Mammoth Rider: SJ Poyton's Long Road to Publishing

100:00:04.600 --> 00:00:07.000Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.200:00:07.220 --> 00:00:10.080Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans300:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.720and fantasy creatives brought to you by the400:00:12.720 --> 00:00:14.440Oxford Centre for Fantasy.500:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.120My name is Julia Golding and today I'm600:00:18.120 --> 00:00:20.560doing one of my favourite things which is700:00:20.560 --> 00:00:22.020talking to another author.800:00:22.720 --> 00:00:25.140So I'm delighted to introduce to the Myth900:00:25.140 --> 00:00:30.220Makers audience SJ Poyton who has just1000:00:30.220 --> 00:00:33.940written a fantastic book, middle grade book called1100:00:33.940 --> 00:00:37.620Mammoth Rider and if you're looking at this1200:00:37.620 --> 00:00:39.260on YouTube you'll see it has an absolute1300:00:39.260 --> 00:00:42.680splendid mammoth on the front and SJ1400:00:42.760 --> 00:00:44.620has a splendid mammoth sitting behind her which1500:00:44.620 --> 00:00:45.660looks like the same picture.1600:00:46.440 --> 00:00:47.420There it is.1700:00:47.880 --> 00:00:50.860So SJ how did you get to1800:00:50.860 --> 00:00:52.960the stage when you had a book published1900:00:52.960 --> 00:00:54.980because that is a long journey for most2000:00:54.980 --> 00:00:55.400people.2100:00:55.820 --> 00:00:57.100How did it happen for you?2200:00:57.780 --> 00:01:00.340Well mine was possibly longer than most people.2300:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.960So I started writing when my children were2400:01:04.960 --> 00:01:07.180coming up three and coming up to a2500:01:07.180 --> 00:01:12.460year old and when it was published a2600:01:12.460 --> 00:01:15.620few weeks ago it was two days shy2700:01:15.620 --> 00:01:17.900of my eldest 22nd birthday.2800:01:18.260 --> 00:01:21.580So it was literally 19 years.2900:01:21.980 --> 00:01:23.680So for me the journey was the same3000:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.120as bringing a child from infant to adult3100:01:27.120 --> 00:01:31.780and in that time I've written lots of3200:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.480books like 10, 12 novels, picture books, chapter3300:01:35.480 --> 00:01:39.360books in all sorts always generally all raised3400:01:39.360 --> 00:01:42.720children or YA started with YA fantasy went3500:01:42.720 --> 00:01:46.660on to the middle grade and had some3600:01:46.660 --> 00:01:47.240successes.3700:01:47.620 --> 00:01:49.380So I was a longlisted for the Times3800:01:49.380 --> 00:01:53.860Chicken House children's writing competition twice, Undiscovered Voices,3900:01:54.660 --> 00:01:58.440a load of other competition wins or kind4000:01:58.440 --> 00:01:59.860of short listings, long listings.4100:02:01.240 --> 00:02:04.120But this is the first time where actually4200:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.780the luck has gone all the way to4300:02:05.780 --> 00:02:06.600in print.4400:02:06.600 --> 00:02:10.940And so yeah, it's been a long, long4500:02:10.940 --> 00:02:15.120journey but the art of not giving up4600:02:15.120 --> 00:02:18.540has been key and having lots of supportive4700:02:18.540 --> 00:02:22.160people around me like my writer groups, Abingdon4800:02:22.160 --> 00:02:26.760Writers, Scooby, Oxford Writers, Green Pen, Golden Egg,4900:02:26.860 --> 00:02:30.520people like that has really, really helped because5000:02:30.520 --> 00:02:32.940they lift you up when you're down and5100:02:32.940 --> 00:02:35.620they celebrate you when things go well and5200:02:35.620 --> 00:02:37.760that's so important when you're doing something that's5300:02:37.760 --> 00:02:39.280more of a marathon than a sprint.5400:02:40.060 --> 00:02:43.820Yeah, so amongst that list, you mentioned Scooby5500:02:43.820 --> 00:02:46.400for those people who don't know, it's an5600:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.900acronym for the Society of Children Book Writers5700:02:49.900 --> 00:02:50.860and Illustrators.5800:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.400It has an American section, which I think5900:02:54.400 --> 00:02:56.780is where it started, but it's UK section6000:02:56.780 --> 00:02:59.100and in fact, it's one of the places6100:02:59.100 --> 00:03:04.080if someone is almost ready to publish and6200:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.160they ask me advice and they're working for6300:03:07.160 --> 00:03:08.980the younger end of the market, I always6400:03:08.980 --> 00:03:11.160say, that's a great place to go.6500:03:11.260 --> 00:03:14.480It's very professionally run and they have conferences6600:03:14.480 --> 00:03:17.080and it connects you to the industry in6700:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.860a way that your writer support group can't.6800:03:22.140 --> 00:03:25.280You sound like you had a good experience6900:03:25.280 --> 00:03:26.780through the Scooby Network.7000:03:27.060 --> 00:03:30.860Yes, so I volunteered, so I was part7100:03:30.860 --> 00:03:33.780of the conference committee for a year.7200:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.500I ran their professional series, but then ended7300:03:36.500 --> 00:03:39.120up being called the Industry Insiders, where I7400:03:39.120 --> 00:03:43.320did, I think, six different talks across the7500:03:43.320 --> 00:03:46.540year in central London, in Piccadilly, where we7600:03:46.540 --> 00:03:49.780would do a different theme each time and7700:03:49.780 --> 00:03:54.100we would have industry professionals as a panel7800:03:54.100 --> 00:03:56.640event and I chair and we would have7900:03:56.640 --> 00:03:57.520talks.8000:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.620So, yes, I was also in the Scooby8100:04:02.620 --> 00:04:05.240Oxford critique group for a very long time,8200:04:05.780 --> 00:04:09.500which is brilliant, but was also