Alice Worth Series and Writing Urban Fantasy - Part 1

0:06 Hello, and welcome to myth makers. Myth makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy. My name is Julia Golden. I'm an author, but also a director of the center. And today I am joined by a special guest from America, Lisa Edmonds, who is well best known to me for her Alice Worth's series. Now, before we talk about that, uh, Lisa, perhaps you might want to take us on your own personal story of your journey to becoming an author. What happened before to get you to this point?

0:46 Um, well, Both my parents were librarians, so I'll start with that. Um, and when both your parents were librarians, you grow up in libraries, you read a ton. Yes. Um, you, so from a very young age, um, my dad was also very nerdy, so I grew up watching reruns of the original star Trek. Um, so I grew up on science fiction and fantasy and mysteries, um, started with Nancy drew <laugh>, uh, when I was little. Um, and then in my teen years, I, um, kind of graduated to cozy mysteries and hard boil detective fiction. Um, and I especially really loved, uh, private investigator. Uh, but I also read a lot of, uh, police procedurals, like ed McBain. Um, so I was reading a lot of Sue Grafton, um, who wrote the alphabet mysteries.

1:39 I know that's a little bit out of the purview of myth makers, but, um, and, uh, Sarah Persky who wrote the VI Warshawsky books, um, there was a movie maker of that. Um, so I just kind of read a lot of genre fiction. Um, I kind of envisioned myself writing really science fiction. Um, so it was a bit of a surprise, um, that I started writing urban fantasy, but, um, I discovered the genre through Kim Harrison's books. Um, the Rachel Morgan Hollow's books, and it was sort of like a gateway drug <laugh>. Um, after that I just started reading every urban fantasy series. I could get my hands on, um, and it was like the perfect melding of the science fiction, the fantasy, um, and the mysteries, um, because every book in an urban fantasy tends to have some kind of mystery to solve, you know, what kind of creature is this who's causing all this, this, this disruption. Um, and then you have these wonderful characters that, you know, the typical urban fantasy heroin has a lot of snark. Um, you know, she's a, she tends to be a self rescuing princess, which is, um, also a great, um, you know, creates great storylines and I just love imagination.

2:59 So I love the world building. So, um, all that kind of came together and, uh, a couple of years ago, I guess, well, it's been more than a couple of years ago now, but, uh, back in about 2015, I thought, you know, well, maybe I could try my hand at this. Um, so I, you know, developed a character and a world and yeah, and that's how it all got started. Did your journey on the way include the JD Rob stories? Cuz they were one of my, uh, entryway into that kind of sci-fi police procedural. I've been following it all the way. Cause I think she started writing those in the nineties. Didn't she? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah, I's been around a really long time. Not running series, but that was the thing that showed me, um, the way that you could mash up genres of something which was familiar, you know, contemporary police procedurals, and then, but then put it 50 years in the future.

3:52 I think the only where catching up aren't we with the historical period she's chosen. Well, and I also really like the Scandinavian, um, sort of psychological thriller mysteries as well. Um, like the Hening man ankle series. Okay. And um, oh gosh, uh, the Kenneth brag, they turned it into a TV series, Kenneth Brown, um, and a bunch of other like the there's just nobody that does that. Dark, psychological really twisted <laugh>, um, mysteries like Norwegian and Swedish, um, and Danish authors. So I feel like my series is like an amalgamation of all of that. Um, Atlas is a little, um, a little bit Kinsey Milone who is, uh, Sue Grafton's, uh, PI and a little bit via Warshawsky. Uh, but then also, um, influenced by, you know, all the fantasy and all of the, um, the mysteries and of, you know, sort of across all the sub genres sort of all <laugh> put together in one body.

4:55 Yeah. Talking had this, um, thing he wrote about the Coldron of stories, the idea that all these other elements from everything you've read and the traditions have go into this and then you label out your own version of it. And then of course I would say Alice is definitely her own character. You know, she may have had these seeds in her origins, but I love her as, uh, the character she's grown to be. So looking at the Alice worst series, um, for those who haven't yet read it and I'm stressing the yet <laugh> uh, it's in the urban fantasy genre. Would you like to give us a little kind of taste of what they will find if they start reading the series?

5:37 Sure. Um, you know, uh, my particular world is sort of it's, it's very similar Alice's world is very similar to our own, uh, with the addition of, you know, supernatural and paranormal creatures and beings. Um, so there are shifters and vampires and Googles, um, and things like that. And so I, I like, uh, my preference on urban fantasy is like our, um, like our world, but with these interesting twists, um, excuse me, I also enjoy urban fantasy that steps much farther away from our own world, like, um, a bishops, the others series, which is very, very different.

