:22:24.200Because this isn't a chapter I often go48400:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.560back to because of the confusion at the48500:22:27.560 --> 00:22:28.000beginning.48600:22:29.120 --> 00:22:33.700They're immediately turned back by arriving at another48700:22:33.700 --> 00:22:35.580fissure, another gully.48800:22:36.520 --> 00:22:38.720And this is a frustration of the chapter.48900:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.660It doesn't proceed forwards, or at least not49000:22:41.660 --> 00:22:41.960yet.49100:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.360And they have to more or less go49200:22:44.360 --> 00:22:46.280back to the point where they climbed down.49300:22:47.020 --> 00:22:49.840But this is one of those backward movements49400:22:49.840 --> 00:22:53.560that proves an advance because it's there that49500:22:53.560 --> 00:22:56.580they see Gollum approaching.49600:22:58.020 --> 00:23:02.080There's a strange little exclamation from Sam here49700:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.480when he's reacting to the sort of, you49800:23:06.480 --> 00:23:07.840know, having to go back.49900:23:08.380 --> 00:23:10.360And that's snakes and adders.50000:23:11.560 --> 00:23:13.180When I look, I think I've probably often50100:23:13.180 --> 00:23:16.260read that in my skimming past as snakes50200:23:16.260 --> 00:23:18.600and ladders, because that fits the idea that,50300:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.800you know, you might climb up a ladder,50400:23:20.940 --> 00:23:23.580but you would come slipping back down on50500:23:23.580 --> 00:23:24.160a snake.50600:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.140It would fit with their scenario.50700:23:26.540 --> 00:23:29.280But perhaps Tolkien felt that mentioning that game50800:23:29.280 --> 00:23:30.820was too present day.50900:23:31.100 --> 00:23:33.600So snakes and adders, adders of course being51000:23:33.600 --> 00:23:37.160a kind of snake, it kind of produces51100:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.660a connection to the game without being, taking51200:23:41.660 --> 00:23:43.900us out of the frame of this archaic51300:23:43.900 --> 00:23:44.900world he's describing.51400:23:46.840 --> 00:23:50.380Okay, so now we're on to the last51500:23:50.380 --> 00:23:53.300section, which is the arrival of Gollum.51600:23:53.380 --> 00:23:54.720And this is where we get the first51700:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.760full glimpse of Gollum.51800:23:55.840 --> 00:23:58.220We've seen him in the dark, we've seen51900:23:58.220 --> 00:23:59.780him in the river, but we haven't seen52000:23:59.780 --> 00:24:02.520him close to in detail.52100:24:03.800 --> 00:24:07.100The companion to Lord of the Rings, which52200:24:07.100 --> 00:24:10.460I've been to help me as I've been52300:24:10.460 --> 00:24:13.900doing this read through, the one by Hammond52400:24:13.900 --> 00:24:18.060and Scull, has a fascinating little section on52500:24:18.060 --> 00:24:20.320this about how Tolkien was upset by the52600:24:20.320 --> 00:24:23.920illustrations that kept coming back for the foreign52700:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.640language editions of Lord of the Rings, in52800:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.080part because people were taking his comparison of52900:24:30.080 --> 00:24:34.080Gollum to insects like spiders or frogs, very53000:24:34.080 --> 00:24:34.560literally.53100:24:35.340 --> 00:24:40.000When he's clear that they're like this, they53200:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.540aren't a frog or a spider.53300:24:44.820 --> 00:24:48.140And the description obviously is more of an53400:24:48.140 --> 00:24:53.040emaciated, ravaged, twisted, hobbit-like creature, because he53500:24:53.040 --> 00:24:56.180seems to be roughly the same height as53600:24:56.180 --> 00:24:57.160the hobbits themselves.53700:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.780Anyway, Frodo is the one who really gets53800:25:00.780 --> 00:25:04.900Gollum, because he says right from the start,53900:25:05.080 --> 00:25:07.800he's much more dangerous than he