The Second Age - Amazon Series Livestream (Podcast Replay)

Well hello and it's very exciting to be with you. We're live and from the Oxford Centre for Fantasy and we're going to be talking today about the second age and the Amazon Prime series that's based on that material due to be broadcast next year. Many of you will be watching this on YouTube and on Facebook but there's also a podcast version of this which if you want to listen to, you can find it on our website at the MythMakers podcast. Right, well let me introduce the people who are joining me today for this discussion so first of all Paula over to you. Hi, I'm Paula Calamaris. I'm a fantasy writer and I own a small publishing company and I've just released a new fantasy novel with my partner Paul Craley called Shadows and Light and I've been influenced by Tolkien's part as long as I can remember. And also with us is Ty who has I think the most Tolkien-esque name I've ever come across so Ty tell us a little bit about yourself. I do production as well as distribution internationally and been a Tolkien fan for my life pretty much so looking forward to discussing this stuff. That's as a movie maker or a filmmaker as we say over here in Oxford. Exactly. Yeah and I'm Julia Golding. I'm the director of the Oxford Centre for Fantasy but I'm also a novelist and a screen writer amongst other things and really Tolkien was the writer who got me into writing when I was younger so like Paula and like Ty absolutely fascinated to see what happens when the second age material is taken on for this series. So what we're going to be doing first of all is giving you a rough guide to where you can find the material that's the sources in which you can look up later for the detail. Then we're going to be drawing out the main themes that are available to the screen writers and then we're going to have fun working out what they might do with that material both the challenges and also the riches that they have to uncover. So first of all let's talk about the sources for the second age. So first of all Paula where would you go to first if you were looking for second age material. Well the first place that I have always looked is in the appendices of the return of the king because it gives the story of R1 and it gives the time lines of all of the ages the rise and fall of Numenor you find out everything else and then I go to the Silmarillion. So those are my points. So Ty where would you go in the Silmarillion I know that you're a particularly expert on this because the first thing you told me about yourself was that your introduction to Tolkien was by which book. Silmarillion yeah and it started with the Hobbit actually with my mom reading the Hobbit to us when we were kids and then went to I hadn't read Lord of the Rings I actually started with the Silmarillion and that was really interesting because it's probably the toughest book to start to read because you got to keep flipping back and forth to the end and trying to figure out who these guys are. But the final part of that book is a column that which was written by pretty much brought together by Christopher after after Tolkien passed away and it's where I get pretty much all my information it describes the lands who they were and what finally happened to them. Yeah and Christopher Tolkien is obviously the the son of Tolkien who died very recently but he took on the editorial task once his father had passed. And the final place where there are probably other places too but the final sort of main chunks that you can find are ones which are a bit more obscure they're in a volume called the unfinished tales which as the title tells you they are unfinished. They're also sometimes not the final version in the sense that you might find the same story told slightly differently in say the Silmarillion so they're not like the canonical version the last version of second age material but that's also got some really fascinating little stories in there and some longer length tales if you want to look them up. Okay so that's the main sources let's think about the main story lines that you get running through the second age now just so you can sort of position yourself if you're not familiar with Tolkien material. He divided his world up into four ages you've got the first age which are the sort of creation story and the early days of the elves and the big battles there are the Silmarillion. The second age which we're talking about the third age is a very long period but the end of that is very familiar from the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and then the fourth age is what happens after plots boiler the ring is destroyed I think everybody knows that who's watching the podcast yeah hope so anyway so tie would you tell us what the main story line in the new menorian cases just in brief. So what happened after the elves battled effectively Satan which was more goth from Melkor was that the the velar which were the gods took pity on man. And so they decided to give them a place away from their trials and troubles and all that it was called new menor and it's a fascinating story because it's it's equivalent equivalent to like heaven you know it's there's no sickness long life but ultimately you do die but it was the gift of death. That was granted to them by God the libertar and so it starts out as being this amazing place of bliss and it just the story unfolds and it starts getting more interesting as we go along and we'll get into that later. Exactly and that's all in the a Calabeth which you mentioned from. Correct yeah. Paul there's some really important themes happening over on the sort of more familiar territory of middle earth isn't there. There sure are simultaneous to what's going on in new menor you have men is many new menorians and other men over here and they're mingling with the elves and the elves are mingling they're fighting against Sauron who