kind of8300:04:09.500 --> 00:04:12.780very humbling because we had Terry Terry, Paula8400:04:12.780 --> 00:04:20.380Harrison, Nicky Thornton, Amy Butler Green, who is,8500:04:20.560 --> 00:04:22.340and they're all bestsellers, either this side of8600:04:22.340 --> 00:04:23.520the pond or the other side of the8700:04:23.520 --> 00:04:26.440pond and it would just be like me.8800:04:29.340 --> 00:04:31.060But now you can go to the meeting8900:04:31.060 --> 00:04:32.820and say, look, everybody, I've got a fabulous9000:04:32.820 --> 00:04:33.440hardback.9100:04:33.860 --> 00:04:34.800Yeah, that's lovely.9200:04:35.260 --> 00:04:37.980So, let's turn to Mammoth Rider itself.9300:04:38.780 --> 00:04:40.500Tell us a little bit about it and9400:04:40.500 --> 00:04:41.460why you wrote it.9500:04:41.620 --> 00:04:43.720I mean, it is something where it does9600:04:43.720 --> 00:04:44.800what it says on the tin.9700:04:44.920 --> 00:04:46.620It is about mammoths.9800:04:46.620 --> 00:04:51.780So, tell us, how would you describe this9900:04:51.780 --> 00:04:52.020book?10000:04:52.500 --> 00:04:55.540Mammoth Rider, I would say, is a climate10100:04:55.540 --> 00:05:00.260change STEM action adventure story with a neurodiverse10200:05:00.260 --> 00:05:02.360own voice protagonist.10300:05:03.580 --> 00:05:06.980So, essentially, it's about three children that race10400:05:06.980 --> 00:05:10.060across the tundra to help save a herd10500:05:10.060 --> 00:05:11.720of mammoths that have been to help in10600:05:11.720 --> 00:05:13.880the battle against global warming from hunters.10700:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.660So, it's just a big adventure story, really.10800:05:19.880 --> 00:05:22.540I just wanted to create a big adventure10900:05:22.540 --> 00:05:25.840story, which kids would enjoy the reading of,11000:05:26.180 --> 00:05:29.860that was quite fast paced.11100:05:30.340 --> 00:05:32.980So, you know, a lot of children find11200:05:32.980 --> 00:05:35.120it difficult to read a book or even11300:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.440watch a film now because concentration is getting11400:05:38.440 --> 00:05:38.940smaller.11500:05:39.100 --> 00:05:41.120So, I wanted to do something exciting.11600:05:41.960 --> 00:05:44.600I wanted to do the mammoth cloning.11700:05:44.700 --> 00:05:46.280In fact, it was a book that I11800:05:46.280 --> 00:05:47.920didn't actually intend on writing.11900:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.540I was researching for a book, which was12000:05:51.540 --> 00:05:55.720again science fiction, but for YA thriller about12100:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.580Neanderthal human Chimeras.12200:06:00.360 --> 00:06:04.080And I started reading a book for research12300:06:04.080 --> 00:06:05.880called How to Clone a Mammoth by Professor12400:06:05.880 --> 00:06:10.620Beth Shapiro, which was about de-extinction science,12500:06:11.240 --> 00:06:13.700but more broadly, it was called How to12600:06:13.700 --> 00:06:15.280Clone a Mammoth, because apparently if you're in12700:06:15.280 --> 00:06:17.540that business, nobody says, when are we going12800:06:17.540 --> 00:06:19.300to see a dinosaur or a dodo?12900:06:19.520 --> 00:06:20.440They would say, when are we going to13000:06:20.440 --> 00:06:20.960see mammoths?13100:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.940So, but I discovered there was a theoretical13200:06:24.940 --> 00:06:27.480use for them, which is to help slow13300:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.180the rate of global warming.13400:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.020And also there's a place waiting to house13500:06:32.020 --> 00:06:34.640them, which is called Pliocene Park in Siberia.13600:06:35.300 --> 00:06:38.660And I just thought kids would love this.13700:06:39.180 --> 00:06:42.160And it's a good way to get kids13800:06:42.160 --> 00:06:47.180thinking about STEM solutions for climate change and13900:06:47.180 --> 00:06:47.880conservation.14000:06:48.760 --> 00:06:51.580So, I just got a bit distracted and14100:06:51.580 --> 00:06:53.840started to go down a wormhole of all14200:06:53.840 --> 00:06:55.380things mammoths, really.14300:06:55.980 --> 00:06:56.080Yeah.14400:06:56.200 --> 00:06:59.200So, just to pick up on the use,14500:06:59.860 --> 00:07:02.140how they would combat climate change, because that's14600:07:02.140 --> 00:07:05.200not an obvious connection, though it's explained in14700:07:05.200 --> 00:07:05.480the book.14800:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.180What is it that a mammoth can do14900:07:07.180 --> 00:07:09.080to the landscape that would help with that?15000:07:10.040 --> 00:07:14.280Well, mammoths were one of those cornerstone kind15100:07:14.280 --> 00:07:14.860of species.15200:07:15.760 --> 00:07:18.760And so, they can really help shape not15300:07:18.760 --> 00:07:22.420just the ecosystem, but the geography of a15400:07:22.420 --> 00:07:22.860landscape.15500:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.180There aren't very many creatures that can do15600:07:26.180 --> 00:07:26.420that.15700:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.700Humans are one, beavers are another.15800:07:30.280 --> 00:07:32.300But what they can do is just live15900:07:32.300 --> 00:07:33.520their best mammoth life.16000:07:34.060 --> 00:07:37.280So, there are areas in the Arctic where16100:07:37.280 --> 00:07:39.340there is land that has been permanently frozen16200:07:39.340 --> 00:07:40.920for thousands of years.16300:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.640Within that frozen soil, there is massive amounts16400:07:47.640 --> 00:07:50.960of methane gas, much more methane gas frozen16500:07:50.960 --> 00:07:52.500and locked in that ice than there is16600:07:52.500 --> 00:07:53.580currently in our atmosphere.16700:07:54.460 --> 00:07:58.240However, as the world warms, our ice caps16800:07:58.240 --> 00:07:58.700are