I Know No Other Way - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 4 Ch 3

100:00:04.640 --> 00:00:06.840Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.200:00:07.100 --> 00:00:09.980Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans300:00:09.980 --> 00:00:12.560and fantasy creatives brought to you by the400:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.000Oxford Centre for Fantasy.500:00:14.440 --> 00:00:17.700My name is Julia Golding and I'm continuing600:00:17.700 --> 00:00:21.020our Sidecast series as we read our way700:00:21.020 --> 00:00:23.740through The Lord of the Rings, taking a800:00:23.740 --> 00:00:25.720look at it from an author's point of900:00:25.720 --> 00:00:25.900view.1000:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.060And today we have reached chapter three in1100:00:29.060 --> 00:00:29.540book four.1200:00:29.740 --> 00:00:31.560So that's halfway through The Two Towers.1300:00:31.860 --> 00:00:35.420And this chapter is called The Black Gate1400:00:35.420 --> 00:00:36.920Is Closed.1500:00:37.620 --> 00:00:39.700So that really tells you what's going on1600:00:39.700 --> 00:00:40.460in this chapter.1700:00:40.800 --> 00:00:43.540And I was thinking about what is in1800:00:43.540 --> 00:00:46.160fact a relatively short chapter by the standard1900:00:46.160 --> 00:00:48.860of the other ones in this book, that2000:00:48.860 --> 00:00:53.300in terms of its structure, it really is2100:00:53.300 --> 00:00:57.980hinged around a decision or it leads up2200:00:57.980 --> 00:00:59.020in fact to a decision.2300:00:59.820 --> 00:01:02.500So it's not a complicated one.2400:01:02.660 --> 00:01:06.740They arrive, they discuss, Frodo has a decision2500:01:06.740 --> 00:01:09.460to make and that is the structure of2600:01:09.460 --> 00:01:10.000the chapter.2700:01:10.980 --> 00:01:13.980And it's interesting that Tolkien wanted to separate2800:01:13.980 --> 00:01:17.780it out from the previous material, crossing the2900:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.360marshes and the material to come, which is3000:01:20.360 --> 00:01:23.940when they head off into Ithilien, because it3100:01:23.940 --> 00:01:26.640is one of those moments on which the3200:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.520quest hangs on the decision of a individual.3300:01:31.360 --> 00:01:33.340And so he is highlighting that in the3400:01:33.340 --> 00:01:34.220choice of structure.3500:01:34.320 --> 00:01:35.560So when you think about this as an3600:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.300author, remember the power of your divisions that3700:01:39.300 --> 00:01:39.980you can do that.3800:01:40.060 --> 00:01:42.680You can put something in a separate package3900:01:42.680 --> 00:01:44.200so people really focus on it.4000:01:44.740 --> 00:01:47.120Okay, so let's think about this chapter and4100:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.200the decision that Frodo is taking.4200:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.100He is actually one of those chapters that4300:01:53.100 --> 00:01:55.420starts with a fairly shocking and a bit4400:01:55.420 --> 00:01:58.820misleading first line, because the first line is,4500:01:59.040 --> 00:02:02.480before the next day dawned, their journey to4600:02:02.480 --> 00:02:03.620Mordor was over.4700:02:04.680 --> 00:02:06.260And I've mentioned a couple of times that4800:02:06.260 --> 00:02:10.240in the original plan, as far as he4900:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.840planned, Tolkien had thought he was getting near5000:02:12.840 --> 00:02:13.240the end.5100:02:14.060 --> 00:02:15.900And perhaps it was when he reached the5200:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.760gates and thought, hang on a minute, it5300:02:17.760 --> 00:02:19.240really isn't going to be so easy that5400:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.300you don't just walk into Mordor to borrow5500:02:21.300 --> 00:02:23.640the famous Boromir phrase.5600:02:24.640 --> 00:02:26.340It's got to be harder.5700:02:27.520 --> 00:02:32.260You don't want a story where the sequence5800:02:32.260 --> 00:02:33.620of events isn't earned.5900:02:33.780 --> 00:02:35.840So imagine an alternative where he thinks, okay,6000:02:35.860 --> 00:02:38.460we're at the gates, they're going to smuggle6100:02:38.460 --> 00:02:40.560themselves in on the end of a line6200:02:40.560 --> 00:02:45.140of marching soldiers or in a wagon, pretending6300:02:45.140 --> 00:02:46.300to be a barrel of something.6400:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.120He possibly ran all these different scenarios in6500:02:50.120 --> 00:02:50.480his mind.6600:02:50.880 --> 00:02:53.420If we're going to believe that the bad6700:02:53.420 --> 00:02:57.060guy, if the Dark Lord is all powerful,6800:02:57.200 --> 00:02:59.140it's got to be hard to get close.6900:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.160It's got to be hard to get into7000:03:01.160 --> 00:03:01.720his land.7100:03:02.580 --> 00:03:05.660If his world is too porous, then he's7200:03:05.660 --> 00:03:06.780not much of a threat, is he?7300:03:08.300 --> 00:03:12.180So the passage after that gives you a7400:03:12.180 --> 00:03:13.460new piece of orientation.7500:03:13.760 --> 00:03:17.920Tolkien's very good in setting up this imaginary7600:03:17.920 --> 00:03:19.180landscape for us.7700:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.620And this is the first time we've got7800:03:20.620 --> 00:03:22.280close to Mordor.7900:03:22.680 --> 00:03:26.100So he tells us of the main ranges8000:03:26.100 --> 00:03:27.180of