looks.54000:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.340So indeed, that is Gollum, isn't it?54100:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.720Now, I think that looking at it from54200:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.660a writer's point of view, the most remarkable54300:25:16.660 --> 00:25:20.020thing Tolkien has done with this character, and54400:25:20.020 --> 00:25:21.360it's quite innovative.54500:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.120There were some characters who were sort of54600:25:25.120 --> 00:25:27.400divided against themselves in fantasy.54700:25:28.320 --> 00:25:31.660I'm thinking back to some early 19th century54800:25:31.660 --> 00:25:32.220novels.54900:25:33.240 --> 00:25:37.140You've got James Hogg's Confessions of a Justified55000:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.820Sinner, which I think is from 1824.55100:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.720And of course, later, something that Tolkien definitely55200:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.300would have known is the Dr. Jekyll and55300:25:48.300 --> 00:25:49.920Mr. Hyde story.55400:25:51.060 --> 00:25:54.120But what Tolkien does here, which is fascinating,55500:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360is that he combines those in two.55600:25:58.620 --> 00:26:02.280Both of those characters of the split inside55700:26:02.280 --> 00:26:05.200the personality of Gollum's Sméagol are present at55800:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.200the same time talking to each other.55900:26:07.820 --> 00:26:12.060And he does this primarily or almost entirely56000:26:12.060 --> 00:26:13.700through dialogue.56100:26:15.380 --> 00:26:17.400It's technically a monologue, isn't it?56200:26:17.460 --> 00:26:18.620But basically, it's a dialogue.56300:26:19.060 --> 00:26:21.440Anyone who's seen the films of the Andy56400:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.140Serkis performance will know exactly what I'm talking56500:26:24.140 --> 00:26:24.520about.56600:26:25.060 --> 00:26:27.540He flicks on a dime, but yet it's56700:26:27.540 --> 00:26:28.440all in the Tolkien.56800:26:28.600 --> 00:26:32.420It's not a clever actor interpreting the text,56900:26:32.960 --> 00:26:34.140though it's that too.57000:26:34.320 --> 00:26:36.720It's actually led by the author in this57100:26:36.720 --> 00:26:37.000case.57200:26:37.060 --> 00:26:39.320And it's a real masterclass in how to57300:26:39.320 --> 00:26:42.820characterize somebody in the way that they speak.57400:26:43.900 --> 00:26:46.380We are also given some physical clues as57500:26:46.380 --> 00:26:46.560well.57600:26:46.660 --> 00:26:48.420We're told that his voice is a creaking57700:26:48.420 --> 00:26:49.540and whistling voice.57800:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.020There's lots of sibilant sounds.57900:26:54.220 --> 00:26:56.260And we'll look at in a moment at58000:26:56.260 --> 00:26:58.000this sentence structure as well.58100:26:58.100 --> 00:26:58.840So it's all there.58200:26:58.940 --> 00:27:00.620It's very well crafted.58300:27:01.500 --> 00:27:03.840And it reads out very well.58400:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.620If you are listening to audio versions of58500:27:06.620 --> 00:27:10.900this on your dog walks or whatever, one58600:27:10.900 --> 00:27:12.860of the things that's the delight of the58700:27:12.860 --> 00:27:15.120Andy Serkis read version of this is that58800:27:15.120 --> 00:27:17.820you hear him do the extended dialogue.58900:27:17.820 --> 00:27:21.340All the Gollum bits in his Gollum voice.59000:27:22.020 --> 00:27:23.600So this is a great chapter to listen59100:27:23.600 --> 00:27:24.780to in that version.59200:27:26.140 --> 00:27:28.000One of the things to note from a59300:27:28.000 --> 00:27:33.120writing point of view is that Gollum knows59400:27:33.120 --> 00:27:34.380exactly what he's doing.59500:27:36.660 --> 00:27:41.860When he talks about himself, self-referential, we,59600:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.520and says precious with a lowercase p, he's59700:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.300talking about himself, loving