melting.16900:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.160That is creating more snow in areas of17000:08:03.160 --> 00:08:05.720the Arctic where there's not been snow for17100:08:05.720 --> 00:08:06.720thousands of years.17200:08:07.140 --> 00:08:10.300The snow is blanketing that permafrost and it's17300:08:10.300 --> 00:08:13.820insulating it, which is making the permafrost beneath17400:08:13.820 --> 00:08:15.920the snow thaw.17500:08:16.420 --> 00:08:18.680And as it melts, it releases the methane17600:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.540gas back into the atmosphere, which increases the17700:08:22.540 --> 00:08:23.620rate of global warming.17800:08:24.260 --> 00:08:26.400And the way that mammoths can help is17900:08:26.400 --> 00:08:28.360by just living their best mammoth life.18000:08:28.700 --> 00:08:30.340They trudge along the tundra.18100:08:30.660 --> 00:08:32.860They clear that blanket because the food is18200:08:32.860 --> 00:08:34.340underneath that blanket of snow.18300:08:34.780 --> 00:08:39.440And with that blanket cleared, it stops that18400:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.480cycle because the permafrost stays frozen.18500:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.380And so, that nasty methane gas stays locked18600:08:46.380 --> 00:08:47.020in the ice.18700:08:47.740 --> 00:08:50.620So, it's not very obvious until you see18800:08:50.620 --> 00:08:52.600it and then you go, oh yeah, I18900:08:52.600 --> 00:08:53.780can see how that would happen.19000:08:54.260 --> 00:08:57.480You've chosen Greenland for your population, which is19100:08:57.480 --> 00:08:59.640an interesting choice at the current time.19200:09:00.720 --> 00:09:01.000Yes.19300:09:01.040 --> 00:09:02.160But yeah, let's move on from that.19400:09:03.400 --> 00:09:04.980A different way of looking at Greenland.19500:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.240So, you mentioned you had a list of19600:09:08.240 --> 00:09:11.340things at the beginning that it sort of19700:09:11.340 --> 00:09:12.100fitted into.19800:09:12.560 --> 00:09:15.540So, you had the environmental action adventure and19900:09:15.540 --> 00:09:19.680absolutely the star of the piece is the20000:09:19.680 --> 00:09:22.960mammoth herd, particularly the mammoth baby.20100:09:23.120 --> 00:09:23.900Do you say Nyala?20200:09:25.100 --> 00:09:25.500Nyala.20300:09:27.160 --> 00:09:28.440It's a secret to be told.20400:09:28.580 --> 00:09:29.780I just thought it was a pretty spelling.20500:09:30.140 --> 00:09:31.580And then somebody went, how do you say20600:09:31.580 --> 00:09:31.680it?20700:09:31.700 --> 00:09:32.880And I was like, oh.20800:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.300Because it's the sound of that creature.20900:09:37.900 --> 00:09:39.020So, imagine a sort of.21000:09:39.040 --> 00:09:40.820So, we're all around there going, I think21100:09:40.820 --> 00:09:41.780it's Nyala.21200:09:41.880 --> 00:09:44.480It was a really interesting editorial as we're21300:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.100all around there trying to work out the21400:09:46.100 --> 00:09:49.020correct way to say her.21500:09:50.760 --> 00:09:53.400Who's a rare white mammoth.21600:09:53.460 --> 00:09:56.100Is that an albino mammoth or a white21700:09:56.100 --> 00:09:56.420mammoth?21800:09:57.100 --> 00:09:58.880No, it's a white mammoth.21900:09:59.180 --> 00:10:01.180It's a particular species of.22000:10:02.900 --> 00:10:05.760Well, what they think is because they obviously22100:10:05.760 --> 00:10:08.240there's a lot of mammoths coming out of22200:10:08.240 --> 00:10:10.940the permafrost as it thaws.22300:10:11.680 --> 00:10:13.080And a lot of those still have their22400:10:13.080 --> 00:10:14.800fur on, still have their last meal in22500:10:14.800 --> 00:10:15.320their stomach.22600:10:16.300 --> 00:10:19.640But most importantly, we can get DNA from22700:10:19.640 --> 00:10:21.180them and we can study that DNA.22800:10:21.660 --> 00:10:24.540And so, our understanding of mammoths is ever22900:10:24.540 --> 00:10:26.260evolving every time we get a new piece23000:10:26.260 --> 00:10:27.220of DNA to study.23100:10:27.220 --> 00:10:29.800One of the things we do know about23200:10:29.800 --> 00:10:33.120mammoths is that their DNA sequence for hair23300:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.500colour was similar to humans.23400:10:35.220 --> 00:10:38.000So, the iconic image that you have when23500:10:38.000 --> 00:10:40.600you summoned a mammoth in your mind will23600:10:40.600 --> 00:10:41.060be brown.23700:10:43.540 --> 00:10:45.680But they could come in different colours too.23800:10:46.280 --> 00:10:48.720So, they reckon about 3% of them23900:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.560would have been lighter, blonder mammoths.24000:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.360And then the rest would have been a24100:10:56.360 --> 00:10:58.520brownie russet and a lot of kind of24200:10:58.520 --> 00:10:59.120red jeans.24300:10:59.860 --> 00:11:02.180There is no evidence either way as to24400:11:02.180 --> 00:11:03.920whether they went all the way to white.24500:11:04.360 --> 00:11:07.080But you know, it is a fantasy that24600:11:07.080 --> 00:11:07.480I'm saying.24700:11:07.520 --> 00:11:08.540Yeah, you're doing sci-fi.24800:11:08.940 --> 00:11:11.660But we do know they did come in24900:11:11.660 --> 00:11:12.340different colours.25000:11:13.400 --> 00:11:15.600We've never found one in a different colour.25100:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.360But I think, personally, if you look at25200:11:18.360 --> 00:11:24.140the natural world and any animals that were25300:11:24.140 --> 00:11:26.600born a different colour, very rarely make it25400:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.160to adulthood or even out of infancy.25500:11:29.880 --> 00:11:31.520And the amount of animals that we are25600:11:31.520 --> 00:11:32.960finding in the ice is going to be25700:11:32.960 --> 00:11:38.060a very