A Talking Balrog? The Big Fantasy News From Films to TV to Books

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Hello and welcome to Myth Makers.

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Myth Makers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives, brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.

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My name is Julia Golding.

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I'm an author and I run the activities of our little centre.

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And today I am joined by my favourite podcast partner from over the other side of the pond.

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That's Jacob Rennecker.

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So hi, Jacob.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Right, today we're doing a bit of a catch up because we haven't spoken over the summer.

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And we thought we would deal with a couple of topics.

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The first is to look at what's been going on in the cinemas, because that seemed to be a big place for fantasy over the summer.

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Then we're going to have a look at what's happening in the TV in the autumn and to the winter.

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And then we're going to have a think about books.

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So we're covering quite a lot today.

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So let's first of all start with the big film of the summer.

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Did you go and see The Odyssey in IMAX or would you just go to your local cinema?

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Yeah.

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I did see it in IMAX.

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I made a trek to see it.

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It wasn't on the film, 70mm film.

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It was the digital version.

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Sadly, it was far too far of a trek to go see it, as it was the platonic ideal of seeing it would be in IMAX.

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70 millimeter film imax so it's the the next best thing yeah so i saw it very large screen but it did i but i think it was worth yeah it was i think it was worth seeing in that kind of like massive uh format the the spectacle and scope of the of the story i think uh rewarded that kind of viewing

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Yeah, I've already talked about my views of the Odyssey in various outlets.

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But let's think about it as the original fantasy.

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How did you feel they managed with the... Because obviously there's the war and the politics of the war and all that side of it.

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But how did you feel they managed with the fantasy elements like the magical creatures and the, you know, the sort of gods and that element of it?

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Yeah, the fantastic, yeah, that was really an interesting part of the film.

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So anytime you're dealing with monsters, there's a chance that it can...

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move beyond the fantastic to the comical, just kind of because of the, you know, we don't typically encounter monsters in our communities unless you're living with a small child.

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So with, but in terms of like actual, you know, practical, so I appreciate the practical effects.

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And so like the Cyclops, for instance, rather than having, you know, kind of a comically large

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a strong creature with a large head and an eyeball plop right in the center, either like a very large eye, kind of comically large eye,

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having the eye kind of twisted sideways.

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So you still had, so you could see it, and then the nose twisted.

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So it was a more, I felt it was a surprisingly realistic take on a cyclops.

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If your face was just kind of shifted, stretched and elongated, then it might make a little bit more sense to have.

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You're right.

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I hadn't thought of that.

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Basically doing a Picasso.

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Yeah, right.

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It's just come to me now what they were doing.

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I hadn't realized.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And having it as like a, you know, normal proportions for, you know, somebody who's subsisting on sheep and, you know, cheese.

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So not like a, you know, beefy, large, kind of like giant-ish, titanic creature, but like

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I believe there was a shepherd, a giant shepherd with one eye.

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So I thought, so I, so I appreciated that the, the, the effort to, to try with more practical, same thing with the,

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with kind of the giants.

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I can't remember the names of the creatures, but the armored, you know, the very large armored creatures.

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Yeah, I mean, they are.

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I mean, I think it is often referred to as the island of giants, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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I didn't really get, I didn't get why they put that in.

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Right.

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It was, I mean, it was great.

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It made great for trailers.

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It was a good, you know, just kind of like if you're going more.

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And so one of the things I think that it did do is capture the episodic nature well of the, of the Odyssey, right.

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So that it's, you know, he's, he's going from island, island, island.

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And then, so, so yes, that the Cersei, the kind of more realistic take of Cersei with her, you know, kind of,

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Not just like magical transformation, you know, waving a wand or kind of a time lapse, you know, something sped up.

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Here the humans are now swine, but her kind of like massaging the creatures and making him is disturbing and also like...

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fantastic in the sense of fantasy, but also it provided a groundedness, a certain groundedness to that fantastical element.

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So the one that was hardest to pull off practically is the Scylla and Charybdis, where you kind of have to have, if there's a multi-headed character,

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serpent-like beast uh there there isn't too much you can do unless with with practical puppetry um but even then so that was the one that you know leaned most on cgi and was the least i think like grounded um realistically um for the you know for the many-headed monster but um but in terms of like the god the gods themselves and this is where and i want to hear what you're what you thought about this it's

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I know when I was talking with my wife about it, she saw, you know, Athena kind of appearing, almost haunting Odysseus as he's, as he's going the reveal at the end.

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Spoilers.

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If you haven't seen the Odyssey, fingers in the air, start humming now.

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Yeah.

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Odysseus does make it back.

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But beyond that, he, so when the reveal, the flashback to the sack of Troy, that it's, you know, a priestess of Athena that is, that is killed before him.

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That is, is the face that Athena wears.

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And so what my wife interpreted that as saying like, this is just, you know, kind of like post-traumatic stress.

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And so he's,

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fabricating the voice of this God because he's haunted by something, a tragedy that he saw some sort of injustice.

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And so that injustice, you know, slobbering an innocent in a temple was what was, was haunting him.

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Whereas I, like I saw the possibility that like, that this is the face that the goddess takes, uh,

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to communicate with him, the one that he would be most likely to pay attention to.

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So I think, so it's interesting in that, that I think you could see it both ways.

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They talked about the gods.

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You had, you know, like rumblings of, uh, with like Zeus, like Poseidon, the sea.

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So there was, so it was almost trying to have it both ways that like, yes, the gods exist and are causing these things, but also, but also maybe not, maybe these are just

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forces of nature and psychological breakdowns that occur.

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So I think the fact that there's the possibility for both of those, I think, is interesting.

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And of course, as somebody who's more fantastically inclined, I'm looking for those moments of like, okay, there is actually the fantastic, the magical in this world.

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But the fact that there is another reading, another way to put those kind of pieces together, I think that's an indication of art that's worth seeing and talking about.

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If you can talk about it and have to talk through those things afterwards, I think it's a worthy piece of art that does its job in art.

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telling a story, not just like pounding home a lesson, but telling a story that's open to, you know, multiplicity of approaches, applications.

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So yeah.

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So what did you think about the fantastic elements in the Odyssey, Julia?

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Yeah, no, Ashley, what you've just said about Athena, I found really helpful just then because I had assumed it was more in, like your wife, more as a psychological conversation he's having with himself.

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But of course, there is a sense in which the world is the world of the gods.

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You have Hades, you know, the world of the underworld, not Hades himself, but that kind of zone, clearly, which is an otherworldly place of the dead.

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So it has a supernatural element.

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And then, as you say, the killing of the Cyclops, that's why Poseidon is set against them.

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Those kind of things.

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So this is Richard Nolan's version, because if you read the poem...

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The gods are one of the main set of characters in it.

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And if you think of another film that tackles the gods, something like the Percy Jackson film, there the gods are handled by reimagining them as larger-than-life versions of us, a kind of updated version.

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I think, aren't they on the top of the Empire State Building or something?

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Yes.

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So that probably works in...

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I mean, Percy Jackson has a comedic adventure aspect to it, so it works within that.

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You don't take it too seriously.

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It's fun to see, I don't know, the Medusa turn up in a garden centre or whatever it is, an Aries on a bike.

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Yeah, but you can't, if you have too many gods walking around in a world which you're trying to take seriously, like the Odyssey, I think probably what he's done is something that suits a modern audience.

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But I like your explanation that you're supposed to understand it in two ways.

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It could be the god deciding this was the appropriate face.

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I think that works.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And the other, but the...

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You mentioned that the whirlpool and the snakes for you was a letdown.

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For me, it's the sirens and it always is.

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Because sirens, guys, are not mermaid-y type women on a rock.

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No.

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No, if you look at Greek pottery and Greek ideas, the sirens are a version of a bird colony.

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And you'll see sirens with feathers and wings.

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And I was really hoping he would give us something unusual and different.

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The very first book I wrote was called The Secret of the Sirens, my first fantasy way back in 2006.

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And at the beginning is a glossary.

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saying a siren is not a mermaid.

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That's a sea nymph.

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So I kind of, they didn't linger over what, because the sirens were kind of slightly misty and undefined in the background.

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And it was their song, which was supposed to be the thing that was foregrounded.

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But I was just a bit disappointed that they didn't read the, you know, they could have just like different.

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Anyway,

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So that's the Odyssey.

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What do you think it has done for that kind of swords and sandals fantasy?

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Do you think we're going to see a lot more of the Greek myth being, because you know how Hollywood follows a winner?

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Are we going to have more of this?

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That's a good question.

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To a certain extent, it's never really left with Game of Thrones and then almost immediately after House of Dragons.

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House of Dragons is immediately following after that kind of classical fantasy.

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Lord of the Rings, something that we'll talk about a little bit later, that's either classical, medieval, pre-medieval fantasy,

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No, I'm going Greek.

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I'm going Iliad.

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I'm going, and probably Roman as well.

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You know, Jason and the Argonauts, Ariadne.

