The Rings of Power Livestream

Hopefully we have now all managed to get to watch the rings of power because there will be a couple of spoilers in this. So Paula would you like to just briefly say who you are and where you fit in your expertise on talking? Hi, I'm Paula Calmars. I also write under the name of PM Amaris. I'm an author, publisher, writer, token, fanatic. And I began my quest with Tolkien when I was very young. I moved from Narnia into Middle Earth, as I said earlier. I teach a class for Case Western Reserve University on Tolkien. And we'll be doing a Narnia class, I hope, in the spring. But right now, my whole Tolkien class has been very involved in the first two books. And we're just about to start Return of the King. But many of them were starting to watch the, we're starting to watch the rings of power. And Jacob's here. So yay. And so hopefully some of them showed up today. If not, I'm really. I'll set this as homework so that we can just before they do. We're spending a whole week on the appendices. So it should be an interesting week. Fantastic. And Jacob, we'd like to say, sorry to bounce you into this, but you'd like to briefly say what your expertise on Tolkien is. Right. Yeah. So, um, I think it's an enthusiast of scholar of Tolkien presented a number of different conferences academically creatively. I'm involved with some Tolkien related games. My profession. So right now, I'm currently a narrative designer and project manager for games at Ravensburg or North America. So we got both ends of the kind of the game and the kind of like more creative end of things as well as the academic end of things. So I kind of walk between two worlds there. Brilliant. And my name is Julia Golding. I'm an author. And Tolkien is using asked and I run the Oxford Center for fantasy. And we've been looking forward to the rings of power because we always want. Enjoy seeing new expressions of creativity coming forward. But this is very much meant to be a session where you can put in your views and get your views out there. So we've discovered that the Q&A tab works. So do put your thoughts in there as we go along. But the first part of this is going to be just like an overview. So you clock whether or not you agree with our views as we go along. And we'll do that for 20 minutes to 30 minutes and then the rest of it will be for you to ask questions or give your views on what they have done over Amazon Prime. So just to say, first of all, at the Oxford Center for fantasy, our approach isn't to say they didn't do this and this isn't. This isn't in Tolkien. That's not how we're going. I'm sure there you've had a chance to read the experts on that. Looking at it more as the question is looking at it as creatives. How did they do, you know, seeing that they're going to not, you know, they've got their own set of rules they're following. How did they do within that rules. I feel very quickly just for those of you who are interested in help what the gap is between what Tolkien sketched out for the second age and what they actually did with just going to give the headlines of where the differences were. Just to see what choices they made as creatives. So Paula, why don't you start on timeline and Jacob and I'll ask you about characters. So Paula, you, first of all, hit off on timeline. Timelines all off. The timeline of the second age is much longer and they've condensed it so much that I think in some ways, they've, you know, by putting people who are a thousand years down the line in the middle of the story, such as the sildar, you kind of lose the sense of, the drama that it took for all of these, these different forces to come together to oppose Sauron. And again, you've got, it truncates the impact in some ways as to how, how everything is, is moving forward. And you know, they're going to put it over five seasons, but it's kind of like making three movies out of the habit. You just, you stretch where you shouldn't necessarily stretch and you, you shrink where it might have been better if things have gone on a little more. So just to give some dates on that, if you look at the dates, you've got the making of the rings is the equivalent of the 1500. So looking at English history, that's the time of Henry the eights and the tutors. And the time of the fall of Numenal and those characters at the end, the last generation in Numenal is in the 3000. So that's like Star Trek centuries. Yeah, that's how I've been telling it myself. No, well, I think there's a good description of it. So you're missing 2000 years of some very significant events. But the reason they've done that is obvious, which is you can't make a program where, which have the human drama and the elf drama separated by 3000 years. So they've, they've done the job of moving it like that. And that's a choice, which they can be criticized for, but you can see. Oh, I can see it. I just why they chose it. Yeah, okay, over to you, Jacob, for characters. What if they, which characters are kind of talking us and which ones are free styling? Yeah, that's a good, that's a good question. Again, like that, the issue of a creative adaptation every adaptation is a translation and interpretation. So it's never going to be perfect, right, between any, any two or else it would be the thing itself. So it's, it's broke. We recognize that it's, it's different. And I really like the approach of the Oxford Center for Fantasy, which is looking at this as a creative whole, right. But what they're doing with this kind of inspired by. So I think, yeah, going along with the, with what's already been mentioned by Paula with the timeline. So you have with the Dorans, right. So during three and during four, you don't have, according to talk right, you don't have a two Dorans that are happening in the same place because there's this idea that possibly it's the same Doran that's kind of being perhaps re incarnated or coming back or this legend perhaps. So you never have two Dorans at the same time. And so putting those two together is, you know, departs wildly from Tolkien. I understand from a creative aspect, the sort of drama that that creates that's kind of necessary for raising stakes and tension. So that's one of the, I think, big ones that you can see pretty easily. One of them that I, you know, I just love Finrod as a character so much and to