himself, the precious that59800:27:50.300 --> 00:27:50.940is himself.59900:27:52.320 --> 00:27:56.600When the speech has a capital P, my60000:27:56.600 --> 00:28:00.120precious, then he's talking about the ring.60100:28:00.680 --> 00:28:02.160So next time you read it, do look60200:28:02.160 --> 00:28:04.160out for that because it helps.60300:28:04.360 --> 00:28:05.280Well, it makes it clearer.60400:28:05.400 --> 00:28:07.820In fact, what he's actually saying once you60500:28:07.820 --> 00:28:10.840notice the difference, but also it shows that60600:28:10.840 --> 00:28:14.340Gollum has a very clear delineation.60700:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.040The precious is, I would say that he60800:28:18.040 --> 00:28:19.220is an extension of the precious.60900:28:19.640 --> 00:28:20.920I was about to say the precious is61000:28:20.920 --> 00:28:22.340an extension of him, but it's actually the61100:28:22.340 --> 00:28:26.160other way around, that that's the capital P61200:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.520precious and he is a sort of servant61300:28:28.520 --> 00:28:28.960of it.61400:28:30.760 --> 00:28:33.920Also note that his thoughts are stuck in61500:28:33.920 --> 00:28:35.980obsessive circles.61600:28:36.780 --> 00:28:40.380He repeats himself a lot, thieves, thieves, and61700:28:40.380 --> 00:28:40.840so on.61800:28:41.780 --> 00:28:46.220And he often refers to the same grievances.61900:28:46.580 --> 00:28:48.580He just goes round and round and round.62000:28:48.700 --> 00:28:49.720He's exhausted.62100:28:49.980 --> 00:28:54.820He's a tired, broken record in terms of62200:28:54.820 --> 00:28:56.620his inner monologue.62300:28:58.850 --> 00:29:02.430And his entry into the story is very62400:29:02.430 --> 00:29:02.810vivid.62500:29:03.550 --> 00:29:04.950And I think perhaps this is one of62600:29:04.950 --> 00:29:07.530the best visualizations in this chapter.62700:29:08.110 --> 00:29:11.510He's coming down the same rock face that62800:29:11.510 --> 00:29:14.110the Hobbits climbed down and he's coming down62900:29:14.110 --> 00:29:16.110head first because he seems to be smelling63000:29:16.110 --> 00:29:17.050the track.63100:29:17.850 --> 00:29:20.210As he did so, he falls because he63200:29:20.210 --> 00:29:22.590reaches an undercut place where he can't cling63300:29:22.590 --> 00:29:22.850on.63400:29:23.350 --> 00:29:25.130As he did so, he curled his legs63500:29:25.130 --> 00:29:27.870and arms up round him like a spider63600:29:27.870 --> 00:29:30.170whose descending thread is snapped.63700:29:30.170 --> 00:29:33.790I can totally see that in my head.63800:29:34.470 --> 00:29:40.950It's also, you know, there is, is it63900:29:40.950 --> 00:29:42.370foreshadowing maybe?64000:29:42.810 --> 00:29:44.690But the idea, of course, he is also64100:29:44.690 --> 00:29:47.230the spider's servant, which we will only find64200:29:47.230 --> 00:29:48.150out in a few chapters.64300:29:49.710 --> 00:29:52.850This takes us on to the key moment64400:29:52.850 --> 00:29:56.490of this book, really, as in the two64500:29:56.490 --> 00:29:56.930towers.64600:29:57.750 --> 00:30:00.250It is the key moment when they decide64700:30:00.250 --> 00:30:01.290what to do with Gollum.64800:30:03.110 --> 00:30:06.990And after the tussle, when they restrain Gollum,64900:30:07.910 --> 00:30:10.310we have some flashbacks.65000:30:11.530 --> 00:30:13.010There's actually two of them.65100:30:13.090 --> 00:30:15.730I hadn't noticed this until I read it65200:30:15.730 --> 00:30:16.170this time.65300:30:17.030 --> 00:30:21.370We've got Frodo remembering an entire conversation with65400:30:21.370 --> 00:30:24.270Gandalf that happened on that morning in the65500:30:24.270 --> 00:30:25.650Shire long, long ago.65600:30:26.690 --> 00:30:29.230And it's replayed.65700:30:29.250 --> 00:30:31.050I don't think it's exactly word for word,65800:30:31.190 --> 00:30:34.190but it's the gist or almost the entirety65900:30:34.190 --> 00:30:38.030of that conversation slightly, slightly changed as it66000:30:38.030 --> 00:30:40.050would be if you were remembering a conversation.66100:30:41.010 --> 00:30:50.490And, of course, he is recalling that Gandalf66200:30:50.490 --> 00:30:55.330saying, when Bilbo