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I mean, there's been a lot of, there's been a whole trend in novels.

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Yeah.

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Right, right.

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No, no, the reimagining, that's where I'd be interested in.

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I think that probably more executives will probably perk up to some of those novels that are the, you know, like Circe, right?

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An excellent example of re-examining a myth from one of the more minor characters.

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And so I could see somebody seeing promise, especially with the success of Odyssey and the Circe character there.

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optioning, if it hasn't already been happened three times over, the Circe novel.

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And a whole string of them on reimagining female characters and from their perspectives.

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That's where I've seen the most not reimagining

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from the male perspective, I've seen the most of the kind of reimagining of the Greek stories I've seen is kind of taking female points of view.

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And so it would be great to see more of those female led, female centered kind of Greek stories come out of this.

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And Odyssey clearly did well financially.

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the money is what moves the machine.

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And so seeing that there is an audience for us, if it's done in the right way, then perhaps, yeah, it can do that.

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I mean, we saw something that was released at the same time or overlapping with the Odyssey was the musical Hadestown.

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So there was a filmed version of the West End

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show that brought back the original cast for most of the parts for that film.

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So I saw that also just like a week or two apart from actually seeing the Odyssey.

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So there was a lot of Greekiness.

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Do you want to explain what Hades Town is like?

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I just had a quick look online to see Hades Town.

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So I love it.

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I'm an unabashed evangelist for Hadestown.

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So it's kind of, it's taking the, it kind of interweaves the Hades and Persephone

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and Orpheus and Eurydice myths and tells a story.

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It's set in a kind of like rural United States in the 20s or so.

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It's kind of the aesthetic and has like a folk music aspect.

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So like the music that they're doing is kind of American folk.

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and it was written by a singer and songwriter.

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And yeah, so it's just what it's able to do with weaving two different myths, Greek myths together, finding some resonances between them.

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And like any myth, themes that,

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are weighty, that are tragic, ultimately tragic, and meriting kind of like sitting with, and the reason why, and also exploring the reason why we tell and retell tragedies as opposed to just retelling comedies.

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So yeah, it's phenomenal music, phenomenal performance.

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It will be, I think if it's not already now available for renting or purchase streaming, the film version of that stage will,

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performance that the quality was was phenomenal but uh but yeah so it just like feeds anything that's you know ancient mythological or mythologically minded i'm going to just throw my money at it um that's interesting that that worked because what was that big series that failed with the modern greek gods um

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Yes.

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Was that the one with Jeff Goldblum?

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Yes, that's it.

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Because you can see what they're trying to do there.

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And it vanished.

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It just didn't work.

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It just didn't work.

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Whereas Hades Town is interesting because they have updated it, but it's historic.

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So it's still, yeah, a sort of backward looking.

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Let's look at this period in our history through this Greek.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And it's a yeah.

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And it's and it is and it is doing it.

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And it does deal with like the Odyssey there.

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You can see themes of dealing with issues that are political, social issues in America, like, you know, inequality of financial inequality.

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class, you know, classism with Odyssey, right?

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It's imperialism, relationships with outside countries, that sort of thing.

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So there's some of that that you can't, but it's not, but both of those I think are successful because that's not like the point of the film.

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It's not the lesson.

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They're not trying to drive that one lesson.

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You can take that from it if you,

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If you're open to that and look at it, you can see it through that lens as applying to our present day.

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That's one of the things that I think these myths endure is because there's something, there's some kernel, some heart of it that wrestles with a question that's central to the human experience.

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And irreconcilable differences, contradictions, differences.

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the complex nature of humans and then it causes, if you treat them in the same with that respect for that same kind of core of the asking the questions and exploring these really naughty issues then I think you can have something that's successful I think one of the challenges is when you're trying to take those myths and drive home a point or set it in a particular time that that's when they kind of fall apart so I'm glad that there are examples of doing well and that they've been rewarded well

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financially.

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00:18:01.463 --> 00:18:11.525
So Hadestown did better in the box office during the same period of time that Hamilton, the musical, which was very well received.

206
00:18:11.765 --> 00:18:19.447
Granted, that was released theatrically during COVID, during the longer COVID period, which might have prevented people from seeing it.

207
00:18:19.467 --> 00:18:25.368
But the fact that you had so many people that were seeing a stage musical in a movie theater

208
00:18:25.788 --> 00:18:29.350
Yeah, is I think is interesting, I think promising.

209
00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:43.096
And hopefully, yeah, they'll provide more opportunities to share stories like that with a broader audience for those people who can't quite make it to West End who can't quite make it to, to Broadway, or other other places.

210
00:18:43.116 --> 00:18:48.319
I think it opens up possibilities for more people to engage with really important, meaningful stories.

211
00:18:49.521 --> 00:18:59.885
So the other big film, which we haven't seen, so we're not going to give our views on it, is, of course, the other Tom Holland film, Spider-Man, Brand New Day.

212
00:19:00.865 --> 00:19:03.746
I have a son who has seen it and liked it.

213
00:19:03.846 --> 00:19:06.627
He said it had gone to a more...

214
00:19:07.932 --> 00:19:11.055
reflective, they've gone to a smaller scale in a way.

215
00:19:11.816 --> 00:19:26.530
And I think that's a good direction to take Spider-Man rather than keep going bigger and bigger and bigger, actually think about the personal... Because of all the superheroes, he is the one who has possibly one of the most relatable characters

216
00:19:26.810 --> 00:19:43.303
stories because he's always just growing up he's always just coming out of school I mean that's the reset isn't it um and setting off in life and we've all either doing that about to do that or have done that um so I think that's why and he's a lovely actor so you know what a summer

217
00:19:44.064 --> 00:19:45.685
for some reason.

218
00:19:45.785 --> 00:19:46.465
Really?

219
00:19:46.806 --> 00:19:47.626
Right.

220
00:19:48.166 --> 00:19:58.032
Anyway, so if you look at box office, pure box office, there was a horror film that also took a lot of money, but it was these big hitting fantasy films.

221
00:19:58.052 --> 00:19:58.752
Fantasies, yeah.

222
00:19:58.912 --> 00:20:02.234
And I think, yeah, so one of those other ones that I did see was Backrooms.

223
00:20:04.215 --> 00:20:08.137
was one of the horror or psychological suspense.

224
00:20:08.197 --> 00:20:09.959
Is that the one that came out of YouTube?

225
00:20:10.939 --> 00:20:11.139
Yes.

226
00:20:11.539 --> 00:20:13.180
Yep, yep, yep.

227
00:20:13.281 --> 00:20:23.727
Yeah, fascinating, really interesting storytelling, storytelling structure, and the kind of blurring of reality and the fantastic.

228
00:20:23.747 --> 00:20:28.330
So it's kind of exploring this liminal space, a truly liminal space where...

229
00:20:28.950 --> 00:20:46.455
I wouldn't say psychosis, but the losses that we experience or things that are causing some sort of psychological damage or something, those kind of seep over into this kind of in-between process.

230
00:20:47.255 --> 00:20:50.098
world that is just composed of a bunch of different rooms.

231
00:20:50.578 --> 00:21:01.668
And sometimes those rooms would be abstractions of rooms, abstractions of rooms that just kind of amplify and twist some of the things that people in our primary world are experiencing.

232
00:21:01.688 --> 00:21:04.310
So it's just kind of like offset from, uh,

233
00:21:05.615 --> 00:21:06.436
from our world.

234
00:21:06.476 --> 00:21:17.783
And so exploring kind of the psychological nature of wrestling with disappointments with trauma and kind of visualizing that, making it concrete in a fantastic world.

235
00:21:18.063 --> 00:21:21.125
Well worth, I think it's well worth, that one's well worth seeing.

236
00:21:21.225 --> 00:21:24.087
Smaller cast, again, like- I'm really bad on horror.

237
00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:26.831
I need my heart closing.

238
00:21:26.891 --> 00:21:27.551
It's not gross.

239
00:21:27.611 --> 00:21:28.231
Yeah, it's not.

240
00:21:28.271 --> 00:21:30.212
Yeah, so there is more suspense.

241
00:21:30.232 --> 00:21:30.932
It's more suspense.

242
00:21:30.972 --> 00:21:37.295
There's like minimal kind of like what I consider like gross horror.

243
00:21:37.455 --> 00:21:39.916
It's like violence.

244
00:21:40.997 --> 00:21:41.577
Yes, there is.

245
00:21:42.597 --> 00:21:44.018
I can't say that one character, like,

246
00:21:44.518 --> 00:21:47.159
There is definitely a character that is all right.

247
00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:50.640
Well, as all right as you can be having experienced somebody's.

248
00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:51.600
At least you have, yeah.

249
00:21:51.620 --> 00:21:53.461
We're just saying something.

250
00:21:53.701 --> 00:21:56.362
But they also experienced something that was horrific.

251
00:21:56.482 --> 00:21:58.743
And so that will probably haunt them the rest of their lives.

252
00:21:59.083 --> 00:22:00.303
But they're alive.