has taken over from Satan or Melkor. And he's he's created a very tense world and the elves keep fighting against him but other elves keep leaving they go to they leave the the main kingdoms of lindon and some of the other places. And they go to a place they start a place called erregion and if you know what erregion is it's also something called Holland which is during the fellowship of the ring. It becomes a place that's dangerous to the fellowship as they go through which forces them to go into the mountains which ultimately forces them to go to some place called moria and when they get to moria they meet all sorts of dangers well. During the second age the dangers are introduced by the dwarves who keep well delving down into the minds of moria and they wake up something called the bellrog or duren's brain. Duren's I can say this duren's been and the bellrogs are perverted Maya. So everything that will ultimately become Gandalf or Sauromana or the others or Melian who is in the hidden kingdom the Maya are one step down from the valor and they're here in middle earth to you know help. But the bellrogs have been perverted by morgoth and have become evil and will play a more important part in in the fellowship of the ring and the trans sentence of Gandalf. But at this time the elves are moving our elves are moving into a region and there's a elf named celiburimbor and celiburimbor or caliburimbor is the son of one of the grandson of one of the great. The great jewel makers or artificers from the first age I mean fan or who created these special jewels and Ty if you want to add in about fian or from via caliburim. fan or created these jewels they created a lot of hassle for everybody they're all lost people died all over the place and celiburimbor fought against his father who was going after the silmarils and became a great jewel maker of himself. After they defeat soron he tricks them he takes on a beautiful form calls themselves on a tour and he comes and he teaches them how to make these rings of power. And there's rings of power the same rings that have been that are very important in the third age well there's a whole poem about you know rings of power nine went to the mortal men seven went to the dwarves and three went to the elves well celiburimbor so aren't touched all the rings except the ones for the elves and then he created the one ring. which is the whole crux of the third age and the fellowship of the ring is he creates this one ring that rules all these other rings so he can hand out rings and they seem to work for a while and they're very nice and they're very pleasant and everybody's rich and they have long lives and they have all these things and then eventually greed and cruelty and all of the other things that characterize soron come to play and then turn into the world. They do what are eventually called the not school and the dwarves lock themselves up and keep digging for more and more treasure and the elves hide the rings. So sorry I never had even though his one ring can control them he's never touched them so that's where that's the secondary line of stories it's going to be going on if you've got new and over here and you've got the rings being created here eventually they're going to come together. Okay so my role in this is to kind of do the rest so you've got the forging of the rings the making of the rings that's sour on as the tent to figure happening middle earth but around middle earth you also have the potential for story themes of characters that we know exist at that time. I'm sure anyone who's read the books can come up with quite a few obviously you've got tree beard and the ants are still rocking around at this time and you've got Tom Bombardill he's the oldest so he's definitely there and what about the others well. We know from the very start of Lord the Rings I don't know when you pick up fellowship the ring if you go straight into the story of you read those introductory elements but there is a little hobbit history and you've got sort of like not exactly primitive but early communities of hobbits he mentioned three families who are like prototype hobbits. They don't seem to take much part in history but they are you know potentially there and one thing which I'm really fascinated about is in the unfinished tails there's mention of got to get their names right because it's very similar to another name the drew a dine as opposed to the drew a dine they are the wild men. And if you remember in the return of the king when Rohan is looking for a way a quick way through to ministerous to join the battle of Paleno they go through a forest and they met they meet this wild man. So it's a kind of species of man a bit similar to say like the Aboriginal communities in Australia is that kind of relationship to the other men around them. And there's a really fascinating series of tales about these men in the unfinished tails including the tantalizing glimpse of the fact that some of them are on Numenor they are there because they love the one tree that's there and I think that'll be just fascinating they also have that perspective that they're slightly outside the main run of men. So if you're looking for another perspective on this story they are potential and in addition to them you've also got other men not Numenorians but just general general run the mill men and women and there's a story about Numenor coming in as like a first of all a friendly power bringing crafts and agriculture and then as a colonial oppressor. As the Numenor sort of savers so you've got another potential colonial story there which exists. So anyway these are some of the themes which we've drawn out that cover the second age material we should mention of course that it's a hugely long period of time and we'll come back to that in a minute. Is it about 4,000 years something like that around 4,000 years yeah yeah it's a long period of time so when