Alice Worth Series and Writing Urban Fantasy - Part 1

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.920 --> 00:00:08.710Hello, and welcome to myth makers.2 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:13.750 Myth makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives 3 00:00:13.940 --> 00:00:18.670 brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy. My name is Julia Golden. 4 00:00:19.170 --> 00:00:21.820 I'm an author, but also a director of the center. 5 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:26.420 And today I am joined by a special guest from America, 6 00:00:26.970 --> 00:00:28.460 Lisa Edmonds, 7 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:33.660 who is well best known to me for her Alice Worth's series. 8 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:36.660 Now, before we talk about that, uh, Lisa, 9 00:00:36.730 --> 00:00:41.530 perhaps you might want to take us on your own personal story of your 10 00:00:41.530 --> 00:00:45.330 journey to becoming an author. What happened before to get you to this point? 11 00:00:46.950 --> 00:00:50.490Um, well, Both my parents were librarians,12 00:00:50.910 --> 00:00:54.210 so I'll start with that. Um, and when both your parents were librarians, 13 00:00:54.270 --> 00:00:58.280 you grow up in libraries, you read a ton. Yes. Um, 14 00:00:59.220 --> 00:01:03.880 you, so from a very young age, um, my dad was also very nerdy, 15 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:08.000 so I grew up watching reruns of the original star Trek. Um, 16 00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:12.960 so I grew up on science fiction and fantasy and mysteries, um, 17 00:01:13.070 --> 00:01:17.550 started with Nancy drew <laugh>, uh, when I was little. Um, 18 00:01:17.650 --> 00:01:20.270 and then in my teen years, I, um, 19 00:01:20.270 --> 00:01:24.910 kind of graduated to cozy mysteries and hard boil detective fiction. 20 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.870 Um, and I especially really loved, uh, private investigator. Uh, 21 00:01:29.870 --> 00:01:34.380 but I also read a lot of, uh, police procedurals, like ed McBain. Um, 22 00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:38.900 so I was reading a lot of Sue Grafton, um, who wrote the alphabet mysteries. 23 00:01:39.300 --> 00:01:44.220 I know that's a little bit out of the purview of myth makers, but, um, and, uh, 24 00:01:44.710 --> 00:01:47.860 Sarah Persky who wrote the VI Warshawsky books, um, 25 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:51.100 there was a movie maker of that. Um, 26 00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:54.690 so I just kind of read a lot of genre fiction. Um, 27 00:01:55.410 --> 00:02:00.370 I kind of envisioned myself writing really science fiction. Um, 28 00:02:00.790 --> 00:02:04.810 so it was a bit of a surprise, um, that I started writing urban fantasy, but, 29 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:09.370 um, I discovered the genre through Kim Harrison's books. Um, 30 00:02:09.670 --> 00:02:12.600 the Rachel Morgan Hollow's books, 31 00:02:12.940 --> 00:02:15.640 and it was sort of like a gateway drug <laugh>. Um, 32 00:02:16.530 --> 00:02:18.960 after that I just started reading every urban fantasy series. 33 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:20.600 I could get my hands on, um, 34 00:02:20.600 --> 00:02:25.120 and it was like the perfect melding of the science fiction, the fantasy, 35 00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:28.720 um, and the mysteries, um, 36 00:02:28.720 --> 00:02:32.630 because every book in an urban fantasy tends to have some kind of mystery to 37 00:02:32.630 --> 00:02:35.910 solve, you know, what kind of creature is this who's causing all this, this, 38 00:02:35.910 --> 00:02:37.670 this disruption. Um, 39 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:42.470 and then you have these wonderful characters that, you know, 40 00:02:42.470 --> 00:02:47.070 the typical urban fantasy heroin has a lot of snark. Um, 41 00:02:47.730 --> 00:02:52.580 you know, she's a, she tends to be a self rescuing princess, which is, um, 42 00:02:52.730 --> 00:02:55.340 also a great, um, you know, 43 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:59.100 creates great storylines and I just love imagination. 44 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.640 So I love the world building. So, um, all that kind of came together and, 45 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:05.520 uh, a couple of years ago, I guess, well, 46 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.040 it's been more than a couple of years ago now, but, uh, back in about 2015, 47 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.200 I thought, you know, well, maybe I could try my hand at this. Um, so I, 48 00:03:14.260 --> 00:03:14.600 you know, 49 00:03:14.600 --> 00:03:19.270 developed a character and a world and yeah, 50 00:03:19.270 --> 00:03:20.430 and that's how it all got started. 51 00:03:21.610 --> 00:03:26.470Did your journey on the way include the JD Rob stories? Cuz they were one of my,52 00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:30.790 uh, entryway into that kind of sci-fi police procedural. 53 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:32.510 I've been following it all the way. 54 00:03:32.510 --> 00:03:34.990 Cause I think she started writing those in the nineties. Didn't she? 55 00:03:34.990 --> 00:03:35.740 Mm-hmm <affirmative>. 