253
00:22:00.783 --> 00:22:03.044
And if that's what matters to you, then you got that.

254
00:22:03.424 --> 00:22:07.569
Okay, so that recommendation is to those of you out there who like your horror.

255
00:22:09.531 --> 00:22:12.835
And also it's a younger director, a younger voice coming into the film industry.

256
00:22:12.855 --> 00:22:15.878
So that's all worth supporting if you are brave enough.

257
00:22:16.459 --> 00:22:23.867
Okay, let's go to the TV schedules, whichever side of the box you are on that one.

258
00:22:25.228 --> 00:22:30.632
I've also done a little bit already on Mythmakers about the forthcoming Harry Potter series.

259
00:22:33.113 --> 00:22:40.958
And so really speaking from the whispers coming out, you get the occasional bit of information.

260
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:45.301
But you also have got a couple of trailers that you can sort of...

261
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.342
have a rough guess what direction they're going in.

262
00:22:48.362 --> 00:22:57.230
So I don't want to spend too long talking about that, but just to touch base with you as to what you're expecting and what you've noticed from the trailers.

263
00:22:59.015 --> 00:23:02.298
Yeah, I'm hopeful.

264
00:23:02.859 --> 00:23:08.985
I want to see how it's turned out with that amount of the financial investment in it.

265
00:23:09.265 --> 00:23:14.450
I know the films were so great and beloved because there was such attention to detail in the background.

266
00:23:14.471 --> 00:23:20.777
So since we're talking about sometimes the intersection between the film and books, Mina Limah.

267
00:23:21.217 --> 00:23:45.835
the the art uh team that made all of the kind of like tactile props that you could actually like the newspapers the books uh um posters all the kind of like printed materials um there was such love that went into that that i just i i want to see i definitely want to see the tactile i know like the costumes are going to be great the special effects i'm sure they're putting a lot of time into but one of the things that

268
00:23:46.846 --> 00:23:53.411
that will make it successful for me is kind of like the smaller details of some of the things that they have.

269
00:23:53.431 --> 00:23:55.993
And so I, I hope, I hope that's the case.

270
00:23:56.894 --> 00:24:11.145
And I would like, I know because you can, because you have a longer time period with which to explore the story, then I would hope that there are more like quiet moments that it's not all, you know, kind of, you know, action set piece, smaller, you know,

271
00:24:11.685 --> 00:24:13.265
you know, reaction to that.

272
00:24:13.365 --> 00:24:16.826
And then another action, that we could have more character development.

273
00:24:16.846 --> 00:24:24.669
And I think with the actors that they've cast, that that's, excuse me, that that's one of the things that's important to them is the quality of acting.

274
00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:40.933
And then hopefully we can sustain some of these relationships and see some of the lived-in experience in this world, what that's like, what they're actually handling and get a better sense of like sitting in and kind of soaking up the experience of this magical world of Hogwarts

275
00:24:41.632 --> 00:24:53.320
without having feeling like you're being rushed out of Hogwarts to battle something, and then retreating and going somewhere else and being at a breakneck speed that's necessary for a blockbuster film like that.

276
00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:59.425
I hope that you do have more moments of more reflection of character exploration.

277
00:24:59.545 --> 00:25:01.226
That's one of my hopes for it.

278
00:25:01.546 --> 00:25:02.367
We'll see how that pans out.

279
00:25:02.672 --> 00:25:06.734
Yeah, you've got a young family, probably still too young for the series, I'd have thought.

280
00:25:06.774 --> 00:25:22.342
But I'd be interested to see how they pitch it, because when they first started making the films, they didn't have all the books and they didn't know what the trajectory was going to be with the very dark themes that come in.

281
00:25:22.442 --> 00:25:29.105
I mean, there is some peril in the first book, but the tone is definitely...

282
00:25:31.882 --> 00:25:33.223
Weasley wizarding wheezes.

283
00:25:33.263 --> 00:25:34.724
You know, it's that kind.

284
00:25:34.804 --> 00:25:34.984
Right.

285
00:25:35.565 --> 00:25:37.687
Bright colours, funny.

286
00:25:38.908 --> 00:25:45.653
Even the sort of horribleness at home has an element of farce and funniness about it.

287
00:25:45.913 --> 00:25:47.955
I mean, it's child cruelty, isn't it?

288
00:25:47.975 --> 00:25:50.297
But it's done in like a Roald Dahl way that it's sort of...

289
00:25:51.237 --> 00:25:54.298
You go through it quite quickly and move on to the school.

290
00:25:55.578 --> 00:26:01.340
And I'm wondering if they will do the same thing of kind of aging through the palette.

291
00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:05.601
So you start with the more primary colors and go to the darker colors.

292
00:26:05.641 --> 00:26:08.922
It'll be interesting to see how they're going to handle that.

293
00:26:10.903 --> 00:26:13.204
So we can't tell yet, I don't think.

294
00:26:13.744 --> 00:26:14.424
Right.

295
00:26:14.444 --> 00:26:15.164
The primary audience.

296
00:26:15.184 --> 00:26:17.725
Some of the signs are that it's going to be a bit more...

297
00:26:19.071 --> 00:26:19.751
realistic.

298
00:26:20.551 --> 00:26:21.372
Yeah, yes, right.

299
00:26:21.472 --> 00:26:21.912
You know what I mean?

300
00:26:21.932 --> 00:26:26.693
And I think that's, yeah, and I think it's reflective, the primary audience isn't children, right?

301
00:26:26.713 --> 00:26:30.054
This is the adults who grew up with the Harry Potter books, right?

302
00:26:30.335 --> 00:26:47.400
So this is, and that's one of the challenges with something like this where you're targeting, where if the book was originally written for a younger audience, it's a movie that's, or a show that's dealing with the same subject matter, but it's being marketed to that the primary audience is the parents of children

303
00:26:48.573 --> 00:26:50.594
the parents who the kids who were.

304
00:26:50.614 --> 00:26:51.174
Yeah.

305
00:26:51.194 --> 00:26:51.434
Yeah.

306
00:26:51.494 --> 00:26:51.654
Right.

307
00:26:51.674 --> 00:27:13.583
So this, so they're like, so, so clearly, like you said, you know, with like the dealing with, you know, like maybe the color palette that that's, I think with some of the trailers, you see that they want to make sure that it does hit notes that adults will find, that they will find meaningful or resonant compared to the other, you know, landscape that they're, that they're watching, but also their need, they need to feel like that that's something that they can have their kids watch.

308
00:27:13.603 --> 00:27:14.403
That's kind of a fine line.

309
00:27:14.423 --> 00:27:14.923
It's an adult show.

310
00:27:15.324 --> 00:27:16.244
It's an adult show.

311
00:27:16.704 --> 00:27:27.317
I think it's a show typically marketed for adults who were children who grew up with this, but it has to be accessible enough for them to watch it with their children.

312
00:27:28.238 --> 00:27:31.242
And so I think it'll probably age up.

313
00:27:32.497 --> 00:27:33.258
more quickly.

314
00:27:34.699 --> 00:27:38.921
That's my guess, rather than taking a more light-hearted, whimsical approach.

315
00:27:39.382 --> 00:27:44.765
And that's the one saving grace that they could lean into for the first couple of seasons.

316
00:27:45.306 --> 00:27:46.086
And then hopefully...

317
00:27:46.126 --> 00:27:47.007
Actors are younger.

318
00:27:47.868 --> 00:27:55.833
So you need to remember, these are little young children growing up, so... And you don't want to ruin them.

319
00:27:58.475 --> 00:28:00.236
You know, it's just...

320
00:28:01.758 --> 00:28:03.139
Anyway, fingers crossed.

321
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.600
Fingers crossed they'll hit the right tone, and I don't know quite what that is.

322
00:28:07.061 --> 00:28:13.224
Okay, let's go to the third season of Rings of Power, which happens first.

323
00:28:13.244 --> 00:28:16.785
Now, just before we start talking about it, I happen to be listening.

324
00:28:16.965 --> 00:28:17.686
I've got the...

325
00:28:19.721 --> 00:28:20.722
the letters of J.R.R.

326
00:28:20.742 --> 00:28:25.526
Tolkien, read by Sam West, on my phone.

327
00:28:26.427 --> 00:28:32.912
And at night, in order to stop doomscroving, you know, that's the brain going all doom-y, I often listen to things when I wake up.

328
00:28:33.393 --> 00:28:43.221
And so I was listening to a letter from 1951 that Tolkien wrote.

329
00:28:43.261 --> 00:28:47.905
So the background to this is he was, before Lord of the Rings was published,

330
00:28:49.430 --> 00:28:57.124
he was sort of courting a Milton Waldman who was with another publishing house.

331
00:28:58.006 --> 00:28:58.547
Is that letter 131?

332
00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:00.270
Yes.

333
00:29:00.911 --> 00:29:02.491
Okay, for those following along, okay.

334
00:29:02.531 --> 00:29:02.952
Yeah, good.

