A Talking Balrog? The Big Fantasy News From Films to TV to Books

0:05 Hello and welcome to Myth Makers. Myth Makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives, brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm an author and I run the activities of our little centre. And today I am joined by my favourite podcast partner from over the other side of the pond. That's Jacob Rennecker. So hi, Jacob. Hello. Hello. Right, today we're doing a bit of a catch up because we haven't spoken over the summer. And we thought we would deal with a couple of topics. The first is to look at what's been going on in the cinemas, because that seemed to be a big place for fantasy over the summer.

0:48 Then we're going to have a look at what's happening in the TV in the autumn and to the winter. And then we're going to have a think about books. So we're covering quite a lot today. So let's first of all start with the big film of the summer. Did you go and see The Odyssey in IMAX or would you just go to your local cinema? Yeah. I did see it in IMAX. I made a trek to see it. It wasn't on the film, 70mm film. It was the digital version. Sadly, it was far too far of a trek to go see it, as it was the platonic ideal of seeing it would be in IMAX.

1:28 70 millimeter film imax so it's the the next best thing yeah so i saw it very large screen but it did i but i think it was worth yeah it was i think it was worth seeing in that kind of like massive uh format the the spectacle and scope of the of the story i think uh rewarded that kind of viewing Yeah, I've already talked about my views of the Odyssey in various outlets. But let's think about it as the original fantasy. How did you feel they managed with the... Because obviously there's the war and the politics of the war and all that side of it. But how did you feel they managed with the fantasy elements like the magical creatures and the, you know, the sort of gods and that element of it?

2:12 Yeah, the fantastic, yeah, that was really an interesting part of the film. So anytime you're dealing with monsters, there's a chance that it can... move beyond the fantastic to the comical, just kind of because of the, you know, we don't typically encounter monsters in our communities unless you're living with a small child. So with, but in terms of like actual, you know, practical, so I appreciate the practical effects. And so like the Cyclops, for instance, rather than having, you know, kind of a comically large a strong creature with a large head and an eyeball plop right in the center, either like a very large eye, kind of comically large eye, having the eye kind of twisted sideways.

3:01 So you still had, so you could see it, and then the nose twisted. So it was a more, I felt it was a surprisingly realistic take on a cyclops. If your face was just kind of shifted, stretched and elongated, then it might make a little bit more sense to have. You're right. I hadn't thought of that. Basically doing a Picasso. Yeah, right. It's just come to me now what they were doing. I hadn't realized. Yeah. Yeah. And having it as like a, you know, normal proportions for, you know, somebody who's subsisting on sheep and, you know, cheese. So not like a, you know, beefy, large, kind of like giant-ish, titanic creature, but like I believe there was a shepherd, a giant shepherd with one eye.

3:51 So I thought, so I, so I appreciated that the, the, the effort to, to try with more practical, same thing with the, with kind of the giants. I can't remember the names of the creatures, but the armored, you know, the very large armored creatures. Yeah, I mean, they are. I mean, I think it is often referred to as the island of giants, isn't it? Yeah. I didn't really get, I didn't get why they put that in. Right. It was, I mean, it was great. It made great for trailers. It was a good, you know, just kind of like if you're going more. And so one of the things I think that it did do is capture the episodic nature well of the, of the Odyssey, right. So that it's, you know, he's, he's going from island, island, island.

4:34 And then, so, so yes, that the Cersei, the kind of more realistic take of Cersei with her, you know, kind of, Not just like magical transformation, you know, waving a wand or kind of a time lapse, you know, something sped up. Here the humans are now swine, but her kind of like massaging the creatures and making him is disturbing and also like... fantastic in the sense of fantasy, but also it provided a groundedness, a certain groundedness to that fantastical element. So the one that was hardest to pull off practically is the Scylla and Charybdis, where you kind of have to have, if there's a multi-headed character, serpent-like beast uh there there isn't too much you can do unless with with practical puppetry um but even then so that was the one that you know leaned most on cgi and was the least i think like grounded um realistically um for the you know for the many-headed monster but um but in terms of like the god the gods themselves and this is where and i want to hear what you're what you thought about this it's I know when I was talking with my wife about it, she saw, you know, Athena kind of appearing, almost haunting Odysseus as he's, as he's going the reveal at the end.

6:01 Spoilers. If you haven't seen the Odyssey, fingers in the air, start humming now. Yeah. Odysseus does make it back. But beyond that, he, so when the reveal, the flashback to the sack of Troy, that it's, you know, a priestess of Athena that is, that is killed before him. That is, is the face that Athena wears. And so what my wife interpreted that as saying like, this is just, you know, kind of like post-traumatic stress. And so he's, fabricating the voice of this God because he's haunted by something, a tragedy that he saw some sort of injustice.

6:44 And so that injustice, you know, slobbering an innocent in a temple was what was, was haunting him. Whereas I, like I saw the possibility that like, that this is the face that the goddess takes, uh, to communicate with him, the one that he would be most likely to pay attention to. So I think, so it's interesting in that, that I think you could see it both ways. They talked about the gods. You had, you know, like rumblings of, uh, with like Zeus, like Poseidon, the sea. So there was, so it was almost trying to have it both ways that like, yes, the gods exist and are causing these things, but also, but also maybe not, maybe these are just forces of nature and psychological breakdowns that occur.