met Gollum, it was pity66300:30:55.330 --> 00:30:58.090that stayed his hand.66400:30:58.810 --> 00:31:01.730And that's an absolutely key sentence in the66500:31:01.730 --> 00:31:02.490whole book.66600:31:03.590 --> 00:31:07.370And note here that pity is given a66700:31:07.370 --> 00:31:08.170capital P.66800:31:08.590 --> 00:31:12.850When Gandalf speaks of pity, it's like a66900:31:13.750 --> 00:31:16.130powerful, almost religious concept.67000:31:16.550 --> 00:31:20.230And you've got the capital P, precious, which67100:31:20.230 --> 00:31:23.750is evil and obsession and everything that's bad67200:31:23.750 --> 00:31:30.230consuming you, contrasted with the capital P, pity,67300:31:30.230 --> 00:31:33.230which is the characteristic of those who are67400:31:33.230 --> 00:31:34.550good in this story.67500:31:35.790 --> 00:31:38.410And we also get the very telling phrase67600:31:38.410 --> 00:31:42.430that Frodo remembers, even the wise cannot see67700:31:42.430 --> 00:31:43.090all ends.67800:31:43.170 --> 00:31:44.870That goes back to what Frodo was saying67900:31:44.870 --> 00:31:46.430about, is it good or ill?68000:31:46.530 --> 00:31:47.670It's going to show me the way.68100:31:50.920 --> 00:31:55.100And Frodo is standing there talking to the68200:31:55.100 --> 00:31:57.120Gandalf, who at this stage he thinks is68300:31:57.120 --> 00:31:57.480dead.68400:31:59.840 --> 00:32:04.340And he's finally replying to the question that68500:32:04.340 --> 00:32:07.020Gandalf raised at that time.68600:32:07.900 --> 00:32:10.900And he says, for now that I see68700:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.200him, I do pity him.68800:32:13.820 --> 00:32:17.540And that quality in Frodo is what's going68900:32:17.540 --> 00:32:20.540to save the world in terms of the69000:32:20.540 --> 00:32:21.300Middle Earth world.69100:32:23.340 --> 00:32:25.640I think what follows here is one of69200:32:25.640 --> 00:32:27.720the best dialogues in the story.69300:32:27.840 --> 00:32:29.100In fact, one of the best dialogues in69400:32:29.100 --> 00:32:29.540fantasy.69500:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.280And you've got Sam watching this balance, this69600:32:34.280 --> 00:32:39.360struggle between Frodo and Gollum, the sort of69700:32:39.360 --> 00:32:41.600questioning of why Gollum is there and so69800:32:41.600 --> 00:32:41.840on.69900:32:42.660 --> 00:32:46.740And you see that Frodo is no pushover.70000:32:47.060 --> 00:32:48.820He is the officer in charge of this70100:32:48.820 --> 00:32:51.580little scouting party that's out in the no70200:32:51.580 --> 00:32:52.260man's land.70300:32:53.520 --> 00:32:56.080And you get lots of little phrases that70400:32:56.080 --> 00:33:01.120sum up Gollum's character, because when he's trying70500:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.480to answer a question, he goes, yes, yes,70600:33:03.560 --> 00:33:03.920no.70700:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.320That's him.70800:33:05.380 --> 00:33:05.920He's torn.70900:33:06.020 --> 00:33:07.320He can't give a straight answer.71000:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.280He wants to lie, but he can't quite.71100:33:11.480 --> 00:33:14.000He's just fractured, broken.71200:33:14.980 --> 00:33:17.720And after having seen Frodo refer to his71300:33:17.720 --> 00:33:20.060past, we then get a little moment where71400:33:20.060 --> 00:33:23.820Gollum is lost in his past, where he71500:33:23.820 --> 00:33:26.880is reliving what seems to have been his71600:33:26.880 --> 00:33:27.340torture.71700:33:28.800 --> 00:33:30.720And Frodo understands this.71800:33:32.890 --> 00:33:34.910And his response to seeing Gollum sort of71900:33:34.910 --> 00:33:39.050have this flashback to these traumatic events is,72000:33:39.150 --> 00:33:40.590but if you really wish to be free72100:33:40.590 --> 00:33:42.090of him, that's Sauron.72200:33:42.610 --> 00:33:44.110If you really wish to be free of72300:33:44.110 --> 00:33:46.190him again, then you must help me.72400:33:47.290 --> 00:33:48.790Gollum doesn't know what that means at this72500:33:48.790 --> 00:33:49.070point.72600:33:51.900 --> 00:33:54.820And Gollum's reaction is a sort of sullen,72700:33:55.260 --> 