you think about our own history 4,000 years ago we're talking Egyptians you know it's that period of time there's a lot of potential of difficult to write as a but fortunately you've got characters who live that long when you talk about Elven characters for example Annence they they obviously have long lives. Okay so let's we talk about how the themes interact I've mentioned one way which is the Numenorian the idea of them as colonizers coming over and reacting with middle of but there are other links is not as if the creation of the rings happens over here and Numenor over here there's lots of triangulation that goes on where do you see the main connections to make the story of the second age basically hold together. Pula why don't you know I was waiting for that. You know the interesting thing is you've got Elron and Elros you know once half Elven the other one chooses the human side you know that that was one of their their offers which you know they took upon themselves one of them said okay I'll take the houses of the else that was Elron and that's why you see him through all the ages. The other one was Elros who was gifted as King Numenor and so you know there's there's this you never find out in any of Tolkien's writings whether not they got to talk to each other. It was far before the Palantir so somebody wrote oh they would have looked at each other and they're like I'm back up guys they didn't have that so I think if you followed that narrative where you've got two brothers. That are effectively in different parts of the world remember Rivendell was set up as a refuge so there was still war there was still bad stuff going on in middle earth they they still had saurong whereas in Numenor it was long life no sickness you're close to the blessed realm you've got you know I will they built it up so it would have been beautiful Ivana who was one of the my art I mean she was one of the Valar blessed it so it really. So it really was in all aspects of perfect place and when the Numenorians went over it's about six hundred eight eight hundred whatever second age year. Everybody was amazed at their power and so what does that say about middle earth at the time it was kind of a dark ages and so it would be very interesting to me. How the writers and the producers will put those two together because again it's a long long period you know four thousand years and God knows how many characters it's going to be interesting to see what point of time they're going to address. And to your point you know you've got Galadriel that's been around you've got pretty much all of the elves are still going to be there that we know in in Lord of the Rings including Glorfendell. So to me that's going to be the fascinating part is how do they put these two together and how do they show to your point the Numenorians originally is gift givers you know hey we want to help you out we want to build a city we want to be here for you and and protect you to becoming that power where even Sauron's armies leave and Sauron has to hey don't wait me out kids I'm here. You know like you said they put the the middle earth men or the middle men in servitude and that would be really interesting to see how they how they present that because you had two groups of people on Numenor you had those who were going to leave for that let's go oppress them and then you had a group called the faithful which was totally against that they were more let's follow the elevator elevator or God let's treat everybody right and it's going to be fun to watch how they address that. And I also think there's going to be a yeah a significant amount of the elves because the elves were no matter what the Numenorians were still jealous of the elves. I mean these are the moral and they've got my my are in there you know breathing with them so that you know what by the time you get to. Down to our when she's got great great grandparents who are you know my are which are one step down from the Valar and you got and you know all of the elven ancestry so you have all of that going on you have a king like Gilgalad. Who's he's keeping himself to himself even though he's out trying to protect people this still causes a great deal of stress amongst all of these people because you get you know you've had a story of Lucian and Baron and they captured a similar and she's given up her. Elven existence in that wrinkles with people a lot especially with the elves because there immortality means that they will eventually even after they die their spirits will go to. To Valar and there will be there with the gods whereas the mortal men will go to the halls of mandro's and have a completely different fate and. Men are really excited about that concept and you know it's like they're going to die and these guys get the you know they go hang out with the gods and it's it's a little you know there's there's a certain tension that exists probably at all times. I mean it goes all we got there. I think Gilgalad is an interesting new character he does get mentioned in a song in Lord the Rings I think Sam sings the song yeah Sam sings the song which is a good summary of the Gilgalad. Story but he is the big exciting new character on the elf side who has a kingdom which I'm sounds very much like my favorite chocolate brand but linden and that is if you look at the maps it's sort of above where you normally look for the shy and it's a kingdom that's both land and see so in terms of. The potential for the filmmakers they've got some new landscapes they can explore because they have not really done much about the sea. And because he is a see in a seafaring kingdom that gives them a connection to the Numenorians and he is actually friendly with one very important king from Numenor. And that friendship means that the Numenorian fleet comes at the right time to save their bacon at some point so here's. A key character and I'm sure is because he lives