7:28 So I think the fact that there's the possibility for both of those, I think, is interesting. And of course, as somebody who's more fantastically inclined, I'm looking for those moments of like, okay, there is actually the fantastic, the magical in this world. But the fact that there is another reading, another way to put those kind of pieces together, I think that's an indication of art that's worth seeing and talking about. If you can talk about it and have to talk through those things afterwards, I think it's a worthy piece of art that does its job in art. telling a story, not just like pounding home a lesson, but telling a story that's open to, you know, multiplicity of approaches, applications.

8:10 So yeah. So what did you think about the fantastic elements in the Odyssey, Julia? Yeah, no, Ashley, what you've just said about Athena, I found really helpful just then because I had assumed it was more in, like your wife, more as a psychological conversation he's having with himself. But of course, there is a sense in which the world is the world of the gods. You have Hades, you know, the world of the underworld, not Hades himself, but that kind of zone, clearly, which is an otherworldly place of the dead. So it has a supernatural element. And then, as you say, the killing of the Cyclops, that's why Poseidon is set against them.

8:54 Those kind of things. So this is Richard Nolan's version, because if you read the poem... The gods are one of the main set of characters in it. And if you think of another film that tackles the gods, something like the Percy Jackson film, there the gods are handled by reimagining them as larger-than-life versions of us, a kind of updated version. I think, aren't they on the top of the Empire State Building or something? Yes. So that probably works in...

9:36 I mean, Percy Jackson has a comedic adventure aspect to it, so it works within that. You don't take it too seriously. It's fun to see, I don't know, the Medusa turn up in a garden centre or whatever it is, an Aries on a bike. Yeah, but you can't, if you have too many gods walking around in a world which you're trying to take seriously, like the Odyssey, I think probably what he's done is something that suits a modern audience. But I like your explanation that you're supposed to understand it in two ways. It could be the god deciding this was the appropriate face. I think that works. Yeah, definitely.

10:17 And the other, but the... You mentioned that the whirlpool and the snakes for you was a letdown. For me, it's the sirens and it always is. Because sirens, guys, are not mermaid-y type women on a rock. No. No, if you look at Greek pottery and Greek ideas, the sirens are a version of a bird colony. And you'll see sirens with feathers and wings. And I was really hoping he would give us something unusual and different. The very first book I wrote was called The Secret of the Sirens, my first fantasy way back in 2006.

10:58 And at the beginning is a glossary. saying a siren is not a mermaid. That's a sea nymph. So I kind of, they didn't linger over what, because the sirens were kind of slightly misty and undefined in the background. And it was their song, which was supposed to be the thing that was foregrounded. But I was just a bit disappointed that they didn't read the, you know, they could have just like different. Anyway, So that's the Odyssey. What do you think it has done for that kind of swords and sandals fantasy? Do you think we're going to see a lot more of the Greek myth being, because you know how Hollywood follows a winner?

11:44 Are we going to have more of this? That's a good question. To a certain extent, it's never really left with Game of Thrones and then almost immediately after House of Dragons. House of Dragons is immediately following after that kind of classical fantasy. Lord of the Rings, something that we'll talk about a little bit later, that's either classical, medieval, pre-medieval fantasy, No, I'm going Greek. I'm going Iliad. I'm going, and probably Roman as well. You know, Jason and the Argonauts, Ariadne.

12:29 I mean, there's been a lot of, there's been a whole trend in novels. Yeah. Right, right. No, no, the reimagining, that's where I'd be interested in. I think that probably more executives will probably perk up to some of those novels that are the, you know, like Circe, right? An excellent example of re-examining a myth from one of the more minor characters. And so I could see somebody seeing promise, especially with the success of Odyssey and the Circe character there. optioning, if it hasn't already been happened three times over, the Circe novel. And a whole string of them on reimagining female characters and from their perspectives.

13:09 That's where I've seen the most not reimagining from the male perspective, I've seen the most of the kind of reimagining of the Greek stories I've seen is kind of taking female points of view. And so it would be great to see more of those female led, female centered kind of Greek stories come out of this. And Odyssey clearly did well financially. the money is what moves the machine. And so seeing that there is an audience for us, if it's done in the right way, then perhaps, yeah, it can do that. I mean, we saw something that was released at the same time or overlapping with the Odyssey was the musical Hadestown.

13:55 So there was a filmed version of the West End show that brought back the original cast for most of the parts for that film. So I saw that also just like a week or two apart from actually seeing the Odyssey. So there was a lot of Greekiness. Do you want to explain what Hades Town is like? I just had a quick look online to see Hades Town. So I love it. I'm an unabashed evangelist for Hadestown. So it's kind of, it's taking the, it kind of interweaves the Hades and Persephone and Orpheus and Eurydice myths and tells a story.

14:37 It's set in a kind of like rural United States in the 20s or so. It's kind of the aesthetic and has like a folk music aspect. So like the music that they're doing is kind of American folk. and it was written by a singer and songwriter. And yeah, so it's just what it's able to do with weaving two different myths, Greek myths together, finding some resonances between them. And like any myth, themes that, are weighty, that are tragic, ultimately tragic, and meriting kind of like sitting with, and the reason why, and also exploring the reason why we tell and retell tragedies as opposed to just retelling comedies.