00:33:59.040truculent, almost childlike refusal.72800:34:00.540 --> 00:34:03.520And how we tell this is he breaks72900:34:03.520 --> 00:34:06.400into little sentences.73000:34:10.820 --> 00:34:12.540He's being rude in a way.73100:34:13.639 --> 00:34:14.179Sneary.73200:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.280Always there.73300:34:15.780 --> 00:34:17.120Orcs will take you all the way.73400:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.040Easy to find orcs east of the river.73500:34:19.480 --> 00:34:20.320Don't ask Smeagol.73600:34:20.659 --> 00:34:21.620Poor, poor Smeagol.73700:34:21.719 --> 00:34:23.100He went away long ago.73800:34:23.560 --> 00:34:25.560They took his precious and his loss now.73900:34:26.480 --> 00:34:30.639That poor, poor Smeagol, he went away long74000:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.360ago is truer than Gollum Smeagol knows, of74100:34:33.360 --> 00:34:33.679course.74200:34:33.980 --> 00:34:36.739He's lost himself when he found the ring.74300:34:38.719 --> 00:34:44.560And Frodo's strength-ish is actually most evident74400:34:44.560 --> 00:34:47.360at this point because he cuts through Gollum's74500:34:47.360 --> 00:34:47.960rubbish.74600:34:49.239 --> 00:34:50.219And he says, get up.74700:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.520Right, come on.74800:34:51.620 --> 00:34:53.659It's the sort of cool to let's stop74900:34:53.659 --> 00:34:54.120this.75000:34:54.760 --> 00:34:56.100You're not going to pull the wool over75100:34:56.100 --> 00:34:56.840my eyes.75200:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.400And this is where they put the rope75300:35:01.400 --> 00:35:04.880on Gollum and you get the history of75400:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.340Gollum wailing and whining.75500:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.020And one of the telling little details here75600:35:10.020 --> 00:35:13.240is Frodo becomes convinced that Sam has been75700:35:13.240 --> 00:35:14.820cruel and tied it too tight.75800:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.580And then he notices or he checks, he75900:35:17.580 --> 00:35:20.320finds that Sam had been gentler than his76000:35:20.320 --> 00:35:20.980words.76100:35:21.740 --> 00:35:24.140So Sam betrays himself in his actions, even76200:35:24.140 --> 00:35:26.180though his words may on occasion be a76300:35:26.180 --> 00:35:30.600bit, well, not exactly cruel, but certainly short76400:35:30.600 --> 00:35:31.060tempered.76500:35:32.060 --> 00:35:33.120And now they go on to talking about76600:35:33.120 --> 00:35:33.560the rope.76700:35:34.100 --> 00:35:39.620There's a lovely, the objection from Gollum is76800:35:39.620 --> 00:35:40.840that elves twisted it.76900:35:41.080 --> 00:35:43.260And that word twisted, of course, when we're77000:35:43.260 --> 00:35:44.880reading that, we're thinking, well, yeah, you've been77100:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.440twisted.77200:35:46.140 --> 00:35:47.980You've been twisted by Sauron.77300:35:48.700 --> 00:35:50.520So you've got the twisted rope of the77400:35:50.520 --> 00:35:55.140elves versus the twisted character, the body of77500:35:55.140 --> 00:35:56.140poor old Gollum.77600:35:57.160 --> 00:35:59.820And carrying on with this idea of Frodo77700:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.540actually being much stronger than perhaps the rather77800:36:02.540 --> 00:36:05.780gentler, sweet, young Elijah Wood version of this77900:36:05.780 --> 00:36:11.380is that when Gollum says he will swear78000:36:11.380 --> 00:36:14.080on the ring, you've got Frodo saying, how78100:36:14.080 --> 00:36:14.840dare you?78200:36:15.480 --> 00:36:16.660How dare you say that?78300:36:16.700 --> 00:36:18.520And we know that's a worrying sign because78400:36:18.520 --> 00:36:20.580Frodo is getting under the power of the78500:36:20.580 --> 00:36:23.680ring too, but he's not yet succumbed.78600:36:23.680 --> 00:36:26.680He still knows himself and he's doing this78700:36:26.680 --> 00:36:28.020with stern pity.78800:36:28.660 --> 00:36:31.760So pity isn't soft and soggy, it's stern.78900:36:33.040 --> 00:36:35.580And this is where Sam as the external79000:36:35.580 --> 