56 00:03:35.740 --> 00:03:37.100Yeah, I's been around a really long time.57 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:42.060Not running series, but that was the thing that showed me, um,58 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.540 the way that you could mash up genres of something which was familiar, you know, 59 00:03:47.540 --> 00:03:49.980 contemporary police procedurals, and then, 60 00:03:49.980 --> 00:03:51.700 but then put it 50 years in the future. 61 00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:57.090 I think the only where catching up aren't we with the historical period she's 62 00:03:57.090 --> 00:03:57.923 chosen. 63 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.690Well, and I also really like the Scandinavian, um,64 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:06.250 sort of psychological thriller mysteries as well. Um, 65 00:04:06.250 --> 00:04:11.010 like the Hening man ankle series. Okay. And um, oh gosh, uh, the Kenneth brag, 66 00:04:11.010 --> 00:04:13.880 they turned it into a TV series, Kenneth Brown, um, 67 00:04:14.140 --> 00:04:17.160 and a bunch of other like the there's just nobody that does that. Dark, 68 00:04:17.710 --> 00:04:22.400 psychological really twisted <laugh>, um, 69 00:04:22.590 --> 00:04:26.480 mysteries like Norwegian and Swedish, um, and Danish authors. 70 00:04:26.620 --> 00:04:30.880 So I feel like my series is like an amalgamation of all of that. 71 00:04:31.420 --> 00:04:36.110 Um, Atlas is a little, um, a little bit Kinsey Milone who is, 72 00:04:36.530 --> 00:04:40.910 uh, Sue Grafton's, uh, PI and a little bit via Warshawsky. Uh, 73 00:04:40.910 --> 00:04:44.590 but then also, um, influenced by, you know, 74 00:04:44.650 --> 00:04:49.550 all the fantasy and all of the, um, the mysteries and of, 75 00:04:49.550 --> 00:04:49.870 you know, 76 00:04:49.870 --> 00:04:54.860 sort of across all the sub genres sort of all <laugh> put together in one body. 77 00:04:55.890 --> 00:05:00.220Yeah. Talking had this, um, thing he wrote about the Coldron of stories,78 00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:04.540 the idea that all these other elements from everything you've read and the 79 00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:08.180 traditions have go into this and then you label out your own version of it. 80 00:05:09.110 --> 00:05:12.970 And then of course I would say Alice is definitely her own character. You know, 81 00:05:12.970 --> 00:05:16.570 she may have had these seeds in her origins, but I love her as, uh, 82 00:05:16.950 --> 00:05:18.810 the character she's grown to be. 83 00:05:19.590 --> 00:05:23.450 So looking at the Alice worst series, um, 84 00:05:23.450 --> 00:05:28.440 for those who haven't yet read it and I'm stressing the yet <laugh> 85 00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:30.560 uh, it's in the urban fantasy genre. 86 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.320 Would you like to give us a little kind of taste of what they will find 87 00:05:35.380 --> 00:05:36.720 if they start reading the series? 88 00:05:37.710 --> 00:05:42.600Sure. Um, you know, uh, my particular world is sort of it's,89 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.310 it's very similar Alice's world is very similar to our own, uh, 90 00:05:46.310 --> 00:05:48.430 with the addition of, you know, 91 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:52.190 supernatural and paranormal creatures and beings. Um, 92 00:05:52.190 --> 00:05:56.430 so there are shifters and vampires and Googles, um, and things like that. 93 00:05:56.490 --> 00:06:00.600 And so I, I like, uh, 94 00:06:00.620 --> 00:06:05.360 my preference on urban fantasy is like our, um, like our world, 95 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:09.280 but with these interesting twists, um, excuse me, 96 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.720 I also enjoy urban fantasy that steps much farther away from our own world, 97 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.990 like, um, a bishops, the others series, which is very, very different. 98 00:06:17.770 --> 00:06:21.750 Um, so I sort of imagined, um, 99 00:06:22.020 --> 00:06:26.630 what would have to change in our world. Um, if we suddenly, 100 00:06:26.930 --> 00:06:30.230 you know, had these creatures walking among us. And so I envisioned like, well, 101 00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:34.700 there would have to be like a federal agency dedicated to sort of tracking, 102 00:06:34.700 --> 00:06:38.020 monitoring and serving as law enforcement, um, 103 00:06:38.640 --> 00:06:43.420 who are set up for interactions with creatures that aren't human don't think 104 00:06:43.450 --> 00:06:47.820 like humans and aren't, um, vulnerable to the same things that we are. 105 00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:51.460 Um, and then sort of just, it, it sort of grew from there. Um, 106 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.890 so Alice herself is, uh, a ma so she has magic. 