mountains.8100:03:27.760 --> 00:03:33.580He is using words that describe them based8200:03:33.580 --> 00:03:36.880in Elvish, and they have a meaning for8300:03:36.880 --> 00:03:37.160him.8400:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.660But what I find interesting is that he8500:03:39.660 --> 00:03:42.180doesn't tell us the meaning, but he does8600:03:42.180 --> 00:03:45.300gloss it by the descriptors just in front8700:03:45.940 --> 00:03:46.900of each of them.8800:03:47.380 --> 00:03:51.480So he talks about the gloomy range of8900:03:51.480 --> 00:03:54.020Efel Duath, the Mountains of Shadow.9000:03:54.440 --> 00:03:56.020So he does translate that.9100:03:56.520 --> 00:03:58.660But then he goes on to talk about9200:03:58.660 --> 00:04:03.580Ered Lithwi, Grey's Ash, and the Elven Sindarin,9300:04:03.680 --> 00:04:04.220I think it is.9400:04:04.620 --> 00:04:07.940I'm not great on Elvish, is the idea9500:04:07.940 --> 00:04:08.520of ash.9600:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.360And then you go inside into places like9700:04:11.360 --> 00:04:14.400the Sea of Núrnirn, that holds its idea9800:04:14.400 --> 00:04:15.380of sad or bitterness.9900:04:15.700 --> 00:04:19.339So he's not wanting to keep stop the10000:04:19.339 --> 00:04:21.520action to give you his clever language glosses.10100:04:21.560 --> 00:04:22.920He puts it there in the description.10200:04:23.220 --> 00:04:24.780So you understand the context.10300:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.000So we now know, we get to understand10400:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.920there are some roots of Elvish, which we10500:04:29.920 --> 00:04:30.920see again and again.10600:04:31.640 --> 00:04:32.620And so we can probably do a bit10700:04:32.620 --> 00:04:33.580of guessing ourselves.10800:04:34.840 --> 00:04:37.280And that is important because we're going to10900:04:37.280 --> 00:04:39.860come towards the end of the chapter where11000:04:39.860 --> 00:04:44.380an hidden name is actually a massive clue11100:04:44.380 --> 00:04:46.960as to what they're going to face next.11200:04:48.640 --> 00:04:50.960One of the interesting things about Tolkien in11300:04:50.960 --> 00:04:55.920his imagination is his belief that evil is11400:04:56.380 --> 00:04:58.060a corruption of the good.11500:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.060And you see that in such things like11600:05:00.060 --> 00:05:00.940the Orc Race.11700:05:02.200 --> 00:05:04.180But you get it here in terms of11800:05:04.180 --> 00:05:06.400the buildings that edge Mordor.11900:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.860I'm only aware really of there being one12000:05:09.860 --> 00:05:13.260structure other than Rhodes in Mordor, which is12100:05:13.260 --> 00:05:15.540built by the Dark Lord, which is Barad12200:05:15.540 --> 00:05:15.780-dûr.12300:05:16.520 --> 00:05:20.620But all the other towers are based on12400:05:20.620 --> 00:05:22.920Númenórean buildings, which were put there to keep12500:05:22.920 --> 00:05:27.560watch and were then overrun and turned to12600:05:27.560 --> 00:05:28.460evil purposes.12700:05:29.180 --> 00:05:31.240So what was a defensive move becomes a12800:05:32.060 --> 00:05:33.220flipped over.12900:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.920And that sort of goes with the philosophy13000:05:35.920 --> 00:05:37.820about where evil comes from.13100:05:38.640 --> 00:05:43.000It creates little, but corrupts a lot.13200:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.840And the descriptors here reinforce that with some13300:05:48.840 --> 00:05:51.880telling phrases like, none could pass the teeth13400:05:51.880 --> 00:05:54.140of Mordor and not feel their bite.13500:05:54.960 --> 00:05:58.580So the landscape is almost a character here,13600:05:58.660 --> 00:06:01.200as very often it is in Tolkien.13700:06:02.420 --> 00:06:03.740It reminds me quite a lot of the13800:06:03.740 --> 00:06:05.620Cold War, the way this is described.13900:06:07.440 --> 00:06:09.760Some people listening to this will perhaps not14000:06:09.760 --> 00:06:12.100remember that, but there was a sense of14100:06:12.100 --> 00:06:17.760a line across Europe with these security guards14200:06:17.760 --> 00:06:21.300on the borders, but the Berlin Wall was14300:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.300being constructed in the 50s.14400:06:23.420 --> 00:06:26.960So perhaps that's not the right comparison, but14500:06:26.960 --> 00:06:28.920certainly by the time I was reading it,14600:06:29.240 --> 00:06:30.640that was the kind of thing I was14700:06:30.640 --> 00:06:36.080thinking of, that dangerous space in Berlin between14800:06:36.080 --> 00:06:38.040East and West where people would get shot14900:06:38.040 --> 00:06:38.920trying to get across.15000:06:39.020 --> 00:06:43.720It's that feeling of the landscape separating sides15100:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.960that he captures very well here.15200:06:46.540 --> 00:06:49.860Full of grim, but great detail.15300:06:50.500 --> 00:06:52.500There's a moment when you get a brass15400:06:52.500 --> 00:06:56.160fanfare and he sums it up like this.15500:06:56.300 --> 00:06:59.600Another dreadful day of fear and toil had15600:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.600come to Mordor and the night guards were15700:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.020summoned to their dungeons and deep halls and15800:07:06.020 --> 00:07:09.340the day guards, evil-eyed and fell, were15900:07:09.340 --> 00:07:10.900marching to their posts.16000:07:11.220 --> 00:07:13.580So he