see. Finrod just kind of relegated to a background character and, you know, just used as gladrails motivation, right. So Finrod, brother of gladrail. And then all Finrod's entire story, right, and really responsible for building initial relationships between humans and elves. And then the incredible arc that he has in the story that he has with his own death as this incredibly heroic death and then the silver. Of course, they don't have the, you know, the, the charoners and the show itself doesn't have access to they can't use those stories in the silver early. And so they're kind of it's almost it seems like it's they have here's what you have available is what's inside Lord of the Rings and the appendices in terms of what's in the middle, you know, the second age. And so what can you tease out from those sources and have to go with those well trying to sneak in some of the silver early and stuff, but for legal reasons they can't. So it's almost it's this really strange tricky adaptation that's not really able to adapt all of Tolkien's work as a whole, but just take kind of bits and pieces. So I understand the difference that they have there. They can't pull in all of that information about Finrod, but just as it's somebody who. Really likes Finrod as a character in the bigger narrative that the fanboy. Yeah. So I think just outline who's who's talking I'm only very briefly. So collateral is clearly talking, but is given a role, which isn't mentioned by talking, should we say. And the Elrond, obviously, we know is is is there. Killer Brimble and Gil Gallagher, they're all in talking, but then we start moving over to invented characters. So nori brand brandy foot. And that's an invention, though the half of us are mentioned as the proto hobbits and the. And a rondia and Bronwyn are inventions in order to show the Southlands and. Miriel, who is the queen of Numino possibly may morph into her version of her that is in the Silmarillion, but at the moment she is. Much more of a bodiceer fighting queen aspect than is in talking so the name exists, but the character is different. So anyway, as I said, we aren't here to do the purest thing of saying, you know, because that's not what they that's not the choices they were making they were looking at this thing here's talking to material, what kind of story can we tell. So we're going to look at this, first of all, from the script. We're going to look at the overall story arc. So if you haven't seen the last episode, you might want to la la la at the first bit this conversation, then we're going to have a look at some favorite episodes. Then we're going to turn to look at performances, then we're going to look at world creation and at the end will give a grand verdict I mark out of five and. Then we'll go over to you and we pick up some of your comments and read them out and encourage you to discuss in the chat. Okay, which is actually the Q&A apparently sorry we're using this zoom events thing for the first time so it's having a few teething troubles which I apologize for. Okay, first of all, let's briefly try and keep comments fairly brief so we have time to go round. What did you think of the overall story arc, Paula. I did not find it objectionable. Okay, that's fine. I did find some aspects to it. I did both the other thing I teach, I did find some aspects of it to be a little off putting a primarily because of the way I've read Tolkien all of my life that that especially when we get to the proto hobbits. While the hardwoods are an interesting group of people and they are you know the performances are nice and noria is adorable but my only thing was that the habits have been sheltered for all of these centuries and it was billbow who came out to start the adventures and now suddenly thousands of years earlier. The habits are suddenly very proactive in in assisting the stranger and I thought that was a little in a little on the three norms, the anti-norings or whatever they are where we're a little that bothered me for some reason. Okay, so it wasn't completely at first, but there were elements which kind of rubbed you up the wrong way. I think from a narrative standpoint, it was pretty straightforward arcs they had for each of the characters right they clearly had several different groups that they are following and then you know tracking them. I thought character arcs were decent pretty easy to follow there was kind of it seemed to be a pretty long set up though I didn't find myself like really there's continually kind of rising tension but that really didn't come in I didn't find myself really kind of finding myself really caught up in the story until that episode five or so. It was when I really started caring I think so I think the set up and wind up was a little bit long I see kind of what they kind of had to do but just kind of from a normal typical narrative standpoint slow slow in the beginning all hard to get into a little long getting into kind of act to. But I thought it came full circle did a good job of automatically bring it back full circle so kind of as a story as a single season telling a single story with the creative decisions that they made but just taking those those different arcs different tensions different questions I thought they did a good job I was able to follow it and thought it was a good straightforward story. And remember everybody we're talking about this not as imagine talking doing it as the choices made by these these screen people. Okay, so here's my view this is where I'm sort of feel I'm got the strongest. I'm you know outside from the sort of talking knowledge this is where I feel that is my area is writing that script I felt what we've got here I'm going to use the metaphor of tapestry threads we have the single threads. Of all of the story lines and we have Galadriel we have Elrond and Galadriel and Elrond touch and Elrond and the wallstarch then we've got we've got Bronwyn and Elrond here we've got the Hobbits and we've got the people down in Numenor and Halbrand. The odd thing is that it wasn't woven together very well so one of those threads the the Hobbit threads just kind of floated on its own and they could have done some very clever things where you saw them in relation to the other characters. I didn't get I didn't understand why they didn't bring it together so they did bring some of