335
00:29:03.232 --> 00:29:04.873
So everybody, grab your book.

336
00:29:05.413 --> 00:29:06.453
Grab your book.

337
00:29:07.194 --> 00:29:08.194
Turn to 131.

338
00:29:08.835 --> 00:29:09.835
Anyway, I'm not going to read it all.

339
00:29:10.415 --> 00:29:20.380
But it reminded me that Tolkien himself has already given a brilliant and masterful overview of the Second Age.

340
00:29:20.781 --> 00:29:29.105
It's better than the Appendices one because he's actually sort of analyzing it in a way that he doesn't in the Appendices, or even in the Silmarillion, actually.

341
00:29:32.149 --> 00:29:49.463
So he starts off by saying the next cycle, after having told him about the first, you know, the first age, the next cycle deals or would deal with the second age, but it is on earth a dark age and not very much of its history is or need be told.

342
00:29:49.483 --> 00:29:51.044
Well, there you go, everybody.

343
00:29:51.965 --> 00:29:54.227
But anyway, he analyzes the,

344
00:29:55.617 --> 00:29:58.459
what is the state of mind of the various peoples?

345
00:29:58.879 --> 00:30:18.469
He says absolutely fascinatingly about Sauron that he actually starts off, he lingers in Middle-earth very slowly, beginning with fair motives, the reorganizing and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth neglected by the gods.

346
00:30:19.610 --> 00:30:24.094
and he becomes a reincarnation of evil and a thing lusting for complete power.

347
00:30:24.414 --> 00:30:26.656
I don't think they've done that aspect to him.

348
00:30:26.676 --> 00:30:31.299
I think they pretty much joined him when he was already scheming.

349
00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:38.105
Though I suppose some of those scenes with the orcs trying to humanize, if that's the word, the orcs.

350
00:30:39.726 --> 00:30:42.589
But he also has really stern words about the elves.

351
00:30:43.509 --> 00:30:44.070
He says,

352
00:30:45.713 --> 00:30:48.654
They're lingering against counsel.

353
00:30:49.074 --> 00:30:52.135
They wanted to have their cake without eating it.

354
00:30:52.896 --> 00:31:01.759
They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of the West and yet remain on the ordinary earth with their prestige as the highest people.

355
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.340
And he talks about how they're embalming things.

356
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:07.121
Really interesting analysis of what's up with the elves.

357
00:31:07.141 --> 00:31:07.381
Yes.

358
00:31:08.361 --> 00:31:19.130
Anyway, he goes on to split those two streams that we often talk about the problem of combining, crossing the streams, isn't that a Ghostbusters thing?

359
00:31:19.691 --> 00:31:30.700
Of the Rings of Power side of it and how all that happens and the wreck of Eregion and things and then the Numenor interweaving the Numenor story.

360
00:31:32.146 --> 00:31:42.028
So if anybody is wanting to actually understand, if you need a refresher course and actually want to understand what Tolkien thinks it's all about, there's your letter.

361
00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:44.611
Yeah, that's a great, that one's so great.

362
00:31:44.631 --> 00:31:46.412
So it's just like 10,000 words.

363
00:31:46.492 --> 00:31:48.353
It's a long, it's a long letter.

364
00:31:48.373 --> 00:31:49.353
It's a very long letter.

365
00:31:50.074 --> 00:31:50.794
It's a pitch.

366
00:31:50.834 --> 00:31:51.454
It's a great pitch.

367
00:31:51.534 --> 00:31:51.775
It is.

368
00:31:51.815 --> 00:31:52.155
Yeah.

369
00:31:52.235 --> 00:31:53.736
And it boils everything down.

370
00:31:53.896 --> 00:31:56.997
And he talks about, you know, he's pitching this to a publisher.

371
00:31:57.118 --> 00:32:01.400
So I think this is a good example of the way that it's for aspiring authors.

372
00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:03.001
Don't do that.

373
00:32:03.021 --> 00:32:03.581
People who write it.

374
00:32:03.621 --> 00:32:04.221
Don't do that.

375
00:32:04.301 --> 00:32:06.523
Don't write a 10,000 word cover letter.

376
00:32:06.883 --> 00:32:08.724
This is not the first conversation.

377
00:32:09.965 --> 00:32:11.026
Right, right.

378
00:32:11.066 --> 00:32:12.947
This is my opus.

379
00:32:13.088 --> 00:32:14.549
This is what I can do for you.

380
00:32:14.569 --> 00:32:14.669
Yeah.

381
00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:19.513
And this is how that stuff fits with The Hobbit that fits with Lord of the Rings.

382
00:32:19.653 --> 00:32:30.343
But, of course, then what happened is Rainer Unwin and everybody, they took on The Lord of the Rings and off it went with the same publishing.

383
00:32:30.884 --> 00:32:33.926
But he had to stop and sort of work out what it was –

384
00:32:34.887 --> 00:32:37.528
what makes sense of his whole program.

385
00:32:37.708 --> 00:32:41.811
It's also a letter where he says the Hobbit wasn't originally part of...

386
00:32:42.911 --> 00:32:43.411
Right.

387
00:32:43.491 --> 00:32:44.192
Admitting that part.

388
00:32:44.532 --> 00:32:44.712
Yeah.

389
00:32:45.032 --> 00:32:48.754
But I'm just saying, yeah, one of the things I think that it's worth people, like, if you're writing...

390
00:32:49.130 --> 00:32:51.331
to understand your work to that same degree, right?

391
00:32:51.351 --> 00:32:52.792
You understand like, what are the core themes?

392
00:32:52.812 --> 00:32:53.253
What are the things?

393
00:32:53.273 --> 00:33:00.517
Because then you can take that and then boil that down once you have a good handle on that to your like cover letter and synopsis and one page summary and that sort of thing.

394
00:33:00.557 --> 00:33:16.647
So yeah, so he clearly, so Tolkien is somebody who clearly has thought a lot about the world that he's created and is synthesizing it and is still asking questions about certain things, which he was doing till the last day of his life, which is I think the mark of a good, engaged artist and author.

395
00:33:16.667 --> 00:33:16.867
Yeah.

396
00:33:17.767 --> 00:33:20.689
So let's go to the Amazon series.

397
00:33:21.750 --> 00:33:27.153
I know they've had a sort of shake up about where they're filming and who's on the writing team and things like that.

398
00:33:27.734 --> 00:33:43.865
And it seems that some of the changes that one can make out from the trailer and what's being said about it and the early interviews with cast members is that they are not following those proto-Hobbits anymore.

399
00:33:45.746 --> 00:33:52.031
We've got... Celeborn is coming in.

400
00:33:52.392 --> 00:33:55.815
So that's the forgotten husband of Galadriel.

401
00:33:56.655 --> 00:33:57.276
He's turned up.

402
00:33:57.736 --> 00:34:03.021
It seems quite a good way of making him turn up, though I wish they'd seeded a bit more in about him beforehand.

403
00:34:03.041 --> 00:34:03.501
But anyway...

404
00:34:04.722 --> 00:34:11.164
And I suppose my big question for you, as far as we can tell, is do you think they're fixing their story problem?

405
00:34:11.725 --> 00:34:25.849
And their story problem is that they've got the Rings of Power theme and the Numenorean theme and this sort of, how do we punch these together when we don't actually obey the long periods of time that Tolkien had?

406
00:34:26.169 --> 00:34:27.870
He was writing a history of it.

407
00:34:29.195 --> 00:34:29.975
Yeah, I hope so.

408
00:34:29.995 --> 00:34:50.323
It looks like from, again, like the teaser trailer that they've shown, that it looks like they are bringing together the Numenorean thread and the elf thread together by having Farazhan interacting with our elf, yeah, with our elf troop.

409
00:34:50.563 --> 00:34:54.345
And so I think, so hopefully they're able to bring those, yeah, bringing those, by bringing those together,

410
00:34:55.082 --> 00:34:57.274
hopefully it's worth the wait.

411
00:34:57.455 --> 00:34:59.123
But you're right that that was one of the difficulties was

412
00:35:00.342 --> 00:35:05.546
having too many, having a number of different threads that didn't seem to clearly be working together.

413
00:35:05.566 --> 00:35:10.849
And it's a lot in today's landscape to make people wait that long.

414
00:35:10.929 --> 00:35:20.775
I don't think it's not worth doing, but like for people's attention spans, you at least have to be signaling how these are going to be coming together to say that there will be a payoff.

415
00:35:20.795 --> 00:35:24.137
So I think based on the trailer, it looks like there will be joining.

416
00:35:24.177 --> 00:35:26.158
So you have Elendil and the faithful members

417
00:35:26.738 --> 00:35:32.699
Um, uh, but we did that again, it's hard to see exactly how that's fitting in.

418
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.440
You just see them in, you know, wartime, you know, armor and attire.

419
00:35:36.460 --> 00:35:40.441
Uh, it's hard to see which who's doing, what is that like a separate part?

420
00:35:40.521 --> 00:35:43.802
Because they'd kind of split off from Farazana, the main Numenorean.