15:26 So yeah, it's phenomenal music, phenomenal performance. It will be, I think if it's not already now available for renting or purchase streaming, the film version of that stage will, performance that the quality was was phenomenal but uh but yeah so it just like feeds anything that's you know ancient mythological or mythologically minded i'm going to just throw my money at it um that's interesting that that worked because what was that big series that failed with the modern greek gods um Yes. Was that the one with Jeff Goldblum? Yes, that's it. Because you can see what they're trying to do there.

16:08 And it vanished. It just didn't work. It just didn't work. Whereas Hades Town is interesting because they have updated it, but it's historic. So it's still, yeah, a sort of backward looking. Let's look at this period in our history through this Greek. Right. Yeah. And it's a yeah. And it's and it is and it is doing it. And it does deal with like the Odyssey there. You can see themes of dealing with issues that are political, social issues in America, like, you know, inequality of financial inequality. class, you know, classism with Odyssey, right? It's imperialism, relationships with outside countries, that sort of thing.

16:51 So there's some of that that you can't, but it's not, but both of those I think are successful because that's not like the point of the film. It's not the lesson. They're not trying to drive that one lesson. You can take that from it if you, If you're open to that and look at it, you can see it through that lens as applying to our present day. That's one of the things that I think these myths endure is because there's something, there's some kernel, some heart of it that wrestles with a question that's central to the human experience. And irreconcilable differences, contradictions, differences.

17:31 the complex nature of humans and then it causes, if you treat them in the same with that respect for that same kind of core of the asking the questions and exploring these really naughty issues then I think you can have something that's successful I think one of the challenges is when you're trying to take those myths and drive home a point or set it in a particular time that that's when they kind of fall apart so I'm glad that there are examples of doing well and that they've been rewarded well financially. So Hadestown did better in the box office during the same period of time that Hamilton, the musical, which was very well received.

18:11 Granted, that was released theatrically during COVID, during the longer COVID period, which might have prevented people from seeing it. But the fact that you had so many people that were seeing a stage musical in a movie theater Yeah, is I think is interesting, I think promising. And hopefully, yeah, they'll provide more opportunities to share stories like that with a broader audience for those people who can't quite make it to West End who can't quite make it to, to Broadway, or other other places. I think it opens up possibilities for more people to engage with really important, meaningful stories. So the other big film, which we haven't seen, so we're not going to give our views on it, is, of course, the other Tom Holland film, Spider-Man, Brand New Day.

19:00 I have a son who has seen it and liked it. He said it had gone to a more... reflective, they've gone to a smaller scale in a way. And I think that's a good direction to take Spider-Man rather than keep going bigger and bigger and bigger, actually think about the personal... Because of all the superheroes, he is the one who has possibly one of the most relatable characters stories because he's always just growing up he's always just coming out of school I mean that's the reset isn't it um and setting off in life and we've all either doing that about to do that or have done that um so I think that's why and he's a lovely actor so you know what a summer for some reason.

19:45 Really? Right. Anyway, so if you look at box office, pure box office, there was a horror film that also took a lot of money, but it was these big hitting fantasy films. Fantasies, yeah. And I think, yeah, so one of those other ones that I did see was Backrooms. was one of the horror or psychological suspense. Is that the one that came out of YouTube? Yes. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, fascinating, really interesting storytelling, storytelling structure, and the kind of blurring of reality and the fantastic. So it's kind of exploring this liminal space, a truly liminal space where...

20:28 I wouldn't say psychosis, but the losses that we experience or things that are causing some sort of psychological damage or something, those kind of seep over into this kind of in-between process. world that is just composed of a bunch of different rooms. And sometimes those rooms would be abstractions of rooms, abstractions of rooms that just kind of amplify and twist some of the things that people in our primary world are experiencing. So it's just kind of like offset from, uh, from our world. And so exploring kind of the psychological nature of wrestling with disappointments with trauma and kind of visualizing that, making it concrete in a fantastic world.

21:18 Well worth, I think it's well worth, that one's well worth seeing. Smaller cast, again, like- I'm really bad on horror. I need my heart closing. It's not gross. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, so there is more suspense. It's more suspense. There's like minimal kind of like what I consider like gross horror. It's like violence. Yes, there is. I can't say that one character, like, There is definitely a character that is all right. Well, as all right as you can be having experienced somebody's. At least you have, yeah. We're just saying something. But they also experienced something that was horrific. And so that will probably haunt them the rest of their lives.

21:59 But they're alive. And if that's what matters to you, then you got that. Okay, so that recommendation is to those of you out there who like your horror. And also it's a younger director, a younger voice coming into the film industry. So that's all worth supporting if you are brave enough. Okay, let's go to the TV schedules, whichever side of the box you are on that one. I've also done a little bit already on Mythmakers about the forthcoming Harry Potter series. And so really speaking from the whispers coming out, you get the occasional bit of information.

22:41 But you also have got a couple of trailers that you can sort of... have a rough guess what direction they're going in. So I don't want to spend too long talking about that, but just to touch base with you as to what you're expecting and what you've noticed from the trailers. Yeah, I'm hopeful. I want to see how it's turned out with that amount of the financial investment in it. I know the films were so great and beloved because there was such attention to detail in the background. So since we're talking about sometimes the intersection between the film and books, Mina Limah. the the art uh team that made all of the kind of like tactile props that you could actually like the newspapers the books uh um posters all the kind of like printed materials um there was such love that went into that that i just i i want to see i definitely want to see the tactile i know like the costumes are going to be great the special effects i'm sure they're putting a lot of time into but one of the things that that will make it successful for me is kind of like the smaller details of some of the things that they have.