the threads together but they would just drop them so the last episode. There was no Bronwyn and arrondia and there was no what happened is older and there was no dwarfs so it kind of. For me the knitting together was where it felt apart as a story arc and I was actually thinking you know what they could have looked at Lord of the Rings and thought how do you do multiple story threads well you know what you start with one thread and then you split it to connect them and then split them right. I was expecting them to bring them all into a beautiful sort of pattern at the end and they kind of didn't so for me where I think they could have spent a bit more money in this very expensive production is actually really working through how to tell a story because I think they made some basic rookie errors on the sort of managing of multiple story threads. And I think what Jacob was talking about the difficulty of caring is to do with the fact that they had started with this ambitious canvas and didn't quite weave it together so that's what I felt okay so let's look at it episode by episode there were some good bits they have a phrase here curious egg and it's an old fashioned phrase which means good in parts so. I've got lots of things I would you know say yay that was fun to watch and but let's start with what's up with you Jacob this time which of your which are the episodes worked for you. Or sequence within an episode you have yeah really I think the relationship between Elrond and Dorin when that came up that's when I found myself kind of most interested and invested right that did a good job of. Spending time with them it was odd right that in any time we saw the elves right in linden it's almost like a ghost town right you see like a few people there's not a sense that there's really much of a culture there or maybe it's a holiday I don't know exactly but so like you saw some of that more I think in. With the dwarves right in Moria and so I but so I they could have just like you know focused on the big everything that's happening I think they did that a little bit more in new menorah where there's a sense of you know a population but I really like them kind of focusing in in spite of not having as many background characters for that role I thought that was a storyline that I found myself like with Disa right Dorin's wife weaving in there she does fantastic so I think of all the relations. That was the one that I found myself most invested in in the narrative. I agree I found this and Dorin probably the most compelling of all of them and I loved her. That was brilliant she was so terrific and I mean in what is it episode seven she when she's talking to him after his father has completely shot him down and her fire and her passion just strengthens him and it just was probably one of the best scenes that I saw in the entire thing is the scenes and her relationship to Elron. I get off the table sorry I just found her I found her compelling I loved her I thought she was one of the best created characters I know no we never saw dwarf women in in Tolkien but at least they did the right thing with you so. Yeah so I agree with you completely Jacob about the emptiness of. Lyndon and somebody pointed out that is one of the if if if not is here on the chat Nancy who is one of our students from the officer center for fantasy she said did you notice that there were no women no faces of women that the the else were attended by these ladies with veils over their faces it was very odd because else of women are you know. So that was a bit strange anyway I think that for me some of the. Momentum did get going in six and seven. In terms of like episodes they felt quite you know crunchy episodes with things happening. What I found strange was the timing of things though because the big battle with bronwyn and rondia and what have you which ended episode seven. So that meant that the events of episode eight the making of the three rings kind of and the twist about who is sour on kind of happened really quickly. And it did feel a bit dislocated though I liked the I liked the who sour on storyline but I kind of felt that could have actually run up for a little bit longer to us really start asking the question more clearly but I like that. The way it was wasn't there was some clues along the way which weren't too obvious so when there was the revelation us to who he was please learn our lot if you haven't watched it you know when how brand turns out to be sour on that's good because I've been saying to my family hang on a minute there was no king of the south. You know what's that character so I like the fact that it wasn't completely obvious that it was going to be him though well done if you're one of the people on the one of our attendees who saw that from the start I didn't. When we were watching it when he leaves the other people on the other raft to their fate alone my cousin was watching it with me said there's your bad guy. Okay well well done your cousin it was like really and then I said after he said that I just kept watching and I started I started ticking off things like he did this he did that he makes he makes he makes things in metal yes he makes things in metal and he understands all always. And they just kept building up and building up. And I thought they did a nice bit of misdirection with the anti-naurons or whatever those three women were called. Yes I didn't get who how they fit in the world did you experts where do those three androgynous women he people who turn into Moss where do they fit in in the world of talking who are they. Is this a yeah that's a we really don't know right so you do you do find out right that he's that the stranger is an Astari right so he's one of the wizards and so question is is it that obviously they're they're making all sorts of illusions visually to Gandalf right but it's not. Certain tea right that it is actually Gandalf because you have a couple of blue wizards that Tolkien mentions that were out in the east possibilities that you have there is that those two. Tolkien goes back and forth kind of on on exactly who those are what they were doing there's the possibility I think what one of his trajectories was they were like Saramon became kind of obsessed with accumulating power and ended up you know on the side of. At least morally kind of larger on