00:36:38.540point of view is useful because in this79100:36:38.540 --> 00:36:43.520standoff between the two, Gollum and Frodo, Sam79200:36:43.520 --> 00:36:45.620is thinking that Frodo looks like a mighty79300:36:45.620 --> 00:36:48.760lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud79400:36:48.760 --> 00:36:51.360and at his feet a little whining dog.79500:36:52.340 --> 00:36:55.100Yet, and that is perhaps the interesting qualification79600:36:55.100 --> 00:36:57.660here, yet the two were in some way79700:36:57.660 --> 00:36:59.280akin and not alien.79800:37:00.240 --> 00:37:03.220They could reach one another's minds.79900:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.080Sam knows he's outside of this.80000:37:06.700 --> 00:37:08.640Note that it's not till Sam has actually80100:37:08.640 --> 00:37:10.840had the experience of wearing the ring right80200:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.520towards the end when he has his moment80300:37:13.520 --> 00:37:18.060of pity with Gollum that he can fully80400:37:18.060 --> 00:37:18.740sympathise.80500:37:19.740 --> 00:37:20.920And Gollum makes his vow.80600:37:22.140 --> 00:37:24.980And of course, if we're reading carefully, we80700:37:24.980 --> 00:37:27.600will see that it's a dangerous one.80800:37:28.400 --> 00:37:32.080I, so it's a unitary self, that's more80900:37:32.080 --> 00:37:34.880often Smeagol who says that, I will serve81000:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.560the master of the precious.81100:37:40.590 --> 00:37:43.750Obviously, that's the wiggle room he's left himself.81200:37:45.630 --> 00:37:48.650And he flips into being friendly, and this81300:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.250is what Sam is thinking now, friendly and81400:37:51.250 --> 00:37:53.430pitifully anxious to please.81500:37:53.590 --> 00:37:56.130But that just sets Sam's teeth on edge81600:37:56.130 --> 00:37:57.010even more.81700:37:57.670 --> 00:38:00.030He distrusts him even more when he's trying81800:38:00.030 --> 00:38:02.890to please, which I think is quite apparent.81900:38:03.570 --> 00:38:05.230Of course, we will be getting that moment82000:38:05.230 --> 00:38:08.670of almost salvation for Gollum coming up not82100:38:08.670 --> 00:38:10.230too long after.82200:38:11.690 --> 00:38:14.710So it's a fascinating chapter, perhaps not the82300:38:14.710 --> 00:38:16.750easiest one to read because of the confusion82400:38:16.750 --> 00:38:20.630of the landscape and the frustrations and the82500:38:20.630 --> 00:38:23.010feeling that we're not going forwards but circling.82600:38:23.110 --> 00:38:24.890But actually, we've made a huge step forward82700:38:24.890 --> 00:38:26.910in terms of the real quest that's going82800:38:26.910 --> 00:38:28.350on, the inner quest.82900:38:29.250 --> 00:38:31.490And it ends as it started on an83000:38:31.490 --> 00:38:32.270anonymous note.83100:38:32.830 --> 00:38:35.050Over all the leagues of waste before the83200:38:35.050 --> 00:38:38.230gates of Mordor, there was a black silence.83300:38:39.310 --> 00:38:41.370And the next chapter will take us onto83400:38:41.370 --> 00:38:42.410the dead marshes.83500:38:42.970 --> 00:38:44.810So we'll see what happens to them then.83600:38:44.970 --> 00:38:46.150Thank you very much for listening.83700:38:46.850 --> 00:38:50.670And as I said, may seem a difficult83800:38:50.670 --> 00:38:52.990chapter to read, but we are meeting one83900:38:52.990 --> 00:38:55.230of those great characters in fantasy literature.84000:38:55.350 --> 00:38:57.710So it's worth battling our way through.84100:39:02.680 --> 00:39:06.680Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought84200:39:06.680 --> 00:39:09.060to you by the Oxford Center for Fantasy.84300:39:09.820 --> 00:39:13.640Visit OxfordCenterForFantasy.org to join in the fun.84400:39:14.320 --> 00:39:17.200Find out about our online courses, in-person84500:39:17.200 --> 00:39:20.300stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for84600:39:20.300 --> 00:39:21.280great gifts.84700:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.640Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find84800:39:24.640 --> 00:39:27.280your favorite podcasts worldwide.