Stargazy Pies And Imperial Stories - Part 2

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.380 --> 00:00:10.830Yeah, I think the thing which I've taken away from it is a sense of love and2 00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:15.510 fellowship between these palace servants who have given up a conventional life 3 00:00:15.570 --> 00:00:19.580 to serve the emperor and the emperor himself. Um, 4 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.460 and it's, they've, they've been the person who dresses him, 5 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:26.020 the person who guards him, that kind of thing, 6 00:00:26.360 --> 00:00:29.220 the person who writes his letters, um, and it's, they've, 7 00:00:29.220 --> 00:00:34.140 they've made this own little community and a hu huge amount of humor in it as 8 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:35.620 well, because you can get the perspective, 9 00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:39.370 even though it's all from Cliff's point of view, 10 00:00:39.630 --> 00:00:43.650 you do understand their perspective on him because he's self aware enough to 11 00:00:43.650 --> 00:00:46.610 know when they're sort of manipulating him into a, 12 00:00:46.610 --> 00:00:51.290 yet more ridiculous outfit for some ceremony or something. Yeah, 13 00:00:51.310 --> 00:00:54.850 that's absolutely lovely. So, uh, you've answered the question as your, 14 00:00:55.270 --> 00:00:59.320 in this one, you were character led, but do you swap your, um, 15 00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:03.640 technique depending on what sort of genre you've decided to write in, 16 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.080 in your extended world? Would you, in another one, for example, 17 00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:09.080 plotted out more entirely. 18 00:01:10.780 --> 00:01:14.560To a certain degree in general, I'm a character led writer. And, um,19 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:20.270 even with like the Starkeys E pie and the greening and dark books are more plot 20 00:01:20.530 --> 00:01:25.470 driven. Um, but even there, I tend to kind of focus on the character more. 21 00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:30.270 I tend to be a writer into, I write into the dark, um, which is to say, I, 22 00:01:30.310 --> 00:01:32.950 I I'm an exploratory writer. Um, as I said, 23 00:01:32.950 --> 00:01:36.100 I usually know kind of where I want the story to end, 24 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:41.380 and I know how it fits into my overarching kind of, uh, world building, 25 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.860 but I leave a lot of it up to, to just figuring it out as I go along. 26 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:50.660 And I find that I find that very fun. I enjoy that process. Um, yes, 27 00:01:50.780 --> 00:01:53.170 I would say I'm normal character, character led. 28 00:01:54.510 --> 00:01:55.650So do you, I mean, the,29 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:01.210 arguably the sort of very special thing about fantasy and science fiction is 30 00:02:01.210 --> 00:02:04.450 that you do your own well world building though, of course, 31 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:08.130 in historical fiction, you're also building a world in a sense, but anyway, 32 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:11.440 it's clearly more of a well building task. Do you have any, um, 33 00:02:11.510 --> 00:02:15.720 tips for people who are wanting to write their own fantasy, um, 34 00:02:16.750 --> 00:02:19.210 how to organize or approach well building? 35 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:22.730Well, I wouldn't say I'm very organized about it.36 00:02:22.730 --> 00:02:24.890 People are forever asking me if I have maps and things like that. 37 00:02:24.890 --> 00:02:25.690 And I'm kind of like, well, no, 38 00:02:25.690 --> 00:02:28.610 I have sort of sketches that I've done on the back of a piece of an envelope 39 00:02:28.610 --> 00:02:31.040 kind of thing. I'm not, I'm not very organized. Um, 40 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:36.040 I don't have a binder of all the useful measurements and stuff like that, which, 41 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.120 uh, I probably could do with, um, 42 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.760 it's one of those things I keep thinking I should go back and like make an 43 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:44.280 actual, make more notes for myself. I keep a lot of it in my head, 44 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:49.190 but from that point of view, one thing I do find is, as I said, 45 00:02:49.230 --> 00:02:53.510 I try and draw from like less obvious sources. 46 00:02:54.130 --> 00:02:57.550 And for me that's often, um, I read a lot of, 47 00:02:57.690 --> 00:02:59.240 of sort of micros histories, 48 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:04.000 I guess you could say about specific things and try and build out from there. 