gives you this sense of a16100:07:13.580 --> 00:07:21.560well-regulated, militaristic, oppressive world which keeps on16200:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.160ticking over every day, every dreadful day.16300:07:25.640 --> 00:07:28.800So once he's painted that, we get, of16400:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.600course, a little bit of shire grounding where16500:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.880Sam is saying well, if the gaffer could16600:07:34.880 --> 00:07:37.220see me now, he'd say I told you16700:07:37.220 --> 00:07:37.640so.16800:07:38.760 --> 00:07:40.060And it does feel as though they've come16900:07:40.060 --> 00:07:40.720to a dead end.17000:07:40.800 --> 00:07:41.820So what are they going to do?17100:07:41.880 --> 00:07:47.120They're in an impasse and Frodo, he refuses17200:07:47.120 --> 00:07:54.520really to accept Gollum's view that obviously they17300:07:54.520 --> 00:07:55.340can't go any further.17400:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.200And this is where Frodo is, in some17500:07:58.200 --> 00:08:02.440ways, that he's very, he's most heroic.17600:08:03.460 --> 00:08:06.520And his face was grim and set, but17700:08:06.520 --> 00:08:07.140resolute.17800:08:07.760 --> 00:08:09.540And he follows simple logic.17900:08:09.920 --> 00:08:11.400I know no other way.18000:08:12.020 --> 00:08:14.620Every time I read this, I ask myself18100:08:14.620 --> 00:08:17.440a question that Tolkien raises later in this18200:08:17.440 --> 00:08:20.480chapter, which is, we never do find out18300:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.940what other way Gandalf might have planned.18400:08:25.320 --> 00:08:29.360There is no, because he's shocked when he18500:08:29.360 --> 00:08:32.880hears about going through Cirith Ungol.18600:08:33.460 --> 00:08:34.659So what other way was there?18700:08:35.940 --> 00:08:37.419I don't know that he ever answers it.18800:08:37.659 --> 00:08:40.039Maybe Gandalf never actually, in terms of the18900:08:40.039 --> 00:08:41.700plot, Gandalf never has to say, oh well,19000:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.920if you followed my plan, I'd have gone19100:08:43.920 --> 00:08:44.480around the back.19200:08:45.080 --> 00:08:46.760It doesn't seem as though there's an easy19300:08:46.760 --> 00:08:47.160answer.19400:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.780So Frodo's quite right.19500:08:48.960 --> 00:08:49.940I know no other way.19600:08:51.380 --> 00:08:53.320And this actually prompts what I think is19700:08:53.320 --> 00:08:58.120probably the best summary of the threat that19800:08:58.120 --> 00:08:59.940Sauron poses.19900:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.800And surprisingly, it's actually from Gollum that this20000:09:02.800 --> 00:09:03.320comes.20100:09:04.220 --> 00:09:07.400He says, if the Dark Lord gets the20200:09:07.400 --> 00:09:10.540ring, he'll eat us all, if he gets20300:09:10.540 --> 00:09:12.920it, eat all the world.20400:09:13.920 --> 00:09:18.160So he wants to consume and destroy.20500:09:18.640 --> 00:09:19.860And I think it's very vivid.20600:09:20.160 --> 00:09:21.880And it's simple words, simple stakes.20700:09:23.160 --> 00:09:25.260And then you get the little phrase, which20800:09:25.260 --> 00:09:29.640is let past to start, but comes back20900:09:29.640 --> 00:09:29.940again.21000:09:30.340 --> 00:09:32.600He says, give it, meaning the ring, back21100:09:32.600 --> 00:09:33.560to Smeagol.21200:09:34.560 --> 00:09:36.340So what is going on in this?21300:09:36.520 --> 00:09:40.460I don't know, but I'm wondering if Tolkien21400:09:40.460 --> 00:09:42.740actually knew what was going to happen.21500:09:43.320 --> 00:09:47.200Sometimes as a writer, if you don't plan,21600:09:49.530 --> 00:09:51.290I mean, I expect Tolkien knew the ring21700:09:51.290 --> 00:09:52.330was going to go into the fire.21800:09:52.450 --> 00:09:54.090He had a sense of where his ending21900:09:54.090 --> 00:09:56.170was going, but he didn't know the route22000:09:56.170 --> 00:09:56.670to get there.22100:09:58.170 --> 00:09:59.810And he's probably reached a point here.22200:09:59.910 --> 00:10:04.030I feel he's reached a point that he22300:10:04.030 --> 00:10:05.610has written himself to the edge of what22400:10:05.610 --> 00:10:06.170he knows.22500:10:06.670 --> 00:10:08.670Philip Pullman has a phrase about writing into22600:10:08.670 --> 00:10:09.150the dark.22700:10:09.270 --> 00:10:10.670He's in one of those dark moments.22800:10:10.770 --> 00:10:12.250He doesn't know the next steps.22900:10:13.150 --> 00:10:15.050So I get the sense that this debate23000:10:15.050 --> 00:10:16.970is almost a debate he's having with himself.23100:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.710He's hoping the characters will show him a23200:10:20.710 --> 00:10:21.570way out of it.23300:10:22.170 --> 00:10:22.790That's my guess.23400:10:22.870 --> 00:10:26.470That's what I feel myself when I write23500:10:26.470 --> 00:10:28.130things, that I meet these moments.23600:10:28.230 --> 00:10:29.250And this is what I feel here.23700:10:30.090 --> 00:10:32.810There are obviously earlier versions of this in23800:10:32.810 --> 00:10:35.130the papers, but I think that it still23900:10:35.130 --> 00:10:37.210holds true that when the first drafting of24000:10:37.210 --> 00:10:40.090this, he was looking for that chink of24100:10:40.090 --> 00:10:41.610light that would show him a way forward.24200:10:43.090 --> 00:10:44.650Frodo is the person who is kind of24300:10:44.650 --> 00:10:46.990representing the stuck author, shall we