23:53 And so I, I hope, I hope that's the case. And I would like, I know because you can, because you have a longer time period with which to explore the story, then I would hope that there are more like quiet moments that it's not all, you know, kind of, you know, action set piece, smaller, you know, you know, reaction to that. And then another action, that we could have more character development. And I think with the actors that they've cast, that that's, excuse me, that that's one of the things that's important to them is the quality of acting. And then hopefully we can sustain some of these relationships and see some of the lived-in experience in this world, what that's like, what they're actually handling and get a better sense of like sitting in and kind of soaking up the experience of this magical world of Hogwarts without having feeling like you're being rushed out of Hogwarts to battle something, and then retreating and going somewhere else and being at a breakneck speed that's necessary for a blockbuster film like that.

24:53 I hope that you do have more moments of more reflection of character exploration. That's one of my hopes for it. We'll see how that pans out. Yeah, you've got a young family, probably still too young for the series, I'd have thought. But I'd be interested to see how they pitch it, because when they first started making the films, they didn't have all the books and they didn't know what the trajectory was going to be with the very dark themes that come in. I mean, there is some peril in the first book, but the tone is definitely... Weasley wizarding wheezes. You know, it's that kind.

25:34 Right. Bright colours, funny. Even the sort of horribleness at home has an element of farce and funniness about it. I mean, it's child cruelty, isn't it? But it's done in like a Roald Dahl way that it's sort of... You go through it quite quickly and move on to the school. And I'm wondering if they will do the same thing of kind of aging through the palette. So you start with the more primary colors and go to the darker colors. It'll be interesting to see how they're going to handle that. So we can't tell yet, I don't think. Right. The primary audience.

26:15 Some of the signs are that it's going to be a bit more... realistic. Yeah, yes, right. You know what I mean? And I think that's, yeah, and I think it's reflective, the primary audience isn't children, right? This is the adults who grew up with the Harry Potter books, right? So this is, and that's one of the challenges with something like this where you're targeting, where if the book was originally written for a younger audience, it's a movie that's, or a show that's dealing with the same subject matter, but it's being marketed to that the primary audience is the parents of children the parents who the kids who were. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So this, so they're like, so, so clearly, like you said, you know, with like the dealing with, you know, like maybe the color palette that that's, I think with some of the trailers, you see that they want to make sure that it does hit notes that adults will find, that they will find meaningful or resonant compared to the other, you know, landscape that they're, that they're watching, but also their need, they need to feel like that that's something that they can have their kids watch.

27:13 That's kind of a fine line. It's an adult show. It's an adult show. I think it's a show typically marketed for adults who were children who grew up with this, but it has to be accessible enough for them to watch it with their children. And so I think it'll probably age up. more quickly. That's my guess, rather than taking a more light-hearted, whimsical approach. And that's the one saving grace that they could lean into for the first couple of seasons. And then hopefully... Actors are younger. So you need to remember, these are little young children growing up, so... And you don't want to ruin them.

27:58 You know, it's just... Anyway, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed they'll hit the right tone, and I don't know quite what that is. Okay, let's go to the third season of Rings of Power, which happens first. Now, just before we start talking about it, I happen to be listening. I've got the... the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, read by Sam West, on my phone. And at night, in order to stop doomscroving, you know, that's the brain going all doom-y, I often listen to things when I wake up. And so I was listening to a letter from 1951 that Tolkien wrote.

28:43 So the background to this is he was, before Lord of the Rings was published, he was sort of courting a Milton Waldman who was with another publishing house. Is that letter 131? Yes. Okay, for those following along, okay. Yeah, good. So everybody, grab your book. Grab your book. Turn to 131. Anyway, I'm not going to read it all. But it reminded me that Tolkien himself has already given a brilliant and masterful overview of the Second Age. It's better than the Appendices one because he's actually sort of analyzing it in a way that he doesn't in the Appendices, or even in the Silmarillion, actually.

29:32 So he starts off by saying the next cycle, after having told him about the first, you know, the first age, the next cycle deals or would deal with the second age, but it is on earth a dark age and not very much of its history is or need be told. Well, there you go, everybody. But anyway, he analyzes the, what is the state of mind of the various peoples? He says absolutely fascinatingly about Sauron that he actually starts off, he lingers in Middle-earth very slowly, beginning with fair motives, the reorganizing and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth neglected by the gods.

30:19 and he becomes a reincarnation of evil and a thing lusting for complete power. I don't think they've done that aspect to him. I think they pretty much joined him when he was already scheming. Though I suppose some of those scenes with the orcs trying to humanize, if that's the word, the orcs. But he also has really stern words about the elves. He says, They're lingering against counsel. They wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of the West and yet remain on the ordinary earth with their prestige as the highest people.

31:02 And he talks about how they're embalming things. Really interesting analysis of what's up with the elves. Yes. Anyway, he goes on to split those two streams that we often talk about the problem of combining, crossing the streams, isn't that a Ghostbusters thing? Of the Rings of Power side of it and how all that happens and the wreck of Eregion and things and then the Numenor interweaving the Numenor story. So if anybody is wanting to actually understand, if you need a refresher course and actually want to understand what Tolkien thinks it's all about, there's your letter.