49 00:03:04.140 --> 00:03:07.840 That's one element. So, you know, you read a history of oh, 50 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.720 garden design or costumes, or, um, 51 00:03:13.600 --> 00:03:17.750 I dunno, just looking at my bookshelves here, even something like, um, 52 00:03:18.690 --> 00:03:22.990 top or, you know, the history of the teapots or something like that. And like, 53 00:03:22.990 --> 00:03:26.350 they sound very silly, but, and very, very, very precise. But at the same time, 54 00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:29.710 if you kind of think about, well, where did they come from? Who builds those? 55 00:03:29.930 --> 00:03:32.390 You know, give your characters slightly different things to do, 56 00:03:32.730 --> 00:03:35.110 cuz that's more fun too. Like, you know, like some, you know, 57 00:03:35.110 --> 00:03:37.900 where's the cloth coming from? Where is the food coming from? 58 00:03:37.900 --> 00:03:42.060 Where's the water coming? How is it being cleaned or not cleaned? You know, 59 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:45.820 what effects does that have? Where's the waste going? I once, um, 60 00:03:46.420 --> 00:03:51.340 <laugh> once went to the sewer museum in Paris and that is ever after made me 61 00:03:51.580 --> 00:03:55.570 question this, this thing about like, where is the water purification system? 62 00:03:55.570 --> 00:03:58.050 How is that working? You know, that could be working by magic. 63 00:03:58.050 --> 00:04:02.330 That's how it's working on Zuni than, um, in other places it's, it's not, 64 00:04:02.590 --> 00:04:05.930 you know, it's much more traditional, like, uh, you know, um, 65 00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:11.650 sort of refu and rubbish rubbish, but that matters. So that's one element I do. 66 00:04:11.670 --> 00:04:15.440 And the other part that I find is if I've made a mistake or something that 67 00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:18.960 seemed like, you know, if you're like, oh, in that book, I said this. 68 00:04:18.960 --> 00:04:20.760 And then in this book I said the other thing, and they, 69 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:23.280 those seem to directly contradict each other. And you know, 70 00:04:23.280 --> 00:04:24.320 if it's a work in progress, 71 00:04:24.340 --> 00:04:27.640 the logical thing is to fix the one that's a work in progress. 72 00:04:27.700 --> 00:04:31.910 But I often find that if you stop and say to yourself, no, wait a moment. 73 00:04:32.050 --> 00:04:35.670 How can those both be true? You know, what can I do to make those both work? 74 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:40.550 Is that because person a misunderstood it or person B 75 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:44.950 understands it better or there's something bigger that those are both kind of 76 00:04:44.990 --> 00:04:47.870 elements of, or, you know, like that kind of thing. 77 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:51.820 I find that adds a real depth and nuance to the world because like, 78 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.550 if I I'm one of those people that I find if I do too much, like, 79 00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:01.790 um, too much like front of brain, world building, 80 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:05.550 it becomes a little too smooth and there's not like a lot of the nooks and 81 00:05:05.550 --> 00:05:06.470 crannies in it for me. 82 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:09.380 Whereas I find if you do kind of the back end world building, 83 00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:14.220 as you go and try and let it grow out 84 00:05:14.220 --> 00:05:19.100 logically out of kind of something unusual that it becomes much richer. 85 00:05:19.100 --> 00:05:22.820 So for me, that's something I enjoy and I try really hard to visualize, um, 86 00:05:22.840 --> 00:05:26.780 places. I'm not always great at that. I'm better with, um, gardens. 87 00:05:26.780 --> 00:05:30.610 That's a kind of a hobby of mine gardening. And so I really think about the, 88 00:05:30.750 --> 00:05:35.730 the like ecology of a place and what that might feel like and look up 89 00:05:35.730 --> 00:05:39.440 that kind of stuff. So I guess for world building, if you make a mistake, 90 00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:42.560 it can be an opportunity, um, to make it much richer. 91 00:05:43.710 --> 00:05:45.640Yeah. Oh, that's really interesting.92 00:05:45.760 --> 00:05:48.550 I haven't heard anyone say it like that actually. Um, 93 00:05:49.010 --> 00:05:53.070 so how was your journey to publishing? What, what route have you taken? 94 00:05:54.440 --> 00:05:55.850Well, I decided, um,95 00:05:56.990 --> 00:06:01.040 decided I was going to do kind of the indie publishing side largely because I 96 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:04.880 wanted to write these interconnected stories and I wanted to be in control of 97 00:06:04.880 --> 00:06:06.120 what I was writing and when, 98 00:06:06.540 --> 00:06:11.400 and when I kind of really became serious about writing was when that it was just 99 00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:15.240 after the kind of first flush of that in the kind of, you know, 100 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.950 2012 was really when it kind of started to really pick up. 101 00:06:17.970 --> 00:06:20.030 And I had a friend who was much more, um, 102 00:06:20.520 --> 00:06:23.830 aware of how self-publishing and indie publishing was going. 