421
00:35:43.842 --> 00:35:55.344
So there's still be some of that intrigue, but it looks like we're at least bringing two of those streams that are kind of separate before they're trying to bring those together so that it's kind of a more coherent, I think, single, uh,

422
00:35:56.236 --> 00:36:01.518
single narrative that you're going to be following in terms of the Numenor and the Elvish part.

423
00:36:01.598 --> 00:36:12.363
Now, the Gandalf and the East, the Rune and the Dwarves, those are still kind of seeming separate, but at least anchored with Sauron.

424
00:36:12.743 --> 00:36:17.926
And you see the introduction of the men who are under the sway of the ring, right?

425
00:36:17.986 --> 00:36:21.067
These Nazganol, these proto-Nazgal.

426
00:36:21.407 --> 00:36:23.768
The future is grim.

427
00:36:24.388 --> 00:36:34.991
So of the new cast, the things that stand out for me is a really good choice, which is Jamie Campbell Bower.

428
00:36:35.432 --> 00:36:37.652
If you Google him, he already looks like an elf.

429
00:36:37.972 --> 00:36:42.954
I mean, in fact, he looks like a high elf as opposed to...

430
00:36:45.388 --> 00:36:47.909
Anyway, good, very elven.

431
00:36:48.469 --> 00:36:49.390
He's going to be fine.

432
00:36:49.470 --> 00:36:59.912
And I think he's an interesting actor and he'll do a good job of giving, because of course you're up against Galadriel, who's the senior elf.

433
00:37:00.252 --> 00:37:03.113
So anyway, I think he's going to hold his weight.

434
00:37:03.993 --> 00:37:09.455
The cast, the new cast that I find odd is Simon Pegg doing the voice of the Bower Elb.

435
00:37:10.758 --> 00:37:18.143
Now, Simon Pegg, some of you may remember him from the spoof Cornetto films.

436
00:37:18.663 --> 00:37:20.944
He's known in the UK as a sort of comedian.

437
00:37:21.485 --> 00:37:22.065
Yeah, yeah.

438
00:37:22.620 --> 00:37:26.282
But he was also Scotty in the reboot of Star Trek.

439
00:37:27.323 --> 00:37:32.546
And he's also, of course, been in Mission Impossible in a more sort of serious role.

440
00:37:32.646 --> 00:37:35.969
So he has range, but it just seems odd.

441
00:37:36.509 --> 00:37:39.071
Also having a, I mean, good luck to him.

442
00:37:39.671 --> 00:37:45.074
But a talking Balrog, which he does, they do talk in, I think, the Silmarillion.

443
00:37:45.134 --> 00:37:46.195
I think there were a few lines.

444
00:37:46.535 --> 00:37:48.437
But it just seems, how is that going to work?

445
00:37:48.457 --> 00:37:48.557
Yeah.

446
00:37:49.277 --> 00:37:50.278
Yeah, what do you think?

447
00:37:50.998 --> 00:37:57.362
Something which is because the Balrogs on the sort of spirituality aspect are equal to the Maya.

448
00:37:57.443 --> 00:37:58.503
So they're like Gandalf.

449
00:37:58.984 --> 00:38:07.149
So whether or not actually this Balrog is imagined as something more human-like.

450
00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:07.869
Yeah.

451
00:38:07.930 --> 00:38:09.511
He's only the voice, so probably not.

452
00:38:09.971 --> 00:38:11.712
Anyway, that's going to be a challenge.

453
00:38:12.553 --> 00:38:13.193
Yeah, it is.

454
00:38:13.213 --> 00:38:15.695
And I had the same reaction as they had from my...

455
00:38:16.602 --> 00:38:19.324
experience with Simon Pegg is primarily a comedic actor.

456
00:38:19.344 --> 00:38:26.069
And even in Mission Impossible, he was there as part of the comedic relief for a thriller.

457
00:38:26.910 --> 00:38:28.231
But yeah, so it's interesting.

458
00:38:28.251 --> 00:38:31.834
And I don't have anything against a Balrog talking, necessarily.

459
00:38:31.854 --> 00:38:36.157
It isn't really sardonic, wisecracking, something.

460
00:38:36.677 --> 00:38:37.017
Right.

461
00:38:37.117 --> 00:38:40.838
Is it, yeah, is it a used car salesman Balrog, right?

462
00:38:40.858 --> 00:38:44.439
Is it fast-talking, you know, New York, like, yeah.

463
00:38:44.479 --> 00:38:44.959
Is it Cockney?

464
00:38:44.979 --> 00:38:46.119
Is he going to have a Cockney accent?

465
00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:58.862
We want like a big, like, overpowering Balrog with a strong... Well, actually, I've said they can't do that, but they've used, like, Welsh for the, I forget now, it's Irish for L's and Welsh for...

466
00:38:59.902 --> 00:39:03.283
Anyway, basically the British accents have been distributed.

467
00:39:03.303 --> 00:39:05.344
So maybe that's really cockney for the ballard.

468
00:39:05.364 --> 00:39:06.004
Is that what you want?

469
00:39:06.024 --> 00:39:08.625
Yeah, you want a chimney sweep who's also a ballard.

470
00:39:08.665 --> 00:39:09.965
All right, guys, I'm here.

471
00:39:10.265 --> 00:39:11.546
Yeah.

472
00:39:12.986 --> 00:39:14.907
But I think that the connection you made, I think, is interesting.

473
00:39:14.947 --> 00:39:15.767
I think it makes an argument.

474
00:39:15.807 --> 00:39:21.909
I don't think there's, yeah, like you said, I don't think there's anything in the Legendarium that says that ballards can't speak.

475
00:39:22.349 --> 00:39:23.669
And actually do speak.

476
00:39:23.709 --> 00:39:25.970
I think there's a confrontation where they do speak.

477
00:39:27.212 --> 00:39:28.412
So, yeah, which I think is fine.

478
00:39:28.432 --> 00:39:30.053
And I think if...

479
00:39:30.193 --> 00:39:31.573
In the same way as Dark and Spake.

480
00:39:32.533 --> 00:39:33.473
Yes, yeah, exactly.

481
00:39:33.513 --> 00:39:49.997
And so with Balrogs being Maya, being this, you know, kind of just below the Balrogs, the Balrogs being kind of like the lead pantheon, the gods, and then the Maya being kind of like just kind of like a step below them, which is Gandalf is one of, right, the...

482
00:39:51.398 --> 00:40:13.094
Saruman, Sauron and Balrogs are all part of that so to have Sauron kind of in collaboration with or trying to win over a Balrog Yeah, I can see this is where the cockney really works you can imagine him like a gang leader sitting in his face and saying, what's your best offer?

483
00:40:13.334 --> 00:40:14.295
What's your best offer?

484
00:40:14.415 --> 00:40:19.478
Yes, right, a Victorian yes, it's like your Victorian pocket

485
00:40:20.319 --> 00:40:21.780
Right, yes, yeah, exactly.

486
00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:29.503
But yeah, that's interesting, treating them as if, would a Balrog, how would a Balrog react to Sauron?

487
00:40:29.523 --> 00:40:30.824
So this is one of the challenges, I think, with Sauron.

488
00:40:30.844 --> 00:40:35.586
We had Sauron interacting with elves, with humans, with Numenor in the first season.

489
00:40:35.606 --> 00:40:38.608
You have him interacting with elves and seeing that.

490
00:40:38.688 --> 00:40:39.848
And now you have him with orcs.

491
00:40:42.600 --> 00:40:43.621
and with a Balrog.

492
00:40:43.641 --> 00:40:58.898
So how does he then interact with other evils that he's now... We saw in the beginning of season two where he was murdered because he couldn't get along with the orcs and the forces of evil.

493
00:40:59.158 --> 00:41:00.400
So now, how does he...

494
00:41:00.860 --> 00:41:01.681
It's a management problem.

495
00:41:01.701 --> 00:41:03.303
So now he has to actually become...

496
00:41:06.506 --> 00:41:12.672
not just like chairman of the board, he has to be somebody that can gain the respect, trust, confidence of other evils.

497
00:41:12.732 --> 00:41:18.959
And so how does an evil convince other evils that have different agendas?

498
00:41:18.979 --> 00:41:21.542
So that's something that I think could be interesting is exploring

499
00:41:22.162 --> 00:41:28.864
Sauron, we've seen him interacting with the elves and their philosophy, humans and their philosophy and weakness, strength and weaknesses, preying on their weaknesses.

500
00:41:29.264 --> 00:41:37.827
How is he going to do that with other powerful, like the Balrog, who is clearly massive in power and scope.

501
00:41:38.067 --> 00:41:42.688
So how does he bring the Balrog on board to his project?

502
00:41:44.089 --> 00:41:45.489
I think it could be interesting.

503
00:41:45.629 --> 00:41:46.189
I hope it is.

504
00:41:46.649 --> 00:41:47.029
I hope it is.