through the whole period will be one of the uniting sort of threads because compared to them all the men are like Mayflies they live for such a short time they come and go. Whereas the elf characters are that sort of thread of continuity so I think that when we sort of think about the challenges and gosh there are lots of challenges for these green writers. What do you think of the main challenges we've already mentioned the long spans of time and how you make that connect. What else do you see as challenges for them. I think just the. The scope of the story now they said they're going to do multiple series so it may be that you know they start with something year one. Remember in Lord of the Rings the thing that Peter Jackson did was he would start it with kind of a summary about how everything came to be. My guess is they're going to look I don't think they're going to do a deep dive into everything I think token fans will probably be a little bit bummed out because they're not getting into the deep lore. But again if you get into the deep lower you're going to lose a huge part of your audience because somebody's going to be saying I'll go back to Ted Lasso. So for me it's it's it's figuring out again who those central characters are and I would agree with you guys I think they're probably going to go albisch. And because they've been around and they can tell stories about you know this is how this happened because remember well I'll bring it up a call of it was originally written as a letter. So it was to somebody from somebody and it was about this is how the downfall of men happened on numerous so you know it'll be interesting to see if they take it from a linear a straight point here we're going to start here we're going to end. And like Lord of the Rings or if they're going to go back and forth between things to show past history and how this affected this so you know Alpharazone and his you know he was the last king and he was the one that challenged the West and said I'm going to go and it'll be interesting to see if they start with that because that will be a massive, massive, massive piece and you're going to wonder what the heck it's all about so it's going to be fun. I could not imagine being in a writer's room and and also be under the restrictions or the guidance and the restrictions of you know the Tolkien family because you got to think of it they're going to they already said they're going to invent new characters that kind of go along with the story. But they are not allowed to go outside of the storyline so they've got to stick to it so to me it's going to be so interesting to see how they they keep that going because I think you know the Lord of the Rings there were a few things in there that I think a lot of die hard Tolkien fans. They loved it but some of the things they weren't too happy about and to me it's going to be interesting to see who they aim for they aiming for the Tolkien fan or they aiming for the larger audience and I think they're going to go larger audience. I agree I definitely agree that they're going to go larger audience but I think they're also going to fill in with the obsession that everybody has with elves. I mean if you even if you look at something like Pinterest or some of these other sites because I teach a Tolkien class and so I like to do PowerPoints for people so that they can see things and you just look for images and there's like thousands of images of elves in various situations. Not necessarily connected to Tolkien but their elves and they're based on you know Thrandu and Legolas and all of them and it's very interesting to see this even when some of these like Tolkien weekies and all of these other places so I think they're going to have to take into consideration that there is a huge section of the population that are die hard Tolkien fans. Whether it was through the movies or or whatever you know the habit worked my mom read to me and you know my I graduated from Lewis to being handed the habit to being to reading more of the rings. I mean that that was a progression of my my reading as a child and then she wondered why I was a medieval history. But but so I really think that at this point they're going to have to integrate both of them and I I was saying to Julia I thought one of their best ways to be doing it is just as gladriel tells the story at the beginning of the fellowship of the rings. Maybe I'll run telling the story and he's telling it to aragon as a still as a young boy is telling him his history without revealing that he is to be the king someday I thought that would be an interesting device to use. The other side is I'm sorry I'm just going to say another little sidebar as you mentioned to and will whose legacies father that he's around just another person yeah I think the problem they have though is just the realities of making let's think about it now as creatives as opposed to Tolkien nerds difficult though that may be. We so the films were made for a theatrical audience family audience what we already know from the gossip coming out of New Zealand it they hired an intimacy coordinator which is a sign that there will be some. Well it could be a person on person violence but it often is a sign there's sexual interactions going on for which they fortunately now have proper you know coaching for but it does suggest adult themes and I think there's a concern which I've heard on the sort of discussion when we posted we were doing this lots of people saying please don't do a game of thrones they don't want. The issue is that there is loads potential for that in particularly in the new minorian materials because you've got human sacrifice forced marriages which are basically marriage by rape by marriage all sorts of corrupt shenanigans. So you can see how legitimately sticking within the story that they have been allowed to use that they could go in that direction I think it