small percentage than what actually ever25800:11:38.060 --> 00:11:39.380roamed the Earth.25900:11:39.560 --> 00:11:41.320So, I think the percentages of us finding26000:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.620one of these 3% of the ones26100:11:45.620 --> 00:11:50.600that were lighter colours is just statistically very,26200:11:50.700 --> 00:11:51.260very small.26300:11:52.940 --> 00:11:55.000But theoretically, they should have been able to26400:11:55.000 --> 00:11:55.100come.26500:11:55.100 --> 00:11:58.720Theoretically possible, which is what matters in this26600:11:58.720 --> 00:11:59.040case.26700:11:59.520 --> 00:12:01.500Because I would say that, whilst we're talking26800:12:01.500 --> 00:12:03.980about fantasy and sci-fi, it feels very26900:12:03.980 --> 00:12:04.280real.27000:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.260It feels as though this could be a27100:12:06.260 --> 00:12:09.620real life story happening in 10 years' time27200:12:09.620 --> 00:12:11.140or maybe a bit longer than that, 2027300:12:11.140 --> 00:12:11.700years' time.27400:12:12.940 --> 00:12:14.460Time for the herd to grow.27500:12:15.760 --> 00:12:18.320So, as well as the environmental theme and27600:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.560the action adventure, you mentioned it's about dyslexia,27700:12:23.300 --> 00:12:27.960dyspraxia, those issues, which you talk about at27800:12:27.960 --> 00:12:29.220the end in a very interesting way.27900:12:29.260 --> 00:12:29.860Do you want to tell us a bit28000:12:29.860 --> 00:12:31.620about that and the way the book is28100:12:31.620 --> 00:12:33.900actually set out with that?28200:12:33.900 --> 00:12:34.000Yes.28300:12:34.380 --> 00:12:37.660So, I am neurodiverse.28400:12:37.980 --> 00:12:39.880I have dyslexia, which most people know what28500:12:39.880 --> 00:12:40.780dyslexia is.28600:12:40.900 --> 00:12:43.860It is when your brain doesn't process the28700:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.720written word in the same way as neurotypical28800:12:45.720 --> 00:12:46.120people.28900:12:46.700 --> 00:12:49.340It means accessing anything which is written down29000:12:49.340 --> 00:12:50.080is difficult.29100:12:50.200 --> 00:12:51.620Learning to read is difficult.29200:12:52.240 --> 00:12:53.120Spelling is difficult.29300:12:53.380 --> 00:12:56.140I always like to describe my spelling in29400:12:56.140 --> 00:12:58.760the words of the very famous philosopher Winnie29500:12:58.760 --> 00:13:01.560the Pooh, which is my spelling is wobbly,29600:13:01.940 --> 00:13:03.320all the right letters in order.29700:13:04.960 --> 00:13:09.700But I also have dyscalculia, which is much29800:13:09.700 --> 00:13:10.540less understood.29900:13:10.900 --> 00:13:14.200Very few people know what dyscalculia is.30000:13:14.640 --> 00:13:16.840That's probably because it only affects 2%30100:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.180of the population rather than 10%, which is30200:13:19.180 --> 00:13:19.980dyslexia.30300:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.000Dyscalculia is like dyslexia but with numbers.30400:13:23.620 --> 00:13:27.600So, I can't dial a telephone number.30500:13:27.880 --> 00:13:29.460I don't know my times tables.30600:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.000Pin numbers are a disaster.30700:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.420I cannot put four pin numbers in and30800:13:34.420 --> 00:13:35.560get the right number.30900:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.300I can't tell the time on an analog31000:13:38.300 --> 00:13:41.820clock or a 48-hour digital one after31100:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.280one o'clock in the afternoon because that31200:13:43.280 --> 00:13:44.000involves math.31300:13:45.900 --> 00:13:49.240I also have something called dyspraxia, which is31400:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.180like the other two with coordination and dexterity.31500:13:52.360 --> 00:13:53.860I don't know my left and my right.31600:13:54.680 --> 00:13:55.680I'm very clumsy.31700:13:56.400 --> 00:13:58.920Now, when I was growing up, it was31800:13:58.920 --> 00:14:01.340widely acknowledged that there were issues, but because31900:14:01.340 --> 00:14:05.320I had a kind of multiple diagnosis, which32000:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.020at the time in the 80s, I don't32100:14:08.020 --> 00:14:11.700think even the educational psychologists really knew what32200:14:11.700 --> 00:14:13.620dyscalculia was.32300:14:13.920 --> 00:14:16.240So, I didn't get a diagnosis until I32400:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.020was in university.32500:14:18.040 --> 00:14:20.500And it was really, really frustrating.32600:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.460I never ever saw anyone like me reflected32700:14:24.460 --> 00:14:25.720in a book at all.32800:14:26.340 --> 00:14:28.140And it wasn't until I was an adult32900:14:28.140 --> 00:14:30.120and I was reviewing children's books and I33000:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.140was a bookseller that I started to see33100:14:33.140 --> 00:14:35.760books with dyslexic protagonists.33200:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.260Not very many, but a few.33300:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.840Some were brilliantly crafted and envisioned, like Sally33400:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.140Gardner's Maggot Moon.33500:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.360The main protagonist in that is so wonderful.33600:14:46.580 --> 00:14:47.880That's the first time I was like, oh,33700:14:47.920 --> 00:14:48.580I'm not alone.33800:14:49.200 --> 00:14:53.180But I've never seen any characters with dyscalculia33900:14:53.180 --> 00:14:55.860or dyspraxia.34000:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.820So, it was important to me to have34100:14:59.820 --> 00:15:02.120a main character