505
00:41:47.250 --> 00:41:48.030
Yeah, I mean...

506
00:41:49.350 --> 00:41:52.511
I just, I might end up rooting for the Balrog.

507
00:41:52.891 --> 00:41:53.852
I can feel that happening.

508
00:41:54.132 --> 00:42:11.438
But one of the things that losing the Hobbit type creatures, halfling creatures, is that you no longer have the potential, not that I ever really felt they represented us, but what they do in Lord of the Rings, it's the view of these great events from the little people.

509
00:42:12.498 --> 00:42:21.144
And one of the problems, I think, from a storytelling point of view is that the Rings of Power doesn't have that as a reliable running through it.

510
00:42:21.184 --> 00:42:27.028
And that's a real difficulty for the writers to find a relatable level.

511
00:42:28.829 --> 00:42:30.069
They've got excellent actors.

512
00:42:30.089 --> 00:42:45.533
I mean, since the last season, Robert Aramayo as Elrond, you know, the young Elrond, he has since won a BAFTA for another role in a fantastic film about somebody with Tourette's syndrome.

513
00:42:45.853 --> 00:42:48.794
Completely different, completely different role indeed.

514
00:42:50.919 --> 00:43:04.084
So they have these great resources, but I think their storytelling is hampered by the scope that they're trying to embrace.

515
00:43:05.064 --> 00:43:12.326
But one of the interviews I saw with the cast, they were talking about it being Sauron's season in a sense.

516
00:43:14.267 --> 00:43:14.827
Interesting.

517
00:43:14.927 --> 00:43:16.528
So if we spend a lot of time with him,

518
00:43:19.132 --> 00:43:21.413
are we going to be seduced by the dark side?

519
00:43:22.634 --> 00:43:23.394
I don't know.

520
00:43:23.574 --> 00:43:25.815
Because we don't relate to Sauron, do we?

521
00:43:25.835 --> 00:43:26.815
Because he's evil.

522
00:43:27.375 --> 00:43:30.396
I mean, questions after questions after questions.

523
00:43:30.456 --> 00:43:45.161
And I really think there's a massive storytelling problem in bringing any of these other Tolkien material to forward because Tolkien works really well with the...

524
00:43:45.902 --> 00:44:02.456
the key cast members and the hobbits where you see because that perspective gives you that sense of awe and wonder and beauty and experience of Middle-earth whereas if with the characters who are the heroes who are the

525
00:44:04.458 --> 00:44:11.122
you know, the elves who have lived forever and the kings and the queens who are at the height of their powers.

526
00:44:11.142 --> 00:44:12.963
Because Numenor is like a rival.

527
00:44:13.003 --> 00:44:19.887
It's like, you look at how Tolkien describes it, Sauron is impressed by Numenor.

528
00:44:21.007 --> 00:44:23.289
So I think there is this problem about who...

529
00:44:24.293 --> 00:44:26.254
who is, who is telling us this story?

530
00:44:26.314 --> 00:44:27.435
Where are we?

531
00:44:27.856 --> 00:44:29.777
That's what I think I've always struggled with.

532
00:44:30.638 --> 00:44:40.084
Um, as much as I, I really want it to work and I hope they found some good route through the material, but it's just tricky.

533
00:44:40.465 --> 00:44:40.745
Yeah.

534
00:44:41.545 --> 00:44:41.866
Okay.

535
00:44:41.906 --> 00:44:42.406
Moving on.

536
00:44:42.426 --> 00:44:44.567
Um, that, I think that's November, that one.

537
00:44:44.888 --> 00:44:47.169
So we've got Potter at Christmas and this is November.

538
00:44:48.050 --> 00:44:51.212
Um, so I really hope they've cracked it this time.

539
00:44:52.113 --> 00:44:52.213
Um,

540
00:44:53.952 --> 00:45:13.670
how about other fantasy news we both have books either out or on the way um jacob tell us about you've got this because you have this role in the board game world fantasy board game extensions and things like that you've just done something really interesting tell us about your project yeah

541
00:45:14.907 --> 00:45:37.437
those are watching on youtube we're actually about to see it i'm gonna see it yeah so this is uh the book here it's called quest of wonders uh and illuminators lore book so this is um so i work for yes so disney so disney disney lorcona is the um name of the game so disney lorcona trading card game um and behind trading card games one of the kind of

542
00:45:38.681 --> 00:45:41.305
foundations for a training card game is a narrative, right?

543
00:45:41.325 --> 00:45:43.649
So it's a reason of what's holding all of these cards together.

544
00:45:43.669 --> 00:45:44.390
You're playing, you're

545
00:45:45.215 --> 00:45:49.218
And coming into the secondary world and experiencing it through card playing.

546
00:45:49.479 --> 00:45:55.364
What's interesting with storytelling and cards and card games is cards are randomized, right?

547
00:45:55.384 --> 00:45:57.125
You're shuffling them and you're playing.

548
00:45:57.145 --> 00:46:00.708
You're not going to be playing cards in a particular sequence.

549
00:46:00.728 --> 00:46:06.213
So you have to tell stories in kind of an asynchronous, you know, kind of nonlinear way.

550
00:46:06.293 --> 00:46:07.914
So they're told through the card art.

551
00:46:08.254 --> 00:46:10.957
You have to make sure that the themes are all kind of.

552
00:46:11.577 --> 00:46:12.658
coherent, consistent.

553
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.181
There's little bits of stories that are being told on each of these cards.

554
00:46:16.481 --> 00:46:21.025
There's flavor text, a quote or something at the bottom that might put a piece of the story together.

555
00:46:21.486 --> 00:46:28.592
And it has to be kind of, you're more invoking a theme of a story, kind of like a general plot points

556
00:46:29.333 --> 00:46:33.134
because they're going to be experienced differently every time somebody plays.

557
00:46:33.574 --> 00:46:47.437
So it's a different mode of storytelling, somewhat closer to video games, like branching narratives, choose your own adventures, where there's different possible ways and stories still have to make sense, depending on how you're connecting, how you're following the paths.

558
00:46:47.517 --> 00:46:49.698
But this was, you know, and...

559
00:46:50.743 --> 00:46:56.528
a chance to tell a more traditional in some ways sense of a story that's, that's being set.

560
00:46:56.588 --> 00:47:03.975
It's set in the world itself, but rather than just kind of like a straightforward novel, um, it's a in-world artifact.

561
00:47:04.055 --> 00:47:15.486
So, uh, in the book itself, you have, it's, it's presented without any, you know, we have a slip case where you can handle the marketing and, you know, your ISBN numbers and, um,

562
00:47:16.447 --> 00:47:17.908
and all the legal information.

563
00:47:17.988 --> 00:47:24.593
And then the book itself, once you get the book itself, it's supposed to be like an in-world, like a book that you could pull off the shelf from the world itself.

564
00:47:25.393 --> 00:47:31.078
And so it's kind of a diary that contains images and characters.

565
00:47:31.618 --> 00:47:33.460
It's kind of mirroring in some way

566
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:40.245
gameplay kind of thematically, but taking that and turning it into a story, it does deal with...

567
00:47:40.505 --> 00:47:52.495
So there's a journal as well as you're following somebody's notes in the margins that's trying to piece together, solve the mystery of whose book this is, why they found it, why the person hid it in the first place.

568
00:47:52.515 --> 00:47:53.656
So there's a mystery aspect.

569
00:47:54.196 --> 00:47:59.380
But one of the central parts of this is Disney characters are part of the journey.

570
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:00.321
So it's a world where...

571
00:48:00.821 --> 00:48:09.167
where these were kind of variants of Disney characters are joining people from our world who come to the secondary world on an adventure.

572
00:48:09.227 --> 00:48:11.168
So anyway, so it's fun.

573
00:48:11.188 --> 00:48:12.790
I had a lot of fun putting it together.

574
00:48:14.010 --> 00:48:21.095
And there was certainly a different experience with development, production, and also the promotion period.

575
00:48:22.316 --> 00:48:31.584
working with a Disney licensed product than a independently owned as an author, being the sole owner of the idea.

576
00:48:31.604 --> 00:48:33.045
So it's been fascinating.

577
00:48:33.085 --> 00:48:34.647
It's been fun collaborating.

578
00:48:34.667 --> 00:48:37.589
One of the benefits has been collaborating with other people, with artists.

579
00:48:37.889 --> 00:48:41.753
It's a richly illustrated book as well with the book designers and things.

580
00:48:42.133 --> 00:48:48.939
So it's really kind of a piece of art as well as a story that ties into a larger world that

581
00:48:49.873 --> 00:48:52.155
needs to be fully consistent and coherent.

582
00:48:52.175 --> 00:48:58.259
So I understand Tolkien's, what he went through and having to make sure that each pieces are fitting together.

583
00:48:58.279 --> 00:49:09.727
And so when you've had, you know, 12 different sets of cards come out before this, 13 now, to make sure that it's completely consistent, coherent, that everything hangs together

584
00:49:10.567 --> 00:49:16.350
is a challenge, but there are ways to, I think, to do some really interesting things there storytelling-wise.