say.24400:10:47.270 --> 00:10:49.330He's saying what comes after must come.24500:10:50.270 --> 00:10:52.590I'm going to go ahead, whatever happens.24600:10:53.850 --> 00:10:58.170Sam is showing his own heroics by saying24700:10:58.170 --> 00:11:01.530that whatever happens, he's not going to go24800:11:01.530 --> 00:11:01.890alone.24900:11:03.210 --> 00:11:06.590And within this little group of three, Tolkien25000:11:06.590 --> 00:11:09.070comes to the realisation that if anyone is25100:11:09.070 --> 00:11:10.630going to come up with an alternative, it25200:11:10.630 --> 00:11:12.730will have to be Smeagol, Gollum.25300:11:13.430 --> 00:11:15.710And he's hinted at it already, of course,25400:11:16.270 --> 00:11:19.030when he talked about maybe she will help,25500:11:20.010 --> 00:11:22.150which had come in the previous chapter.25600:11:22.870 --> 00:11:24.270And he is the one who has the25700:11:24.270 --> 00:11:24.710alternative.25800:11:25.310 --> 00:11:27.110That is logical, isn't it?25900:11:27.170 --> 00:11:30.630Because Smeagol has come out of Mordor, so26000:11:30.630 --> 00:11:33.030he will know a way back in.26100:11:33.170 --> 00:11:35.950So he provides the answer.26200:11:36.650 --> 00:11:38.510And that's very often when you're writing, you'll26300:11:38.510 --> 00:11:40.570find that the answer is there amongst the26400:11:40.570 --> 00:11:41.930elements you've already assembled.26500:11:42.090 --> 00:11:43.730You just need to work out which one26600:11:43.730 --> 00:11:45.410it is, which of the clues it is,26700:11:45.910 --> 00:11:48.050or which thread it is that you tug26800:11:48.050 --> 00:11:50.870that will release that particularly knotted point of26900:11:50.870 --> 00:11:51.290the plot.27000:11:53.090 --> 00:11:55.330The points of view that you get in27100:11:55.330 --> 00:11:59.950this chapter are fascinating because you've got largely27200:11:59.950 --> 00:12:03.530Sam, you get a bit of Frodo, and27300:12:03.530 --> 00:12:04.730you get a bit of the narrator.27400:12:05.830 --> 00:12:09.250And Sam is interesting here because he is27500:12:09.250 --> 00:12:15.750getting to understand what Tolkien puts down as27600:12:15.750 --> 00:12:17.210a slow but shrewd mind.27700:12:17.810 --> 00:12:20.650He understands the two halves of Gollum and27800:12:20.650 --> 00:12:22.470Smeagol, slinker and stinker.27900:12:22.970 --> 00:12:26.590And he realises, having heard that discussion, he's28000:12:26.590 --> 00:12:29.970the one who knows that Gollum's already been28100:12:29.970 --> 00:12:33.730plotting, that the two halves have reached a28200:12:33.730 --> 00:12:35.910truce and a temporary alliance.28300:12:38.410 --> 00:12:42.390But what's really fascinating is the danger there,28400:12:42.750 --> 00:12:44.170if you think, oh, well, Sam knows what's28500:12:44.170 --> 00:12:47.070going on, it would make Frodo look a28600:12:47.070 --> 00:12:49.510bit of an idiot in contrast.28700:12:50.130 --> 00:12:52.550And Tolkien's very clear that that's not the28800:12:52.550 --> 00:12:52.930case.28900:12:53.770 --> 00:13:00.930In fact, he underlines that Frodo is the29000:13:00.930 --> 00:13:04.710officer in this little squad trying to invade29100:13:04.710 --> 00:13:05.650Mordor.29200:13:06.570 --> 00:13:07.610And so he goes to the edge of29300:13:07.610 --> 00:13:10.810the little cleft where they're hiding out, the29400:13:10.810 --> 00:13:13.270dell, and he's granted a kind of vision29500:13:13.270 --> 00:13:16.010of the state of affairs, seeing the movements29600:13:16.010 --> 00:13:16.690of peoples.29700:13:17.850 --> 00:13:21.110And he sees it's not the armies of29800:13:21.110 --> 00:13:23.830Gondor arriving, but it's further allies for the29900:13:23.830 --> 00:13:24.510Dark Lord.30000:13:25.590 --> 00:13:28.210So knowing that, knowing there is no easy30100:13:28.210 --> 00:13:30.650way in, of course, he didn't expect there30200:13:30.650 --> 00:13:34.790to be, he takes the first step in30300:13:34.790 --> 00:13:38.430his decision, which is saying, Smeagol, I will30400:13:38.430 --> 00:13:39.790trust you once more.30500:13:40.690 --> 00:13:42.630And he goes on with this phrase, may30600:13:42.630 --> 00:13:44.370the third time prove the best.30700:13:45.570 --> 00:13:49.530The companion to Lord of the Rings points30800:13:49.530 --> 00:13:51.810out that this is an old adage, which30900:13:51.810 --> 00:13:53.950you find in things like Sir Gawain in31000:13:53.950 --> 00:13:54.650the Green Knight.31100:13:54.950 --> 00:13:57.030Sir Gawain in the Green Knight, the test31200:13:57.030 --> 00:14:00.150of Sir Gawain is the rule of three.31300:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.550It's three times he has to pass the31400:14:03.550 --> 00:14:03.890test.31500:14:04.890 --> 00:14:06.630And it is actually a rule of narrative31600:14:06.630 --> 00:14:07.570three times.31700:14:08.750 --> 00:14:11.330That if you're wondering how many times you31800:14:11.330 --> 00:14:13.650attempt something, twice that fail and once they31900:14:13.650 --> 00:14:16.110succeed, it seems to be a pattern which32000:14:16.110 --> 00:14:17.770our storytelling brain likes.32100:14:18.230 --> 00:14:20.630But anyway, that has become a sort of32200:14:20.630 --> 00:14:24.030saying, and Frodo is using it here.32300:14:25.270 --> 00:14:30.610Because they have, it's not that Gollum has32400:14:30.610 --> 00:14:34.170failed them twice, it's more that they have32500:14:34.170 --> 00:14:36.550trusted him in small ways twice and he's32600:14:36.550 --> 00:14:37.290not failed them.32700:14:37.810 --> 00:14:41.390So this big gesture of trust is the32800:14:41.390 --> 00:14:43.870moment when, may it prove