6:17 Um, so I sort of imagined, um, what would have to change in our world. Um, if we suddenly, you know, had these creatures walking among us. And so I envisioned like, well, there would have to be like a federal agency dedicated to sort of tracking, monitoring and serving as law enforcement, um, who are set up for interactions with creatures that aren't human don't think like humans and aren't, um, vulnerable to the same things that we are. Um, and then sort of just, it, it sort of grew from there. Um, so Alice herself is, uh, a ma so she has magic. She has what I call natural magic. So, um, uh, air and earth magic, um, as well as a few other abilities that kind of develop throughout the series. Um, and she is a private investigator in my world. Um, a ma private investigator spec, uh, sort of specializes in supernatural and paranormal type mysteries and almost all of her cases involve solving a supernatural related mystery.

7:22 Um, she has a ghost sidekick <laugh> um, Malcolm, his name is Malcolm, right? <laugh> yeah, his name is Malcolm. Um, he is, I mean, he calls, he calls himself the comic relief in the partnership. Um, you know, he's a lot of fun. Um, he tends to be a crowd favorite. Um, and, but. In some ways he's her anchor. Like he's the one who very much sort of the conscience in some cases, isn't he, he corrects. Yeah. You do always see him doing cuz Alice had the, had a really not to spoil anything, but she had a very difficult and uh, traumatic childhood and upbringing. And so there are a lot of times where her reactions are very much shaped by her past and Malcolm in some and a few other characters come in as like her Gemini cricket. And I was sort of like Alice <laugh>, you know, think about this a little bit. Um, and you see her changing over the course of the books, um, and adjusting and you know, becoming a little bit more, well, she calls it a little bit more human, um, learning how to interact with others and how to love, how to love others and care for others and how to let them care and love her.

8:36 Um, which is a difficult journey for her, you know, considering she didn't really have that growing up. Um, so each book they're not, they're not designed to be read, um, as standalones, each book contains its own story, its own mystery, but there are overarching stories. There's a, there's a major antagonist that everything is sort of building up to her, dealing with there's storylines that run throughout each book. So although each book has a self-contained mystery for her to solve because she's a PI, um, you would wanna probably start with one <laugh> and then, uh, go forward. It's not, you know, not really designed to be read out of order. Yeah. She's also in, I wouldn't call it a love triangle. That's the wrong word because there's another side to it, but she's sort of in the middle of pools between a shifter, um, friend, a very close friend mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, lover, but also somebody within the vampire community who is very interested in her, but also the major community. So I there's three points. It's not really.

9:36 Right. And then in the federal agency, you know, a federal agent as well, well, there we go. Um, it's, you know, there's, there's definitely a romance angle to it as there is with a lot of urban fantasy, but I, you know, I definitely wanted, I didn't want to get into the love triangle thing, um, uh, too much, but there definitely is a little bit of, um, what's the word like there, there's a, uh, like she's trying to find the person who like, uh, you know, who completes her, who supports her, who compliments her, that's the word I was like for who compliments her the best. Um, and you know, there's a lot of power plays going on too, as you know, as you would expect with any, any time that you have, um, you know, you have a, like the vampires they've been, they have hundreds of years old, they they're all about the power. They're all about the, what can somebody do for me? What benefits me. Um, and that's not necessarily the type, the type of partnership relationship, uh, that someone like Atlas would be interested in.

10:40 So I think what I was most interested in is exploring power dynamics in personal relationships and, you know, letting Alice sort of figure out what's the healthiest type of relationship to be in. Yeah. Um, one trope in urban fantasy and paranormal romance that I'm less of a fan of is the ones where you have a, um, a real, like difference in power and you have one partner asserting that dominance over the other. Um, I mean, I think there's room in any genre for all kinds of, you know, types of relationships, but I definitely wanted to focus on a more, a healthier type of relationship.

11:23 So I think that is an exploration of what's a healthy relationship. What's going to be mutually beneficial. Um, what love really is, um, as opposed to what can this person do for me? How can they advance my, my goals? You know, which isn't to me a healthy relationship. Yeah. And because you've got a long series that you are working on, that the, for example, the main central relationship with Sean does become more and more important to the reader as you go on. And I, I found it really gutting in, I think it's, um, shadows, uh, where she loses.

12:07 I think it's not too much a spoiled to say that she's Casa loses her memory. I think it's in the blurb. So I'm allowed to say that. Yeah, it's on. Yeah. So it's a, a reset of her relationship with Sean, but it's, it is absolutely, it's just terrible to see her. No, you can't forget all these things. You've had, you know, the, the reader is really involved in that. I thought that was a very good thing to do to a relationship from a craft point of view in the middle of what I might otherwise be. And they lived happily ever after, you know, right. Keep, keep putting the grit in the relationship so that it can move on and become actually even deeper as a result. And they, um, you know, they have a lot of ups and downs, um, you know, as they both kind of adjust to the relationship and, you know, Sean has always wanted, um, and you know, he very much did believe and does believe he wanted an equal, he's not wanting what the rest of the pack wants him to have, which is a very submissive, um, uh, <affirmative>, uh, mate partner, you know, who's going to just follow orders.