that had those, but was34200:15:02.120 --> 00:15:03.360just part of who they are.34300:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.280They weren't defined or limited by it.34400:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.480It was just part of their multifaceted personality34500:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.660and to show that actually there are benefits.34600:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.280And there was certain things that come with34700:15:15.280 --> 00:15:19.680being neurodiverse, which are gifts.34800:15:20.620 --> 00:15:26.600And we deserve to be seen and reflected34900:15:26.600 --> 00:15:29.320back, but without it just being purely about35000:15:30.640 --> 00:15:31.840the neurodiverseness.35100:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.840So, to me, it was really important to35200:15:33.840 --> 00:15:34.520do that.35300:15:35.160 --> 00:15:38.180Thankfully, my publishers thought so too.35400:15:38.620 --> 00:15:41.600And they were also very lovely because they35500:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.600shared my vision to make it as readable35600:15:43.600 --> 00:15:44.160as possible.35700:15:45.000 --> 00:15:49.820So, the actual text has been done with35800:15:49.820 --> 00:15:54.380the National Dyslexia Guidelines Association guidelines.35900:15:54.740 --> 00:15:56.220So, we have dyslexia-friendly font.36000:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.540We have generous spacing.36100:15:59.500 --> 00:16:02.820And also, it's only justified to the left,36200:16:03.280 --> 00:16:05.220which means it's really easy for tracking.36300:16:06.040 --> 00:16:11.560So, it's just really super readable, which we've36400:16:11.560 --> 00:16:13.060had a lot of feedback on that people36500:16:13.060 --> 00:16:17.960are really finding this readability a benefit.36600:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.680And actually, I've done a few school events36700:16:21.680 --> 00:16:22.760now where I have to do reading.36800:16:23.300 --> 00:16:26.140I'm so grateful it's readable because it makes36900:16:26.140 --> 00:16:27.660it so much easier to read.37000:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.420I notice you use bold rather than italics37100:16:30.420 --> 00:16:30.780as well.37200:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.840That was also the National Dyslexia Association Guidelines.37300:16:35.060 --> 00:16:37.300They think it's easier than the italics.37400:16:37.700 --> 00:16:38.440And I agree.37500:16:38.780 --> 00:16:41.660Italics can be very difficult to read when37600:16:41.660 --> 00:16:42.480you're dyslexic.37700:16:42.980 --> 00:16:44.660I was a bit worried it might seem37800:16:44.660 --> 00:16:47.060a bit shouty, but actually, it's okay when37900:16:47.060 --> 00:16:47.720you read it.38000:16:48.880 --> 00:16:53.000Yeah, I think we can code switch, can't38100:16:53.000 --> 00:16:53.200we?38200:16:53.560 --> 00:16:55.700And so, you get used to it pretty38300:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.840quickly and you that's what that does, just38400:16:58.840 --> 00:17:00.020in the way we get used to speech38500:17:00.020 --> 00:17:01.920marks or no speech marks, or sometimes you38600:17:01.920 --> 00:17:03.300get a book where it's a dash rather38700:17:03.300 --> 00:17:04.920than a speech mark, and you just go,38800:17:05.079 --> 00:17:09.220okay, that's the rules within this particular book.38900:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.240So, as you say, it's really important to39000:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.940have a character who has the condition without39100:17:16.940 --> 00:17:19.980it being a book about a dyslexic child39200:17:19.980 --> 00:17:20.960or whatever it is.39300:17:21.079 --> 00:17:22.079That isn't the issue.39400:17:22.180 --> 00:17:24.920The issue is the When you're looking at39500:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.820fantasy more generally, what would you say were39600:17:27.820 --> 00:17:31.300the writers who deal with people of diverse39700:17:31.300 --> 00:17:33.400conditions best?39800:17:33.500 --> 00:17:35.600You mentioned the Sally Gardner, but is there39900:17:35.600 --> 00:17:36.120others?40000:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.720I was thinking that what came to my40100:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.180mind as you were talking was, of course,40200:17:40.320 --> 00:17:44.640the Percy Jackson books.40300:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.640He's dyslexic and he's hardwired for ancient Greece.40400:17:49.280 --> 00:17:52.140Yeah, I love that, actually.40500:17:52.340 --> 00:17:54.140That was because it was such a positive40600:17:54.140 --> 00:17:55.280way of doing it.40700:17:56.280 --> 00:17:58.240You really turned it into a skill.40800:17:59.080 --> 00:18:00.200Yeah, it was brilliant.40900:18:01.120 --> 00:18:06.780And Sally Gardner's Magnet Moon was brilliant because41000:18:06.780 --> 00:18:13.460she is also dyslexic in its own voice.41100:18:13.740 --> 00:18:16.160She got all of the other little things41200:18:16.160 --> 00:18:20.960right, like having the same knot in his41300:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.480school tie that he would have for like41400:18:23.480 --> 00:18:25.200three or four years, like pulling it up41500:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.000and down because he couldn't tie a tie.41600:18:28.080 --> 00:18:32.440And all the little things that people that41700:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.760don't live it don't really realise is part41800:18:35.760 --> 00:18:37.000and parcel of it.41900:18:37.480 --> 00:18:39.040A lot of people will say to me,42000:18:39.380 --> 00:18:43.200but grammar isn't an issue with dyslexia because42100:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.020my grammar is awful, or was when I42200:18:46.020 --> 