103 00:06:24.290 --> 00:06:26.510 And we'd spend a lot of time talking about it at that point. 104 00:06:26.650 --> 00:06:30.190 And I thought to myself, because I wasn't writing conventional stories, 105 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:33.510 cuz I like these ones that are like around the corners of the epic quest and 106 00:06:33.510 --> 00:06:35.740 things like that, that I thought, you know, 107 00:06:37.580 --> 00:06:39.200 that's really something I want to do. 108 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.760 I don't want somebody to tell me that that's not like a going to sell because 109 00:06:42.760 --> 00:06:45.320 it's not a conventional story, you know? And, um, 110 00:06:45.320 --> 00:06:48.080 which is a real concern cuz of course they're trying to, 111 00:06:48.080 --> 00:06:50.360 there are businesses and they're trying to make money back as well. 112 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.040 Whereas if I was willing to do it myself, I could, you know, 113 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:55.630 if I have something that nobody likes because it's a very strange book, 114 00:06:55.630 --> 00:06:59.990 then that's okay, that's mine. So for me it was that. And then I've just spent, 115 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:01.520 you know, 116 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:06.160 I probably spent the last six or seven years working on building up my, um, 117 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:10.960 my works. And um, for me, 118 00:07:10.960 --> 00:07:12.430 what I did was I, 119 00:07:12.510 --> 00:07:17.270 I kind of decided to take the approach that my stories are interconnected and my 120 00:07:17.280 --> 00:07:21.230 style is fairly consistent. Um, my, or I guess my, my voice, 121 00:07:21.290 --> 00:07:24.590 my authorial voice is fairly consistent across, across my books, 122 00:07:24.700 --> 00:07:28.190 even when they're in somewhat different genres. And I thought to myself, 123 00:07:28.190 --> 00:07:29.830 you know, if, if somebody likes one of my books, 124 00:07:29.850 --> 00:07:32.460 they're largely gonna like most of them or all of them, 125 00:07:32.460 --> 00:07:33.780 they're gonna go and read the other ones. 126 00:07:33.780 --> 00:07:36.980 And so my general plan was basically to just keep writing them until I got to 127 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:39.180 some sort of hopefully, um, 128 00:07:39.510 --> 00:07:43.780 level where there were enough that and enough readers coming in that, 129 00:07:44.320 --> 00:07:47.570 um, people would be, you know, 130 00:07:47.770 --> 00:07:50.440 enjoying finding the others and that's worked, I am going, 131 00:07:50.440 --> 00:07:54.760 full-time writing this week. So I'm pretty pleased with that. Thank you. 132 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:56.973 So I basically. 133 00:07:58.980 --> 00:08:02.720So how do you, um, manage with the editing and all that kind of stuff?134 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:06.560 Have you got a, a team of beta readers behind, you know. 135 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:11.550I'm a one, one reader kind of person? Um,136 00:08:12.230 --> 00:08:15.110 I like standing, I do have, 137 00:08:15.230 --> 00:08:19.670 I do have a couple people that other author friends, particularly, um, 138 00:08:19.810 --> 00:08:22.950 and we kind of trade reading and talking about plots and, 139 00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:25.830 and kind of craft level things. And then I, um, 140 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:30.980 have somebody to do kind of copy editing of some form once we 141 00:08:30.980 --> 00:08:31.700 get to that point. Yeah. 142 00:08:31.700 --> 00:08:36.140 I do layout in the cover design myself <laugh> so I've been working on that and 143 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.100 um, that's something I may well outsource in future, 144 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.500 but I enjoy it and I enjoy the, the kind of, that process of it too. So yeah. 145 00:08:43.640 --> 00:08:48.210 So for me, um, yeah, so that's how I do it basically. 146 00:08:50.150 --> 00:08:53.370So what next for you? Are you, um,147 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:57.240 remaining in your extensive world? Are you, where are you going? 148 00:08:58.160 --> 00:08:58.993I am remaining in my.149 00:08:59.710 --> 00:09:00.543Somewhere else.150 00:09:02.020 --> 00:09:03.880Um, well actually I'm writing a,151 00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:07.840 I've been working on a sequel to the hands of the emperor for the last couple of 152 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.040 years. And this is, I'm kind of moving to focusing on that, um, over the summer. 