would be a massive mistake to take it to mature I just think it would. If it's not something you can sit down with your maybe teenage kids and watch comfortably I think that would be really hard and me that would be a little without being graphic. Yeah so yeah in terms of sort of rankings in you know film rankings I think it if it go it's a different in America over here but we would say an advisory level or a 15 is how we do it here what's the. Absolutely if they go above that to the sort of a over 18 thing I think that. I think there would be a massive lot of unhappy talking fans out there but maybe that's I don't know what do you think about that. Well and this is why you know we didn't even talk about who another point of view where it would come from would be through Sauron. Yeah through Anatar because he is the underlying factor here after after morgoth or Melkor falls you know he's left he's still in middle earth. And so he's building stuff and when he sees the the new minorians he's like okay I got to build more doors so. And then he comes back his Anatar you know the gift giver and he look he he was apparently a pretty good looking good looking guy because he helps a welcome didn't say hey come on in so for me you know I don't think. I don't feel like they're going to go game of Thrones because first of all game of Thrones has already been done the audience is there and they don't want that comparison the other side of it is don't forget the token estate is behind this they have the ultimate say in what goes in and what doesn't go in. I think that they would be not I can't speak on their behalf but if I was thinking about it and thinking the way token perceived the books which was you look at the hobbit very kid story harmless fun. Then you go into the Lord of the Rings which was much more okay this is the establishment of the age of men and you're going in the summer really is the darkest of all of them because it's almost a narrative it is a narrative. And it is it is as dark as you're going to get because you've got yeah you got the gods going against this you got you know fighting against each other and you also have something something that I find interesting which is. That it's almost as if once the Valar have done their part they leave. And they leave it up to man to take care of so for me the second age is going to be about you know the establishment of the kingdom of men but also what's still happening in middle earth. And you can't tell that story without being pretty dark in some places because that's what it's all about so you know we discussed this earlier about will there be humor and you know if I'm guessing and I just all I am doing is guessing there's probably not going to be a lot of humor in this it's going to be a epic story. With I mean you talk about visuals some of the stuff I can't wait to see you know the great mountain you know basically just going through all the middle earth during that time to so yeah I. My guess is it's going to be around 15 or what we call PG 13 here maybe between that and are in some places but you know going full on. That way you're going to lose a lot of talking fans they're going to be going yeah not for me I'll read the book maybe not just talking fans people will be looking for family entertainment the people who want to see the films aren't necessarily talking fans they just think oh here's a good fantasy film. And I think if they turn up and find it's the kind of thing where you want to cover the eyes of your actually in my family the kids would be embarrassed that I was there they're recovering my mom you can't watch this. I think if that's the reaction it it's going to be it will certainly restrict people who watch it I think whether or not you find a new audience that could be the calculation I can imagine that conversation going on we need to actually expand this into a new audience. And it's not going to be broadcast it's going to be specific so unless you stream it and you don't and you don't have that service you're not going to really you're not going to really see it and I think that's interesting way because that may open them up to doing all sorts of things that. I think might be excessive but then there are is I mean just remembering what happened to Kell Brimbor what so on does to him at the end you all remember that he's pretty. Yeah so in a bit of talk show potential so that kind of thing I mean but that's part of the story that's part of what how the evil manifest in a lot of this is about evil manifesting. I just want to go back to something this one to go back to I said which was about the linking figure of Sauron now as a creative that's what I would probably be thinking about most because you have I don't think they'll do this but you have the wonderful potential for an anti hero the kind of milltonic Satan figure you could almost see a really. A surprising take on this to be telling it from his point of view because he is the guy who keeps getting knocked down and gets back up again the Lucifer figure they won't do that of course but you could see a really fascinating version of this telling it from that flip side it would be interesting it would be an interesting device to have him as part of the narrative. Maybe now the season conclusions let's say they're doing four or five seasons you've got his down for is really there each one of those or his rise back into power he is the guy who is actually the point at which we get this climax he is the reason why human or is. You know turns into Atlantis and disappears he is the reason why the rings are created you know so he is absolutely key central and another thing that time mentioned is the lack of with potential for the lack of charm and humor now this is where I want to throw my toys out the pram because I think the real difference of talking from many other forms of fantasy is that he has this real. I say English