13:11 He wanted someone to stand beside him. Um, but that's all well and good in theory, until he does get someone who wants to either stand in front of him or, or stand beside him or stand in front of him. Um, and then he's got to try to figure out, you know, exactly what that means. Um, you know, and Alice isn't ever going to be anybody's, um, you know, he's, she's not gonna be bossed around, um, too, so there's a lot of dynamics there. Uh, so you have to put your relat, you know, your, your relationship through some ups and downs and, and, uh, cause I think that's realistic. You know, I don't know any relationship, that's all sunshine and roses, you know, from day one, you're gonna run into problems. You're gonna run into differences of, of opinion. Um, especially when you have two people who have, you know, are so kind of set in their ways, you know, so above all, I wanted it to be a realistic series, like series, you know, I want my heroin to be relatable. Um, and, um, realistic. I want the relationships, the, the mysteries, the drama, it all to feel like all things that make sense, all things that are relatable, even though it's, you know, there's magic and all sorts of other creatures around, like, I still want people to, to read it and feel like, yeah, this is something that would really happen.

14:27 And just to, uh, help people find these books, the, the title sequence is heart of, so heart of matters and so on. And so when I say shadows, I'm referring to the book called heart of shadows. Just if you're looking, if you're Googling it now, that's how define them. It's a, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I was going to ask you, um, when you write, so I'm now gonna actually sort of ask you to think about the process. Do you, you said there's a, like a long arc you've been working on, is this something that you sat down and sketched out? So in a drawer there's the entire plot of the entire series is written down or are you someone who, um, is a discovery writer? You may have a vague idea, but you write into the dark. How do you approach it?

15:11 Ooh, annoying answer. A little of both. <laugh> um, I definitely sketched it out cuz I was planning a long series. Um, the current plan is 12 books. Um, it, it went from 10 to 12. Um, had to do a little bit of growth because that's the discovery part. Um, you can plan all you want, but characters for me are, are living, living things. And so they will do and say things that I didn't see coming. And then you have to, you have to work with that <laugh> so I definitely sketched out kind of the arc. Um, I have definite plans for like, what's the gonna be the mystery going to be in each book. Um, and then how is that gonna relate to, um, I kind of have the, the, I guess three main over, um, overarching plot lines, you know, the deal, the, the conflict with the main antagonist, um, Alice's personal development and growth and then her relat her personal relationship. Um, yeah, so.

16:11 Yeah, the family she built the route around her is it becomes a kind of story in itself who, who becomes part of that? The cl her, her ma family, not. The born family is a problem. <laugh> yeah. Yeah. So yeah, a problem. So, um, when you set out, I dunno, if you can remember what it was like to think it up, did you start with Alice as your character or did you come, come up with the situation and then think who's the character to carry the story? Well, um, it's kind of, it's an interesting, um, and I do remember actually I remember the moment it happened. Um, in fact, um, I was sitting out on my porch, I have this lovely screen porch overlook over her and I was sitting out there and a sentence popped into my head. Um, and it ended up being the first sentence of the blurb of heart of malice, um, or what would become heart of malice, which was, um, the first time Moses Murphy's granddaughter killed on his orders.

17:10 She was six years old. That sentence popped into my head. Um, you know, some people say call it the call it a muse, some P I don't, you know, it just, it just, it, that sentence fully formed popped into my head. So I actually met Moses before I met Alice. Um, because in that sentence, I sort of imagining who he was and then who his granddaughter would be. And it sort of, it just grew out of that. I envisioned Alice as the granddaughter and then the whole, the whole setup just sort of grew out of that moment. Um, it was a very magical moment. <laugh>. Absolutely. And also looking at your biography, you have a background in forensic criminology, which seems to me to connect to the private eye story. Would I be, cuz there's quite a lot of detail, um, in a fantasy form of like tracing and um, uncovering crimes.

18:10 Is that something that you've picked up from your reading of real world criminology? Oh, definitely. I mean, I think it comes the, the, the college courses were an outgrowth of my lifelong fascination with mysteries. Um, part like not just putting the clues together, which I personally find amazing. Um, and Alice is living my dream life as a private investigator. Um, but as an undergrad, I was really seriously interested in pursuing criminal profiling, um, as a career. Um, I would've liked to have gone to work for the FBI, um, and, and done that. And so I took a lot of, um, criminal justice courses, uh, as an undergrad and of course I was an English major.