153 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:16.910 So I'm hoping that will be out in probably late October, early November is, 154 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:20.430 is the goal with that one. It's gonna be another big honking book. 155 00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:23.990 So I'm not giving an exact date until it's a little closer to completion. It's, 156 00:09:24.020 --> 00:09:27.190 it's more than halfway done right now, but, um, you never know the, 157 00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:30.190 the kind of the final throws every once in a while you write something and you 158 00:09:30.190 --> 00:09:32.460 realize the story's gone way off to a different direction, 159 00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:35.060 that's much better and you have to throw out a whole bunch of it in order to 160 00:09:35.060 --> 00:09:39.980 make that work. So that could still happen. And, um, so I'm working on that. 161 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.900 The re the book I just had coming out, come out last week is called, uh, 162 00:09:43.900 --> 00:09:48.140 the red outable Prama pool, which is, um, kind of the second in a, 163 00:09:48.680 --> 00:09:52.290 in a new series, um, about the red company. 164 00:09:52.990 --> 00:09:54.290 And I'll be working on that. 165 00:09:54.290 --> 00:09:57.690 And those should be another greening and dart later this year, 166 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:00.290 beginning of next year as well. So keep on going with those ones. 167 00:10:00.390 --> 00:10:02.050 The greening and dart series is at six, 168 00:10:02.050 --> 00:10:04.610 and I think they'll probably be 12 by the end time that that one's done. 169 00:10:04.670 --> 00:10:07.650 So just sort of poke along with those. I'm one of the, 170 00:10:07.650 --> 00:10:11.080 I don't like writing the same character point of view back to back. 171 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:15.960 I find it much better to switch to a new character. And so I tend to, 172 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:17.560 to skip around a little bit like that. 173 00:10:19.630 --> 00:10:22.840Well, put a link to your, uh, website in the show notes,174 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:25.160 so people can come and find all these books and, uh, 175 00:10:25.300 --> 00:10:29.030 decide which one they're going to start with. So, um, 176 00:10:29.580 --> 00:10:33.750 star GZ pie for people who don't know is actually a real dish that you would 177 00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:38.270 find a traditional dish from. I think Cornal, uh, in fact, and it's, um, 178 00:10:39.270 --> 00:10:41.750 a pie where it is the pastry is laid. 179 00:10:41.890 --> 00:10:45.550 So the fish and head and tail poke out as though it's sort of breaking through 180 00:10:45.550 --> 00:10:49.500 from the crust. So in our podcast, 181 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.220 we always end up with where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place for 182 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:56.780 something. And I thought I would ask you, um, 183 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:02.140 for where in all the fantasy worlds that you've seen on television and films or 184 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:03.420 read about in books, 185 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:08.450 where do you think has the best sort of speciality dishes that, uh, 186 00:11:08.830 --> 00:11:09.890 you know, you'd like to sample. 187 00:11:11.260 --> 00:11:14.830Well, surely we all want to eat the meal that Billbo produces for the,188 00:11:15.170 --> 00:11:19.990 for the dwarves, right? I I've made CD cake as a result of that particular, um, 189 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:23.780 encounter that one's always been the one that, those stories and, um, 190 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:26.340 some of the ones in the Narnia books too, to be honest, 191 00:11:26.410 --> 00:11:30.180 I've always loved the food descriptions in, in both of those, those books. 192 00:11:30.410 --> 00:11:32.940 Otherwise, I don't know, like, 193 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:36.100 I feel like in some ways those are really high points in terms of food 194 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.900 descriptions. Um, you know, it's, 195 00:11:39.010 --> 00:11:43.810 it's like that meal that Shasta gets given in the horse and his 196 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:48.450 boy, um, is, you know, like that he is the first time he's ever had half of, 197 00:11:49.150 --> 00:11:50.010 you know, and like, you know, 198 00:11:50.010 --> 00:11:52.650 the description of the wine and all that kind of stuff, but yeah, 199 00:11:52.790 --> 00:11:55.240 and bill those thing, and then I've also Al you know, the, 200 00:11:55.260 --> 00:11:56.920 the picnic and the wind and the willows, 201 00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:59.200 those are the classic kind of British ones. And I, I don't know, 202 00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:02.200 I'm not sure that there's been a lot more that, that kind of peak over those. 