the side of kind of like of Saran and Saramon probably is a bit closer parallel but he also had another trajectory was that they were trying to fight the good fight and preventing Saram from amassing an even larger army there in the east so. What you could have them doing if they are following the two blue wizards the stranger could be one of the blue wizards that is kind of maintaining a positive moral compass right there who's who can go either way there's that kind of obsession about like am I good am I peril he's kind of trying to figure that out and these others the three individuals work in white that are tracking him. They say you know he's not Saran he's the other you could either imply that they're they were looking for Saran or this other guy but there could also be the second blue wizard that arrived earlier and he had already been you know power hungry and probably that he had kind of a mast a base of cultists or whatever that are following him that he's trained in wizardly ways I don't know there's nothing that's like that those those characters are there's really those fantastic that fight towards the end like when they're kind of. Disembodied was quite striking love that imagery but yeah in terms of like what what's there really don't have anything that that I've that I get that comes to my mind of where they tie into the larger universe that talking. In the chat said they thought he was Gandalf I mean it's still you know that's a possibility it could be could be indeed yeah I love I love the the conversations going on in the chat so do do keep on that and we will come to these in a minute so just quickly us three for what it's worth we're going to look at performances so. What did you think of the main actors in the series so we've got we have to start with Moffeid Clark who is our collateral what did you think let's start with Paula she was the one who really held it together I think yeah she really did I mean she's she's the she's the only linchpin that's really going to start showing up in all these because you at least get her in a couple of two or three different settings and. Her passion is is palpable and I think she really handles that and her concept of the fighting and who gladriel is and her relationship to her brother because gladriel does leave. And follow finrod when they moved when everybody moved and. She had another two brothers as well who they've been cut the. Yeah they cut them and I like the fact that in the last episode she finally mentions keloborn. Oh yeah. Oh yeah he's been missing for I don't know how long but you know I'm still married and I thought that was like that that really they could have again I think if they gone. Nine episodes seriously and just stretched out eight to into nine and tied together some of those arcs a little more fully you know hi we made the rings okay bye. I was very tempted to start a wears wally wears keloborn meme so anyone out there got the the thing you know easy on a beach easy you know in about somewhere swimming. You know what did you think of muffy clerk. I know I never really the point where I finally where I got like some sort of connection with her as a character as an actor was really when she was talking with Hal brand. And she's trying to convince him right that you need to lead this charge the queen of numerals or queen region of new nor is going to will only do this if you are part of this will only go to help you when she said when he's saying you like what are you doing why is this why is this a big deal for you and she says like why do you fight like she says because I can't stop so it's like the most like the glimmer I think the most that I saw. Like a real personality she's she has a tall order right so she has to you have. Of Kate Lancia who who shadow you can't get out of right and that so that's where everybody's mind is taking her and so she has to kind of make this her own while also staying within certain lanes I guess of like what that character is so. And this is tough right so for for this sort of season where everything we're compressing time and else whose life spans you know are spending millennia right so that the what what does a character arc look like for. And Elf and what does that look like in a season of television right so the these are like. Inevitable tensions that you have in portraying different characters so but with that you even that that being said you have with the elves in general something with with the performance of elves it was really kind of a mixed bag right so the the Elf rifle kind of embodied more. Of like what I figured an Elvish essence to be was air and deer then I thought he might have protected that a little bit better than Galadriel and certainly more than like Gilgalad or Keleborn and some of those just like didn't didn't come off there didn't come off as Elvish kind of in their air and so. They're in a really tricky place they're in a really tricky place having to depict store you know character arc drama also differentiating themselves from humans but then what does it mean to look like and be it like an act like an Elf in comparison it's it's really stick so she I thought she was I thought she was okay I didn't find anything like incredibly compelling about her as a character I wasn't always like hanging on what she was doing when she was on screen. So please do put into the Q&A everybody what you thought of Galadriel as a performance and if you if you thought that you know she did a good job or not just it my view is that she was did a great great job with the script she was given and they were lacking on some things which didn't help her so she had a bit of one of a one note types. The script is driven thing it was wasn't that much humor and the few times she was given a bit more range in her her scenes I thought she did really well I also thought that there was some really dashed goods choreography for her fighting that she did. She did look like the only Elf who could fight I mean that first the first introductory one where they're fighting some snow troll or the others stood around and watch while she kind of did all the heavy lifting but anyway it was good. So I thought you know physically she was doing very well with what she was given which I think is quite tough my problems with the glad your character all to do with. They made she