18:54 So the instructors always thought I had accidentally enrolled in the wrong class, uh, because they would be looking down their rosters and they would be a hundred criminal justice majors and then me the English major. Um, um, but I had, I was lucky enough to take courses with, um, all instructors who were actual former or current law enforcement and, um, a couple of courses with an actual practicing forensic psychologist, um, whose job it is to go to prisons and secure wards and talk to talk to serial killers and talk to, you know, uh, all kinds of, of people. And so I, I got to absorb all of that real world knowledge, um, through courses like death investigation and serial killers and, uh, forensic CRI or forensic psychology. And I, you know, I ended up not going that route professionally, mainly because as a very empathetic person, I thought it will be, it will be too difficult day in and day out, uh, particularly to interact with, um, you know, family members of people who, you know, who lost their lives.

20:00 I just thought that would take too much of a, a toll on me personally. Um, but it re it remains a real fascination. Um, and so I feel like, um, I, I definitely wanna use that, you know, in the investigations as Alice's not just following physical clues, but trying to figure out motivations and understanding, not just the, how, um, and the, when, but the why of why people do the things they do. Because I think that's a fundamental question that we all ask ourselves. Um, whenever we read about any, any particular case, um, is why did this happen? Um, what was this person's motivation? So I want that to be, you know, sort of at the forefront of the stories as well.

20:43 I mean, hopefully most, most people are fortunate enough not to experience this in their own lives. I mean, we all know it's a possibility, but whilst when you don't have it, you can have a certain comfort blanket around you that it's happens to other people, whereas you are writing a character to whom it has happened. Do you find it a difficult place to go when you are writing Alice and her traumatic backgrounds? Um. Yes, I really do. Um, I struggle particularly in, during the writing of shadows, I will say. Um, because that is, uh, to me, the darkest of the books, you know, a lot happens to her a lot happens that kind of, um, you know, uh, calls back to mind, you know, what she went through, you know, during her childhood, as she was growing up, um, after her escape. Um, and while she's been in hiding, um, not just the darkness of the people that she has to interact with, uh, in that book, which are, you know, sort of the, the darkest. Um, but I feel like I, on the one hand, I like, I like tapping into those, those, um, again, it's about relatability, right? And it's a, like tapping into fears that I think a lot of us have, uh, that feeling of helplessness, that feeling of wanting to help and protect those around us and not always being able to do that. Um, and I think that's a lot of what Atlas has to go through. Um, you know,

22:15 and especially like at the end of heart of malice, you know, that I won't spoil anything, but, you know, the end of that book carries over into the next book because she's struggling with what she witnessed and ha and was a, uh, was a part of, and that's another thing I wanted Alice to be in terms of relatability. I I've read some series where the main character goes through really difficult. Like she loses someone or she goes through a really traumatic event. And then, because she's a strong character, you know, she just goes on as if it doesn't bother her. And that really bugged me cuz I that's not how, that's not how we, we, we operate as human beings. Like we can't, we don't brush things off that easily. So, you know, when Alice goes through something, you know, it's, you still see the, the ripple effect, not just in that book, but even in subsequent books as she's trying to deal with it.

23:07 So yeah, also, also in shadows, you, um, depart from your usual more, um, straightforward timeline orientated plot structure, and you break it up, uh, in order to, I suppose it gets a sense of the disorientation, but also it's a way of telling a really difficult story because you have other moments where it's before this is, you know, the, you don't have a, like unrelenting, big slab of negativity sitting in the middle, which would've been the alternative. Yeah. And, you know, from an author's standpoint, you know, that book was a challenge to write, um, because it was, um, the first one I wrote where the point of view changes depending on, but switches this back and forth between the two main characters, because really that's, as I was planning out the book, I was like, that's the only thing that makes sense to tell the story is to have part of the book told by Sean.

24:04 And part of it told by Alice because of what's going on. And then it didn't really work very well when I was planning it out to, to tell it simply in a linear timeline, um, because of the things that happened. So I felt like the way I put it together made the most sense to me. Um, and, and I tried to be very clear with headings and so forth, like where we were in the timeline and you know, who was telling the story and, and so forth. I really honestly don't think it would've worked very well if I had just told it linearly. Um, and only from Alice's point of view. So, you know, and it's good as it matter, you wanna stretch, you know, you wanna stretch, um, yourself from time to time and challenge yourself and I'd already written in Sean's head, um, because there's a Nove called just for one night that retails part of heart of malice from Sean's point of view.

24:58 So I wanted to kind of continue with that and, um, tell, tell part of that story from Sean's perspective, as he's also going through the difficulty of, you know, start almost, almost starting over, um, with Alice, um, and you know, trying to help her. And I also felt like his impressions of who she was in this particular situation, without all those traumatic memories, uh, shaping how she thinks and reacts. I wanted to also get that perspective across like how he's reacting to this version of Alice.

25:40 Thank you for listening to part one of this week's podcast. Come back next week to hear part two. Thank you for listening to. Thanks for listening to mythmakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford center for fantasy visit Oxford center for fantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

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