sensibility you know the hobbits having tea and talking about second breakfast there's a sort of earthiness and grounding in there a charm which is harder to find in the Silmarillion but not impossible to find. And if they don't do that it will just feel like yet another big scale fantasy epic thing which never actually touches the heart and I think that's the danger because the elves aren't us who is the perspective that is us. I don't emote with with an eternal being come to aware of my frailty and humanity and you can obviously have human perspectives in it particularly any underdog figures like the elf friends the new menorian elf friends who are the ones who fall out of favor with the kings as they get more and more corrupt. That's one of the other ways of having charm is when you think back to the beginning of the Silmarillion and how the world is created. That's what our introduces music and music is very much a part of Elvis tradition and Elvis life and I'm sure with the new menorians and I think if they play upon the music and play upon the poetry and the songs that could add a lot of charm. I think it would well I think that will add atmosphere and beauty but would it actually by charm I mean but if something a bit more relatable. Well if you're performing it and you're on stage with you know if you're a performer who's a human doing it for an elf is or a Sam would do a poem or any other thing you can introduce somebody with a sense of humor with something more right than just the grim okay we're going to colonize and destroy everyone concept we can you know maybe make. But don't you think they need banter so I'm just thinking like you know what they need is like the fellowship had banter and when you think of the success of the Marvel films the ones that often do the best of the ones where there is banter even though these are super human characters when there's humor like the Thor Ragnarok everybody goes wow this is really funny and suddenly I can relate to the fact that Thor's a god because he's talking about. The whole being a friend from work you know suddenly it becomes oh yeah I can relate to them I think you don't want everyone's sort of speaking at the very early my lord I deem that bow up this that stuff you want something that's much more. I would almost imagine that Elrond has a better sense of humor than Elrond. Yeah and I was going to get to that so Elrond does have that sense of humor when you know Mary and Pippin are going to go is like well I guess you're going to go and then you know there is that underlying humor and I think it is very much the English humor which is the you know it's great that you're in this meeting even though you weren't invited. So I think my guess is they're they're going to find these characters that they can put in there that you know provide a little bit of levity because you have to I mean you just can't have oppression you know through six seasons of you know that's going to be tough so I think finding that underlying you know with tragedy it allows humor to be all that greater that much greater and that's where you know that's what some of the best movies that have been out there I mean Shawshank redemption. Guys going through hell but he still talks a little bit to read why is your name read I'm Irish you know it's that kind of that kind of underlying humor where it can be subtle you know we're not going to go. Full on whatever the office but although they did do a good token office I will say that but if you did something like that where you've got peaks and valleys you've got those parts where there's a little bit of humor a little bit of touch in there. So you're giving people that but you also have the hope element that's going to play huge in the story. You know it's fighting evil there's that's one of the things I love about it there's definitive evil and then there's this good and then there's the middle and so it's going to be interesting to see how they take that narrative I agree. I have to keep it when you have relationships and you're going to be having relationships between you know Elven men or human men and Elven women and other things that they're not going to just be grim sitting around doing nothing I mean they're going to. And I'm not talking intimacy I'm just talking about getting to know each other and banter and you know I would imagine that you know that there had to be something more than oh I just saw her standing there and I fell in love with her. They'd probably had a talk at some point so they I'm sure that will bring some kind of human touch to some of these. I mean that's something else to mention is that actually in the second age there is loads of women that you got some really interesting Numenorian women there's in the in the unfinished tales says a really interesting story of a king and it's what I sort of failed marriage. It's a long study of a felt marriage of one of the Numenorian kings where he's going off sailing the world making friendship with Gilgalan others which turns out to be key but from the perspective of the wife left behind it's kind of like hey yeah where's my husband gone. Where you going? Yeah and it's very interestingly written and very nuanced you could have a whole season of just that actually I don't do that. You could you go and you've obviously got Galadriel in a key position. One of the questions we were sent in is by who who asked this let me just find Elizabeth was asking us what about dwarf women because one of the key centers is Moria as you mentioned. And in the films you remember that there's a reference brief reference to dwarven women and in fact in the Hobbit Peter Jackson puts them in the bearded ladies. But there are you could do a proper dwarf kingdom where you see proper strong dwarf women as well that would be quite funny. You know they're cave bodies but it doesn't mean that they you know don't have influence on what goes