107 00:06:55.030 --> 00:06:59.570 She has what I call natural magic. So, um, uh, 108 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:01.930 air and earth magic, um, 109 00:07:02.550 --> 00:07:06.570 as well as a few other abilities that kind of develop throughout the series. Um, 110 00:07:06.910 --> 00:07:09.650 and she is a private investigator in my world. Um, 111 00:07:09.810 --> 00:07:11.920 a ma private investigator spec, uh, 112 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.440 sort of specializes in supernatural and paranormal type mysteries and almost all 113 00:07:16.440 --> 00:07:21.160 of her cases involve solving a supernatural related mystery. 114 00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:27.400 Um, she has a ghost sidekick <laugh> um, Malcolm, his name is Malcolm, 115 00:07:27.570 --> 00:07:31.910 right? <laugh> yeah, his name is Malcolm. Um, he is, I mean, he calls, 116 00:07:32.010 --> 00:07:35.550 he calls himself the comic relief in the partnership. Um, you know, 117 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:39.830 he's a lot of fun. Um, he tends to be a crowd favorite. Um, 118 00:07:40.530 --> 00:07:41.590 and, but. 119 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:44.030In some ways he's her anchor.120 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:48.780 Like he's the one who very much sort of the conscience in some 121 00:07:48.950 --> 00:07:51.420 cases, isn't he, he corrects. 122 00:07:51.610 --> 00:07:54.220Yeah. You do always see him doing cuz Alice had the,123 00:07:54.220 --> 00:07:58.060 had a really not to spoil anything, but she had a very difficult and uh, 124 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:00.300 traumatic childhood and upbringing. 125 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.340 And so there are a lot of times where her reactions are very much shaped by 126 00:08:05.960 --> 00:08:10.450 her past and Malcolm in some and a few other characters 127 00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:15.930 come in as like her Gemini cricket. And I was sort of like Alice <laugh>, 128 00:08:16.350 --> 00:08:18.410 you know, think about this a little bit. Um, 129 00:08:18.670 --> 00:08:22.250 and you see her changing over the course of the books, um, 130 00:08:22.270 --> 00:08:26.200 and adjusting and you know, becoming a little bit more, well, 131 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:28.320 she calls it a little bit more human, um, 132 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:31.200 learning how to interact with others and how to love, 133 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.480 how to love others and care for others and how to let them care and love her. 134 00:08:36.420 --> 00:08:39.280 Um, which is a difficult journey for her, you know, 135 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.800 considering she didn't really have that growing up. Um, 136 00:08:41.800 --> 00:08:45.310 so each book they're not, they're not designed to be read, um, 137 00:08:45.770 --> 00:08:49.430 as standalones, each book contains its own story, its own mystery, 138 00:08:49.430 --> 00:08:52.070 but there are overarching stories. There's a, 139 00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:55.680 there's a major antagonist that everything is sort of building up to her, 140 00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:57.960 dealing with there's storylines that run throughout each book. 141 00:08:58.380 --> 00:09:02.440 So although each book has a self-contained mystery for her to solve because 142 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:07.440 she's a PI, um, you would wanna probably start with one <laugh> and then, 143 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.400 uh, go forward. It's not, you know, not really designed to be read out of order. 144 00:09:12.710 --> 00:09:15.230Yeah. She's also in, I wouldn't call it a love triangle.145 00:09:15.230 --> 00:09:17.350 That's the wrong word because there's another side to it, 146 00:09:17.350 --> 00:09:21.630 but she's sort of in the middle of pools between a shifter, 147 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:26.830 um, friend, a very close friend mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, lover, 148 00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:32.540 but also somebody within the vampire community who is very interested in 149 00:09:32.540 --> 00:09:36.140 her, but also the major community. So I there's three points. It's not really. 150 00:09:36.310 --> 00:09:40.180Right. And then in the federal agency, you know, a federal agent as well, well,151 00:09:40.180 --> 00:09:44.100 there we go. Um, it's, you know, there's, 152 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:46.940 there's definitely a romance angle to it as there is with a lot of urban 153 00:09:46.940 --> 00:09:49.740 fantasy, but I, you know, I definitely wanted, 154 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:54.650 I didn't want to get into the love triangle thing, um, uh, 155 00:09:54.830 --> 00:09:58.790 too much, but there definitely is a little bit of, um, 156 00:09:58.890 --> 00:10:02.320 what's the word like there, there's a, uh, 157 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:07.080 like she's trying to find the person who like, uh, you know, 158 00:10:07.180 --> 00:10:10.550 who completes her, who supports her, who compliments her, 159 00:10:10.550 --> 00:10:15.470 that's the word I was like for who compliments her the best. Um, and you know, 160 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:19.230 there's a lot of power