585
00:49:16.390 --> 00:49:18.151
So yeah, it's been fun.

586
00:49:18.171 --> 00:49:25.035
It's been great to talk with people about it who've read it and engage with folks and hopefully can talk with more people about it.

587
00:49:25.215 --> 00:49:27.897
It just came out within the past few weeks.

588
00:49:28.657 --> 00:49:35.563
It's available in, will be available in the United States, largely in game stores, like local game stores.

589
00:49:36.524 --> 00:49:42.208
But then also in Europe, it's also translated into German and French.

590
00:49:42.388 --> 00:49:47.693
So it should be available there in more traditional bookstores as well.

591
00:49:47.873 --> 00:49:49.855
So I've been happy with that.

592
00:49:50.335 --> 00:49:53.598
Yeah, it's an interesting part of writing because...

593
00:49:54.874 --> 00:49:59.695
Quite a lot of us do something like this during the course of our career.

594
00:50:00.115 --> 00:50:07.837
So for me, I've written books that are in part of much longer, like reading schemes where there's a longer character arc.

595
00:50:08.377 --> 00:50:09.457
And you have no idea.

596
00:50:09.477 --> 00:50:10.757
It's been running for years.

597
00:50:10.857 --> 00:50:12.938
And you come in and they say, can you write this book?

598
00:50:13.618 --> 00:50:17.319
And they tell you, this is kind of like the, here are the characters.

599
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:18.999
This is where they kind of start.

600
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:22.240
And this is where we kind of need them to finish.

601
00:50:22.580 --> 00:50:23.180
And you can't.

602
00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:29.844
kill somebody off or do anything drastic, you've got to sort of take them through it within the rules of that world.

603
00:50:31.445 --> 00:50:39.270
And of course, if you are writing for television or something like that, you might well be joining an existing, like,

604
00:50:40.931 --> 00:50:45.693
Star Trek or some kind of soap, you know.

605
00:50:46.214 --> 00:50:51.957
There's already loads of stuff out there and they will have a serious Bible and you have to work within that.

606
00:50:51.977 --> 00:50:56.159
It's a skill that lots of writers have to do at some point.

607
00:50:57.611 --> 00:51:01.194
Okay, so my book isn't out yet.

608
00:51:01.334 --> 00:51:01.654
It's out.

609
00:51:01.754 --> 00:51:03.475
Actually, I've got the publication date.

610
00:51:03.495 --> 00:51:04.776
It's the 31st of December.

611
00:51:04.977 --> 00:51:08.379
So it's meant for January, that means.

612
00:51:08.779 --> 00:51:11.681
So the stage I'm at is we've decided the title.

613
00:51:12.702 --> 00:51:13.803
It's always a good point, isn't it?

614
00:51:14.223 --> 00:51:17.346
I think last time we talked about this, we were sort of mulling the title.

615
00:51:17.386 --> 00:51:19.707
And it's called History of Trees and Castle.

616
00:51:21.088 --> 00:51:25.312
And I've got not the final cover, but I've got pretty much...

617
00:51:26.512 --> 00:51:27.913
close to the final cover art.

618
00:51:27.953 --> 00:51:30.414
This is a black and white version at the moment.

619
00:51:30.434 --> 00:51:34.335
Because I'm supposed to be getting it like today.

620
00:51:34.915 --> 00:51:38.036
And then there'll be a big announcement on the 20th.

621
00:51:38.397 --> 00:51:40.397
Well, big, you know, an announcement.

622
00:51:41.218 --> 00:51:44.139
But we're doing things like getting the interior artwork.

623
00:51:44.299 --> 00:51:47.040
So character art, maps, maps.

624
00:51:48.040 --> 00:51:48.921
All that stuff.

625
00:51:48.941 --> 00:51:52.865
And in the background, I've been drawing maps and sending them off.

626
00:51:52.925 --> 00:52:00.313
I've been giving notes about what kind of characters these characters could be.

627
00:52:00.553 --> 00:52:05.338
So to give a sense of diversity amongst the characters, those sorts of things.

628
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:18.404
And then at this point, because my editor and I, the book is done, and we're now talking about book two, but this book, I've been handed over to the marketing team.

629
00:52:19.445 --> 00:52:23.167
And what that means is suddenly people start saying, can you please send us...

630
00:52:23.967 --> 00:52:27.550
An author photo, portrait for this lot, landscape for this lot.

631
00:52:28.151 --> 00:52:33.375
And then can you do a 60 second video for these people and a two minute one over here?

632
00:52:33.915 --> 00:52:41.021
So I was trying to do something a bit more entertaining than here I am a boring author talking about.

633
00:52:41.061 --> 00:52:41.382
Right.

634
00:52:42.162 --> 00:53:06.857
um because it has a sort of traitor's game feel to it i got myself a a cloak and a mask because rather than do the cloak my characters wear like masks um to hide who they are animal masks uh and i asked permission of the uh the local vicar's wife and said can i just go into the church because i wanted something i can't go to a castle um

635
00:53:07.117 --> 00:53:19.188
I wanted something with an old stone behind me, not with religious artifacts, but there's a bit in the church that I knew where it's got an ancient, ancient thousand-year-old door and stone.

636
00:53:19.208 --> 00:53:21.050
I thought, yeah, that's my thing.

637
00:53:21.070 --> 00:53:27.516
So I did a bit of filming yesterday and then spliced it together and sent it off.

638
00:53:27.536 --> 00:53:29.277
And we're talking about...

639
00:53:30.520 --> 00:53:37.503
podcasts and interviews and festivals and bookshops and school events, all that kind of stuff.

640
00:53:37.543 --> 00:53:50.729
So this in a way is where your little project starts to expand and you think, how can I convey this world in any way for 10-year-old children?

641
00:53:50.749 --> 00:53:50.869
Right.

642
00:53:52.290 --> 00:54:04.015
On a Friday afternoon, you know, in, I don't know, Birmingham or somewhere, you have to work out what is it that actually is going to be fun to switch children on to reading rather than switching them off.

643
00:54:04.235 --> 00:54:05.736
So that's the phase we're in.

644
00:54:06.116 --> 00:54:07.837
And the book will come out.

645
00:54:08.597 --> 00:54:14.940
It's being sent out in proofs to, you know, industry and other authors to get quotes and all that.

646
00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:26.807
And then when the actual book comes out, the marketing, the going out on the road to publicity tour type thing happens in January.

647
00:54:27.567 --> 00:54:27.867
Gotcha.

648
00:54:28.147 --> 00:54:29.928
Possibly into February as well.

649
00:54:30.509 --> 00:54:31.850
So it'll be a busy period.

650
00:54:32.910 --> 00:54:34.611
So exciting.

651
00:54:34.811 --> 00:54:37.193
But I'm also just starting to start writing book two.

652
00:54:38.616 --> 00:54:39.397
That's fantastic.

653
00:54:39.517 --> 00:54:40.958
You have to sort of, this is the weird thing.

654
00:54:40.978 --> 00:54:47.482
When you've got a book done, you actually are writing the other one whilst talking about the first one.

655
00:54:47.502 --> 00:54:49.103
You have to keep thinking, which world am I in?

656
00:54:49.143 --> 00:54:49.504
Which one?

657
00:54:49.524 --> 00:54:51.525
Yeah, you don't want to reveal.

658
00:54:51.705 --> 00:54:52.706
Yeah, that's interesting.

659
00:54:52.726 --> 00:54:59.190
Yeah, and that's a fun, and it is, and that's something that I hadn't done before was the promotional type things.

660
00:54:59.210 --> 00:55:04.634
We had a series of readings and signings at a Disney, a large Disney convention.

661
00:55:05.274 --> 00:55:27.901
um a couple months ago it's kind of a big target audience there so doing like three or four of those a day where you're like doing readings and like answering questions and talking then iterating on that you kind of like figure out like okay this works this doesn't work yeah it's like sound like comedian with your yeah no exactly so you're kind of reading the room yeah i know i think what it has done is like help me uh like like with told we talked bringing it back to tolkien's

662
00:55:29.094 --> 00:55:35.795
there to the publisher to try to kind of like, what's the essence of this story?

663
00:55:35.855 --> 00:55:42.016
What is like, what are the things that, and not just because you've been living with the book for so long and writing in it, what actually is engaging to other people?

664
00:55:42.036 --> 00:55:46.117
That's where you can kind of finally get it out in the wild and figure, okay, so what's resonating?

665
00:55:46.177 --> 00:55:46.817
What's working?

666
00:55:46.877 --> 00:55:47.857
What piques people's interest?

667
00:55:47.877 --> 00:55:48.437
What doesn't?

668
00:55:48.837 --> 00:55:54.138
What was something that for me was, I thought, incredible and I loved other people's kind of, didn't care as much about it.

669
00:55:54.658 --> 00:55:57.459
But then like really kind of testing out, finding different parts of it and then,

670
00:55:58.124 --> 00:56:02.168
working that into the next iteration, the next time you're doing those.