is one of the oldest people there and they made her junior to people she's not junior to and that got on my goat because why do we have to put this woman female Elf as this naughty soldier who's going beyond her remit she's much more queen you know I thought they could anyway that annoyed me but. Maybe I found her I found her relationship with the Greek kids CEO because it's a Greek name not anything close to Scandinavian i or Welsh I found her relationship and when she's hiding with him I thought she actually and she's talking about the loss and she's talking about you know how he has to be a soldier and she does it I thought that was probably one of her most. compelling moments in that she she's imparting this wisdom to this 14 year old and she gets him to rise to the occasion because when they leave he's holding that sword and he's her soldier and you just get the feeling that he's always going to be her soldier. yeah so those moments I think were. in the season yeah yeah just going to the what people are saying here I've got you and I says she found glad you're flat I think that's what Jacob was saying. Debra Debra and wants to do the caliber mean please please do. And she didn't get the emphasis on collateral yeah I mean these these are choices aren't they I think they needed a strong female character and she was there Nancy who is oh I think that's by wonderful Nancy from. who's very knowledgeable about talking and she said she thinks he actually was good but the writers made her nothing but angry all the time so there was little nuance yeah that was my problem to another flat actress great says Maria but the material subpar. you thought seriously silly choreography yeah I kind of enjoyed it but anyway zoom user i'll hate lunch it has your heart. another and on and. So that's a good point the they've asked they said there that they're interested in the long term how she will evolve into the character we see in order the rings. Elizabeth another of our students high Elizabeth and she liked glad your power imperfections. The elves are telling in the imperfections and she swam away and Andrew hello down under Andrew is just an amazing guy he always gets up for these things hope it's not too early for you he's in Australia and he thinks glad you was done well. Well given that they don't know much about the second age she has she spends most of her time one just she's not she is with kelaborn sorry kelaborn you are there actually and she is involved in the kelabrimbo in one version of it she is around but she isn't notably out with her sword drawn. So anyway as Andrew says it's plausible she could have been a fighter yeah okay right we don't want to spend too long on doing this so i'll allow you both to pick one other character to talk about and then we'll ask our. Our attendees to pick their faves and we'll give them a shout out so Jacob going to you. If you pick one character that you thought yay that's that's a good character who did you like in terms of performance now performance yeah already already mentioned during indesa so i still hold. Aside aside from there I think and what I think with tying into the gladriel conversation here is that erandir had you can tell you have this internal conflict right and I think that's what made him more compelling was this tension between. Can these two cultures I invent and competing responsibilities and so I think that allowed for his character to be more interesting in a number of ways so the again with with the gladriel that kind of one note is just this drive revenge. That there wasn't I don't know what the inner tension necessarily was there so I like I like I like erandir in terms of the elves probably best elf character. Stranger was really was really interesting character so that was one he he intrigued me as an actor right so his range you couldn't quite tell you know he was good he got angry and so just the the range that he was able to trade there the sweetness the kindness as well as the rage and so. I I thought I thought that was really interesting from an acting perspective there okay Paula who's your pick your one your desert island pick. I'm sorry. Just give me a vision there I was intrigued by the boy the young man who played all around. I mean he has a he has big shoes to fill also he has Hugo weaving he has to develop into Hugo weaving but I thought it was very interesting start with him one of the things I thought they could have talked a little more about was his brother you know the twin who chose to be human and and how he. How he reacted to that I mean his twin brother goes off and dies and he's this immortal and he's working for Gilgalad who kind of confused me because. There is no real high king over the elves each one has their own Bailey work. And suddenly Gilgalad is in charge of all of the elves and you know can exile people to Valor that was a little confusing and I'll run. Buying into that initially was confusing but his relationship with the dwarves. I thought that really set him apart that really set that actor he is. Even just the time frame when he talks about well it's only been 20 years. Yeah and that really the performance when he did that. It gave you the sense that the elves. Don't you know our lives are a blink. In their in their eyes. I'm going to give a shout out to the actor it's his name is Robert Aramayo who plays Elrond. My shout out is actually a bit of an odd one he's not he doesn't make the headliners. Though I did like a lendil who's played by Lord Owen Lloyd Owen I actually really like the bad elf. I do for a while you thought could have been saueron but actually he reminded me you see Aaron or something like that if anyone picked up his name. Sorry. Adar. Thank you. But he doesn't appear on the the headcaster of IMDB but what I really liked about him is he had. He had a motive. And he had seeing it from the bad guys side because actually when you think about what happens to walks you could say well it's kind of genocide you know when you go and killing or. And it reminded me of those books that you get which are from the point of view of the orcs you know the alternative fantasy since I actually thought that was a really interesting character though he kind of. He comes back and I liked his perspective because it kind of humanized all kinds the other side and he looked very he was