plays going on too, as you know, 161 00:10:19.230 --> 00:10:23.870 as you would expect with any, any time that you have, um, you know, you have a, 162 00:10:23.870 --> 00:10:26.350 like the vampires they've been, they have hundreds of years old, 163 00:10:26.350 --> 00:10:28.900 they they're all about the power. They're all about the, 164 00:10:29.530 --> 00:10:32.460 what can somebody do for me? What benefits me. Um, 165 00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:34.780 and that's not necessarily the type, 166 00:10:34.880 --> 00:10:38.260 the type of partnership relationship, uh, 167 00:10:38.260 --> 00:10:40.260 that someone like Atlas would be interested in. 168 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.820 So I think what I was most interested in is exploring power dynamics in 169 00:10:45.740 --> 00:10:48.530 personal relationships and, you know, 170 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:54.410 letting Alice sort of figure out what's the healthiest type of relationship to 171 00:10:54.410 --> 00:10:55.450 be in. Yeah. Um, 172 00:10:56.430 --> 00:11:00.970 one trope in urban fantasy and paranormal romance that 173 00:11:02.150 --> 00:11:07.000 I'm less of a fan of is the ones where you have a, um, a real, 174 00:11:07.190 --> 00:11:11.400 like difference in power and you have one partner asserting that dominance over 175 00:11:11.400 --> 00:11:16.240 the other. Um, I mean, I think there's room in any genre for all kinds of, 176 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:22.060 you know, types of relationships, but I definitely wanted to focus on a more, 177 00:11:22.140 --> 00:11:23.740 a healthier type of relationship. 178 00:11:23.800 --> 00:11:27.090 So I think that is an exploration of what's a healthy relationship. 179 00:11:27.090 --> 00:11:31.880 What's going to be mutually beneficial. Um, what love really is, 180 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:35.480 um, as opposed to what can this person do for me? 181 00:11:35.620 --> 00:11:39.980 How can they advance my, my goals? You know, 182 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:43.350 which isn't to me a healthy relationship. 183 00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:49.270Yeah. And because you've got a long series that you are working on,184 00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:50.630 that the, for example, 185 00:11:50.810 --> 00:11:55.600 the main central relationship with Sean does become more and more important 186 00:11:55.780 --> 00:12:00.400 to the reader as you go on. And I, I found it really gutting in, 187 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:04.720 I think it's, um, shadows, uh, where 188 00:12:06.730 --> 00:12:07.510 she loses. 189 00:12:07.510 --> 00:12:10.710 I think it's not too much a spoiled to say that she's Casa loses her memory. 190 00:12:10.710 --> 00:12:12.700 I think it's in the blurb. So I'm allowed to say that. 191 00:12:13.290 --> 00:12:14.123Yeah, it's on.192 00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:19.380Yeah. So it's a, a reset of her relationship with Sean, but it's,193 00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:23.340 it is absolutely, it's just terrible to see her. No, 194 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:25.500 you can't forget all these things. You've had, you know, the, 195 00:12:25.560 --> 00:12:27.140 the reader is really involved in that. 196 00:12:27.220 --> 00:12:31.250 I thought that was a very good thing to do to a relationship from a craft point 197 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:34.250 of view in the middle of what I might otherwise be. 198 00:12:35.430 --> 00:12:38.570 And they lived happily ever after, you know, right. Keep, 199 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.930 keep putting the grit in the relationship so that it can move on and become 200 00:12:43.170 --> 00:12:44.730 actually even deeper as a result. 201 00:12:45.870 --> 00:12:49.850And they, um, you know, they have a lot of ups and downs, um, you know,202 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:54.240 as they both kind of adjust to the relationship and, you know, 203 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:58.040 Sean has always wanted, um, and you know, 204 00:12:58.040 --> 00:13:01.280 he very much did believe and does believe he wanted an equal, 205 00:13:01.470 --> 00:13:04.320 he's not wanting what the rest of the pack wants him to have, 206 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.670 which is a very submissive, um, uh, <affirmative>, uh, 207 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:11.710 mate partner, you know, who's going to just follow orders. 208 00:13:11.770 --> 00:13:14.470 He wanted someone to stand beside him. Um, 209 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:16.550 but that's all well and good in theory, 210 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.430 until he does get someone who wants to either stand in front of him or, 211 00:13:20.430 --> 00:13:22.430 or stand beside him or stand in front of him. Um, 212 00:13:22.430 --> 00:13:25.990 and then he's got to try to figure out, you know, exactly what that means. Um, 213 00:13:26.650 --> 00:13:31.180 you know, and Alice isn't ever going to be anybody's, um, you know, he's, 214 00:13:31.180 --> 00:13:34.900 she's not gonna be bossed around, um, too, so there's a lot of dynamics there. 