671
00:56:02.529 --> 00:56:07.474
And then with answering those questions, I think that's really smart.

672
00:56:07.554 --> 00:56:10.136
It's not just about you as an author.

673
00:56:10.657 --> 00:56:11.878
It's about the other people.

674
00:56:11.898 --> 00:56:15.882
So how do you make this engaging for other people to invite them into the world?

675
00:56:15.942 --> 00:56:17.284
Because you're not the selling point.

676
00:56:17.664 --> 00:56:17.965
No.

677
00:56:18.025 --> 00:56:19.006
Unless you're Stephen King.

678
00:56:19.226 --> 00:56:20.167
It's the story itself.

679
00:56:20.207 --> 00:56:26.654
So how do you allow the story to shine in a way that people are enticed and want to enter into that world?

680
00:56:27.054 --> 00:56:28.536
And it's worth thinking about.

681
00:56:28.556 --> 00:56:30.438
That's even worth thinking about at the very beginning.

682
00:56:30.819 --> 00:56:33.722
If you can bring that kind of mentality to the beginning of the writing process...

683
00:56:34.062 --> 00:56:43.912
When you're like, okay, what is going to be drawing people in and having that as kind of a North Star for what is exciting than that you're going to be, I feel like far more likely to bring them in rather than after the fact.

684
00:56:43.992 --> 00:56:46.274
Okay, I wrote this whole 70,000 words.

685
00:56:46.615 --> 00:56:48.336
There's got to be something in there that's a hook.

686
00:56:48.457 --> 00:56:49.698
And then trying to fish for it.

687
00:56:50.138 --> 00:56:57.181
something that's doing that, having that those sort of things, the compelling ideas, the plot lines, that sort of thing at the beginning, what's going to connect, I think is helpful.

688
00:56:57.201 --> 00:57:12.948
And then this is helpful for kind of like re reinforcing that maybe helping me see things that now, as I write further projects, I'm definitely going to be wanting to take some of those lessons and, and coming up with those ideas, articulating those earlier in the process to then help shape the entire work.

689
00:57:12.968 --> 00:57:14.749
So yeah, it's been it's been fun.

690
00:57:14.769 --> 00:57:17.850
And I'm glad that you're having a that yours is coming up here.

691
00:57:18.270 --> 00:57:18.730
Yeah.

692
00:57:19.511 --> 00:57:21.812
The other thing is choosing which bit to read.

693
00:57:22.573 --> 00:57:25.354
That is difficult.

694
00:57:26.315 --> 00:57:26.615
Yeah.

695
00:57:26.635 --> 00:57:27.035
Yeah.

696
00:57:27.535 --> 00:57:27.815
Anyway.

697
00:57:29.216 --> 00:57:30.397
There's a whole, I think, yeah.

698
00:57:30.417 --> 00:57:30.517
Yeah.

699
00:57:32.016 --> 00:57:32.956
But I understand.

700
00:57:33.277 --> 00:57:34.217
Yeah.

701
00:57:34.237 --> 00:57:40.122
You want something that will make people, something that works on the page might not work in a room.

702
00:57:40.302 --> 00:57:43.524
Yeah, because it's a performance, and it has to be kind of self-contained.

703
00:57:44.885 --> 00:57:50.770
Giving some little recap of something, setting up context, but it has to stand alone as a performance.

704
00:57:51.350 --> 00:57:52.631
And if it doesn't land...

705
00:57:52.971 --> 00:57:57.193
then you're going to have to find another passage quickly for the next one.

706
00:57:57.774 --> 00:58:02.216
So aside from obviously, you know, our books are the main event.

707
00:58:02.936 --> 00:58:03.837
No, no.

708
00:58:03.857 --> 00:58:05.397
Let's talk about other fantasy news.

709
00:58:05.438 --> 00:58:09.099
You were saying that there's an update about Brandon Sanderson.

710
00:58:10.240 --> 00:58:10.460
Yeah.

711
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:15.363
So again, like as an author, you know, who for him, he's been...

712
00:58:16.608 --> 00:58:18.509
He has an audience.

713
00:58:18.529 --> 00:58:22.310
So Brandon Sanders is a best-selling author, clearly has an audience.

714
00:58:22.390 --> 00:58:31.392
He's been very transparent about his writing process, and he provides weekly updates on percentage completion for his different projects.

715
00:58:32.052 --> 00:58:37.754
And so now that some of his work, Cosmere is kind of his legendarium,

716
00:58:38.414 --> 00:58:40.756
where he's setting all of his major works in.

717
00:58:41.657 --> 00:58:44.719
Now, he's working on a screenplay for one of the books.

718
00:58:44.739 --> 00:58:49.282
It's kind of the first in this age particular corner of his universe, Mistborn.

719
00:58:49.962 --> 00:58:51.123
He's writing the script for it.

720
00:58:52.784 --> 00:58:58.408
And so he's been giving updates on, and this is a script for a film version.

721
00:58:58.508 --> 00:58:59.229
Apple picked up.

722
00:58:59.870 --> 00:59:10.082
One of his series, his way of keeping the series, that one's going to be a serialized television series, whereas the Mistborn books are going to be films.

723
00:59:10.342 --> 00:59:16.510
So the first one can be a trilogy following the trilogy of the first books in this progressive series.

724
00:59:17.490 --> 00:59:20.912
And so he's providing updates on here's how far it is.

725
00:59:21.232 --> 00:59:24.694
And he's sharing what's difficult, what's his fun, you know, opportunities.

726
00:59:24.714 --> 00:59:28.375
So it's been interesting listening to an author.

727
00:59:28.695 --> 00:59:38.300
Usually we don't get that kind of transparency with the creation of screenplays and things, especially if it's a anticipated series that already has a fan base, right?

728
00:59:38.360 --> 00:59:42.542
So that's been really interesting seeing an author who's primarily...

729
00:59:43.202 --> 00:59:52.770
doing novels and then transitioning, kind of doing the transition, like the storytelling differences for screenplays and then working with the larger...

730
00:59:54.388 --> 00:59:59.432
complex of producing a work for TV and screen.

731
01:00:00.272 --> 01:00:16.845
So anyway, that's been interesting, kind of seeing that play out in real time, getting an idea for the difficulties of challenges and opportunities of reimagining your project for a different medium, and what that's like kind of in real time.

732
01:00:17.345 --> 01:00:21.491
Yeah, I know you said he's obviously got a huge following and I've read a few of his.

733
01:00:21.551 --> 01:00:23.574
I'm not a follower, but I've read a few of his books.

734
01:00:24.055 --> 01:00:33.129
It'd be interesting to see, I think the big challenge is can you increase that audience by doing the screenplay or do you just play to the same level?

735
01:00:34.331 --> 01:00:34.531
Right.

736
01:00:34.731 --> 01:00:37.032
If it's massive enough, it's on because you catch.

737
01:00:37.492 --> 01:00:38.832
Yeah, which may be fine.

738
01:00:39.392 --> 01:00:43.853
But I think I would really enjoy seeing something which increase the appeal.

739
01:00:43.933 --> 01:00:47.914
Something like the Wheel of Time series, for example, which was big in many ways.

740
01:00:48.334 --> 01:00:53.995
I don't think it really moved the needle on the public perception and popularity of the Wheel of Time.

741
01:00:54.015 --> 01:00:55.035
Or not much.

742
01:00:55.055 --> 01:00:57.476
So it would be interesting.

743
01:00:57.496 --> 01:00:58.556
I hope he's able to do that.

744
01:00:58.576 --> 01:00:59.656
I'd be looking forward to that.

745
01:01:00.036 --> 01:01:04.057
But presumably if he's on the screenplay stage, it's a few years off.

746
01:01:04.865 --> 01:01:05.445
Yes, right.

747
01:01:05.785 --> 01:01:06.045
Yeah.

748
01:01:06.065 --> 01:01:06.506
It is, yeah.

749
01:01:06.566 --> 01:01:13.388
Okay, Jacob, thank you so much for joining me for a big catch-up, and we'll touch base again when there is some more fantasy news.

750
01:01:14.129 --> 01:01:17.650
I was looking out to see if there's any of the news about Greta Gerwig and Narnia.

751
01:01:17.690 --> 01:01:19.030
Nothing's coming out at the moment.

752
01:01:19.310 --> 01:01:19.451
Right.

753
01:01:19.831 --> 01:01:25.273
But they must be thinking about heading into the publicity phase, but we'll see.

754
01:01:26.293 --> 01:01:40.960
um so there's a lot happening oh and of course there's the anti-circus lord of the rings film and other films being made so there will be more things happening more to talk about let's talk about thank you very much thank you everybody for listening

755
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.882
Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast.

756
01:01:49.603 --> 01:01:52.386
Brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.

757
01:01:53.026 --> 01:01:56.789
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758
01:01:57.490 --> 01:02:04.436
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759
01:02:05.137 --> 01:02:10.502
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