31:43 Yeah, that's a great, that one's so great. So it's just like 10,000 words. It's a long, it's a long letter. It's a very long letter. It's a pitch. It's a great pitch. It is. Yeah. And it boils everything down. And he talks about, you know, he's pitching this to a publisher. So I think this is a good example of the way that it's for aspiring authors. Don't do that. People who write it. Don't do that. Don't write a 10,000 word cover letter. This is not the first conversation. Right, right. This is my opus. This is what I can do for you. Yeah. And this is how that stuff fits with The Hobbit that fits with Lord of the Rings. But, of course, then what happened is Rainer Unwin and everybody, they took on The Lord of the Rings and off it went with the same publishing.

32:30 But he had to stop and sort of work out what it was – what makes sense of his whole program. It's also a letter where he says the Hobbit wasn't originally part of... Right. Admitting that part. Yeah. But I'm just saying, yeah, one of the things I think that it's worth people, like, if you're writing... to understand your work to that same degree, right? You understand like, what are the core themes? What are the things? Because then you can take that and then boil that down once you have a good handle on that to your like cover letter and synopsis and one page summary and that sort of thing. So yeah, so he clearly, so Tolkien is somebody who clearly has thought a lot about the world that he's created and is synthesizing it and is still asking questions about certain things, which he was doing till the last day of his life, which is I think the mark of a good, engaged artist and author.

33:16 Yeah. So let's go to the Amazon series. I know they've had a sort of shake up about where they're filming and who's on the writing team and things like that. And it seems that some of the changes that one can make out from the trailer and what's being said about it and the early interviews with cast members is that they are not following those proto-Hobbits anymore. We've got... Celeborn is coming in. So that's the forgotten husband of Galadriel. He's turned up.

33:57 It seems quite a good way of making him turn up, though I wish they'd seeded a bit more in about him beforehand. But anyway... And I suppose my big question for you, as far as we can tell, is do you think they're fixing their story problem? And their story problem is that they've got the Rings of Power theme and the Numenorean theme and this sort of, how do we punch these together when we don't actually obey the long periods of time that Tolkien had? He was writing a history of it. Yeah, I hope so. It looks like from, again, like the teaser trailer that they've shown, that it looks like they are bringing together the Numenorean thread and the elf thread together by having Farazhan interacting with our elf, yeah, with our elf troop.

34:50 And so I think, so hopefully they're able to bring those, yeah, bringing those, by bringing those together, hopefully it's worth the wait. But you're right that that was one of the difficulties was having too many, having a number of different threads that didn't seem to clearly be working together. And it's a lot in today's landscape to make people wait that long. I don't think it's not worth doing, but like for people's attention spans, you at least have to be signaling how these are going to be coming together to say that there will be a payoff. So I think based on the trailer, it looks like there will be joining. So you have Elendil and the faithful members Um, uh, but we did that again, it's hard to see exactly how that's fitting in.

35:32 You just see them in, you know, wartime, you know, armor and attire. Uh, it's hard to see which who's doing, what is that like a separate part? Because they'd kind of split off from Farazana, the main Numenorean. So there's still be some of that intrigue, but it looks like we're at least bringing two of those streams that are kind of separate before they're trying to bring those together so that it's kind of a more coherent, I think, single, uh, single narrative that you're going to be following in terms of the Numenor and the Elvish part. Now, the Gandalf and the East, the Rune and the Dwarves, those are still kind of seeming separate, but at least anchored with Sauron.

36:12 And you see the introduction of the men who are under the sway of the ring, right? These Nazganol, these proto-Nazgal. The future is grim. So of the new cast, the things that stand out for me is a really good choice, which is Jamie Campbell Bower. If you Google him, he already looks like an elf. I mean, in fact, he looks like a high elf as opposed to... Anyway, good, very elven. He's going to be fine. And I think he's an interesting actor and he'll do a good job of giving, because of course you're up against Galadriel, who's the senior elf.

37:00 So anyway, I think he's going to hold his weight. The cast, the new cast that I find odd is Simon Pegg doing the voice of the Bower Elb. Now, Simon Pegg, some of you may remember him from the spoof Cornetto films. He's known in the UK as a sort of comedian. Yeah, yeah. But he was also Scotty in the reboot of Star Trek. And he's also, of course, been in Mission Impossible in a more sort of serious role. So he has range, but it just seems odd. Also having a, I mean, good luck to him. But a talking Balrog, which he does, they do talk in, I think, the Silmarillion.

37:45 I think there were a few lines. But it just seems, how is that going to work? Yeah. Yeah, what do you think? Something which is because the Balrogs on the sort of spirituality aspect are equal to the Maya. So they're like Gandalf. So whether or not actually this Balrog is imagined as something more human-like. Yeah. He's only the voice, so probably not. Anyway, that's going to be a challenge. Yeah, it is. And I had the same reaction as they had from my... experience with Simon Pegg is primarily a comedic actor. And even in Mission Impossible, he was there as part of the comedic relief for a thriller.