on. Yeah. No I look the great thing about Tolkien is he made the women you know very strong and you got that from his Norse influence I think and also just he wanted that feeling that you're going to have somebody that's not going to just be oh poor little me and you know it's it's amazing how like with new men are we talking about there's three queens and they were very powerful one actually relinquish the throne because it was going to be over thrown anyway. I look at that and between that and Sauron and again you've got Galadriel still out there you've got you've got quite a few characters that you can start picking on including which would be interesting. We talked about the you know the eldest Tom Bombadil well he's got a hell of a sense of humor so you know maybe it's him and goldberry you know dealing with that too I don't know it's going to be fun. I would like to go off on that tangent. I missed him so much in order. He's been there. Yeah he the problem is as a as a from a story point of view he kind of busts through things he doesn't he doesn't behave you know he's he's a bit of a random element almost a caricature in a sense he's been really hard to make convincing. You know basically I think he works on the page and would be hard to work in a film personally so yeah. And I've got some more questions. Are you ready for the questions are you ready for the questions so Parker asked do we think that the show is going to be similar in tone to the Peter Jackson movies. We don't. I mean we've already mentioned the adult themes I've got feeling the look is going to be a bit similar the actual design of it. The one the one image that we've got that's on the if you go to the Amazon Prime site for it the banner image if you look very carefully you can see the white tree of Nimlot in the back. If anyone's notice that this looks like a sunrise but if you look carefully you can see branches so it looks as though it could be. Numerial that that is a still from if that is indeed a tree but the it feels like a potential production design from the Peter Jackson films I think with that's unreal not quite rooted landscape of. The Iranian on jack tap on some drug style places lots of white arches and that kind of thing. So I think that is going to be similar in look as opposed to material you know script I think you're right I think and when I said do I think it will be like the Peter Jackson movies the reason I'm saying no first of all with a series you've got a lot more. You can pace so you don't have to fit everything in three movies even if they are three hours long. The other side of it is you know I think I'm not sure what the rights were that new line had and all that from Tolkien estate but it sounds like they weren't as restricted in the storytelling meaning Peter Jackson wasn't as restricted in his storytelling as they're doing here. So for me it's going to be do I think it's like Peter Jackson's I think it's going to be more straight to the book you know more straight to the stories that are in. Lost tales and some really in in the appendix and all that but I think the visual yeah I think visuals going to stay within the continuity of the of the movies because they didn't straight from in the hobbit. They went through all the movies there so that's my own personal opinion on it I hope I'm right because they did some good jobs on that. Yeah it was it was straight they were striking and I think that's I'm sure the sets many of the sets are probably still there so I think they're going to utilize whatever they have and then supplement it but I do think that the same visual style is going to be the same story wise. Hit yeah I mean that that visuals sort of fantasy world theme seems to be in other fantasy series as well just looking at the wheel of time trailer there is a sort of approach that's gone into these high fantasy that's very you know it's hard to imagine them not doing it in a strange kind of way if they've got the budget. Another question we've been asked is well will want us to think about jakes us to talk about killer brim balls involvement in the rings of power which you mentioned a little bit Paula. Sauron and the nine lords who became black riders and Nancy also asked about this because she points out the nazi all the black riders that three of them are lords of numino and the rest of which king. Yeah so yeah so obviously new mineral disappears in the second age so these characters are going to be potential. Lessor bad guys the closest followers one assumes of the tempter Sauron so does anybody have anything they'd like to say about that sort of what they would do with nine is a lot of characters but what would you do with nine potentially evil lords. I think Ty has an answer for this okay Ty off you go. Remember they're not rage yet and that's the thing that I think is fantastic is that they're described in the books and paraphrasing so the geeks here this i'm sorry but they described as great sorcerers and to me that's freaking that that's going to be pretty cool because you know the sorry doesn't come they don't come out to the in other words Gandalf sourman ready to ask the two blues. They don't come out until the third age so you've got this time to build those characters out and you know watch them slowly evolve into the emissaries of Sauron and to me that's going to be incredible but it's also the balance. Of having the dwarves with their rings as well and eventually like what we were talking about everything starts falling apart so you know in one side you've got the rings of power being built in the other side you've got new manure and to see the the rings of power start to just you know bring the downfall of these guys it's going to be pretty cool and if they're not all that's going to be pretty late in yeah late in the age. It's been all the more easterlings some of them excuse me the second in command of the witch can has been