00:18:46.920first started writing.42300:18:47.760 --> 00:18:48.820And they're right.42400:18:49.020 --> 00:18:51.500Actually, it shouldn't affect grammar.42500:18:52.080 --> 00:18:55.120But if, for instance, you are still on42600:18:55.120 --> 00:18:56.860Biff and Chip books or, in my day,42700:18:56.980 --> 00:19:00.360Peter and Jane books when you're 13, you42800:19:00.360 --> 00:19:02.760don't get the grammar lessons because you are42900:19:02.760 --> 00:19:06.240pulled out of lessons to try and teach43000:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.240you to read the basics of reading.43100:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.820So, it's not an actual symptom of the43200:19:12.820 --> 00:19:16.600neurodivergeness, but it is an indirect one because43300:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.300you miss massive amounts of learning.43400:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.200So, yes, Sally and Gardner was good.43500:19:24.380 --> 00:19:25.600Oh, I'm trying to think of other.43600:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.660You know, I think it's still an underserved43700:19:30.660 --> 00:19:32.700part of the population.43800:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.820And I was trying to think of adult43900:19:37.820 --> 00:19:41.140material, as in YA and adult material.44000:19:41.420 --> 00:19:43.560I can't think of any.44100:19:43.840 --> 00:19:45.440It'd be really interesting to find out if44200:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.420that concern, which people, when they're thinking about44300:19:48.420 --> 00:19:50.260children, are thinking about learning to read.44400:19:50.600 --> 00:19:52.700So, it might be something you put in.44500:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.480But what about an adult space captain?44600:19:57.900 --> 00:19:59.520You know, I'd love to see it where44700:19:59.520 --> 00:20:01.720it's just an ordinary thing to mention amongst44800:20:01.720 --> 00:20:03.140all the other things that happen.44900:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.500And there's a TV show where the main45000:20:07.500 --> 00:20:09.260character is dyslexic.45100:20:09.820 --> 00:20:11.620And that's a murder mystery one.45200:20:11.720 --> 00:20:13.240I think it's the Chelsea Detective.45300:20:13.860 --> 00:20:14.000Oh, okay.45400:20:14.100 --> 00:20:14.620Yeah, yeah, yeah.45500:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.160The main character's got dyslexia.45600:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.120And then, oh, obviously, I've not read the45700:20:19.120 --> 00:20:21.920books, but I have watched the TV show45800:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.560because I lived while the TV show was45900:20:24.560 --> 00:20:24.740on.46000:20:24.780 --> 00:20:26.140So, I don't know how anybody got away46100:20:26.140 --> 00:20:28.520without watching it, which is Jamie Lannister in46200:20:28.520 --> 00:20:31.860Game of Thrones, who is dyslexic and his46300:20:31.860 --> 00:20:34.280father really takes it out on him because46400:20:34.280 --> 00:20:37.100he doesn't understand why he's not good at,46500:20:37.320 --> 00:20:38.040academically.46600:20:39.700 --> 00:20:41.700So, it's a rather dark example, but it46700:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.500is a rather dark example.46800:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.680But it is the only one I can46900:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.100come to, that I can think of, which47000:20:49.100 --> 00:20:52.200is, yeah, definitely an adult kind of fantasy47100:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.780person with dyslexia specifically.47200:20:55.160 --> 00:20:55.260Yeah.47300:20:55.760 --> 00:20:55.920Yeah.47400:20:57.140 --> 00:20:59.960So, what's your plans going forward?47500:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.660I'm currently writing book two.47600:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.460Well, book two first draft is done.47700:21:07.040 --> 00:21:10.740My edits for book two, very brilliantly timing47800:21:10.740 --> 00:21:14.120wise, came in the day after the launch47900:21:14.120 --> 00:21:14.620party.48000:21:15.020 --> 00:21:16.960So, I've got in at one o'clock48100:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.060in the morning, got up, did a course,48200:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.280a publishing course I'd been put on in48300:21:21.280 --> 00:21:24.020the morning, and then in came the edits,48400:21:24.120 --> 00:21:24.580of course.48500:21:24.980 --> 00:21:26.720So, I'm doing the edits on book two48600:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.460at the moment, which is in the same,48700:21:28.860 --> 00:21:30.420is the sequel to Mammoth Rider.48800:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.420So, there'll be more mammoths and a few48900:21:33.420 --> 00:21:35.000surprises that I can't really speak out.49000:21:35.040 --> 00:21:36.440Does it have a title or is it49100:21:36.440 --> 00:21:37.080a working title?49200:21:37.100 --> 00:21:38.320No, no title yet.49300:21:38.760 --> 00:21:41.580I like to call it MR2, which sounds49400:21:41.580 --> 00:21:44.920like a sports car from the early 90s.49500:21:46.080 --> 00:21:47.160Or a COVID jab.49600:21:47.940 --> 00:21:48.160Yeah.49700:21:49.480 --> 00:21:50.980Well, all the best with that.49800:21:51.400 --> 00:21:53.220So, let's have some fun with the idea49900:21:53.220 --> 00:21:56.280of, I guess it's a bit Jurassic Park,50000:21:56.400 --> 00:21:56.840isn't it?50100:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.360You referenced Jurassic Park in the afterward to50200:22:02.360 --> 00:22:02.980your books.50300:22:03.500 --> 00:22:05.040Was that a big influence on you in50400:22:05.040 --> 00:22:08.200thinking of this sort of, or maybe Jurassic50500:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.560Park