38:26 But yeah, so it's interesting. And I don't have anything against a Balrog talking, necessarily. It isn't really sardonic, wisecracking, something. Right. Is it, yeah, is it a used car salesman Balrog, right? Is it fast-talking, you know, New York, like, yeah. Is it Cockney? Is he going to have a Cockney accent? We want like a big, like, overpowering Balrog with a strong... Well, actually, I've said they can't do that, but they've used, like, Welsh for the, I forget now, it's Irish for L's and Welsh for... Anyway, basically the British accents have been distributed. So maybe that's really cockney for the ballard. Is that what you want? Yeah, you want a chimney sweep who's also a ballard.

39:08 All right, guys, I'm here. Yeah. But I think that the connection you made, I think, is interesting. I think it makes an argument. I don't think there's, yeah, like you said, I don't think there's anything in the Legendarium that says that ballards can't speak. And actually do speak. I think there's a confrontation where they do speak. So, yeah, which I think is fine. And I think if... In the same way as Dark and Spake. Yes, yeah, exactly. And so with Balrogs being Maya, being this, you know, kind of just below the Balrogs, the Balrogs being kind of like the lead pantheon, the gods, and then the Maya being kind of like just kind of like a step below them, which is Gandalf is one of, right, the...

39:51 Saruman, Sauron and Balrogs are all part of that so to have Sauron kind of in collaboration with or trying to win over a Balrog Yeah, I can see this is where the cockney really works you can imagine him like a gang leader sitting in his face and saying, what's your best offer? What's your best offer? Yes, right, a Victorian yes, it's like your Victorian pocket Right, yes, yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's interesting, treating them as if, would a Balrog, how would a Balrog react to Sauron? So this is one of the challenges, I think, with Sauron. We had Sauron interacting with elves, with humans, with Numenor in the first season.

40:35 You have him interacting with elves and seeing that. And now you have him with orcs. and with a Balrog. So how does he then interact with other evils that he's now... We saw in the beginning of season two where he was murdered because he couldn't get along with the orcs and the forces of evil. So now, how does he... It's a management problem. So now he has to actually become... not just like chairman of the board, he has to be somebody that can gain the respect, trust, confidence of other evils. And so how does an evil convince other evils that have different agendas?

41:18 So that's something that I think could be interesting is exploring Sauron, we've seen him interacting with the elves and their philosophy, humans and their philosophy and weakness, strength and weaknesses, preying on their weaknesses. How is he going to do that with other powerful, like the Balrog, who is clearly massive in power and scope. So how does he bring the Balrog on board to his project? I think it could be interesting. I hope it is. I hope it is. Yeah, I mean... I just, I might end up rooting for the Balrog. I can feel that happening. But one of the things that losing the Hobbit type creatures, halfling creatures, is that you no longer have the potential, not that I ever really felt they represented us, but what they do in Lord of the Rings, it's the view of these great events from the little people.

42:12 And one of the problems, I think, from a storytelling point of view is that the Rings of Power doesn't have that as a reliable running through it. And that's a real difficulty for the writers to find a relatable level. They've got excellent actors. I mean, since the last season, Robert Aramayo as Elrond, you know, the young Elrond, he has since won a BAFTA for another role in a fantastic film about somebody with Tourette's syndrome. Completely different, completely different role indeed. So they have these great resources, but I think their storytelling is hampered by the scope that they're trying to embrace.

43:05 But one of the interviews I saw with the cast, they were talking about it being Sauron's season in a sense. Interesting. So if we spend a lot of time with him, are we going to be seduced by the dark side? I don't know. Because we don't relate to Sauron, do we? Because he's evil. I mean, questions after questions after questions. And I really think there's a massive storytelling problem in bringing any of these other Tolkien material to forward because Tolkien works really well with the...

43:45 the key cast members and the hobbits where you see because that perspective gives you that sense of awe and wonder and beauty and experience of Middle-earth whereas if with the characters who are the heroes who are the you know, the elves who have lived forever and the kings and the queens who are at the height of their powers. Because Numenor is like a rival. It's like, you look at how Tolkien describes it, Sauron is impressed by Numenor. So I think there is this problem about who... who is, who is telling us this story?

44:26 Where are we? That's what I think I've always struggled with. Um, as much as I, I really want it to work and I hope they found some good route through the material, but it's just tricky. Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Um, that, I think that's November, that one. So we've got Potter at Christmas and this is November. Um, so I really hope they've cracked it this time. Um, how about other fantasy news we both have books either out or on the way um jacob tell us about you've got this because you have this role in the board game world fantasy board game extensions and things like that you've just done something really interesting tell us about your project yeah those are watching on youtube we're actually about to see it i'm gonna see it yeah so this is uh the book here it's called quest of wonders uh and illuminators lore book so this is um so i work for yes so disney so disney disney lorcona is the um name of the game so disney lorcona trading card game um and behind trading card games one of the kind of foundations for a training card game is a narrative, right?

45:41 So it's a reason of what's holding all of these cards together. You're playing, you're And coming into the secondary world and experiencing it through card playing. What's interesting with storytelling and cards and card games is cards are randomized, right? You're shuffling them and you're playing. You're not going to be playing cards in a particular sequence. So you have to tell stories in kind of an asynchronous, you know, kind of nonlinear way. So they're told through the card art. You have to make sure that the themes are all kind of. coherent, consistent. There's little bits of stories that are being told on each of these cards. There's flavor text, a quote or something at the bottom that might put a piece of the story together.