the best of the male elves I thought oddly. I think no the lovely actors who played Gil Gallard and killer brimball just a tad not the bit earthly. And they're wonderful character actors. But I thought they just felt a bit errr. Anyway, please put in the Q&A who your who your fave character is and if it's different what we've said we'll give a shout out to those right so we're just going to quickly touch on world creation that thing and then we're going to give our verdict out of. And we'll take we'll look at some of the comments in the chat so I will be reading through and reading out some of your wonderful observations but don't forget to put in who you thought was your favorite. Oh carriage there she's there with or you're just taking me with the name is and Mario agrees with me about Adaf. They are Mario you and I five mind there okay so let's think about the production side of it I noticed already in the question and answers Andrew had said he enjoyed the film score which is obviously a big part of the creation of the world. Paula what did you think about you know where the money went into into the visuals and the sound and the rest of it didn't go into the script writing but it did go I thought the battle scenes were well done. I thought the volcano aspect and watching watching all of that was well done new menorah looked almost like I thought it was going to look. But the Elven kingdoms didn't. I think new menorah was quite a nice thing to see that they actually bothered to build something that could have been my ancient room it felt as though it was big enough to be a city. The Elven kingdoms just kind of. I felt they could have done more with it if nothing else as you said populate them a little more have some people walking around without little veils on and you know they could have done a lot more with that but I you know again I think with the production values this first season I think is going to be. They're testing ground they're going to see how. The responses are and they're going to see what worked and what didn't is the way I if I were producing this and I agree I think the tapestry analogy was very good because they do need to tie those threads together. But the world building it's any of the ocean was nice it was not much they could do the ships were good they they captured some of it I think they could have captured more. Okay so what they're spending. Jacob what did you want to pick out about that yeah costume costumes were insane. Well sorry I should we were we're we're we're just unbelievable i mean a good way or a good way in a good way yeah just just yeah just the the care the attention to detail. On yeah on all the costuming was just yeah was was remarkable that that stood out to me just that the cinematography as well as some of the most gorgeous shots. A match in a bowl there and the soundtrack bear McCurray has already been one of my favorite composers kind of contemporary composers and so I thought he did a really really good job so been enjoying listening to that in the background as i've been working on other things for the past. Yes sorry I gave too much credit to Howard sure he just did the theme didn't he just the thing yeah so it was Barry McCurray who did the the the base everything else yeah. So in terms of like the like the non script right the all that the set design the right the production design costumes music everything else just absolutely top notch for me that was nothing nothing. Through my attention away from there at all it just yeah in some senses at heightened what was what was there on the page. I have some costume niggles can I'm I allowed a couple of costume niggles so i worried about Bronwyn. With her bare shoulders it looked pretty cold where she was everybody else was wrapped up but she had this silhouette which was all kind of exposed and I thought. Put a scarf on love is what I thought that got to me because she was set aside from the others and and then I got a bit worried about the. Half it's because I think they were trying to give them a like a trying to make them feel shorter but they all were wearing so much. Stuff like great big clumpy skirts and the hobbits in the shire have managed to understand that you know little three quarter lengths trousers of the way to go so I found they just were really loaded down these are nomadic people but they they're carrying like. Loads of material and then they put all their grass and stuff on top of that so that really annoyed me I did like Miriel's armor. I thought a ronde is armor was interesting with the green man look on it but it looked didn't look very open it looked like it kind of been. Sawn by it looked a bit rough I don't know I he could have done a bit more polish a bit more polish and I suppose they were trying to differentiate him from the kind of Galadriel else I suppose Galadriel had a wonderful set of clothes though I did feel sorry for her having to spend the first couple of episodes wearing this semi transparent. So I had a few quibbles with the costume department but anyway I don't have anyone else on the chat wants to join with me in the in that you all if you all love it I'll shut up but just going back to the chat. And to our earlier discussion about performances I want to mention a new one that's been shouted out which have Megan Richard as poppy proud as poppy proud fellow that's quite tongue twister was admired and who else. And Saddoch burrows with somebody else somebody mentioned there in the chat that did a great job. The leader of the Harfits yes Henry who's a very well known actor here and comedian over here so did you know him in America at all. Okay well you see this is the odd thing it's like seeing I'm trying to think who would be a really famous comedian for you I mean he's like super famous and seeing it so you had to really kind of devolve him from his his profile he does all like the charity shows when they're doing public performances and yeah. So I'm glad that you liked him you see he's one of our national treasures. And yes there's another shout out for cinematography new menor and so on yeah okay. Okay so Karen saying that people and Amazon don't like criticism well tough we're criticizing you hopefully you know hopefully they will listen to feedback and and next season they will go for a better story. And yeah do you know say what