215 00:13:35.560 --> 00:13:37.260 Uh, so you have to put your relat, you know, your, 216 00:13:37.370 --> 00:13:40.740 your relationship through some ups and downs and, and, uh, 217 00:13:40.790 --> 00:13:44.660 cause I think that's realistic. You know, I don't know any relationship, 218 00:13:44.790 --> 00:13:47.730 that's all sunshine and roses, you know, from day one, 219 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:52.090 you're gonna run into problems. You're gonna run into differences of, 220 00:13:52.150 --> 00:13:56.170 of opinion. Um, especially when you have two people who have, you know, 221 00:13:56.230 --> 00:14:01.090 are so kind of set in their ways, you know, so above all, 222 00:14:01.130 --> 00:14:05.160 I wanted it to be a realistic series, like series, you know, 223 00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:09.720 I want my heroin to be relatable. Um, and, um, 224 00:14:10.110 --> 00:14:14.120 realistic. I want the relationships, the, the mysteries, the drama, 225 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:19.080 it all to feel like all things that make sense, all things that are relatable, 226 00:14:19.310 --> 00:14:20.560 even though it's, you know, 227 00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:22.910 there's magic and all sorts of other creatures around, like, 228 00:14:22.910 --> 00:14:24.830 I still want people to, to read it and feel like, yeah, 229 00:14:24.830 --> 00:14:26.150 this is something that would really happen. 230 00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:30.270And just to, uh, help people find these books, the,231 00:14:30.290 --> 00:14:34.870 the title sequence is heart of, so heart of matters and so on. 232 00:14:34.890 --> 00:14:38.310 And so when I say shadows, I'm referring to the book called heart of shadows. 233 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.380 Just if you're looking, if you're Googling it now, that's how define them. 234 00:14:42.650 --> 00:14:44.260It's a, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.235 00:14:44.780 --> 00:14:47.700I was going to ask you, um, when you write,236 00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:52.280 so I'm now gonna actually sort of ask you to think about the process. Do you, 237 00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:54.480 you said there's a, like a long arc you've been working on, 238 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.040 is this something that you sat down and sketched out? 239 00:14:57.060 --> 00:15:01.960 So in a drawer there's the entire plot of the entire series is 240 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.720 written down or are you someone who, um, is a discovery writer? 241 00:15:05.900 --> 00:15:10.390 You may have a vague idea, but you write into the dark. How do you approach it? 242 00:15:11.010 --> 00:15:14.390Ooh, annoying answer. A little of both. <laugh> um,243 00:15:14.870 --> 00:15:19.070 I definitely sketched it out cuz I was planning a long series. Um, 244 00:15:19.210 --> 00:15:23.710 the current plan is 12 books. Um, it, it went from 10 to 12. Um, 245 00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:27.950 had to do a little bit of growth because that's the discovery part. Um, 246 00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:32.620 you can plan all you want, but characters for me are, are living, 247 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.140 living things. And so they will do and say things that I didn't see coming. 248 00:15:37.880 --> 00:15:38.700 And then you have to, 249 00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:43.500 you have to work with that <laugh> so I definitely sketched out kind of the 250 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.780 arc. Um, I have definite plans for like, 251 00:15:46.850 --> 00:15:50.650 what's the gonna be the mystery going to be in each book. Um, 252 00:15:50.650 --> 00:15:55.210 and then how is that gonna relate to, um, I kind of have the, the, 253 00:15:55.490 --> 00:16:00.410 I guess three main over, um, overarching plot lines, you know, the deal, the, 254 00:16:00.410 --> 00:16:03.010 the conflict with the main antagonist, um, 255 00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:08.480 Alice's personal development and growth and then her relat her personal 256 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.960 relationship. Um, yeah, so. 257 00:16:11.910 --> 00:16:12.743Yeah,258 00:16:13.060 --> 00:16:17.440 the family she built the route around her is it becomes a kind of story in 259 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:22.360 itself who, who becomes part of that? The cl her, her ma family, not. 260 00:16:25.170 --> 00:16:27.310The born family is a problem. <laugh> yeah.261 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.070Yeah. So yeah, a problem. So, um,262 00:16:31.660 --> 00:16:35.310 when you set out, I dunno, if you can remember what it was like to think it up, 263 00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:38.390 did you start with Alice as your character or did you come, 264 00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:42.860 come up with the situation and then think who's the character to carry the 265 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:43.693 story? 