the best, that's32900:14:43.870 --> 00:14:44.730what's going on here.33000:14:46.350 --> 00:14:49.870But Frodo goes on, because occasionally there are33100:14:49.870 --> 00:14:52.310these prophetic moments in Lord of the Rings,33200:14:52.750 --> 00:14:55.510the sense that this world does have a33300:14:56.570 --> 00:15:00.190direction, a shape, a guiding hand.33400:15:00.290 --> 00:15:02.350And sometimes it's the insight of a character33500:15:02.350 --> 00:15:03.790that points the way.33600:15:04.330 --> 00:15:08.810Aron's done this, Galadriel's done this, Gandalf's done33700:15:08.810 --> 00:15:10.230this, and Frodo does too.33800:15:10.810 --> 00:15:16.510Because he warns Gollum that he, Gollum, is33900:15:16.510 --> 00:15:17.650the one most at risk.34000:15:18.190 --> 00:15:20.890Because the desire of it, that being the34100:15:20.890 --> 00:15:23.850ring, may betray you to a bitter end.34200:15:25.530 --> 00:15:28.890And the conclusion there, it's a kind of34300:15:28.890 --> 00:15:30.430mixture of Sam's point of view and the34400:15:30.430 --> 00:15:30.810narrator.34500:15:31.030 --> 00:15:34.490Sam is approving of Frodo's sternness.34600:15:35.610 --> 00:15:39.690And there's a sort of overall conclusion reached34700:15:39.690 --> 00:15:44.410at this point, to help us see Frodo34800:15:44.410 --> 00:15:50.350as this noble, heroic figure, which not to34900:15:50.350 --> 00:15:52.930mistake his kindness as softness.35000:15:53.750 --> 00:15:57.770Kindness is not blindness, is what's put here.35100:15:58.370 --> 00:16:00.990And I think one of the things that35200:16:00.990 --> 00:16:02.930the film did as a disservice to the35300:16:02.930 --> 00:16:05.810Frodo character is by casting it so young,35400:16:05.990 --> 00:16:09.650you miss out on this mature Frodo taking35500:16:09.650 --> 00:16:10.590the decisions.35600:16:11.030 --> 00:16:13.470Because of course, the Elijah Wood version of35700:16:13.470 --> 00:16:15.190this seems so incredibly young.35800:16:16.290 --> 00:16:18.350You don't get that sense of leadership.35900:16:18.710 --> 00:16:22.770And it's good to do that reset in36000:16:22.770 --> 00:16:24.530the brain to think about Frodo and its36100:16:24.530 --> 00:16:26.530character, how far he has to fall with36200:16:26.530 --> 00:16:31.090the ring from this authority, the wisdom that36300:16:31.090 --> 00:16:31.610he has.36400:16:31.850 --> 00:16:33.830There's a sense of his maturity and wisdom36500:16:33.830 --> 00:16:35.110here in these moments.36600:16:38.110 --> 00:16:40.830So Gollum is given a chance to sort36700:16:40.830 --> 00:16:42.390of make his case for what they should36800:16:42.390 --> 00:16:42.810be doing.36900:16:43.650 --> 00:16:47.870And he has this connection back to the37000:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.610tales he was told as a young proto37100:16:50.610 --> 00:16:54.230-hobbit, or when he was in the Smeagol37200:16:54.230 --> 00:16:56.250and Deagol phrases of his life, with tales37300:16:56.250 --> 00:16:57.250out of the south.37400:16:58.030 --> 00:17:01.710And it's an interesting way to restate the37500:17:01.710 --> 00:17:03.950history of Numenor, which we may have forgotten37600:17:03.950 --> 00:17:07.150by this point, because the early discussion of37700:17:07.150 --> 00:17:08.910that was way back in Fellowship of the37800:17:08.910 --> 00:17:11.089Ring with Aragorn on the road.37900:17:12.650 --> 00:17:15.950In fact, before that, it was with Tom38000:17:15.950 --> 00:17:17.230Bombadil, wasn't it?38100:17:17.569 --> 00:17:21.349But here, it's just summarized again, and it's38200:17:21.349 --> 00:17:25.630necessary to summarize it because Gollum is giving38300:17:25.630 --> 00:17:27.270the context that he's describing.38400:17:28.170 --> 00:17:30.890But it's one of those passages that does38500:17:30.890 --> 00:17:31.630lots of jobs.38600:17:31.830 --> 00:17:35.130It reminds us, it lays out the land,38700:17:35.570 --> 00:17:37.870gives us the historical perspective.38800:17:39.170 --> 00:17:41.730And it also introduces the idea of the38900:17:41.730 --> 00:17:45.230fall of the Dark Lord, Sauron.39000:17:45.890 --> 00:17:48.750And there's this mention of when he lost39100:17:48.750 --> 00:17:52.270the ring, and Gollum says about there being39200:17:52.270 --> 00:17:55.650only four fingers on the black hand.39300:17:57.880 --> 00:17:59.120This is interesting, isn't it?39400:17:59.140 --> 00:18:03.100Because he's kind of disembodied in the eye,39500:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.660but yet he's seen in the palantir.39600:18:07.540 --> 00:18:10.320It's possibly a case where, a bit like39700:18:10.320 --> 00:18:13.460the Black Riders, where the shape is clothed39800:18:13.460 --> 00:18:16.080in things like robes and gloves.39900:18:17.300 --> 00:18:19.000But anyway, so it suggests that Sauron does40000:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.640have a physical body as well as that40100:18:20.640 --> 00:18:20.860eye.40200:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.140Never quite worked that out in my mind.40300:18:23.560 --> 00:18:24.800If you know a bit more, let me40400:18:24.800 --> 00:18:26.060know what you think the answer to that40500:18:26.060 --> 00:18:26.300is.40600:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.300And then follows a argument mainly between Sam40700:18:32.300 --> 00:18:32.900and Gollum.40800:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.100And what I think is interesting here is40900:18:35.100 --> 00:18:37.600that you can tell that everybody is frustrated.41000:18:37.840 --> 00:18:42.940None of them want to do this, but41100:18:42.940 --> 00:18:46.800all of them have to.41200:18:48.080 --> 00:18:50.400Frodo because of his promise, Sam because of41300:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.180his loyalty, and Gollum because of his promise41400:18:53.180 --> 00:18:54.800to Frodo.41500:18:56.660 --> 00:18:58.960So one of the things to learn as41600:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.840an author is that sometimes what people are41700:19:01.840 --> 00:19:05.120really feeling can be displaced into something that41800:19:05.120 --> 00:19:06.580isn't directly about that.41900:19:06.800 --> 00:19:09.780So rather than say, Sam was really miffed42000:19:09.780 --> 00:19:12.300about it, you actually do it through how42100:19:12.300 --> 00:19:13.760he's reacting in this argument.42200:19:14.360 --> 00:19:16.440You very clearly get a sense of where42300:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.040they all stand on their current situation, because42400:19:20.040 --> 00:19:21.620they're so tetchy, so grumpy.42500:19:22.180 --> 00:19:27.240So Sam recognises he's not being fair to42600:19:27.240 --> 00:19:27.500Gollum.42700:19:27.740 --> 00:19:29.440Why did you bring us this way then?42800:19:29.900 --> 00:19:32.680It wasn't Gollum's fault, but he feels that.42900:19:35.070 --> 00:19:36.730And he's also pushing back.43000:19:36.810 --> 00:19:37.970There is no easy answer.43100:19:38.050 --> 00:19:40.090But he's saying even the answer that Gollum43200:19:40.090 --> 00:19:41.590is giving sounds too easy.43300:19:41.930 --> 00:19:42.770He's correct.43400:19:43.050 --> 00:19:43.970Of course he's correct.43500:19:44.550 --> 00:19:46.750But then what are they supposed to do?43600:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.370But we get the hints that all is43700:19:49.370 --> 00:19:49.730not well.43800:19:49.830 --> 00:19:54.090Remember in the previous chapter, Sam had noticed43900:19:54.090 --> 00:19:55.390the green and the pale light.44000:19:55.510 --> 00:19:58.190We get a glimpse of the green gleam44100:19:58.190 --> 00:20:01.970when the question is asked, is it guarded?44200:20:03.390 --> 00:20:06.030And a second reading, exactly why the green44300:20:06.030 --> 00:20:06.810gleam is flashing.44400:20:07.270 --> 00:20:09.670But first reading, we're thinking that's a danger44500:20:09.670 --> 00:20:10.070sign.44600:20:10.410 --> 00:20:11.850There is some kind of guard there.44700:20:13.470 --> 00:20:17.010And Gollum also shows here, in another foreshadowing44800:20:17.010 --> 00:20:20.010of what later happens, is how he twists44900:20:20.010 --> 00:20:22.530an order to suit his purposes.45000:20:22.790 --> 00:20:26.110Another reason to distrust him, of course, which45100:20:26.110 --> 00:20:28.230both Frodo and Sam are well aware of.45200:20:28.730 --> 00:20:31.010Because he says he was given an order45300:20:31.010 --> 00:20:34.530when he left Mordor to seek the precious.45400:20:35.830 --> 00:20:37.430But he goes on to say, but not45500:20:37.430 --> 00:20:38.190for the black one.45600:20:38.530 --> 00:20:40.090I didn't do it for him.45700:20:40.730 --> 00:20:43.210So we see how he can take the45800:20:43.210 --> 00:20:45.570words and twist them to his own purposes.45900:20:48.600 --> 00:20:50.340So Frodo, of course, is in this invidious46000:20:50.340 --> 00:20:52.260position where he's well aware of all these46100:20:52.260 --> 00:20:55.620doubts, but he's still got to make a46200:20:55.620 --> 00:20:56.000decision.46300:20:56.220 --> 00:20:57.800And there's a good summing up of this,46400:20:59.380 --> 00:21:00.900which lays this all out.46500:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.540I'll read it because it's worth.46600:21:03.620 --> 00:21:06.180This is what the action is in the46700:21:06.180 --> 00:21:06.480chapter.46800:21:06.700 --> 00:21:11.620It's the decision that comes after realising all46900:21:11.620 --> 00:21:13.560of the uncertainties facing him.47000:21:14.580 --> 00:21:16.860Frodo felt a strange certainty that in this47100:21:16.860 --> 00:21:19.540matter, Gollum was for once not so far47200:21:19.540 --> 00:21:22.500from the truth as might be suspected, that47300:21:22.500 --> 00:21:24.760he had somehow found a way out of47400:21:24.760 --> 00:21:27.300Mordor, and at least believed that it was47500:21:27.300 --> 00:21:28.480by his own cunning.47600:21:29.300 --> 00:21:31.440For one thing, he noted that Gollum used47700:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.180I, and that seemed usually to be a47800:21:34.180 --> 00:21:37.220sign on its rare appearances, that some remnants47900:21:37.220 --> 00:21:40.140of old truth and sincerity were for the48000:21:40.140 --> 00:21:40.940moment on top.48100:21:41.580 --> 00:21:43.480But even if Gollum could be trusted on48200:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.500this point, Frodo did not forget the wiles48300:21:46.500 --> 00:21:47.300of the enemy.48400:21:48.100 --> 00:21:51.580The escape may have been allowed or arranged,48500:21:52.220 --> 00:21:54.060and well known in the Dark Tower.48600:21:54.820 --> 00:21:57.640And in any case, Gollum was plainly keeping48700:21:57.640 --> 00:21:59.000a good deal back.48800:21:59.520 --> 00:22:00.900This is where the book feels more like48900:22:00.900 --> 00:22:04.020a spy thriller, a kind of John le49000:22:04.020 --> 00:22:05.340Carré almost.49100:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.020If you think of Gollum, he is a49200:22:09.020 --> 00:22:11.860spy, but which side is he working on?49300:22:12.540 --> 00:22:15.780Does he know the full agenda that his49400:22:15.780 --> 00:22:18.900masters