is that we're putting stuff in the Harfits here it was supposed to be disguised wasn't it a mixture of disguise and culture. Yeah there was supposed to blend with the bushes and the grasses and everything as they were going along which I you kind of lost it along the way. Okay so before we go over to everybody else what is your grand verdict in fact you could say a little bit why you've given it that that that mark what is it that made you decide on that rating out of five so everybody else listening we're going to be looking at an out of five rating. Paula how about you 3.75 and why what's what's lost the 1.25 scripting. The script really the one note gladrall the lack of cohesion with the different story arcs that we're going along the lack of female elves and a lack of background characters as well. I mean the thing about the thing that's always gotten to me about Lord of rings about anything is you always had these other people there. Whether it's brief whether it's whatever you have interactions and then but you only have these little interactions these tiny little groups and they need to all. You're fighting one great evil yeah you need everyone together. How about you Jacob. I had the same exact same scores Paula written down beforehand 3.75 so think like yeah it's good it wasn't I was entirely comfortable if you're if you're so Julie if you're going to force us into just like a whole star. No no no 3.75 fine okay that's okay I was I was going to round up to 4 just because I'm generally a more generous. Critic of other people's art just because it was it was a big swing that they took it was tremendous right so it was it could have gone much worse. Yeah so I think and I agree with with with pretty much everything that that Paula said for the reason about why I didn't I couldn't comfortably give it like a 4 plus rating was just I. If my investment especially for the first half of the season was purely based on I like Tolkien I want I'm desperate to see Tolkien's world more of it as much as possible right so that's what really kept me going and then so I think the the character some of the characterization especially if you're if you're building this whole thing around gladriel really. I didn't find myself really compelled by her character and what she was was doing and so yeah that's that's my reasoning so great so I thought I did a great job almost for almost for stars happy that the glad that they did it really grateful that they did it and all those people it takes so many people to put a production like that together so just in amazement and filled with gratitude for all the people that dedicated so much time and effort and energy into making a production like that. So do start putting your scores in the chat some in the question answers some of you already are and I'm a bit meaner I think it's a three when I first started watching it I was more around a four and that was in recognition of the visual feast. I got to be about a three on it and I tell you why it's it's a story point but it was also I was so annoyed by some of the logical stupidities in it so things like gladriel jumping out of the boat. And swimming back just I just was just saying where do you think you're going you know I just felt that was and the other bit that I really annoyed me is some of the what I recall horse riding kind of over play like they had long like I'm really enjoying horse riding I didn't kind of get those moments and then the other logical floor which was Numenor sets off to save this place. With three boats okay yet it's hardly like the most grateful tiller amada coming they get there and they managed to find their way directly to this obscure village. And then you see them charging up horses again charging along with horses and they arrived just the right time I didn't get the connection between that village. Where they landed and how they found each other how they even knew and it was going on particularly because it turns out the guy who says my people in the south or sort of. Is you know playing with the other side in the in the not you know in the sense of yeah he turns out to be glad I heard so I was actually shouting at the TV not shouting not quite that bad I was telling my husband whilst we were watching it that I thought some of those things were silly and I also my other logical hate point was mithril. I know why have this we need mithril in order to make us. Defend us against the light. The decline of else as if they all need to be covered in mithril armor the logic on that really worried me and I. I'm glad they went for rings in the end because that's you know but that just. So it went from a four to a three but I enjoyed it because it's sometimes fun to watch something you don't agree with and tell your husband everything that's wrong with it. And so I was doing my first I'm trying to watch it. So I'm going to have a quick look at what you all think so Karen so Karen's given us a breakdown. Was it talking one story to look of male else one locations for fantasy shown is three so she's somewhere i'm you're about a 2.5 or something if my master's right. Your Anna says to Val who I'm high foul who I also know oh foul is it's a fan i'm really pleased that you're fine because this is not so we all agree foul thought it was 4.5 little flat in parts zoom user oh not pleased one one two stars. Like me he's where he or she is worrying about the no sense aspect. Yeah and AC. Yeah she's the rhythm aspect of that is when so our carna. Cinematography 5.5 out of 5 storyline 2 out of 5 costumes for people are separating this out which I can understand. Yeah damn nation hopefully that's a user name 2.5 out of 5 yeah you're sort of more in my area and. And you want to agrees with me on the literal. Yeah joys also worried about the horses and the boats yeah I was just really like I get kind of hooked on these things where I see something doesn't follow logically and it just gets to me. So 2.5 Lisbeth 5 for the hype yes they're marketing department did really well very well you liked our discussion thank you for the art for the mystery oh for the acting so she's generally a happy camper so that's nice. And there is just before we going to wrap up shortly but there's an interesting question here which is looking at what happens next and that perhaps will be a nice place to wrap up. I canna