266 00:16:44.290 --> 00:16:47.140Well, um, it's kind of, it's an interesting, um,267 00:16:47.140 --> 00:16:51.500 and I do remember actually I remember the moment it happened. Um, in fact, um, 268 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:52.900 I was sitting out on my porch, 269 00:16:53.020 --> 00:16:55.780 I have this lovely screen porch overlook over her and I was sitting out there 270 00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:59.340 and a sentence popped into my head. Um, 271 00:16:59.400 --> 00:17:03.770 and it ended up being the first sentence of the blurb of heart of malice, um, 272 00:17:03.770 --> 00:17:06.610 or what would become heart of malice, which was, um, 273 00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:10.090 the first time Moses Murphy's granddaughter killed on his orders. 274 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:15.370 She was six years old. That sentence popped into my head. 275 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.800 Um, you know, some people say call it the call it a muse, some P I don't, 276 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:23.000 you know, it just, it just, it, that sentence fully formed popped into my head. 277 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.360 So I actually met Moses before I met Alice. 278 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:30.000 Um, because in that sentence, 279 00:17:30.520 --> 00:17:35.080 I sort of imagining who he was and then who his granddaughter would be. 280 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:36.800 And it sort of, it just grew out of that. 281 00:17:37.120 --> 00:17:40.590 I envisioned Alice as the granddaughter and then the whole, 282 00:17:42.090 --> 00:17:45.310 the whole setup just sort of grew out of that moment. Um, 283 00:17:45.570 --> 00:17:47.350 it was a very magical moment. <laugh>. 284 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.070Absolutely. And also looking at your biography,285 00:17:52.850 --> 00:17:57.390 you have a background in forensic criminology, 286 00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:01.230 which seems to me to connect to the private eye story. Would I be, 287 00:18:01.370 --> 00:18:03.190 cuz there's quite a lot of detail, um, 288 00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:08.100 in a fantasy form of like tracing and um, 289 00:18:08.310 --> 00:18:09.580 uncovering crimes. 290 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.620 Is that something that you've picked up from your reading of real world 291 00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:14.963 criminology? 292 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.500Oh, definitely. I mean, I think it comes the, the,293 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.740 the college courses were an outgrowth of my lifelong fascination with mysteries. 294 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.210 Um, part like not just putting the clues together, 295 00:18:27.210 --> 00:18:29.650 which I personally find amazing. Um, 296 00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:33.410 and Alice is living my dream life as a private investigator. Um, 297 00:18:34.030 --> 00:18:34.970 but as an undergrad, 298 00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:39.890 I was really seriously interested in pursuing criminal 299 00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:42.330 profiling, um, as a career. Um, 300 00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:46.160 I would've liked to have gone to work for the FBI, um, and, 301 00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:51.240 and done that. And so I took a lot of, um, criminal justice courses, 302 00:18:51.700 --> 00:18:53.720 uh, as an undergrad and of course I was an English major. 303 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:57.800 So the instructors always thought I had accidentally enrolled in the wrong 304 00:18:57.800 --> 00:18:59.120 class, uh, 305 00:18:59.120 --> 00:19:01.720 because they would be looking down their rosters and they would be a hundred 306 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:06.870 criminal justice majors and then me the English major. Um, um, but I had, 307 00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:08.830 I was lucky enough to take courses with, um, 308 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:13.790 all instructors who were actual former or current law enforcement and, 309 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:18.830 um, a couple of courses with an actual practicing forensic psychologist, um, 310 00:19:18.830 --> 00:19:23.340 whose job it is to go to prisons and secure wards and talk to 311 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:29.580 talk to serial killers and talk to, you know, uh, all kinds of, of people. 312 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.820 And so I, I got to absorb all of that real world knowledge, um, 313 00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:37.700 through courses like death investigation and serial killers and, uh, 314 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:41.970 forensic CRI or forensic psychology. And I, you know, 315 00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:44.050 I ended up not going that route professionally, 316 00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:49.290 mainly because as a very empathetic person, I thought it will be, 317 00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:53.210 it will be too difficult day in and day out, uh, 318 00:19:53.210 --> 00:19:56.570 particularly to interact with, um, you know, 319 00:19:56.570 --> 00:20:00.120 family members of people who, you know, who lost their lives. 