has influenced the people thinking it'd be50600:22:10.560 --> 00:22:12.480great to have a park for mammoths, which50700:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.400then you found and then thought, oh, well,50800:22:15.400 --> 00:22:16.380if I'm going to write about mammoths, it50900:22:16.380 --> 00:22:17.360could have been that way around.51000:22:17.940 --> 00:22:18.500I don't know.51100:22:19.240 --> 00:22:24.180So, when I was writing it, I was51200:22:24.180 --> 00:22:29.560mostly thinking of the science and the race51300:22:29.560 --> 00:22:32.680to clone mammoths.51400:22:34.420 --> 00:22:36.960And the Pliocene Park, which is in Siberia,51500:22:37.340 --> 00:22:41.240where they're already taking extant animals.51600:22:41.360 --> 00:22:43.400Animals exist today that used to be in51700:22:43.400 --> 00:22:43.880the tundra.51800:22:44.520 --> 00:22:46.180They are putting them back in the tundra51900:22:46.180 --> 00:22:47.900to do the same jobs that mammoths would.52000:22:48.420 --> 00:22:50.260And they're having some positive results with that.52100:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.860But they would like something bigger, because mammoths52200:22:54.860 --> 00:22:58.180can obviously clear that blanket much quicker.52300:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.560But they can also do something which the52400:23:01.560 --> 00:23:04.060other animals can't, which is they can uproot52500:23:04.060 --> 00:23:04.660trees.52600:23:05.060 --> 00:23:06.480Now, one of the big issues in the52700:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.780Arctic at the moment is there are more52800:23:08.780 --> 00:23:11.120trees coming north of the taiga, which is52900:23:11.120 --> 00:23:16.160that kind of forest that is the butter53000:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.720between the Arctic and further south.53100:23:19.320 --> 00:23:21.900And that's because it is warming, temperatures are53200:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.000warming, so trees are growing further north into53300:23:24.000 --> 00:23:24.520the tundra.53400:23:24.640 --> 00:23:28.820But as they do that, their roots obviously53500:23:28.820 --> 00:23:30.180are warm because they're living.53600:23:30.840 --> 00:23:35.460And that also melts the permafrost.53700:23:35.580 --> 00:23:37.540So, it's probably the only time you'll hear53800:23:37.540 --> 00:23:41.740take trees out to help with usually it's53900:23:41.740 --> 00:23:42.460plant trees.54000:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.160But when it comes to the Arctic, you54100:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.860want to take them out.54200:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.200And mammoths could do that.54300:23:48.320 --> 00:23:49.980But I was thinking more of that.54400:23:50.060 --> 00:23:52.180But then when I started to think, how54500:23:52.180 --> 00:23:55.600do you explain these big concepts to children?54600:23:56.660 --> 00:23:58.560I was like, why am I panicking about54700:23:58.560 --> 00:23:58.760it?54800:23:58.800 --> 00:24:01.160Most children have seen Jurassic Park.54900:24:01.740 --> 00:24:04.360It is the same kind of thing.55000:24:05.180 --> 00:24:10.620And then I thought of a fantastic book55100:24:10.620 --> 00:24:13.840from the 70s, which I came to when55200:24:13.840 --> 00:24:17.080I was very young via the 1981 animated55300:24:17.080 --> 00:24:21.220adaptation of the book, which is Mrs. Frisbee55400:24:21.220 --> 00:24:21.920and the Rats of Nîm.55500:24:22.520 --> 00:24:27.640And that obviously is, well, not obviously, if55600:24:27.640 --> 00:24:28.700you've not read it, you won't know.55700:24:28.820 --> 00:24:30.340But for people that have read it or55800:24:30.340 --> 00:24:34.360watched the film, it's about genetically engineered mice,55900:24:34.540 --> 00:24:36.720where the National Institute of Mental Health of56000:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.640Nîm have taken street rats and they have56100:24:39.640 --> 00:24:40.700changed their genetics.56200:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.740So, their intelligence and their lifespan is more56300:24:43.740 --> 00:24:45.040similar to humans.56400:24:45.760 --> 00:24:48.320The rats have escaped Nîm after them.56500:24:48.440 --> 00:24:49.900And all the rats want to do is56600:24:49.900 --> 00:24:53.500live an eco-friendly life in the mountains56700:24:53.500 --> 00:24:54.680away from humans.56800:24:55.960 --> 00:25:00.240So, I think the two books, Mrs. Frisbee56900:25:00.240 --> 00:25:02.380and the Rats of Nîm and the book57000:25:02.380 --> 00:25:05.460version of Jurassic Park, I love the films,57100:25:05.460 --> 00:25:09.040but the book is better, really then started57200:25:09.040 --> 00:25:10.840to get me to think how you could57300:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.640explain it to children.57400:25:11.900 --> 00:25:15.700Although children or adults do not get your57500:25:15.700 --> 00:25:16.960children to read Jurassic Park.57600:25:17.120 --> 00:25:17.760It's an adult's book.57700:25:17.840 --> 00:25:18.480It's very scary.57800:25:19.080 --> 00:25:20.360It's not like the film.57900:25:20.940 --> 00:25:21.060Yeah.58000:25:21.340 --> 00:25:24.060I often refer to something as Jurassic Park58100:25:24.060 --> 00:25:24.720rules.58200:25:26.120 --> 00:25:28.460I've been using that terminology about something I'm58300:25:28.460 --> 00:25:29.240writing at the moment.58400:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.020By what I mean is, don't worry, none58500:25:33.020 --> 00:25:34.080of the children are killed.58600:25:34.700 --> 00:25:36.680It's just adults who need killing who get58700:25:36.680 --> 00:25:36.960killed.58800:25:37.340 --> 00:25:39.920But it sounds like that's a rule only58900:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.660seen in the film.59000:25:41.840 --> 00:25:44.100No, the children do survive in the