has for him, knowing what he might49500:22:18.900 --> 00:22:19.300do?49600:22:20.240 --> 00:22:27.500So it's a fascinating psychology, involving both Frodo49700:22:27.500 --> 00:22:30.920analysing how to trust or not trust what49800:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.200Gollum says, plus what Gollum knows and what49900:22:34.200 --> 00:22:35.560he doesn't know and what he's hiding.50000:22:39.530 --> 00:22:43.910So when they push Gollum, he does not50100:22:43.910 --> 00:22:45.170name Cirith Ungol.50200:22:45.510 --> 00:22:49.710The translation of Cirith Ungol is Spider Cleft,50300:22:50.270 --> 00:22:54.730but the narrator does gloss that for us.50400:22:56.010 --> 00:22:58.370And it's notable that at this moment when50500:22:58.370 --> 00:23:01.810the narrator is stepping in, so the Hobbits50600:23:01.810 --> 00:23:04.490writing about this in the future, of course,50700:23:04.550 --> 00:23:08.130is one of the explanations for this backward50800:23:08.130 --> 00:23:13.810looking explanation, is a moment to connect it50900:23:13.810 --> 00:23:16.250to the other narrative which we've just left.51000:23:16.810 --> 00:23:18.930And it's the one moment in this chapter51100:23:18.930 --> 00:23:22.050where Gandalf is most present.51200:23:22.610 --> 00:23:25.610Frodo doesn't know Gandalf has survived, but we're51300:23:25.610 --> 00:23:29.630connected here to the moment when the Palantir51400:23:29.630 --> 00:23:33.750is thrown out of the of Orthanc.51500:23:35.030 --> 00:23:39.930So here, again, it's these moments where if51600:23:39.930 --> 00:23:41.790you unpack it, you're doing lots of things.51700:23:41.930 --> 00:23:43.630You're saying, this is where we are in51800:23:43.630 --> 00:23:44.490the two narratives.51900:23:44.790 --> 00:23:46.550That's how far those lot have got.52000:23:47.410 --> 00:23:49.130This is what's at stake over there.52100:23:49.670 --> 00:23:52.010But they are, in terms of Gandalf, always52200:23:52.010 --> 00:23:53.510thinking about Frodo.52300:23:55.150 --> 00:23:57.610And really Gandalf is very present in this52400:23:57.610 --> 00:24:00.070last section as Frodo makes up his mind.52500:24:01.030 --> 00:24:04.350Even with just a little dream he has52600:24:04.350 --> 00:24:07.070of him riding on an army of Oliphants,52700:24:07.210 --> 00:24:09.370he stays with Frodo.52800:24:10.750 --> 00:24:16.670And the narrator describes Gandalf thinking about Frodo52900:24:16.670 --> 00:24:19.630always with hope and pity, which are really53000:24:19.630 --> 00:24:23.610the chief values in Lord of the Rings.53100:24:23.990 --> 00:24:25.750Hope and pity and love, of course.53200:24:27.910 --> 00:24:30.130And then there's one of those beautiful little53300:24:30.130 --> 00:24:34.090sentences of the small person up against the53400:24:34.090 --> 00:24:34.750massive odds.53500:24:36.230 --> 00:24:38.730Frodo is fully aware of how inadequate he53600:24:38.730 --> 00:24:39.610is to the task.53700:24:40.570 --> 00:24:44.010When you have a hero, he shouldn't, well,53800:24:45.210 --> 00:24:46.730the ancient Greeks used to have people like53900:24:46.730 --> 00:24:47.150Hercules.54000:24:48.570 --> 00:24:51.430We have, I suppose, superheroes, but superheroes are54100:24:51.430 --> 00:24:53.350only interesting when there's kryptonite around.54200:24:53.890 --> 00:24:55.690There is no need for kryptonite with a54300:24:55.690 --> 00:24:58.830halfling because they've already got the odds set54400:24:58.830 --> 00:24:59.370against them.54500:24:59.470 --> 00:25:01.390We need to have a feeling that they54600:25:01.390 --> 00:25:02.590cannot do this easily.54700:25:03.950 --> 00:25:06.490And here he was, a little halfling from54800:25:06.490 --> 00:25:09.290the Shire, a simple hobbit of the quiet54900:25:09.290 --> 00:25:12.290countryside, expected to find a way where the55000:25:12.290 --> 00:25:15.670Great Ones could not go or dared not55100:25:15.670 --> 00:25:16.030go.55200:25:17.110 --> 00:25:22.330Remember, we're on the doorstep of Mordor, which55300:25:22.330 --> 00:25:25.870is where all that Aragorn can do in55400:25:25.870 --> 00:25:28.670a few weeks' time is march up blowing55500:25:28.670 --> 00:25:31.670his trumpets, pretending to attack one of the55600:25:31.670 --> 00:25:32.070Great Ones.55700:25:32.110 --> 00:25:33.010They can't get in.55800:25:33.090 --> 00:25:35.870It has to be the little person who55900:25:35.870 --> 00:25:36.230does.56000:25:38.290 --> 00:25:41.030And what we get as we run up56100:25:41.030 --> 00:25:45.900to this decision, which is the seesaw moment56200:25:45.900 --> 00:25:48.780in the adventure, we're going to go in56300:25:48.780 --> 00:25:50.240by the gate, we're going to try this56400:25:50.240 --> 00:25:54.120other way, and the decision is the action,56500:25:54.800 --> 00:25:58.600but we get a moment of prolonged stillness.56600:26:00.650 --> 00:26:04.430We get an overflight of an eagle looking56700:26:04.430 --> 00:26:07.750down, or an imagined eagle.56800:26:08.150 --> 00:26:11.230We see the characters from above, these small56900:26:11.230 --> 00:26:13.730characters hidden in the landscape.57000:26:15.790 --> 00:26:20.170And then following that, the Black Riders overfly57100:26:21.410 --> 00:26:22.650at altitude.57200:26:24.090 --> 00:26:26.210And the stillness is very powerful.57300:26:27.790 --> 00:26:32.450It's underlining that, it's like when you get57400:26:32.450 --> 00:26:36.430those talent shows, for example, where they're giving57500:26:36.430 --> 00:26:39.330a verdict and they run on with the57600:26:39.330 --> 00:26:41.690drumbeat saying, and the answer is, and that57700:26:41.690 --> 00:26:46.150keeps