320 00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:04.000 I just thought that would take too much of a, a toll on me personally. Um, 321 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.760 but it re it remains a real fascination. Um, and so I feel like, um, I, 322 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.360 I definitely wanna use that, you know, 323 00:20:11.360 --> 00:20:14.800 in the investigations as Alice's not just following physical clues, 324 00:20:14.800 --> 00:20:19.750 but trying to figure out motivations and understanding, not just the, 325 00:20:19.770 --> 00:20:21.710 how, um, and the, when, 326 00:20:21.710 --> 00:20:25.700 but the why of why people do the things they do. 327 00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:29.900 Because I think that's a fundamental question that we all ask ourselves. Um, 328 00:20:30.100 --> 00:20:34.980 whenever we read about any, any particular case, um, is why did this happen? 329 00:20:35.800 --> 00:20:40.170 Um, what was this person's motivation? So I want that to be, you know, 330 00:20:40.170 --> 00:20:42.010 sort of at the forefront of the stories as well. 331 00:20:43.330 --> 00:20:44.210I mean, hopefully most,332 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:49.280 most people are fortunate enough not to experience this in their 333 00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:51.640 own lives. I mean, we all know it's a possibility, 334 00:20:51.860 --> 00:20:54.720 but whilst when you don't have it, 335 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:59.760 you can have a certain comfort blanket around you that it's happens to 336 00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:03.240 other people, whereas you are writing a character to whom it has happened. 337 00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:08.670 Do you find it a difficult place to go when you are writing Alice 338 00:21:09.050 --> 00:21:13.030 and her traumatic backgrounds? Um. 339 00:21:13.330 --> 00:21:17.430Yes, I really do. Um, I struggle particularly in,340 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:21.870 during the writing of shadows, I will say. Um, because that is, uh, to me, 341 00:21:21.930 --> 00:21:23.830 the darkest of the books, you know, 342 00:21:24.100 --> 00:21:27.940 a lot happens to her a lot happens that kind of, um, 343 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:33.660 you know, uh, calls back to mind, you know, what she went through, you know, 344 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:38.500 during her childhood, as she was growing up, um, after her escape. Um, 345 00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:40.540 and while she's been in hiding, um, 346 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.970 not just the darkness of the people that she has to interact with, uh, 347 00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:47.850 in that book, which are, you know, sort of the, the darkest. Um, 348 00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:54.690 but I feel like I, on the one hand, I like, I like tapping into those, 349 00:21:55.970 --> 00:21:59.560 those, um, again, it's about relatability, right? And it's a, 350 00:21:59.560 --> 00:22:02.310 like tapping into fears that I think a lot of us have, uh, 351 00:22:02.310 --> 00:22:03.470 that feeling of helplessness, 352 00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:08.430 that feeling of wanting to help and protect those around us and not always 353 00:22:08.430 --> 00:22:10.750 being able to do that. Um, 354 00:22:11.330 --> 00:22:14.790 and I think that's a lot of what Atlas has to go through. Um, you know, 355 00:22:15.050 --> 00:22:17.550 and especially like at the end of heart of malice, you know, 356 00:22:17.550 --> 00:22:19.980 that I won't spoil anything, but, you know, 357 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:24.100 the end of that book carries over into the next book because she's struggling 358 00:22:24.530 --> 00:22:28.420 with what she witnessed and ha and was a, uh, was a part of, 359 00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:32.220 and that's another thing I wanted Alice to be in terms of relatability. 360 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:36.380 I I've read some series where the main character goes through really difficult. 