books.59100:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.780But they are the only ones that survive59200:25:46.780 --> 00:25:47.340in the books.59300:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.320So, in the books, the people that die59400:25:52.320 --> 00:25:54.040are the ones that survive in the film59500:25:54.040 --> 00:25:54.560and vice versa.59600:25:54.820 --> 00:25:55.680It's really weird.59700:25:56.520 --> 00:25:58.040Books are much better though.59800:25:58.820 --> 00:26:00.960I love the books.59900:26:01.280 --> 00:26:04.480Not maybe as easy to read, but I60000:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.200read them over a very, very long time.60100:26:06.420 --> 00:26:07.860They are really good.60200:26:08.520 --> 00:26:10.100And what I appreciated at the end of60300:26:10.100 --> 00:26:11.920your book, which I think would be really60400:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.580good for someone, a child who's quite, I60500:26:15.580 --> 00:26:16.940don't like all this fiction stuff.60600:26:17.040 --> 00:26:17.580I like fact.60700:26:17.800 --> 00:26:19.740Because at the end, you're talking about the60800:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.380factual basis behind the story.60900:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.900And you're also talking about the questions like,61000:26:25.980 --> 00:26:27.080should we do this?61100:26:27.380 --> 00:26:29.760You don't answer the question, you raise the61200:26:29.760 --> 00:26:31.620question and say, well, what do you think,61300:26:31.840 --> 00:26:34.060child reader who's just finished the book?61400:26:34.660 --> 00:26:38.120So, I'm going to make you break your61500:26:38.120 --> 00:26:41.920own careful scientific approach here because I'm going61600:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.560to ask you to consider reintroducing to an61700:26:45.560 --> 00:26:48.180area of the world of your choice, maybe61800:26:48.180 --> 00:26:48.940your own backyard.61900:26:48.940 --> 00:26:53.420A, imagine we're in all the fantasy worlds,62000:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.940which fantasy creature would you like to reintroduce62100:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.560into the world if you could, when you're62200:27:00.560 --> 00:27:02.000a mad scientist white coat?62300:27:02.820 --> 00:27:07.180Well, I really like a dragon.62400:27:08.280 --> 00:27:09.880I love a dragon.62500:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.280I used to collect them when I was62600:27:11.280 --> 00:27:11.620a kid.62700:27:11.620 --> 00:27:14.400So, it would always be a dragon for62800:27:14.400 --> 00:27:14.680me.62900:27:15.480 --> 00:27:20.120And I think into the atmosphere, and a63000:27:20.120 --> 00:27:22.960massive dragon that he doesn't breathe out fire,63100:27:23.460 --> 00:27:25.860but its breath heals the ozone layer.63200:27:26.280 --> 00:27:27.500So, how about that?63300:27:28.280 --> 00:27:31.360A mammoth, not a mammoth, a dragon that63400:27:31.360 --> 00:27:32.520helps save the planet.63500:27:32.900 --> 00:27:33.900That's what I would do.63600:27:34.400 --> 00:27:34.580Yeah.63700:27:35.080 --> 00:27:37.840I also think dragons would be excellent, but63800:27:37.840 --> 00:27:41.720I'm thinking more on the domestic scale.63900:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.120I probably, if you were growing up roughly64000:27:46.120 --> 00:27:47.320the same time as me, there was a64100:27:47.320 --> 00:27:52.560very lovely animation called Ivor the Engine set64200:27:52.560 --> 00:27:54.220in Wales about a steam engine.64300:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.860It's beautifully illustrated, but because it's in Wales,64400:27:59.960 --> 00:28:01.440of course, they've got dragons, but these dragons64500:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.020are like little ones who are hatched in64600:28:04.020 --> 00:28:06.380the firebox of the steam engine.64700:28:06.840 --> 00:28:07.980So, I rather like the idea of just64800:28:07.980 --> 00:28:08.480a little one.64900:28:08.660 --> 00:28:09.880I've written a book with a little dragon65000:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.220in it, and I think that's me getting65100:28:11.220 --> 00:28:15.040my Ivor the Engine love out of me65200:28:15.040 --> 00:28:15.440somehow.65300:28:16.940 --> 00:28:17.420Yeah.65400:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.840So, thank you so much, SJ, for joining65500:28:19.840 --> 00:28:22.640us, and all the best with Mammoth 2,65600:28:23.600 --> 00:28:24.580the greater adventure.65700:28:25.600 --> 00:28:27.980And it's so lovely to hear that after65800:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.680such a long journey, you've managed to get65900:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.060to the point where you've been published, which66000:28:34.060 --> 00:28:36.380I think may encourage many people who listen66100:28:36.380 --> 00:28:38.140to this who are similarly on their long66200:28:38.140 --> 00:28:38.460trek.66300:28:39.240 --> 00:28:40.360So, thank you very much.66400:28:41.160 --> 00:28:42.920Thank you very much for having me.66500:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.980It's been wonderful.66600:28:49.100 --> 00:28:52.860Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought66700:28:52.860 --> 00:28:55.260to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.66800:28:56.860 --> 00:28:59.820Visit oxfordcentreforfantasy.org to join in the fun.66900:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.420Find out about our online courses, in-person67000:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.500stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for67100:29:06.500 --> 00:29:07.520great gifts.67200:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.840Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find67300:29:10.840 --> 00:29:13.280your favourite podcasts worldwide.