203 00:12:02.780 --> 00:12:03.600 But, um, I, 204 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.640 I was reflecting on this not long ago and thinking that I really needed to up 205 00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:10.840 my, um, food descriptions, something kind of work on that a little bit more, 206 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.830 really have some sort of great feasts that are like, 207 00:12:14.050 --> 00:12:16.990 but not necessarily like spectacular banquets, 208 00:12:16.990 --> 00:12:19.870 but just really delightful dishes. Um. 209 00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:23.150Yeah. And they can be used for comic effect as well. I, for me,210 00:12:23.210 --> 00:12:26.390 the one I was going to pick is comes in the film galaxy quest. 211 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:29.310 Have you ever seen that? It's one of my favorite films that. 212 00:12:29.310 --> 00:12:31.860Is very funny one, the bit where they're all giving, where they're giving them,213 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:33.100 what are theoretically all their, 214 00:12:33.100 --> 00:12:37.460 like FA their regional specialties for the characters they are. 215 00:12:37.570 --> 00:12:41.470 That is such a funny movie. I really enjoy that. So I like this. 216 00:12:42.410 --> 00:12:45.030For those of you hadn't seen it. What happens there is, uh,217 00:12:45.030 --> 00:12:49.980 an alien culture has taken a television sci-fi series as being 218 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:50.813 historical. 219 00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:56.180 So when the characters are taken by this culture to try and help them 220 00:12:56.310 --> 00:13:00.660 solve a sort of bad problem, they've got, they've built everything for real. 221 00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:05.180 And this is all very well for the human characters who are given, I know, 222 00:13:05.540 --> 00:13:09.770 burgers and French fries, whatever. Um, but poor old Alan Rickman, uh, 223 00:13:09.790 --> 00:13:12.170 his character, Dr. Lazarus is given this, 224 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.650 this sort of soup tour of life bugs, 225 00:13:17.940 --> 00:13:19.290 which crawling out, 226 00:13:19.310 --> 00:13:22.690 and he's supposed to eat this because on the program that was supposed to be 227 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:27.480 his, uh, his food. It's just a, and of course, nobody did. 228 00:13:28.540 --> 00:13:33.200 Sardon better than Alan Rickman, uh, much missed. 229 00:13:34.270 --> 00:13:39.040 Yeah. So that's my pick Victoria, thank you so much for, uh, joining us. 230 00:13:39.140 --> 00:13:43.440 And it's a delight to find somebody who has taken a lot of her inspirations from 231 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.790 the inkling writers. And from, of course, we, uh, 232 00:13:46.790 --> 00:13:49.190 we also mentioned briefly Dorothy L Sayers, 233 00:13:49.250 --> 00:13:53.710 but you've said that she's another person who, that you've really enjoyed, um, 234 00:13:53.780 --> 00:13:55.950 reading on your route to your own writing. 235 00:13:56.610 --> 00:13:59.390 So it's been wonderful to meet you and thank you very much for joining us. 236 00:13:59.980 --> 00:14:02.230Well, thank you very much. I thank you for having me. I'm,237 00:14:02.290 --> 00:14:05.100 I'm delighted you enjoy the hands of the emperor and I hope, uh, 238 00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:08.140 a few of your readers do as well. And, uh, yeah, 239 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.700 the inklings have been a huge part of my, of my formation as a, as a writer. 240 00:14:13.400 --> 00:14:16.980 And, um, in many ways I kind of keep reflecting back on them. 241 00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:19.700 Probably the green wing and dart ones are a little books are a little more 242 00:14:19.700 --> 00:14:22.010 obvious, especially as you get later on into the series, 243 00:14:22.010 --> 00:14:25.450 you'll see some much clearer kind of echoes of, 244 00:14:25.750 --> 00:14:29.650 of some of the CS Lewis and elements in particular, but overall, 245 00:14:30.390 --> 00:14:32.650 the questions that they raise and the, and 246 00:14:34.590 --> 00:14:38.250 the joy they have in description and in food and in characters, 247 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:42.360 world building is something that I've always really, really admired. 248 00:14:43.020 --> 00:14:45.840 So thank you really enjoyed getting the chance to talk to you about this. 249 00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:47.443Thank you very much.250 00:14:48.030 --> 00:14:48.863Welcome.251 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:58.680Thanks for listening to mythmakers podcast brought to you by the252 00:14:58.820 --> 00:15:03.560 Oxford center for fantasy visit Oxford center for fantasy.org 253 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:04.840 to join in the fun. 254 00:15:05.430 --> 00:15:10.110 Find out about our online courses in person stays in Oxford plus 255 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:12.510 visit our shop for great gifts. 256 00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:17.630 Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favorite podcasts 257 00:15:17.900 --> 00:15:18.510 worldwide.