46:21 And it has to be kind of, you're more invoking a theme of a story, kind of like a general plot points because they're going to be experienced differently every time somebody plays. So it's a different mode of storytelling, somewhat closer to video games, like branching narratives, choose your own adventures, where there's different possible ways and stories still have to make sense, depending on how you're connecting, how you're following the paths. But this was, you know, and... a chance to tell a more traditional in some ways sense of a story that's, that's being set. It's set in the world itself, but rather than just kind of like a straightforward novel, um, it's a in-world artifact.

47:04 So, uh, in the book itself, you have, it's, it's presented without any, you know, we have a slip case where you can handle the marketing and, you know, your ISBN numbers and, um, and all the legal information. And then the book itself, once you get the book itself, it's supposed to be like an in-world, like a book that you could pull off the shelf from the world itself. And so it's kind of a diary that contains images and characters. It's kind of mirroring in some way gameplay kind of thematically, but taking that and turning it into a story, it does deal with... So there's a journal as well as you're following somebody's notes in the margins that's trying to piece together, solve the mystery of whose book this is, why they found it, why the person hid it in the first place.

47:52 So there's a mystery aspect. But one of the central parts of this is Disney characters are part of the journey. So it's a world where... where these were kind of variants of Disney characters are joining people from our world who come to the secondary world on an adventure. So anyway, so it's fun. I had a lot of fun putting it together. And there was certainly a different experience with development, production, and also the promotion period. working with a Disney licensed product than a independently owned as an author, being the sole owner of the idea. So it's been fascinating.

48:33 It's been fun collaborating. One of the benefits has been collaborating with other people, with artists. It's a richly illustrated book as well with the book designers and things. So it's really kind of a piece of art as well as a story that ties into a larger world that needs to be fully consistent and coherent. So I understand Tolkien's, what he went through and having to make sure that each pieces are fitting together. And so when you've had, you know, 12 different sets of cards come out before this, 13 now, to make sure that it's completely consistent, coherent, that everything hangs together is a challenge, but there are ways to, I think, to do some really interesting things there storytelling-wise.

49:16 So yeah, it's been fun. It's been great to talk with people about it who've read it and engage with folks and hopefully can talk with more people about it. It just came out within the past few weeks. It's available in, will be available in the United States, largely in game stores, like local game stores. But then also in Europe, it's also translated into German and French. So it should be available there in more traditional bookstores as well. So I've been happy with that. Yeah, it's an interesting part of writing because... Quite a lot of us do something like this during the course of our career.

50:00 So for me, I've written books that are in part of much longer, like reading schemes where there's a longer character arc. And you have no idea. It's been running for years. And you come in and they say, can you write this book? And they tell you, this is kind of like the, here are the characters. This is where they kind of start. And this is where we kind of need them to finish. And you can't. kill somebody off or do anything drastic, you've got to sort of take them through it within the rules of that world. And of course, if you are writing for television or something like that, you might well be joining an existing, like, Star Trek or some kind of soap, you know.

50:46 There's already loads of stuff out there and they will have a serious Bible and you have to work within that. It's a skill that lots of writers have to do at some point. Okay, so my book isn't out yet. It's out. Actually, I've got the publication date. It's the 31st of December. So it's meant for January, that means. So the stage I'm at is we've decided the title. It's always a good point, isn't it? I think last time we talked about this, we were sort of mulling the title. And it's called History of Trees and Castle. And I've got not the final cover, but I've got pretty much...

51:26 close to the final cover art. This is a black and white version at the moment. Because I'm supposed to be getting it like today. And then there'll be a big announcement on the 20th. Well, big, you know, an announcement. But we're doing things like getting the interior artwork. So character art, maps, maps. All that stuff. And in the background, I've been drawing maps and sending them off. I've been giving notes about what kind of characters these characters could be. So to give a sense of diversity amongst the characters, those sorts of things.

52:06 And then at this point, because my editor and I, the book is done, and we're now talking about book two, but this book, I've been handed over to the marketing team. And what that means is suddenly people start saying, can you please send us... An author photo, portrait for this lot, landscape for this lot. And then can you do a 60 second video for these people and a two minute one over here? So I was trying to do something a bit more entertaining than here I am a boring author talking about. Right. um because it has a sort of traitor's game feel to it i got myself a a cloak and a mask because rather than do the cloak my characters wear like masks um to hide who they are animal masks uh and i asked permission of the uh the local vicar's wife and said can i just go into the church because i wanted something i can't go to a castle um I wanted something with an old stone behind me, not with religious artifacts, but there's a bit in the church that I knew where it's got an ancient, ancient thousand-year-old door and stone.

53:19 I thought, yeah, that's my thing. So I did a bit of filming yesterday and then spliced it together and sent it off. And we're talking about... podcasts and interviews and festivals and bookshops and school events, all that kind of stuff. So this in a way is where your little project starts to expand and you think, how can I convey this world in any way for 10-year-old children? Right. On a Friday afternoon, you know, in, I don't know, Birmingham or somewhere, you have to work out what is it that actually is going to be fun to switch children on to reading rather than switching them off.

54:04 So that's the phase we're in. And the book will come out. It's being sent out in proofs to, you know, industry and other authors to get quotes and all that. And then when the actual book comes out, the marketing, the going out on the road to publicity tour type thing happens in January. Gotcha. Possibly into February as well. So it'll be a busy period. So exciting. But I'm also just starting to start writing book two. That's fantastic. You have to sort of, this is the weird thing. When you've got a book done, you actually are writing the other one whilst talking about the first one.