described as an easterling. I forget the name was he's the other one named is calm or something and so he's not for the direct line of people so he saw and reached out. He reached out he wasn't just concentrating on the people beneath the new menorians in the middle earth he was reaching out to others and that brings in a whole group of other people. Just as a little sidebar here we've also had questions about the wizards and particularly the blue wizards who are the ones that. And I said he can't remember their names and they don't come over as tied just said and or least we think they don't come over until the beginning of the third age. But me clearly that they are like arch angels they are sort of these Maya figures so. And one could possibly say they were around but I don't think the token estate would allow that is a Maya. In my yeah no but the Million yeah they there are some yes they exist they exist but the actual wizard version of this. Are not players yet their third age characters which is interesting because when you think about it you've got fear nor. Who device the summer alliance he was a student of our late you have sauron who before he fell was also a disciple of our late and then you have you know who raised up new manure who established new manure was also who was the basically a Maya guy. I'm lifted up but it was again I will a did that and then I'll basically always responsible for all the problems of the elves and men really. I agree I think that's a real revelation how they did it. That's the answer to the mystery. So there you go there you go it's all this the end here's a couple of quick fire things just to wrap up here. If if you were rung up and and they said hey we got problems the script would you like to come over and fix it would you take that gig. Absolutely sure absolutely no question. Take it I'm on my way I'll bring my cap. The the writers room must be full of people banging the head against the wall though just trying to square this. I mean it's hard enough to do in a hallmark script again I'm just going to do the tires on real. Sorry a lot of. Fear for me. Really I mean you think about Lord of the Rings that that's a narrative and it still took them. I don't even know how many times they went through it now you've got something that's going to encompass 4,000 years. Wow you know yeah and I'm wondering how is that going to be structured that's the thing that really fascinating me is how are they going to structure how are they going to bring the continuity how are they going to. Into into weave all of these stories. Yeah. Yeah. As mortal else versus mortal man like you said may flies. So the next quick fire question is the other side of the camera. If you were going to be cast as a character who would you pick I'm just going to say that there is a cast list. Of on the Amazon prime site and it's quite a fun game which I did with my boys which is to go through trying to guess everybody was going to be you know elf dwarf. Man new menorian you know it's quite fun to see if you can guess and looking at it the one face I recognize is really famous in the UK is Lenny Henry who's a really well known actor comedian over here. Very very like so Henny so Lenny Henry is one of our acting nobility over here. Can't work out who he is. Absolutely fascinating Elros he would be you know his his he can't you can't have a minor role so you look at these people you think oh who on earth can you be. So that's quite fun but let's imagine that for some reason you got the call and they decided to cast you who would you like to be told that you are playing what's the meaty roll. Boy that's tarp volunteer I don't know that's going to be um tarp. That's a real. I want to be saueron that's the one I'd like. It was just taking the same thing you know because the wicked charmer definitely want to be wicked. He's a pretty pretty interesting cat you know and the thing is. He's he comes as something of beauty and then he goes in spirit and then he becomes the eye so he's got multiple forms there so you can you can play with the character a bit but boy that's a tough question. I don't think I'm not first on the list for that part for many many reasons including the fact I can't act and I'm the wrong gender but there we go. What would be in this imaginary world that's the one. Perhaps I could put my name in the chat. How do you know? What about you? I've thought about this a lot of times because every time I read something else oh I want to play that person. I have always. This is very presumptuous of me but I hope we start I would be good as Melian. You're right you fancy yourself as a Maya. I think another really good female part would be Tarmuril the last tragic. That was the other part I was thinking about is Tarmuril, Melian. I mean it goes through so much too. So they were all of you who are watching this are having your own little thought experiment here of casting yourself in this. Maybe some of you even know in extras or whatever and having great fun. I think it's going to be amazing I really wish the production team well on this. I hope that you really succeed and we're here to support you and stand in awe of the task that you have in front of you. We wish you really well with it. Absolutely. For those of you who are watching if you want to keep in touch with our future live streams do go to our website. There's lots of things happening on our website including some fantasy writer courses and in-person courses in Oxford. Because the whole point of the Oxford Centre for fantasy is to remember where this writer came from. We're talking came from the city that inspired him as well as his friends, Lewis and others so that's what we're about. But it's great to see that he's influenced us red all over the globe and it's such fun to share it with you all. So thank you so much for staying with us and for watching. Goodbye. Thank you. Thank you. you