361 00:22:37.330 --> 00:22:40.970 Like she loses someone or she goes through a really traumatic event. And then, 362 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.690 because she's a strong character, you know, 363 00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:45.930 she just goes on as if it doesn't bother her. 364 00:22:45.990 --> 00:22:50.940 And that really bugged me cuz I that's not how, that's not how we, we, 365 00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:52.980 we operate as human beings. Like we can't, 366 00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:56.100 we don't brush things off that easily. So, you know, 367 00:22:56.100 --> 00:22:59.730 when Alice goes through something, you know, it's, you still see the, 368 00:23:00.510 --> 00:23:03.410 the ripple effect, not just in that book, 369 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:06.050 but even in subsequent books as she's trying to deal with it. 370 00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:10.930So yeah, also, also in shadows, you, um,371 00:23:10.930 --> 00:23:13.010 depart from your usual more, um, 372 00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:18.200 straightforward timeline orientated plot structure, and you break it up, 373 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:23.080 uh, in order to, I suppose it gets a sense of the disorientation, 374 00:23:23.080 --> 00:23:26.520 but also it's a way of telling a really difficult story because you have other 375 00:23:26.520 --> 00:23:30.280 moments where it's before this is, you know, the, 376 00:23:31.020 --> 00:23:32.560 you don't have a, like unrelenting, 377 00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:35.630 big slab of negativity sitting in the middle, 378 00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:39.030 which would've been the alternative. Yeah. 379 00:23:39.330 --> 00:23:41.830And, you know, from an author's standpoint, you know,380 00:23:41.830 --> 00:23:46.320 that book was a challenge to write, um, because it was, um, 381 00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:50.720 the first one I wrote where the point of view changes depending on, 382 00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:53.240 but switches this back and forth between the two main characters, 383 00:23:53.910 --> 00:23:57.760 because really that's, as I was planning out the book, I was like, 384 00:23:57.760 --> 00:24:01.960 that's the only thing that makes sense to tell the story is to have 385 00:24:02.510 --> 00:24:04.190 part of the book told by Sean. 386 00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:07.270 And part of it told by Alice because of what's going on. 387 00:24:07.770 --> 00:24:10.910 And then it didn't really work very well when I was planning it out to, 388 00:24:11.010 --> 00:24:15.310 to tell it simply in a linear timeline, um, 389 00:24:15.340 --> 00:24:16.870 because of the things that happened. 390 00:24:17.050 --> 00:24:21.980 So I felt like the way I put it together made the most sense to me. 391 00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:26.980 Um, and, and I tried to be very clear with headings and so forth, 392 00:24:27.050 --> 00:24:31.820 like where we were in the timeline and you know, who was telling the story and, 393 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:32.660 and so forth. 394 00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:36.340 I really honestly don't think it would've worked very well if I had just told it 395 00:24:37.510 --> 00:24:42.220 linearly. Um, and only from Alice's point of view. So, you know, 396 00:24:42.360 --> 00:24:45.780 and it's good as it matter, you wanna stretch, you know, you wanna stretch, um, 397 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:50.580 yourself from time to time and challenge yourself and I'd already written in 398 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.940 Sean's head, um, 399 00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:56.220 because there's a Nove called just for one night that retails part of heart of 400 00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:57.860 malice from Sean's point of view. 401 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.970 So I wanted to kind of continue with that and, um, tell, 402 00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:05.810 tell part of that story from Sean's perspective, 403 00:25:06.070 --> 00:25:09.610 as he's also going through the difficulty of, 404 00:25:11.070 --> 00:25:15.650 you know, start almost, almost starting over, um, with Alice, um, 405 00:25:15.650 --> 00:25:17.560 and you know, trying to help her. 406 00:25:17.820 --> 00:25:21.960 And I also felt like his impressions of who she was 407 00:25:23.580 --> 00:25:28.400 in this particular situation, without all those traumatic memories, uh, 408 00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:30.480 shaping how she thinks and reacts. 409 00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:34.880 I wanted to also get that perspective across like how he's reacting to this 410 00:25:35.070 --> 00:25:36.190 version of Alice. 411 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.310Thank you for listening to part one of this week's podcast.412 00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:46.910 Come back next week to hear part two. 413 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:49.670 Thank you for listening to. 414 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:01.340Thanks for listening to mythmakers podcast brought to you by the415 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:06.220 Oxford center for fantasy visit Oxford center for fantasy.org 416 00:26:06.360 --> 00:26:07.460 to join in the fun. 417 00:26:08.090 --> 00:26:12.620 Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus 418 00:26:12.870 --> 00:26:15.170 visit our shop for great gifts. 419 00:26:15.760 --> 00:26:20.290 Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts. 420 00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:21.130Worldwide.