54:47 You have to keep thinking, which world am I in? Which one? Yeah, you don't want to reveal. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, and that's a fun, and it is, and that's something that I hadn't done before was the promotional type things. We had a series of readings and signings at a Disney, a large Disney convention. um a couple months ago it's kind of a big target audience there so doing like three or four of those a day where you're like doing readings and like answering questions and talking then iterating on that you kind of like figure out like okay this works this doesn't work yeah it's like sound like comedian with your yeah no exactly so you're kind of reading the room yeah i know i think what it has done is like help me uh like like with told we talked bringing it back to tolkien's there to the publisher to try to kind of like, what's the essence of this story?

55:35 What is like, what are the things that, and not just because you've been living with the book for so long and writing in it, what actually is engaging to other people? That's where you can kind of finally get it out in the wild and figure, okay, so what's resonating? What's working? What piques people's interest? What doesn't? What was something that for me was, I thought, incredible and I loved other people's kind of, didn't care as much about it. But then like really kind of testing out, finding different parts of it and then, working that into the next iteration, the next time you're doing those. And then with answering those questions, I think that's really smart. It's not just about you as an author. It's about the other people. So how do you make this engaging for other people to invite them into the world?

56:15 Because you're not the selling point. No. Unless you're Stephen King. It's the story itself. So how do you allow the story to shine in a way that people are enticed and want to enter into that world? And it's worth thinking about. That's even worth thinking about at the very beginning. If you can bring that kind of mentality to the beginning of the writing process... When you're like, okay, what is going to be drawing people in and having that as kind of a North Star for what is exciting than that you're going to be, I feel like far more likely to bring them in rather than after the fact. Okay, I wrote this whole 70,000 words. There's got to be something in there that's a hook. And then trying to fish for it. something that's doing that, having that those sort of things, the compelling ideas, the plot lines, that sort of thing at the beginning, what's going to connect, I think is helpful.

56:57 And then this is helpful for kind of like re reinforcing that maybe helping me see things that now, as I write further projects, I'm definitely going to be wanting to take some of those lessons and, and coming up with those ideas, articulating those earlier in the process to then help shape the entire work. So yeah, it's been it's been fun. And I'm glad that you're having a that yours is coming up here. Yeah. The other thing is choosing which bit to read. That is difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. There's a whole, I think, yeah. Yeah. But I understand. Yeah. You want something that will make people, something that works on the page might not work in a room.

57:40 Yeah, because it's a performance, and it has to be kind of self-contained. Giving some little recap of something, setting up context, but it has to stand alone as a performance. And if it doesn't land... then you're going to have to find another passage quickly for the next one. So aside from obviously, you know, our books are the main event. No, no. Let's talk about other fantasy news. You were saying that there's an update about Brandon Sanderson. Yeah. So again, like as an author, you know, who for him, he's been... He has an audience. So Brandon Sanders is a best-selling author, clearly has an audience.

58:22 He's been very transparent about his writing process, and he provides weekly updates on percentage completion for his different projects. And so now that some of his work, Cosmere is kind of his legendarium, where he's setting all of his major works in. Now, he's working on a screenplay for one of the books. It's kind of the first in this age particular corner of his universe, Mistborn. He's writing the script for it. And so he's been giving updates on, and this is a script for a film version. Apple picked up. One of his series, his way of keeping the series, that one's going to be a serialized television series, whereas the Mistborn books are going to be films.

59:10 So the first one can be a trilogy following the trilogy of the first books in this progressive series. And so he's providing updates on here's how far it is. And he's sharing what's difficult, what's his fun, you know, opportunities. So it's been interesting listening to an author. Usually we don't get that kind of transparency with the creation of screenplays and things, especially if it's a anticipated series that already has a fan base, right? So that's been really interesting seeing an author who's primarily... doing novels and then transitioning, kind of doing the transition, like the storytelling differences for screenplays and then working with the larger...

59:54 complex of producing a work for TV and screen. So anyway, that's been interesting, kind of seeing that play out in real time, getting an idea for the difficulties of challenges and opportunities of reimagining your project for a different medium, and what that's like kind of in real time. Yeah, I know you said he's obviously got a huge following and I've read a few of his. I'm not a follower, but I've read a few of his books. It'd be interesting to see, I think the big challenge is can you increase that audience by doing the screenplay or do you just play to the same level? Right.

1:00:34 If it's massive enough, it's on because you catch. Yeah, which may be fine. But I think I would really enjoy seeing something which increase the appeal. Something like the Wheel of Time series, for example, which was big in many ways. I don't think it really moved the needle on the public perception and popularity of the Wheel of Time. Or not much. So it would be interesting. I hope he's able to do that. I'd be looking forward to that. But presumably if he's on the screenplay stage, it's a few years off. Yes, right. Yeah. It is, yeah. Okay, Jacob, thank you so much for joining me for a big catch-up, and we'll touch base again when there is some more fantasy news. I was looking out to see if there's any of the news about Greta Gerwig and Narnia.

1:01:17 Nothing's coming out at the moment. Right. But they must be thinking about heading into the publicity phase, but we'll see. um so there's a lot happening oh and of course there's the anti-circus lord of the rings film and other films being made so there will be more things happening more to talk about let's talk about thank you very much thank you everybody for listening Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast. Brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, In Person Stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts.

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