going, you suspend the decision point so57800:26:46.150 --> 00:26:47.250much to build the tension.57900:26:47.830 --> 00:26:49.730In a quieter way, this is what's going58000:26:49.730 --> 00:26:50.130here.58100:26:51.150 --> 00:26:52.790So again, when you're writing, if you've got58200:26:52.790 --> 00:26:55.370some moment where someone's declaring or deciding something,58300:26:55.490 --> 00:26:56.530don't rush your fence.58400:26:57.590 --> 00:26:59.390Spend the time to make it work.58500:27:00.710 --> 00:27:02.410And Frodo, in fact, has a couple of58600:27:02.410 --> 00:27:04.750things which helps him shift.58700:27:05.710 --> 00:27:07.510First is the arrival of the Men of58800:27:07.510 --> 00:27:07.950the South.58900:27:08.090 --> 00:27:11.590They are described very much like an Ottoman59000:27:11.590 --> 00:27:17.510army or a crusading, as in a Islamic59100:27:17.510 --> 00:27:22.330crusading army, how they would be described in59200:27:22.330 --> 00:27:25.610a medieval world or drawn in a medieval59300:27:25.610 --> 00:27:29.110manuscript with their gold rings and their dark59400:27:29.110 --> 00:27:33.610eyes and so on, and colourful, coming from59500:27:33.610 --> 00:27:34.190the South.59600:27:35.890 --> 00:27:38.410And adding to the idea of what it59700:27:38.410 --> 00:27:40.590seems as an exotic to the Northern kingdoms59800:27:40.590 --> 00:27:44.090is Sam's thought that, okay, if they're men59900:27:44.090 --> 00:27:46.230from the South, maybe they've got olyphants with60000:27:46.230 --> 00:27:46.410them.60100:27:46.810 --> 00:27:48.490Here we are very much in a medieval60200:27:48.490 --> 00:27:51.750world, because an olyphant is an old word60300:27:51.750 --> 00:27:52.570for an elephant.60400:27:54.050 --> 00:27:57.890Elephants appear in strange and wonderful forms in60500:27:57.890 --> 00:28:00.950medieval bestiaries, because people didn't know what they60600:28:00.950 --> 00:28:01.690actually were like.60700:28:02.290 --> 00:28:03.830And his poem reflects that.60800:28:04.030 --> 00:28:05.330It's the sort of, I haven't seen this60900:28:05.330 --> 00:28:06.630thing, but this is what I think they're61000:28:06.630 --> 00:28:10.590like, including such nonsense ideas that they never61100:28:10.590 --> 00:28:12.270lie on the ground or even to die.61200:28:12.590 --> 00:28:17.110It's that idea of the imperfect knowledge of61300:28:17.110 --> 00:28:18.810something you're hearing about in a kind of61400:28:18.810 --> 00:28:21.550Chinese whispers game, where it goes from person61500:28:21.550 --> 00:28:23.170to person, you never quite know.61600:28:24.650 --> 00:28:26.610And you see that Sam is curious.61700:28:26.810 --> 00:28:28.270He wants to know if there's an olyphant61800:28:28.270 --> 00:28:30.910and Gollum really isn't, that's another difference in61900:28:30.910 --> 00:28:31.490their character.62000:28:32.730 --> 00:28:36.170But Sam's openness and excitement about the world62100:28:36.170 --> 00:28:40.710and his recitation of what is a shyer62200:28:40.710 --> 00:28:45.070poem in this most unshyer-like, unfunny situation62300:28:45.070 --> 00:28:48.610is what prompts laughter and laughter is said,62400:28:48.710 --> 00:28:51.090it released him from his hesitation.62500:28:52.590 --> 00:28:55.270The shyer and Sam helps him make the62600:28:55.270 --> 00:28:55.670decision.62700:28:56.450 --> 00:28:58.650And he goes back to the idea, which62800:28:58.650 --> 00:29:01.230is how we started in this conversation, that62900:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.930trusting Gollum for a third time will hopefully63000:29:06.930 --> 00:29:10.670produce the way into Mordor that he requires.63100:29:12.110 --> 00:29:14.050And Gollum gets the last word in this63200:29:14.050 --> 00:29:14.370chapter.63300:29:15.050 --> 00:29:18.410He says, soft and quick as shadows we63400:29:18.410 --> 00:29:19.190must be.63500:29:20.310 --> 00:29:23.530So it ends in uncertainty.63600:29:24.650 --> 00:29:27.270But we have moved on, we have made63700:29:27.270 --> 00:29:28.950the decision, we are progressing.63800:29:29.790 --> 00:29:33.270So we started having been told we arrive.63900:29:34.350 --> 00:29:36.330And now we've been told, actually, there's a64000:29:36.330 --> 00:29:39.850long way, not much further to go, because64100:29:39.850 --> 00:29:41.890the way is shut, you can't go in64200:29:41.890 --> 00:29:42.250that way.64300:29:43.450 --> 00:29:44.830And so the stillness is broken.64400:29:46.390 --> 00:29:49.890And they move on into one of my64500:29:49.890 --> 00:29:53.010favourite chapters, because they're going to reach Ithilien,64600:29:53.110 --> 00:29:55.570which is going to be a green breath64700:29:55.570 --> 00:29:58.350of fresh air after the dust and the64800:29:58.350 --> 00:30:00.690ashes and the marshes that we've been spending,64900:30:01.210 --> 00:30:03.490and the rocks that we spent the last65000:30:03.490 --> 00:30:06.330three chapters lingering in.65100:30:07.330 --> 00:30:08.790Thank you very much for listening.65200:30:13.610 --> 00:30:17.810Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast, brought to65300:30:17.810 --> 00:30:20.010you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.65400:30:20.750 --> 00:30:24.590Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun.65500:30:25.270 --> 00:30:28.170Find out about our online courses, in-person65600:30:28.170 --> 00:30:31.250stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for65700:30:31.250 --> 00:30:32.230great gifts.65800:30:32.230 --> 00:30:35.590Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find65900:30:35.590 --> 00:30:38.030your favourite podcasts worldwide.