is saying given what we know about the direction of the story in the Silmarillion though we know they don't necessarily stick to that with respect to our Farazon and Miriel do you think they will stay true to that or go in a different direction and her comment is it's hard to tell right now. And for those of you who are not deep in Silmarillion law and the little we know about our Farazon who is the advisor with the black and white beard the badgery one that guy. And and Miriel in the book Miriel is indeed supposed to be queen but she's bumped she's usurped by our Farazon who marries her false false marriages her and the impression I always got was that she was sort of younger more vulnerable character than the one that we've seen the Miriel we've seen. Okay so Jacob what did you think did you notice the our Farazon the Farazon character. Yeah yeah yeah yeah and so that's I have a hard time in just given the contemporary discourses about consent and whatnot that like that they that they would actually choose to follow a forced marriage right with the strength of the character there to establish Miriel with her independence. I mean yeah so I can see him perhaps you know somehow taking over making an argument for the people you know nobody kneels in Newman or so it seems like they're kind of trying to establish a more kind of democratic society or something where people are more equal than not except they still have a king except but not but in active king and so having him make a play for the leader of the people. So I think so I see some kind of political kind of themes that are there going on in Newman or that could play out and that Miriel could be an obviously right that we saw in the final episode that kind of injecting more of the idea of the faithful to right the Valar and Louvert are the there's these people who are want want to be true to their heritage or kind of spiritual heritage versus her. And in connection with the elves versus those who are not and so I think that's going to play that there's going to be more conflict between the two so I have a hard time seeing. Far as on forcefully marrying Miriel and continuing that line I think there'll probably be a lot more tension maybe between two kind of systems of governance in Newman or is kind of what I would guess but I don't have a palantir so I can't say for sure. Yeah that's the other sorry another. So it will just sister looks in the Palantir and we never find out what happens sorry that was sorry i'm just having a little bit. I need to shout at something and where's his brother. He's in the west he's in the west he's in the west the west of new men are where the faithful are. Like more battling between those holdouts I think the one thing that might play into the forced marriage is that in if I recall historically. Blind disabled people could not hold the crown themselves and that might be our far as on. Method of either saying you either marry me. Or i'm just usurping you and that might be the choice that she makes is that i don't know that it's within talking you mean. But that isn't Scandinavian and that was in that in several of the in several of his background mythology. Okay well that would be really just pointing I mean because it wasn't it that the wonderful blind dose of. Venice who led the one of the the big most successful rays of Venice in during the period of the crusades which I suppose is not a great moment to. Yeah well good but you know what I mean i can be empowered figures in medieval time so i would find that a bit. Yeah there's also part of but also part of historically even the ancient pics in in Britain. Medieval history major the ancient pics could not have someone scarred or or. Mamed in any way hold the throne i mean they you know you have. Gods who lost hands and stuff and they lose their their main position so there there is a mythological background to it that could justify. Oh far far as on some you surpassing of the throne I mean it's an excuse this is I mean she's perfectly capable and it's an excuse but. If you recall in this he's already talked to his son about no no I want them to go it's going to be a good thing so he's already. I'd prefer to see her as a actually a really good role model if our if Amazon of your listening which they won't be I'd like to see if there's a good role model overcoming that and actually you know being a good leader rather than. Oh yeah and she's obviously got affection for a lendle. Which could set up a nice interesting. Fight between a lendle the faithful and. Are you surper I mean that's could be an interesting. Little fight until we figure out where is solders. So the I think what what we can say to. That question is it looks as though they are setting up the politics of a divided court in. Nomenal how they handle. Miriel's vulnerability as we say at the moment of getting used to the fact that whether or not it's permanent or not temporary blindness or permanent. She obviously means she needs people around that she can trust. And we probably can tell that our Farazon is not trustworthy so if he if where is a lendle is so that might be the. You know that it means that she's she needs to work at who to trust and maybe she trust the wrong one. That would be talking to not trust the right one to trust our Farazon and yeah. But we must wrap up because we've gone over our time thank you everybody for coming along and thank you for your lively contributions in the. In the chat and I think it's fair to say that even if we gave it one star or if we gave it 4.5. We're probably all we'll be watching season two. Most of us will be I would say just because it's so nice to see a new interpretation of Tolkien for our era and to end on a positive note I think it's really good to see diversity amongst elves and wolves. So that was nice and well done so well done them really fun to see that and definitely the strongest part I think in terms of what they're leaving behind them is changing the way we visually see those yeah those those cultures. So thank you so much everyone thank you Paula thank you Jacob. Thank you. That's all for now. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye now. Bye there. Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast. Brought to you by the Oxford Center for Fantasy. 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